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Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 16:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Helganstandt on 08/06/2006 16:26:08 If you want to make yourselves anti-pirates, at least let the rest of the eve-universe know that you're not neutral.
Oh wait, I just did for you.
The best part is there's nothing that a corp like us can do about it. We need ISS standings to make 0.0 work for us, and because they kill one of our members, I bet you anything they take away out standings because of this.
So why, one may ask, do we bring this to the public attention if we stand to lose a lot from it? Because it has to be done, and we don't want to see this happen to other corps in a similar situation to us.
I wonder what would happen if we were at war with that corp the raven pilot was in. Would ISS interfere then since they think we're "Pirating"?
For the rest of you, feel free to flame, add to the list of breaches of charter, or whatever. I've instructed my corp to not respond here, as I don't want to fuel a flame war or anything.
I've attempted to lay this out in an objective manner, but of course my own personal views reflect in this. So I understand if people question this post's authenticity. I just ask that you please look at the situation and see that by the eve-mails I've recieved that ISS has just admitted that they are indeed not neutral.
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Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 16:26:00 -
[2]
I apologize as I tried to have this solved internally, but I guess I have no choice, and would like to warn the general community about the "neutral" status of ISS.
A few notes before we get started here:
1) We have bought standings with ISS, and thus we can make Jump Clones at the ISS stations. We did this a few months ago when attempting to make a move to 0.0. One would think this is what ISS wants to happen with smaller corps.
2) We dabble in pirating on the side when we're not on contract. When pirating we abide by NBSI policy. Despite the fact that ISS does not give us updates on what new corporations are, we still check each person to make sure they are not ISS before we shoot them. I can't even begin to count the number of ISS I have let go through my bubble camps before.
3) WE DO NOT, AND NEVER HAVE PIRATED IN ISS SOVEREIGN SPACE
So anyway, a few days ago one of our members was hunting with some friends of ours in Ordat, a 0.3 security system. This system does not have an ISS Outpost, nor is even under ISS sovereignty. Our pilot ransomed a raven that was not a member of ISS. After the global agression timer dies off, he warps with the gang to a moon in Ordat.
Then, a group of ISS, specifically from The Praxis Initiative jump in and kill him, and his gang. Curious, as he also has "ISS Friendly" in nice big bold readable font in his Bio at the top.
Anyway, I figure that it's just an isolated incident where some ISS people forgot their neutrality charter. So I contact the CEO of the Praxis Initiative, and get the following response:
--------------------------------------- It is Praxis policy to assist local pilots against pirate aggression, and persecute any known pirates in our local area of operations.
~Lake Founder of The Praxis Initiative -------------------------------------- Really.....I thought ISS policy overrides corporation policy. And last I checked, in order to remain neutral as ISS says they are, killing pirates that aren't in your space isn't being neutral Guess I was wrong.
So I send the heads of ISS news of this to see if I can't get someone to admit that they breached the charter. All I get in response is a very rude evemail from ParCan stating that I have wasted everyone's time, and here's the kicker: --------------------------- ... ISS (Praxis) was working with Other Corps in a gang and your guy Ransomed a Gang Member That Pilot was in a Raven.
That pilot then warned the rest of the gang. A move i feel was totally appropriate.
When your Pilot warped in on other gang members what are we supposed to do ? Let him ransome again ?
The Iss Charter allows us to defend our ships and assetts if they believe they may be under threat. ... ------------------------------------- Oh, I get it now. And I won't even go into the glaring errors of their "research" into this incident *cough*our guy was sitting at a moon, and an ISS fleet of about 20 jumped in and killed him and his gang*cough*
So apparently, because:
a)The raven pilot ransomed was in a gang with ISS that we had no way of knowing about
b)Despite the fact that we weren't firing on ISS pilots even though there were a lot in that system that would have made WONDERFUL targets
c)Our guys bio says "ISS Friendly"
d)We have bought standings with ISS
Then we're supposed to have known that pirating in a non-ISS owned system with some ISS members in it totally gives them justification to break their neutrality.
I was blind but now I see.
Beware if you're buying standings with ISS, and godforbid like to pirate anywhere in the EVE universe. ISS are anti-pirates, which last I checked, wasn't neutral.
See, I would understand if we were pirating in ISS sovereignty (which we don't, please read above in big bold letters). In that case, fine, kill us, we deserve because we're in your space. But everywhere else isn't your space, ISS.
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Recluse Viramor
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Posted - 2006.06.08 16:30:00 -
[3]
ISS hasn't been neutral for some time afaik
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Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2006.06.08 16:31:00 -
[4]
Good post but their outposts can't function without visitors and pirates ganking everything in sight means they loose money so it makes sence for them to be anti pirate, also they are now blue with CC + CDC and probably bored.
