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Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.07 19:55:00 - [1] Looking at the various insurance-options for my Prophecy I felt the need to do some calculations.. Imho only the basic insurance is really worth it.. Comments?
KillmAll187	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:01:00 - [2] For your calculations to really matter, you need to include the difference that youd have to make up if you were buying another prophecy at the same price. Good try tho.
Jesabellita	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:03:00 - [3] Originally by: Knoppaz Looking at the various insurance-options for my Prophecy I felt the need to do some calculations.. Imho only the basic insurance is really worth it.. Comments? Alright I'll bite....say your getting the ship at cost for 20.5 mil or there abouts. Basic insurance total loss = 10 Mil ( 9 mil over insurance payout + insurance) Premium insurance total loss about 2.5 mil isk (5 mil surplus from payout - insurance) So how is it that you figure basic is the only one worth it?
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:03:00 - [4] sooooo, 6 mill free isn't worthwhile. right. might suggest add the amount you get if you buy NO insurance, to the chart? methinks that might be more interesting. ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
Shandling	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Knoppaz Imho only the basic insurance is really worth it.. Comments? Purely percentage-wise... yep only basic is worth it. :P But the final payout (total payout after subtracting payment) is what's important. It's that much less you have to spend on your next ship. If you don't PvP, or don't expect to lose your ship, then maybe basic is good for you. :P
Brisi	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:08:00 - [6] So you're completely neglecting the fact, that insurance is basically free money? You pay some 30m for a Tier 2 BS, and get about 100m payout when it gets detroyed. 70m free Isk that you would NOT have had, had you not had insurance. Example 1: You buy your Prophecy at 25m, and just get basic insurance. Now you got 11.475m FREE Isk when it gets destroyed. Example 2: You buy your Prophecy at 25m, and but platinum insurance. Now you get 17.85m FREE Isk when it gets destroyed. Then come again and tell me what's best. Note: Did you notice the word "FREE"?
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:13:00 - [7] DOH! Noticed my mistake.. platinum cost - basic cost = 6.375.000 basic effective payout + 6.375.000 = platinum effective payout In the end it's both 17.850.000 bangs head against keyboard
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:20:00 - [8] Edited by: Knoppaz on 07/06/2006 20:22:07 Originally by: Brisi So you're completely neglecting the fact, that insurance is basically free money? You pay some 30m for a Tier 2 BS, and get about 100m payout when it gets detroyed. 70m free Isk that you would NOT have had, had you not had insurance. Example 1: You buy your Prophecy at 25m, and just get basic insurance. Now you got 11.475m FREE Isk when it gets destroyed. Example 2: You buy your Prophecy at 25m, and but platinum insurance. Now you get 17.85m FREE Isk when it gets destroyed. Then come again and tell me what's best. Note: Did you notice the word "FREE"? Nope.. the free amount is same on both.. exactly 11.475m cause you paid 6.375m more on platinum Only difference is that on Basic you have to pay those 6.375m after destruction and on Platinum you have to pay it before destruction (if your ship doesn't blow up, you'll lose those 6.375m in which case the basic insurance would have been better).
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Knoppaz Comments? Flawed mathematics and fallacies ftw Testy's Eve Blog, Updated 01/06/06 Someone sell me an Amarr Alt!
Aion Amarra	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:33:00 - [10] And people, don't forget that ships ALWAYS are 40% insured, even if you didn't buy any insurance. That means you get 10.200.000 isk even if you don't pay for the insurance at all. As you might notice that for every isk you pay on insurance, you get two additional isk back if the ship gets destroyed, or one free isk, yes, platinum IS worth it. As long as the ship actually does get destroyed. (Hint, you save money if you empty the ship, destroy it and buy a new one like one day before the insurance runs out.) Dude. ________ Capship Overhaul

Starraker	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:41:00 - [11] Originally by: Aion Amarra (Hint, you save money if you empty the ship, destroy it and buy a new one like one day before the insurance runs out.) This only works if: a) You don't self destruct b) You can buy a new ship for less then the insurance money The last part is true for nearly any BS in empire. Yay 2 mill free iskies! -Starraker
Coran Ordus	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:55:00 - [12] The problem is that you're double subtracting the cost. In the 25mil case: you buy a 25 mil ship. Insure platinum. You're now down by 7 mil. When your ship blows up, you actually get the 25 mil, not your 'effective payout' number. Now you subtract the 7 mil that you already paid, to end up with you holding 18mil in your hand. Which, not coincidently, is 7 mil more than you would have had if you just got basic. So basically when you pay X amount in insurance, you are getting 2X when your ship blows up. Which still results in a net gain of X, after you've subtracted the amount you paid so long ago! So to maximize the net gain, you want to invest as much as you can up front. (And hope your ship blows up.)
