| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Helganstandt
   |
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:18:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Hunters Presence
My interpretation is thus:
The ISS charter allows member corporations to secure their assets against pirate threats.
If you had a gate trap set up along one of our hauling routes or near our operations and I heard about you attacking a friendly in the area, I'd push you out of the system forcefully too. The charter gives me the right to defend my operations against pirates, so that's what I'd do.
Have you actually read the charter? Please tell me where it says this because as a CEO of a member corporation I clearly need to read this.
I knew reading comprehension was a problem in general discussion, but I expected a bit more here.
So for the last time (hopefully, I'm sounding like a bad record now) My boys pirated someone in a complex, who was solo and WAS IN NO WAY AFFILIATED WITH ISS. Yeah, no gate camp, nothing of that sort. Just regular old belt hunting/complex hunting. They then got hunted down and killed by an ISS force 20 minutes later. I have the log file saying ISS agressed first, with no previos agressive action for 20 minutes. That to me looks like ISS engaged a party of neutrals, who killed someone that was in an unrelated corporation 20 minutes before. Is that all you guys need to say you're "securing your assets?"
ParCan made up facts about there being another "gang member" in danger. This was not the case. If it wouldn't get the thread locked, I'd be happy to post the log file.
The only thing, which we couldn't possibly have known, was that he was in a gang with some ISS people.
Also, your charter says you don't shoot neutrals. If we're pirating in an ISS system, the that constitutes a viable threat since we're in ISS sovereign space causing problems. This is what we agreed to when we gave the money for jump clones, and was explained to us by the ISS Marginis Corporation.
If we're pirating in a system that ISS just happen to be in, but have no claim over, then it is not their perogative to engage us since we're still techincally neutral until we pose a viable threat. Since we hadn't been shooting ISS, had "ISS friendly" in our bios in big font, and didn't have global agression timers, Praxis breached your charter because we were neutral. We didn't pose any sort of threat to ISS, so this was a shooting of a neutral. I don't really understand how this isn't clear.
________________________________
|
dantes inferno
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:29:00 -
[32]
well iss claim to be neutral? small not on neutrality
Quote:
neutral
not supporting or favoring either side in a war, dispute, or contest
so ganging and fighting on the behalf of non iss members is not exactly neutral now is it? as iss are supporting one side in a dispute.
_____
They were monsters. They rode across the world we knew and brough terror, and death. Where they were, life ceased. They were without mercy. They were without fear - They were MASS |
Thana Tos
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:33:00 -
[33]
Contact Count directly to set you blue, there are quite some pirate organizations on the list already, it is not automatic with the jump clone standing (NAPd corporations tend to join hostile alliances which messes up things, they still show as blue etc). I know you fully respected our charter and i still say that PRAX didn't, but that's not ISS as a whole. Many other corporations in ISS gave up the same kind of active pirate hunting when they entered ISS, however i don't think PRAX would attacked you if you showed up as blue.
|
Beringe
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:34:00 -
[34]
Shooting down pirates has nothing to do with neutrality. It's a common, reasonable practice with any entity of any import - except perhaps pirates.
In fact, *not* shooting pirates would point towards favoritism towards said scallywags, and perhaps a far deeper breach of neutral policies.
Also, you are whining. Haha.
-------------------------------------------
"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Beringe
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:36:00 -
[35]
Originally by: dantes inferno
well iss claim to be neutral? small not on neutrality
Quote:
neutral
not supporting or favoring either side in a war, dispute, or contest
so ganging and fighting on the behalf of non iss members is not exactly neutral now is it? as iss are supporting one side in a dispute.
Except the act of killing a pirate is essentially an act of upholding the law, and thus your definition still holds for ISS neutrality.
*Not* upholding law might be seen as taking sides, though.
-------------------------------------------
"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Helganstandt
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:36:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Thana Tos
Contact Count directly to set you blue, there are quite some pirate organizations on the list already, it is not automatic with the jump clone standing (NAPd corporations tend to join hostile alliances which messes up things, they still show as blue etc). I know you fully respected our charter and i still say that PRAX didn't, but that's not ISS as a whole. Many other corporations in ISS gave up the same kind of active pirate hunting when they entered ISS, however i don't think PRAX would attacked you if you showed up as blue.
Thanks, I'll give it a shot. Just wish my boy could get his money back for the lost ship and cargo. Had about 20 mil worth.