President Huzzah Federation
Play EVE on the hard setting, join us. |
Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 16:43:00 -
[5]
I guess the point I mainly wanted to get across is that they are shooting neutrals now. It just saddens me since we thought that with ISS we could ensure a mutual "we won't kill each other" pact or something, which is why we picked the space that we did.
I wouldn't be so irritated if it wasn't for the fact that ParCan basically made up facts so that they could justify it. ________________________________
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Jor Azmeh
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Posted - 2006.06.08 16:47:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Jor Azmeh on 08/06/2006 16:47:27
Originally by: Helganstandt I guess the point I mainly wanted to get across is that they are shooting neutrals now. It just saddens me since we thought that with ISS we could ensure a mutual "we won't kill each other" pact or something, which is why we picked the space that we did.
I wouldn't be so irritated if it wasn't for the fact that ParCan basically made up facts so that they could justify it.
you tried to ransom someone they were in gang with. wtf did you expect them to do? -
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HatePeace LoveWar
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:03:00 -
[7]
The fact that u are pirating surely causes complications, and your extremley niave to think otherwise.
You say that you have let ISS through your gate camps, so i am assuming that you are pirating near where ISS operate. Isn't this in the slightest bit stupid?
You're attempt to flame ISS and bring down their reputation has only back fired and landed you looking somewhat foolish.
Carrier & Fighter Sales |
Pepperami
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:14:00 -
[8]
Originally by: HatePeace LoveWar The fact that u are pirating surely causes complications, and your extremley niave to think otherwise.
It's ISS's complications, they elect to be neutral, they elect their charter. They're not being neutral by joining gangs with non-iss corporations, and killing people outside their sovereign space.
They picked the difficult (and imo rubbish) policy of neutrality, so if they continue claim they are neutral, they need to behave like it.
[Art of War][- V -] |
El Yatta
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:16:00 -
[9]
I would just put it down as unlucky and move on. It doesn't suprise me that it was the Praxis Initiative pilots at all, as a similar incident happened with my pilots, operating on contract, NBSI (ISS being Blue, among others) in Providence. Praxis pilots fired for no reason, (no agression, unlike your pilot), and later claimed "Looked a bit like pirates to me". However, contrary to your story, I found ISS leadership very approachable and they sorted the situation out. ISS provide a very handy service for small combat corps when in 0.0, in somewhere to dock, but it doesnt change the fact that they need to get their act together as regards their membership. ---:::---
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Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:21:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Helganstandt on 08/06/2006 17:21:37
Originally by: Jor Azmeh you tried to ransom someone they were in gang with. wtf did you expect them to do?
If they didn't claim that they never shoot neutrals, yes, I would have expected that they act as they did. But how are we supposed to know who they are ganged with and who they aren't?
Also, ISS operate in a lot of places. I did mention that we don't bubble camp in ISS sovereign space at all. Their charter provides that they can shoot people pirating in systems that they have an outpost in.
But otherwise, they claim that they do not shoot neutrals, and I'm just trying to show that you can't trust that. We don't go anywhere near their outposts to do this kind of activity. Ordat seems a bit of a far reach from an "outpost" system to me.
If they want to be anti-pirates, that's fine. I just would have liked to have known before we gave them money for standings. ________________________________
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Jor Azmeh
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Helganstandt Edited by: Helganstandt on 08/06/2006 17:21:37
Originally by: Jor Azmeh you tried to ransom someone they were in gang with. wtf did you expect them to do?
If they didn't claim that they never shoot neutrals, yes, I would have expected that they act as they did. But how are we supposed to know who they are ganged with and who they aren't?
Also, ISS operate in a lot of places. I did mention that we don't bubble camp in ISS sovereign space at all. Their charter provides that they can shoot people pirating in systems that they have an outpost in.
But otherwise, they claim that they do not shoot neutrals, and I'm just trying to show that you can't trust that. We don't go anywhere near their outposts to do this kind of activity. Ordat seems a bit of a far reach from an "outpost" system to me.
If they want to be anti-pirates, that's fine. I just would have liked to have known before we gave them money for standings.
I can't, and won't speak for ISS-it's not my place at all.
However I still want to know what you expected them to do? Let the gangmate be ransomed and possibly killed? -
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Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:27:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Helganstandt on 08/06/2006 17:30:52
Originally by: Jor Azmeh
Originally by: Helganstandt Edited by: Helganstandt on 08/06/2006 17:21:37
Originally by: Jor Azmeh you tried to ransom someone they were in gang with. wtf did you expect them to do?