Coran Ordus	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:56:00 - [13] The problem is that you're double subtracting the cost. In the 25mil case: you buy a 25 mil ship. Insure platinum. You're now down by 7 mil. When your ship blows up, you actually get the 25 mil, not your 'effective payout' number. Now you subtract the 7 mil that you already paid, to end up with you holding 18mil in your hand. Which, not coincidently, is 7 mil more than you would have had if you just got basic. So basically when you pay X amount in insurance, you are getting 2X when your ship blows up. Which still results in a net gain of X, after you've subtracted the amount you paid so long ago! So to maximize the net gain, you want to invest as much as you can up front. (And hope your ship blows up.)
Coran Ordus	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:57:00 - [14] The problem is that you're double subtracting the cost. In the 25mil case: you buy a 25 mil ship. Insure platinum. You're now down by 7 mil. When your ship blows up, you actually get the 25 mil, not your 'effective payout' number. Now you subtract the 7 mil that you already paid, to end up with you holding 18mil in your hand. Which, not coincidently, is 7 mil more than you would have had if you just got basic. So basically when you pay X amount in insurance, you are getting 2X when your ship blows up. Which still results in a net gain of X, after you've subtracted the amount you paid so long ago! So to maximize the net gain, you want to invest as much as you can up front. (And hope your ship blows up.)
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.06.08 03:16:00 - [15] Insurance and I have a long history together. People are convinced you need it, yet I'm convinced you don't (all I do is PvP). Take the payout and subtract the premium AND the base payout, and you have the gain. Which is actually a loss mitigation not an actual gain. Between buying the ship and plat insurance, you will never get more than you paid out. Infact, selling the ship is more efficient than buying plat and blowing it up for the insurance money. So in my personal opinion. Insurance is largely pointless, I'd rather spend that on fitting the ship not to die. Click Above
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 04:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Eximius Josari ..So in my personal opinion. Insurance is largely pointless, I'd rather spend that on fitting the ship not to die. Aka invest in WCS?
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.06.08 04:49:00 - [17] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Eximius Josari ..So in my personal opinion. Insurance is largely pointless, I'd rather spend that on fitting the ship not to die. Aka invest in WCS? I have never fitted a WCS to any ship I've flown, even the ones not intended for combat. Click Above
Loki Caldaris	Posted - 2006.06.08 05:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Eximius Josari Insurance and I have a long history together. People are convinced you need it, yet I'm convinced you don't (all I do is PvP). Take the payout and subtract the premium AND the base payout, and you have the gain. Which is actually a loss mitigation not an actual gain. Between buying the ship and plat insurance, you will never get more than you paid out. Infact, selling the ship is more efficient than buying plat and blowing it up for the insurance money. So in my personal opinion. Insurance is largely pointless, I'd rather spend that on fitting the ship not to die. This is all assuming you will never lose the ship. If all you do is PvP you will lose ships. In the end, you will lose any war of attrition.
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 05:40:00 - [19] Originally by: Eximius Josari I have never fitted a WCS to any ship I've flown, even the ones not intended for combat. The thing is - if you play halfway regulary and have halfway competent opponents chances are rather high that during 3 months you will find yourself at least once warpjammed in an unwinnable situation. In the end the only thing you can use there to "fit the ship not to die" are WCS. Or, to quote "Fight Club": On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. I find the 3 month insurance period quite sufficient for that time in the EVE universe.