________________________________
|
Thana Tos
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:48:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Helganstandt
edit: For the time being, i'll go ahead and quit responding and it will quickly turn into a flame war I'm guessing. As usual, there's a few people who don't even know what the ISS charter is yet still choose to respond, and then your other people who just hate pirates all around and feel the need to bash the practice at every turn. I hope what I have said is clear at least, and I'll contact Count T directly to see if I can't get a better resolution than that offered by the senior officers in ISS.
Good, let's do that. We were anti-pirating too before entering ISS but now if we are in empire and need a bit of pvp, we just start npcing in the belts and wait until the pirates attack us. The results are the same (either us or the pirates dead) and we don't have to break the charter either. I really don't know why some guys can't do it the same way.
|
nutbar
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:49:00 -
[38]
Leave it to a rat to complain about being ratted. Guess it hurts when you have a taste of your own medecine eh?
Your complaints seem to point to you really only having a problem with thinking that you wasted your money by "buying standings". AFAICT you paid to dock in .0 POSes, not to save yer hide when you're out ratting.
To think that you can go and rat anywhere and not have someone and their gank buddies want to take you out is a huge oversight in what you do. Taking someone out will **** that person off - expect retaliation. Looks like you were just on the losing side since Raven buddy had a group of ISS/PRAX friends > you.
|
Karunel
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 19:55:00 -
[39]
If you are a pirate, everyone will try to kill you, what do you expect. Neutrality has got nill to do with it. Also, how does being neutral have anything to do with the ability of their members to gang with other corps members to kill some rats in 0.0?
Almost everyone in this thread has good reading comprehension I think, the problem seems to be in your quite naive assumptions... You're an eBil PiWate damnit! 
|
Whatever Goddess
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 20:45:00 -
[40]
This may have already been addressed but I CBA to read through the rest of 2 1/4 crap posts to find it.
What dismays me is that the ISS seem to have loads of free time to spend in empire looking for pirates to kill. That must have been brought on by REALLY being quite bored.....No targets anywhere.....
Wait a second. Aren't they responsible for their sov. security? You know, places like EC-P8R, KDF, etc....Some of the same places that it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find an ISS member. |
|
|
Butter Dog
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 21:32:00 -
[41]
Originally by: HatePeace LoveWar
The fact that u are pirating surely causes complications, and your extremley niave to think otherwise.
You say that you have let ISS through your gate camps, so i am assuming that you are pirating near where ISS operate. Isn't this in the slightest bit stupid?
You're attempt to flame ISS and bring down their reputation has only back fired and landed you looking somewhat foolish.
Not really, ISS operate pretty much everywhere, they are a large and de-centralised alliance.
ISS should not engage others who are not hostile to them. Its as simple as that. Its very dangerous ground because the definition of a 'pirate' isnt even clear cut. There are a lot of shades of grey.
Its a simple fact that ISS policy is, and should remain, one of neutrality. If Prax don't agree with that, and want to assist their personal friends in combat regardless of ISS standings, then they are in the wrong.
------------------
I'm a 'liberated PvPer' |
Butter Dog
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 21:37:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Lake
The Praxis Initiative maintains empire operations in the Sukanan constellation (which includes the referenced system, Ordat). As part of those operations we participate in cooperative anti-pirate activity with local corporations. This cooperation does not extend to conflicts other than simple piracy and there was no reason to believe this was anything but. Nor has that been refuted by the involved parties.
The 'standings bought', as mentioned, were not a NAP with ISS but rather the requisite standing with the ISS Marginis Outpost [ISSMO] corporation for jump clone access to stations owned by ISSMO (Marginis and Tycho). The fee paid goes to the shareholders of ISSMO.
The Praxis Initiative will of course honor any NAP reached in discussion with ISS Management, and encourage any interested party to contact ISS Management (Count') directly.
~Lake
CEO and Founder of The Praxis Initiative
P.S. El Yatta - If you have any more details wrt to the situation you recall, please contact me privately in game. Any accusation of a Praxis pilot operating outside our RoE is of course something we would wish to investigate.
With much respect, Lake, you are missing the point on this one.
ISS are neutral by default - its all there in black and white in the charter. You can't simply shoot someone who is neutral to ISS because they pirated someone outside ISS.
For better or worse, its how ISS operate.
------------------
I'm a 'liberated PvPer' |
Jakslo
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 21:41:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Pepperami
Originally by: HatePeace LoveWar
The fact that u are pirating surely causes complications, and your extremley niave to think otherwise.