If they didn't claim that they never shoot neutrals, yes, I would have expected that they act as they did. But how are we supposed to know who they are ganged with and who they aren't?
Also, ISS operate in a lot of places. I did mention that we don't bubble camp in ISS sovereign space at all. Their charter provides that they can shoot people pirating in systems that they have an outpost in.
But otherwise, they claim that they do not shoot neutrals, and I'm just trying to show that you can't trust that. We don't go anywhere near their outposts to do this kind of activity. Ordat seems a bit of a far reach from an "outpost" system to me.
If they want to be anti-pirates, that's fine. I just would have liked to have known before we gave them money for standings.
I can't, and won't speak for ISS-it's not my place at all.
However I still want to know what you expected them to do? Let the gangmate be ransomed and possibly killed?
I apologize if the situation sounds confusing, but I don't think you understand what happened. Our guys had previously attempted to ransom, didn't get the ransom, and killed a raven, who was solo in a complex according to my guys. After the global agression timer had gone away, the gang my guy was in warped to a moon. After a few minutes, a fleet of about 20 ISS ships jumped in and killed him and his gang.
It's not like the raven was sitting at a belt with his ISS buddies, and my guys figured they could jump in and kill the non-ISS people.
Instead, ISS heard about the news, formed a hunting gang, tracked down my guys, and killed them. That's not neutral, and that's not protecting themselves.
edit: I do still have the logfile to prove this is the case, and have shown it to ISS seniority. They chose to ignore it, said I was wasting their time, and that the issue was closed and that they wouldn't talk to me about it anymore. ________________________________
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Shadar Ishaan
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:29:00 -
[13]
I can't comment on ISS politics (as I am unfamiliar with them) but you can easily get jump clones in NPC stations in Empire without having to "purchase standings" with an entity owning private stations.
Services like mine, or MicanG's are in my opinion much less prone to this sort of situation. Good luck in the future. Get your own set of jump clones for 15 million ISK! |
Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shadar Ishaan I can't comment on ISS politics (as I am unfamiliar with them) but you can easily get jump clones in NPC stations in Empire without having to "purchase standings" with an entity owning private stations.
Services like mine, or MicanG's are in my opinion much less prone to this sort of situation. Good luck in the future.
Actually, thanks for posting this. I will contact you later, as I wasn't aware of this. We may end up taking you up on this offer should ISS remove our standings. Brings new light to our situation for sure. ________________________________
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Lake
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:47:00 -
[15]
The Praxis Initiative maintains empire operations in the Sukanan constellation (which includes the referenced system, Ordat). As part of those operations we participate in cooperative anti-pirate activity with local corporations. This cooperation does not extend to conflicts other than simple piracy and there was no reason to believe this was anything but. Nor has that been refuted by the involved parties.
The 'standings bought', as mentioned, were not a NAP with ISS but rather the requisite standing with the ISS Marginis Outpost [ISSMO] corporation for jump clone access to stations owned by ISSMO (Marginis and Tycho). The fee paid goes to the shareholders of ISSMO.
The Praxis Initiative will of course honor any NAP reached in discussion with ISS Management, and encourage any interested party to contact ISS Management (Count') directly.
~Lake CEO and Founder of The Praxis Initiative
P.S. El Yatta - If you have any more details wrt to the situation you recall, please contact me privately in game. Any accusation of a Praxis pilot operating outside our RoE is of course something we would wish to investigate. |
Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:48:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Helganstandt I guess the point I mainly wanted to get across is that they are shooting pirates now.
Fixed that for you.
Apart from that fact that the ISS shooting pirates is logical (They shoot me too) its also fairly sad for a pirate to whine about getting killed on the forums. -----
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Originally by: Helganstandt I guess the point I mainly wanted to get across is that they are shooting pirates now.
Fixed that for you.
Apart from that fact that the ISS shooting pirates is logical (They shoot me too) its also fairly sad for a pirate to whine about getting killed on the forums.
Hey hey, that's part-time pirate.
The point isn't that he got killed and we're oh so devestated about one loss, it happens. The point is that ISS claims to be neutral, and killing pirates isn't being neutral. Especially when you're not in your space.
And Lake just admitted that. ISS really should change their charter, because right now it doesn't provide for killing pirates in systems they don't own. We wouldn't have paid for standings if it had said that, and I just feel like we wasted our money is all. ________________________________
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Raid
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Posted - 2006.06.08 17:55:00 -
[18]
If you operate anywhere near the Praxis Initiative expect them to respond to your acts of piracy.
/me pets Lake. Shhhhhhh dont listen to the ebil pirate.
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Rubberduck
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Posted - 2006.06.08 18:11:00 -
[19]
You should not be pirating in the first place. It is crimminal act, such you should expect that people handles you in that context ... as a simple crimminal
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Lilan Kahn
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Posted - 2006.06.08 18:20:00 -
[20]
so in other words since we dont own space we arnt allowed to kil pirats ?
come again?
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 18:29:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lilan Kahn so in other words since we dont own space we arnt allowed to kil pirats ?
come again?
If you want to be "neutral" no. If you guys are anti-pirates, you should say so. I'm only asking for a change in your charter if nothing else. Put a provision in there that says "we will shoot all suspected pirates if we feel like it". If you had said that, we wouldn't have given you money to use jump clones.
It's funny, as you guys don't do that in 0.0...only in low sec it appears. ________________________________
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Torshin
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Posted - 2006.06.08 18:49:00 -
[22]
Im sorry but it seems like you are not even reading what ISS members have posted in this thread. You didn't have a NAP. Your friend attacked a member of a gang and his gang responded by spanking your pirate friend around. Self-defense is neutral.
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Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 18:54:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Helganstandt on 08/06/2006 18:55:51
Originally by: Torshin Im sorry but it seems like you are not even reading what ISS members have posted in this thread. You didn't have a NAP. Your friend attacked a member of a gang and his gang responded by spanking your pirate friend around. Self-defense is neutral.
Apparently you didn't read the thread either. Our guys didn't attack ISS, they killed an unrelated SOLO raven, which ISS shouldn't be making gangs with corps if they are "neutral", and then hunted our guys after the fact.
Explain to me how that is self-defense? ________________________________
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Jor Azmeh
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Posted - 2006.06.08 18:58:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jor Azmeh on 08/06/2006 18:58:09 wait, ISS isn't allowed to gang with other corps now? -
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Lilan Kahn
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Posted - 2006.06.08 18:59:00 -
[25]
pot kettel black you died, how ever your not kos to iss at large until you start shoting us. so feel free to make jump clones and crap
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Thana Tos
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Posted - 2006.06.08 19:04:00 -
[26]
Dear Finis Lumen,
i write this as an alt due to policies but i'm an ISS pilot. The ISS charter denies this kind of act and i suggest contacting the management about this. Whatever Praxis has said doesn't matter, it is against the charter if you didn't attack them. I noticed the kill on the killboard and started wondering about it (having a previous chat with you in local and knowing we should be cool to each other). If you ask me, the anti-pirating acts of PRAX are against the charter and i'm very sad that this thread makes ISS look bad and not them.
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Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 19:05:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lilan Kahn pot kettel black you died, how ever your not kos to iss at large until you start shoting us. so feel free to make jump clones and crap
Well, I didn't die specifically. I'm speaking on behalf of one of my members.
I certainly hope it won't resort to shooting ISS to make a point. If Praxis continues to intefere with anything we do when we have not agressed, I think we'll have no choice. ________________________________
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Helganstandt
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Posted - 2006.06.08 19:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Thana Tos Dear Finis Lumen,
i write this as an alt due to policies but i'm an ISS pilot. The ISS charter denies this kind of act and i suggest contacting the management about this. Whatever Praxis has said doesn't matter, it is against the charter if you didn't attack them. I noticed the kill on the killboard and started wondering about it (having a previous chat with you in local and knowing we should be cool to each other). If you ask me, the anti-pirating acts of PRAX are against the charter and i'm very sad that this thread makes ISS look bad and not them.
The problem is I already contacted all of ISS higher management, and they told me I was just wasting their time, and the issue was closed. Thanks for the endorsement though. ________________________________
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Hunters Presence
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Posted - 2006.06.08 19:06:00 -
[29]
My interpretation is thus:
The ISS charter allows member corporations to secure their assets against pirate threats.
If you had a gate trap set up along one of our hauling routes or near our operations and I heard about you attacking a friendly in the area, I'd push you out of the system forcefully too. The charter gives me the right to defend my operations against pirates, so that's what I'd do.
Quote: Also, ISS operate in a lot of places. I did mention that we don't bubble camp in ISS sovereign space at all. Their charter provides that they can shoot people pirating in systems that they have an outpost in.
Have you actually read the charter? Please tell me where it says this because as a CEO of a member corporation I clearly need to read this. -----
This post is not endorsed by the ISS | Me! |
Solusar
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Posted - 2006.06.08 19:13:00 -
[30]
Pirateing in Amarr space? Thankyou for bringing this to my attention, standings will be adjusted accordingly. Well done prax for keeping the Sukanan constellation clear of piracy.
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