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Loki Caldaris Originally by: Eximius Josari Insurance and I have a long history together. People are convinced you need it, yet I'm convinced you don't (all I do is PvP). Take the payout and subtract the premium AND the base payout, and you have the gain. Which is actually a loss mitigation not an actual gain. Between buying the ship and plat insurance, you will never get more than you paid out. Infact, selling the ship is more efficient than buying plat and blowing it up for the insurance money. So in my personal opinion. Insurance is largely pointless, I'd rather spend that on fitting the ship not to die. This is all assuming you will never lose the ship. If all you do is PvP you will lose ships. In the end, you will lose any war of attrition. My ISK income is secure, but the only thing I do in Eve is PvP...and politics. I wont lose a war of attrition much faster by not having plat insurance. I dont always win, but such is life. Click Above

Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Eximius Josari I have never fitted a WCS to any ship I've flown, even the ones not intended for combat. The thing is - if you play halfway regulary and have halfway competent opponents chances are rather high that during 3 months you will find yourself at least once warpjammed in an unwinnable situation. In the end the only thing you can use there to "fit the ship not to die" are WCS. Or, to quote "Fight Club": On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. I find the 3 month insurance period quite sufficient for that time in the EVE universe. I happen to know of at least one person who has PvPed in one ship for longer than a year and only just recently lost it. He fits no WCS and often fought superior numbers. He insured his ship 4 times (which even if the first three monthes were worth it, the second is definately not worth it). He ended up losing it to a gank squad that was prepared for him. Click Above
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:20:00 - [22] Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2006 06:20:57 Originally by: Eximius Josari I happen to know of at least one person who has PvPed in one ship for longer than a year and only just recently lost it. He fits no WCS and often fought superior numbers. He insured his ship 4 times (which even if the first three monthes were worth it, the second is definately not worth it). He ended up losing it to a gank squad that was prepared for him. It really depends what ship. For example, it is considerably easier to avoid getting killed in an interceptor than in a BC or BS. For the latter all you need is to jump to system where your arrival gate is camped by an hostile force. If those have frigate pilots which are not afk you will be scrambled before you can warp out. Thats a "bad luck" situation you cannot really avoid in those ships (and even an interceptor is ****** if he jumps into an interdictor field in 0.0). Someone not loosing a ship for one year is definately a proof of good skill, but only a fool would deny luck had no influence there. Skill only gets you so far in EvE.
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2006 06:20:57 Originally by: Eximius Josari I happen to know of at least one person who has PvPed in one ship for longer than a year and only just recently lost it. He fits no WCS and often fought superior numbers. He insured his ship 4 times (which even if the first three monthes were worth it, the second is definately not worth it). He ended up losing it to a gank squad that was prepared for him. It really depends what ship. For example, it is considerably easier to avoid getting killed in an interceptor than in a BC or BS. For the latter all you need is to jump to system where your arrival gate is camped by an hostile force. If those have frigate pilots which are not afk you will be scrambled before you can warp out. Thats a "bad luck" situation you cannot really avoid in those ships (and even an interceptor is ****** if he jumps into an interdictor field in 0.0). Someone not loosing a ship for one year is definately a proof of good skill, but only a fool would deny luck had no influence there. Skill only gets you so far in EvE. He only flies a BS usually. And I'm sure luck has something to do with it. But you can't convince me insurance is worth the ISK. Click Above
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:45:00 - [24] Well, mathematically, as long as a ship does not survive for longer than 3 months on average you will have more isk at the end if you insure each new one than if you hadn't. Stuff like your regular income is totally insignificant there, insurance will save you money.
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:48:00 - [25] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/06/2006 06:52:36 OK... so, let's say a BS costs 100mil and thus platinum insurance gives 100 mil payout and basic gives 50 mil. I spend 30 mil for platinum insurance, but instead of getting back 40 mil, I get back 100 mil. As the base price is the same, that cancels out, so you are only left with: payout - insurance cost 40 - 0 = 40 100 - 30 = 70 So assuming I lose my BS within 12 weeks, I am getting 30 mil for free. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Thoris Levithar	Posted - 2006.06.08 07:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Eximius Josari But you can't convince me insurance is worth the ISK. A simple example I did before buying my BS. I started with about 80m ISK. Case 1: Uninsured battleship (say tier 1) I spend 60m ISK for the ship, so now my wallet shows 20m ISK left. If three days later the ship gets destroyed, I get the basic (non) insurance paid out (40%, so about 24m ISK), wallet now shows 20m + 24m = 44m ISK. Case 2: Insured battleship I spend 60m ISK for the ship, and 18.5m ISK for platinum insurance, wallet goes down to 1.5m ISK. Again three days later if I loose my ship: wallet now shows 64m ISK (62.5m payout from insurance). Dunno, maybe 20m ISK is nothing to you, but it sure seems worthwhile to me. Obviously in some situations it may be different, but generally I would say insurance is very worthwhile in the dangerous world of EVE. I just don't want to be the insurance company :)
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.08 09:23:00 - [27] Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/06/2006 06:52:36 OK... so, let's say a BS costs 100mil and thus platinum insurance gives 100 mil payout and basic gives 50 mil. I spend 30 mil for platinum insurance, but instead of getting back 40 mil, I get back 100 mil. As the base price is the same, that cancels out, so you are only left with: payout - insurance cost 40 - 0 = 40 100 - 30 = 70 So assuming I lose my BS within 12 weeks, I am getting 30 mil for free. Nope.. you don't get 30m free cause you already spend those 30m for the platinum insurance
Drakir Everborn	Posted - 2006.06.08 09:41:00 - [28] Knoppaz, it seems that you missed Coran Ordus post, which is quite the feat, since he triple posted... Anyway, here it is again... Please read it over and over until you understand that you are not right. This guy is actually smart. Originally by: Coran Ordus The problem is that you're double subtracting the cost. In the 25mil case: you buy a 25 mil ship. Insure platinum. You're now down by 7 mil. When your ship blows up, you actually get the 25 mil, not your 'effective payout' number. Now you subtract the 7 mil that you already paid, to end up with you holding 18mil in your hand. Which, not coincidently, is 7 mil more than you would have had if you just got basic. So basically when you pay X amount in insurance, you are getting 2X when your ship blows up. Which still results in a net gain of X, after you've subtracted the amount you paid so long ago! So to maximize the net gain, you want to invest as much as you can up front. (And hope your ship blows up.)
Heikki	Posted - 2006.06.08 09:43:00 - [29] Insurance 'efficiency' might differ between the options, but in the end it doesn't matter. For bad analogy, think it as someone trusted giving you options of a) You give him $1, he gives you $10 b) You give him $1000, he gives you $2000 Even thought a) is more 'efficient', it still makes sense to pick the latter. So, with Eve's economically stupid insurance the actually choices are just: 1) not likely to lose ship in the next 3 months -> no insurance 2) likely (>50%) to lose it -> full insurance -Lasse P.S. About the missing headline, forums seems to have a bug of losing the subject line when you use preview after editing your OP
Redsteel	Posted - 2006.06.08 09:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Knoppaz Edited by: Knoppaz on 08/06/2006 09:39:34 Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/06/2006 06:52:36 OK... so, let's say a BS costs 100mil and thus platinum insurance gives 100 mil payout and basic gives 50 mil. I spend 30 mil for platinum insurance, but instead of getting back 40 mil, I get back 100 mil. As the base price is the same, that cancels out, so you are only left with: payout - insurance cost 40 - 0 = 40 100 - 30 = 70 So assuming I lose my BS within 12 weeks, I am getting 30 mil for free. Nope.. you don't get 30m free cause you already spend those 30m for the platinum insurance (see example with real numbers above. The amount you get "for free" from platinum insurance is exactly the amount you paid more over basic insurance) you really don't get it, do you? ok then.. 40m payment for uninsured ship 100m for platinum insurance. now substract "expenses" and see what's left.. if you still insist you'll just make a fool of yourself.

Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 09:52:00 - [31] Not only that, Letifer Deus is actually substracting those 30 mils right above that comment. To make it a little clearer: 40 (basic payout) - 0 (basic insurance cost) = 40 (payout after insurance costs) 100 (platinum payout) - 30 (platinum insurance cost) = 70 (payout after insurance costs) Although I wouldn't exactly call them "30 mils free" but "30 mils less lost", it's not like you make profit when getting your ship blown up.
R Dan	Posted - 2006.06.08 09:53:00 - [32] OK if your not going to lose your ship then yes. dont insure it. if there is a chance then do! and for the platinum heres why: Buy a ship for 100 mill No insurance. get 40 mill back. loss is 60 million (-100 + 40 = -60) Buy a ship for 100 mill pay 30 mill to insure it get 100 mill back loss is 30 mill (-100 + -30 + 100 = -30) so think of it as an investment. I will save you, but make sure you bring beer - Wrangler and cAKe - Imaran I thought it was bREe, omgi'mgivingawaymodroomsecwetsftl - Cortes when come back ... bring PIE. Me like PIE. -Capsicum
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.08 10:05:00 - [33] Originally by: Redsteel you really don't get it, do you? ok then.. 40m payment for uninsured ship 100m for platinum insurance. now substract "expenses" and see what's left.. if you still insist you'll just make a fool of yourself. Besides that I may already look like a fool I'm not talking about uninsured/plat insured, but basic insured/plat insured insurance over non-insurance pays out, that's obvious, but is a plat insurance really worth it? Nope, cause the amount you pay is same for both in the end (basic and plat insurance). Plat insurance is just more convenient, but you risk to loose some money if your ship doesn't get blown up. That's why some people nuke it themself. Now give me a nerdcap already..
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.08 10:08:00 - [34] Originally by: Aramendel Not only that, Letifer Deus is actually substracting those 30 mils right above that comment. To make it a little clearer: 40 (basic payout) - 0 (basic insurance cost) = 40 (payout after insurance costs) 100 (platinum payout) - 30 (platinum insurance cost) = 70 (payout after insurance costs) Although I wouldn't exactly call them "30 mils free" but "30 mils less lost", it's not like you make profit when getting your ship blown up. Where do you get those 0 from. Basic insurance for my Proph cost 1.275.000 and not 0. I guess for a BS it costs quite a bit more..
Leshrac Shepherd	Posted - 2006.06.08 10:11:00 - [35] Originally by: Knoppaz Originally by: Aramendel Not only that, Letifer Deus is actually substracting those 30 mils right above that comment. To make it a little clearer: 40 (basic payout) - 0 (basic insurance cost) = 40 (payout after insurance costs) 100 (platinum payout) - 30 (platinum insurance cost) = 70 (payout after insurance costs) Although I wouldn't exactly call them "30 mils free" but "30 mils less lost", it's not like you make profit when getting your ship blown up. Where do you get those 0 from. Basic insurance for my Proph cost 1.275.000 and not 0. I guess for a BS it costs quite a bit more.. Following your flawed logic it is best not to insure at all, since it has the highest possible efficiency.
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.08 10:18:00 - [36] Edited by: Knoppaz on 08/06/2006 10:21:51 Originally by: Leshrac Shepherd Originally by: Knoppaz Originally by: Aramendel Not only that, Letifer Deus is actually substracting those 30 mils right above that comment. To make it a little clearer: 40 (basic payout) - 0 (basic insurance cost) = 40 (payout after insurance costs) 100 (platinum payout) - 30 (platinum insurance cost) = 70 (payout after insurance costs) Although I wouldn't exactly call them "30 mils free" but "30 mils less lost", it's not like you make profit when getting your ship blown up. Where do you get those 0 from. Basic insurance for my Proph cost 1.275.000 and not 0. I guess for a BS it costs quite a bit more.. Following your flawed logic it is best not to insure at all, since it has the highest possible efficiency. Flawed logic, eh? Where did I ever say it's best to not insure at all? I just said that basic insurance is the best option. The only flaw on my side was to first asume that basic insurance would save you money while in reality neither basic nor plat insurance saves you money -edit to make it 100% clear: over the other insurance that is. Both save you money over not insuring at all - (as I noticed in my second reply). Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe your flawed logic made you asume im completely against insurance
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 10:29:00 - [37] Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2006 10:29:57 Originally by: Knoppaz Where do you get those 0 from. Basic insurance for my Proph cost 1.275.000 and not 0. I guess for a BS it costs quite a bit more.. Badly phrased, make that "no insurance". But for all intends and means "no insurance" IS the basic insurance since you get some money back. Normally when you break something you did not insure you get nothing (aka nada, zip, zilch).
Redsteel	Posted - 2006.06.08 10:30:00 - [38] ok, short version. if you do pvp and get blown up, insure your ship at max. if you use it for whatever is not a high risk do not insure it. tbh, my combat ships last half insurance period, best scenario.
Leshrac Shepherd	Posted - 2006.06.08 10:32:00 - [39] Edited by: Leshrac Shepherd on 08/06/2006 10:33:08 Originally by: Knoppaz Where did I ever say it's best to not insure at all? Where did I say you said that? I only said that if one were to follow your reasoning, the best scenario would be never insuring.
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.08 10:42:00 - [40] Edited by: Knoppaz on 08/06/2006 10:46:55 K, time to edit the headline again. It may be misleading.. edit: looks at headline Better now?

Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 11:40:00 - [41] Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2006 11:41:07 No, not exactly. The main thing is (which you still do not get) is that platinum insurance gives you always more than basic insurance. Plantinum is always worth it. As was said before, you calculate it wrong. It's pretty easy actually: The amount of money you put into the insurance is increasing the money you get paid out by twice that amount. NO insurance still gives you 40% of the max insurance back if your ship gets destroyed. With the Prophecy numbers: No insurance: 40% of 2.550.000 -> 10.200.000 payout Basic insurance: 10.200.000 + 2* 1.275.000 -> 12.750.000 payout Standart insurance: 10.200.000 + 2 * 2.550.00 -> 15.300.000 payout ... Platinum insurance: 10.200.000 + 2* 7.650.000 -> 25.500.000 payout The "effciency" of every single insurance option over the "no insurance" is exactly the same. Should the ship get destroyed in the insurance time you get twice the insurance money back (in addition to the basic money you would get back if you wouldn't insure at all). In short: You ALWAYS got 40% of the max insurance back if your ship gets destroyed. Any additional insurance (from basic to platinum) is basically a gamble: - Should the insurance run out without the ship doing BOOM you loose the money you invested into the insurance. If basic you loose 1.275k, if platinum you loose 7.650k - Should the ship get destroyed you get on top of the 40% payout twice the invested insurance money. Half of the is getting the money back you paid for the insurance, half is the same amount in profit. You gain (AFTER you substracted the money paid for the insurance) 1.275k for basic, 7.650k for platinum.
Mathias Black	Posted - 2006.06.08 12:35:00 - [42] Knoppaz - People have already told you a few times, your math is wrong; you are subtracting the cost of the insurance twice. Here: Quote: platinum cost - basic cost = 6.375.000 basic effective payout + 6.375.000 = platinum effective payout Look at your chart. You are getting a total of 12,750,000 MORE back with the plat than with the basic. THEN you subtract the difference in cost, which gives you a net gain of 6,375,000 with the plat. Your "effective payout" column already takes into account the price of the insurance, you can't subtract the price of the insurance again if you use that column. Your "effective payout" column represents the pure "profit", more or less, that you are getting. You can subtract the profit of plat from the profit of basic to get the same number: 6,375,000. That's pure profit; you can't subtract the price of the insurance again since it's been taken into account already.
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.08 13:24:00 - [43] K, where is my nerdcap already? Aramendels last post finally gave me a clue (took long, I know ). Hey, at least I admit that I'm wrong and pretty stubborn at times
Macro Media	Posted - 2006.06.08 13:52:00 - [44] You guys have not got a clue. Imagine a Ship that costs 100 isk mineral value, and you bought it for 100 isk. no insurance gives you 40 isk back = net loss of 60 isk Plat gives you 100 isk back, but the insurance is 30 isk = 30 isk loss. All insurance is doing is minamising your loss from 60%(no Insurance) to reducing it to 30% (platinum). -- The Scammers Cookbook
Alkalja	Posted - 2006.06.09 11:57:00 - [45] Hm, cool thread - guess I understood the principle of insurance for the first time. What a pity that RL insurance companies have to make money theirselves... Agreed that platinium insurance is best when you want to insure your ship against loss. But: It totally screws up when I try to find out whether it is really sensible to blow up the ship yourself at the last day of the insurance My first thought would be that it is better to maintain the ship as usually you won't get a new ship for the money you get from insurance... BTW: How do you manage to get your profile pic near the posting? Where to activate this?
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.09 12:14:00 - [46] I can't believe people are actually arguing this stuff. Insurance is simple, and there's only one way to look at it. T1 PvP ship = Full insurance, if it lasts more than 3 months, pop it just before the insurance expires and wear less stabs. T2 ships = It doesn't matter T1 ratting/mining/mission ships = No insurance, you're not going to lose these ships, certainly you shouldn't be losing them as often as once every 3 months.
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.06.09 15:41:00 - [47] Originally by: Macro Media You guys have not got a clue. Imagine a Ship that costs 100 isk mineral value, and you bought it for 100 isk. no insurance gives you 40 isk back = net loss of 60 isk Plat gives you 100 isk back, but the insurance is 30 isk = 30 isk loss. All insurance is doing is minamising your loss from 60%(no Insurance) to reducing it to 30% (platinum). You missed the point. The OP was never suggestion using no insurance, rather he was suggesting just using the lowest level of insurance (called Basic). On the Propecy the difference in payout between the lowest teir and the top teir insurance is about 7.5 Million. The Cost to buy the top teir insurance over the lowest teir insurace is funnily enough, also about 7.5 Million ISK. Therefore buying the lowest teir insurance on the prophecy is no different from buying the platimum insurance. If you buy the lowest teir you have an extra 7.5 Million ISK in your wallet after pruchasing the insurance. However your payout is lower. If you buy the platinum insurance you get 7.5 Million extra after the destruction of your ship. theres no difference really.....you just have to choose when you want your ISK. Personally I prefer to go for Platinum in the Prophecy regardless as it is always nice getting a larger figure back after a ship loss. On the other hand in the time I spent flying the Prophecy, I could have invested that 7.5 Million ISK in market orders and made potentially more money on the deal. Is that clearer for everyone? Signature Remove, not Eve related. -ReverendM ([email protected]
Sphynx Stormlord	Posted - 2006.06.09 15:54:00 - [48] All the insurance is of the same quality, because your ship is effectivly insured at a 40% rate for free. So: Insurance % \| Cost 40% free 50% 5% 60% 10% 70% 15% ... 100% 30% When your ship blows, you get paid the free 40% plus twice the amount you paid for the insurance contract. (EG basic 40% + 2x5% = 50%, plat 40% + 2x30% = 100%) Insurance is thus good value if you expect that you have a 50% or higher chance of getting blown up in the period. And how much you spend on it, is just a matter of how much you are prepared to wager that someone is going to blow your ship up for you over the period. Sadly you are only allowed to wager 30% of your ships listed value; although if one could wager much more then there would be a lot of incentive to make a ship to get it blown up and collect the insurance.
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.09 16:41:00 - [49] Originally by: Twilight Moon On the other hand in the time I spent flying the Prophecy, I could have invested that 7.5 Million ISK in market orders and made potentially more money on the deal. In theory, but I do not think it would actually happen often in the game. Insurance is, should the ship blow up, effeciently a 200% markup. Unless you get lucky it's unlikely you would manage that with a single session of playing the market. Also, insuring takes about 5 seconds, browsing through the market is less timeeffecient
Macro Media	Posted - 2006.06.10 01:22:00 - [50] I suggest people to check their maths. Each isk of insurance returns 2 isk back. I have already said, with plat insurance, your total loss on the deal is 30%. This is because of the cost of insurance. With no insurance,yous loss on the deal is 60%. 1 third of the inbetween is what you pay in isk. the other 2 thirds are payed to you from the insurance company. -- The Scammers Cookbook

Daetlus Marconia	Posted - 2006.06.10 19:14:00 - [51] As this document actually shows: Total Payout - Cost - No insurance payout = Effective Payout Effective Payout being money that you would have never seen PERIOD had you not paid for insurance at all. In every single case you are getting 3 isk for every 1 isk you paid in insurance costs, or an effective 2 FREE isk for every 1 isk investment Join channel: "Eve University" or read here


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