It's ISS's complications, they elect to be neutral, they elect their charter. They're not being neutral by joining gangs with non-iss corporations, and killing people outside their sovereign space.
They picked the difficult (and imo rubbish) policy of neutrality, so if they continue claim they are neutral, they need to behave like it.
Neutral? LOL who do you think is funding MC's war against BB? If BB goes down you aint seen nothing yet from ISS.
|
Butter Dog
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 21:44:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jakslo
Neutral? LOL who do you think is funding MC's war against BB? If BB goes down you aint seen nothing yet from ISS.
You are frankly devoid of any remnant of intelligence if you think ISS is behind that contract. They are not even in competition with each other - you clearly don't have the first clue what you're talking about, or why they are such vastly different organisations with no reason to fight each other (even via mercenaries).
------------------
I'm a 'liberated PvPer' |
Marcus Grisbius
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 22:08:00 -
[45]
ISS is politically neutral. This means that they are not involved in wars and conflicts between parties. This however does not keep them from being anti-pirate. ISS has a fairly long KoS list but that doesn't preclude them from being politically neutral.
If you were pirating in a system, ISS pilots are still able to assist with protecting assets nearby whether their own or friendly. Like was stated before, jump clone standings do not equal NAP status. I don't fault the Praxis guys for shooting you since you were pirating some of their friends.
And if you're really going to quote their charter, reading it for yourself before referencing it would be good. 
Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn |
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 22:11:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Helganstandt
The point is that ISS claims to be neutral, and killing pirates isn't being neutral.
Killing pirates hardly makes them any less neutral. Thats like saying NPCing makes them less neutral too. Or living in the South/North/East. Or hell, flying ships of a certain race makes them less neutral.
Pirates are enemies of everyone, including the ISS.
-----
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Eade Amtyre
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 22:17:00 -
[47]
Seems to me that in order to protect your assets - ie miners.. you have to remove/discourage pirate activity within the systems where they operate.
Waiting until the pirates target you is a sure way to lose your miners.
When you fly the pirate flag you are declaring yourself as an enemy of everyone.
|
Crux Australis
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 22:37:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Pirates are enemies of everyone, including the ISS.
Fine, why did ISS sell them standings if they are kos to ISS by nature, since they are pirates?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Originally by: Frezik
Detaurus isn't a person. It's a state of mind.
|
Raem Civrie
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 22:43:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Karunel
If you are a pirate, everyone will try to kill you, what do you expect. Neutrality has got nill to do with it. Also, how does being neutral have anything to do with the ability of their members to gang with other corps members to kill some rats in 0.0?
Almost everyone in this thread has good reading comprehension I think, the problem seems to be in your quite naive assumptions... You're an eBil PiWate damnit!
Yeah, but one man's pirate and griefer is another man's lovable friend that comes around with beer on sundays and possibly shags the wife in the bathroom, thereby solving the problem of said man having to leave his spot in front of the TV during live broadcasts from World Cup in Germany.
It's all... perception.
----
My Omber is second to none |
Beringe
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 23:29:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Crux Australis
Fine, why did ISS sell them standings if they are kos to ISS by nature, since they are pirates?
Because they didn't know they were pirates? After all, the OP is a self-proclaimed "part-time pirate" (whatever the hell that means).
-------------------------------------------
"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
|
|
Nooey
|
Posted - 2006.06.08 23:39:00 -
[51]
Is it just me, or does ISS redefine the term "neutral" on an almost monthly basis?
If you are killing pirates for no other reason than they're being pirates, you're choosing a side. How is that so hard for everyone to see?
-
Let me describe a truly neutral Corporation/Alliance.
The rules of engagement are dead simple.
1. If it's not red, you don't shoot it.
2. If it's red, then it shot one of you, so shoot it.
3. If it shoots you, you shoot it right back.
4. If it looks like it's about to become red, get ready to shoot it.
That is neutrality.
It sometimes means watching other neutrals die right in front of you and not stepping in. A gruesome reality to be sure, but...
That is neutrality.
Coincidentally, it is also the most positive approach you can take to 0.0 politics. If you sheperd n00bs day in day out via anti-piracy, they'll never really be safe, they'll never really be free, and they'll never really learn. They'll just be sheep who can't function without a sheperd, they'll just be weak leeches.
ISS has chosen the side of the Sheperd. I think that's pretty obvious to anyone with at least one eye open.
____ |
Megadon
|
Posted - 2006.06.09 00:20:00 -
[52]
Moral of the story...
Don't **** ANYWHERE near where you eat.
You're just asking for a nasty infection and you got one.
Go **** somewhere further away from the kitchen to avoid things like that in the future.
Common sense.
|
Mazzarin
|
Posted - 2006.06.09 00:31:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Helganstandt
Edited by: Helganstandt on 08/06/2006 19:42:32
Edited by: Helganstandt on 08/06/2006 19:42:03
Edited by: Helganstandt on 08/06/2006 19:39:55
Thanks, I'll give it a shot. Just wish my boy could get his money back for the lost ship and cargo. Had about 20 mil worth.
LOL, you have to be kidding me. What about the guy you ransomed? Can he get his money back too?
What goes around comes around. Your "boy" got what he deserved.
|
Texas JackHammer
|
Posted - 2006.06.09 00:33:00 -
[54]
it's not really that difficult, your guy (as claimed by you) was pirating, failed to ransom and then destroyed a Raven. A pirating hunting gang was formed and destroyed the pirate and his gang. It was done in an area protected by a corp that happens to be part of the ISS.
It's not like he was innocent of pirating and they blew him up. It's not like he was just flying down the pipe and got hit, he was actively doing it right then, even be it that he is a part-time pirate. I can safely say, few people would call an active pirate neutral at that point in time. As for "we bought standings for clone jumping" and "We let ISS ships go from our gate bubbles" that's probably a wise decision unless you feel like throwing the isk for the standings to be thrown away.
Don't actively pirate in systems that are patrolled and protected by ISS corps if you're wanting to avoid this in the future :)
|
Crypt
|
Posted - 2006.06.09 01:52:00 -
[55]
Part time pirate = Pirate when shooting/ganking someone else, then all of a sudden becoming an innocent miner when someone shoots back at you.
|
Nooey
|
Posted - 2006.06.09 02:13:00 -
[56]
Guys, Guys, Guys, you're missing the point. Helganstandt isn't whining that the ship was destroyed. I think she's said that enough times already now.
She's just pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming neutrality whilst taking sides in a conflict.
Simple as that.
Try to process that single sentence of information. It's really not hard.
____ |
Tarphon
|
Posted - 2006.06.09 02:37:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Tarphon on 09/06/2006 02:39:49
Nevermind you wouldnt understand anyway
Originally by: Helganstandt
I already contacted all of ISS higher management, and they told me I was just wasting their time.
Now your wasting our time
|
DeltaH
|
Posted - 2006.06.09 02:50:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Nooey
Is it just me, or does ISS redefine the term "neutral" on an almost monthly basis?
If you are killing pirates for no other reason than they're being pirates, you're choosing a side. How is that so hard for everyone to see?
-
Let me describe a truly neutral Corporation/Alliance.
The rules of engagement are dead simple.
1. If it's not red, you don't shoot it.
2. If it's red, then it shot one of you, so shoot it.
3. If it shoots you, you shoot it right back.
4. If it looks like it's about to become red, get ready to shoot it.
That is neutrality.
It sometimes means watching other neutrals die right in front of you and not stepping in. A gruesome reality to be sure, but...
That is neutrality.
Coincidentally, it is also the most positive approach you can take to 0.0 politics. If you sheperd n00bs day in day out via anti-piracy, they'll never really be safe, they'll never really be free, and they'll never really learn. They'll just be sheep who can't function without a sheperd, they'll just be weak leeches.
ISS has chosen the side of the Sheperd. I think that's pretty obvious to anyone with at least one eye open.
Nooey is wise, and I'm not just saying that because of his awesome sig.
True neutrality is hard and ISS tries to claim the benefits of neutrality without the sacrafice.
-DeltaH
|
aquontium
|
Posted - 2006.06.09 03:47:00 -
[59]
as a neutral, i'd have to say.........pirating is bad expect to die mmmkay!
but not at the hands of ISS, a neutral organisation.
why not close this topic and have it out with Lake. He's stated some surprise and concern, and seems reasonable.
|
Alessandra Helborne
|
Posted - 2006.06.09 04:00:00 -
[60]
One thing everyone seems to be missing.
The pilot they shot up was in a gang with ISS. Working with them even. IMO, this falls under the act of protecting ISS assets.
2nd, a pirate is to be considered a threat to an industrialist. Therefore they are defending thier operations.
You bought jump clone standings, not a NAP.
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |