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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2006.06.14 04:02:00 -
[121]
Nooo, NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Since when is CCP bothering with the sand in other peoples vagina?
 Originally by: Oveur
I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
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fmercury
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Posted - 2006.06.14 04:04:00 -
[122]
By the way, whatever happened to this:
Quote:
Items or isk lost to a scam may only be reimbursed if the scammer used a verified bug to hide his intentions to scam, and only after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM.
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Fortress Cell
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Posted - 2006.06.14 04:59:00 -
[123]
Thank you VERY much CCP - When I saw my ISK.. I was thinking there is no way I made that in 1 night heh.
Signature Gallery Availible Upon Request In-Game. |
Dinique
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Posted - 2006.06.14 06:37:00 -
[124]
Essentially what this all means is that you can't make a bad IPO investment.
It sickens me that you people got reimbursed for being idiots.
And DS, in earlier posts before this all went down, you PREDICTED an IPO scam, and you sure as hell didn't voice any concern about their validity then. The only reason you are on the side you are on, is because it suits you financially.
I atleast thought you had some integrity. But personal interest comes before everything else, correct?
_____
There's so many different worlds
So many different suns
And we have just one world
But we live in different ones
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spurious signal
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Posted - 2006.06.14 07:14:00 -
[125]
This is disgusting to be honest.
When small people, small corps, non-forum warriors get scammed they get given the finger and told "LOLZ go back to wow n00b, scamming = pvp ROFLOLZ!!11". When big names with big mouths get scammed CCP gets out the band-aid and lollypops and makes it all better for them.
I think EVE just became a different game than the EVE we all used to know and love.
RIP EVE, we loved you well.
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Kyozoku
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Posted - 2006.06.14 07:27:00 -
[126]
***** move ccp
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Infrared Raven
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Posted - 2006.06.14 07:48:00 -
[127]
CCP had to start somewhere, I like it.
Now give us some additional features to protect or lock down money, etc. and the stock market is on...
To the "one step closer to wow"-, "rip eve"-, "idiots deserved to get scammed"-criers: You are pathetic.
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Richard Face
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Posted - 2006.06.14 08:16:00 -
[128]
This decision is asinine, trite, bovine, oafish, doltish, blundering, flaky, inane, capricious, retrograde and fatuous (in that particular order)
Next you will be reimbursing people who fly into PVP with their highs filled with mining lasers because THEY'RE CALLED LASERS DAMMIT AND I HAD AN HONEST EXPECTATION THEY WOULD HURT THINGS
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.06.14 09:43:00 -
[129]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 14/06/2006 09:43:53
Have to agree - disgustingly pathetic policy switch
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
spurious signal
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:21:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Infrared Raven
CCP had to start somewhere, I like it.
Now give us some additional features to protect or lock down money, etc. and the stock market is on...
To the "one step closer to wow"-, "rip eve"-, "idiots deserved to get scammed"-criers: You are pathetic.
You're in a bit of a minority with those views. CCP have changed the rules here, and they did it without informing anyone.
To edit the sticky with the rules on this forum AFTER reimbursing people and not make a big public announcement about it reeks of underhandedness and hasty, badly-thought out decisions.
EVE has always, ALWAYS been about pvp at all levels. Never trust anyone, buyer beware, no hand-outs, scamming is and always has been part of the game. If that's gone now then this game has changed. CCP have also always been upfront, honest and shown the highest integrity and respect for us players. This move undermines all of that.
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Heikki
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Posted - 2006.06.14 10:45:00 -
[131]
In my not so humble opinion, CCP really should issue some kind of statement about the issue; it does have huge impact in Stock market and Scam mini profession parts of Eve.
For example:
- If people petition older similar scams, will they get reimbursements as well? Or what are the conditions required for such reimbursement? That is, what makes this scam so special? (IMHO this point alone is worth of statement from CCP, to avoid handling those petitions).
- What kind of scams will be reimbursed; on what kind of conditions would-be investors can assume CCP to help them out? Or will it depend on how many petitions one makes and who gets to handle them?
- Did the scammer (Janette) lose her gains? If she did, why? She broke no existing rules as far as I'm aware. If she didn't, we got bunch of ISK out of nothing (abusable as well). Will the future scammers lose theirs?
It's a harsh world and thats why I love it. Of course will always try make it easier for me, but it should through my actions, not by CCP pampering.
-Lasse
really surprised and worried
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Danks
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Posted - 2006.06.14 12:03:00 -
[132]
Total BS, the isk should never have been refunded. I've lost a lot of faith in CCP :(
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Herona
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Posted - 2006.06.14 12:44:00 -
[133]
Was the ISK reimbursed due to personal gain of the GM or was it to try to preserve the stock market dream?
I dont care witch one it is, both reasons are no excuse to do this.
1. Why would it be allowed for a GM to take back his own mistakes?
And dont give me that I'm GM and I do what I want to do attitute.
2. Such things are bound to happen again, just look at real stock markets, why do they work? They work cuz ppl take the risk and do bad invesments, not good ones(Didnt you know the bank allways wins? ...exept for that one time when a genious got the bank bankrupt he worked for, others gained ****loads on cuz of that). and if it makes a dent in somonce stock, are you going to whine cuz i only got xxxxxxx ISK this month (cry) last month they gave me xxxxxxxxxxxxx. well buhu...
Dont you know there are loads of corporations who thrive on scamming ppl.
Calling your home, selling you somthing and then you get nothing, cuz that corp doznt exist the nex day.
Be more carefull next time check how long the person has been in that corp he's in, and how long time he spent in other corps. If his Employment history is long hes most likely untrustworthy if he cant stay in one place for long, If his Employment history is very short, he might be an alt or dosent play that much... Either way dont trust anyone with more mony than you can afford to loose at that time.
Are you also going to backtrack all the ISK that PPL have been tossing around while Gambling on EVE-Radio? if so id like my One billion back, so i can give it to Artemis for fooling so many.
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MoLeH
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Posted - 2006.06.14 13:41:00 -
[134]
If they got there isk returned from this cos there is no guarentee thats its true, CCP need to start browsing logs and returning billions of isk to people who got factory and lab slot scammed, trading those was completely based on trust also.
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/mole12/Mole-sig.jpg
Please ensure your signature is 24,000 bytes or less - Udat |
Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.06.14 14:00:00 -
[135]
I remember how an upstart reseller got scammed out of 500m and left the game (he later came back, but is no longer trading):
Someone offered a fleet tempest for 700m (back then it was a very good deal, they sold for 900+), but here is the catch: someone escrowed it to him for 500m, and he happens to not have enough cash ready to claim it. Its a win-win situation for both parties, he makes 200m from the deal after all.
Since there is no way to make sure that the seller is actually telling the truth, this kind of scam should be refunded as well. After all, he is abusing the obvious lack of game mechanics for his monetary gains.
The only thing you can do is to NOT send a random stranger 500m, and therefor miss out on a damn good deal.
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Nira Li
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Posted - 2006.06.14 14:20:00 -
[136]
What the hell?
I'm dissapointed at CCP for this move.
This is probably the first step to turn this game into My Little Pony...
There's nothing wrong with being the "ultimate evil" and hurt ppl as much as possible with legal tactics.
There must be a risk with playing with the market in eve as it's also a way of pvp.
I hope CCP thinks twice about this move and hopefully don't make impossible to scam anyone at all.
No sympathy for fools!
You Will Cry My Name
Funny Guys
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Fortress Cell
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Posted - 2006.06.14 14:38:00 -
[137]
Im willing to bet more people are happier about this than not.
End.
Signature Gallery Availible Upon Request In-Game. |
Berious
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Posted - 2006.06.14 15:10:00 -
[138]
Yup, who couldn't be happy with retroactive rule changes and apparent GM favours for forum superstars.
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Alisha Lewarx
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Posted - 2006.06.14 15:11:00 -
[139]
Edited by: Alisha Lewarx on 14/06/2006 15:11:33
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
The only thing you can do is to NOT send a random stranger 500m, and therefor miss out on a damn good deal.
if you can sell a tempest for 900+, why in god's name would you sell it for 700? if people believe a story like this they should be legally dispossessed. imho it is not good to compare unbelievable stupidity with a well executed scam.
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Since there is no way to make sure that the seller is actually telling the truth, this kind of scam should be refunded as well. After all, he is abusing the obvious lack of game mechanics for his monetary gains.
from the single fact (sell forum rules changed) we know so far, the reimbursements have been a completely arbitrary ruling with no deeper reason behind it. we have already talked a lot about how game mechanics should be used to improve the way the eve stock market works. but one thing that keeps falling under the table because it's rarely said in an unemotional context:
investment is a risk. as an investor you are supposed to make a judgement about who you trust your money with.
talking of the sve scam some of the blame can be squarely put on Exelsior for letting himself be called trustee, which turned out to be a 100% useless and misleading function, and EMFi manager for conducting and publishing an interview, seemingly without actually doing a backup check on the things said in that interview. as for OZ, as far as i understand all he did was confirm that the business model was valid (which it was). so apart from Exelsior and EMFi manager doing a bad job, 99% of the blame can be squarely put on the investors. YOU CANNOT HAND OVER ENORMOUS SUMS OF MONEY TO A STRANGER WITH NO PRIOR ENTREPRENEURIAL RECORD. that's pretty much as bluntly as i can put it.
you will always face a risk when handing over money to someone else, but arguably the risk can be immensely mitigated by thinking about who you are going to hand how much money.
the sve investors did a very bad job as investors, it is ridiculous that ccp reimburses them. no sane reallife investor would give 25B to a stranger with no record of entrepreneurial success.
if this is anything but an overhasted reaction by an inexperienced GM, i officially retract my foolish statement:
Originally by: Alisha Lewarx
1) since we're playing their game, i guess it's fair that they can always decide whatever they want.
PS: Im willing to bet more people are stupid than not.
Originally by: Fortress Cell
Im willing to bet more people are happier about this than not.
End.
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Ktor
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Posted - 2006.06.14 15:20:00 -
[140]
I want my isk back for Moon Miners Anonymous. A scam perpetuated by the forums with isk gathered ingame through shares transfer feature. Exactly as this scam was done.
I petitioned a GM and was told that the scam was allowed and that I wouldn't get my money back. I dealt with that and have moved on. Now this happens and everyone gets there money back? Sorry but this is flat out crap and a kick in the teeth to those of us scammed by IPO's in the forums.
All warfare is based on deception.
There is no place where espionage is not used.
Offer the enemy bait to lure him.
Sun-Tzu
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Shimpu
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Posted - 2006.06.14 15:35:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Emperor ChopSuey
Originally by: Ariu Devine
I've tried to keep up with all the posts over the last 24 hours dealing with this. And to be quite honest, I dont think I have seen anyone really whine about losing their money. There were those who felt certain ways.
But I believe it comes down to people have finally had enough and that something needs to be done about it. As players, there is only so much we can do. And as the game expands, the devs have to be willing to expand with us.
My main concern now is that the refund has happened, that alot of people will just shut up and not continue on in pursuit of fixing the system. But expect that everytime something like this happens, to be saved. And I dont want that.
There is no broken system here. People trusted other players they didn't know with lots of isk and no collateral. They are fools and should have been parted with their isk, it is one form of natural selection.
This is pretty unbelievable.
Exactly. The one difference in this case is that the scammed people gave their "good" names before cross checking what they are up to. "If you can't guarantee for someone, don't do it!". Reimbursing this is just pathetic. Bad day for Eve and people who prefer self responsibility over sanctioned kindergarten.
Originally by: Seleene
This is what happens when you eat the red M&M's
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Iantine
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Posted - 2006.06.14 16:22:00 -
[142]
I'm not going to debate on whether returning the ISK was right or wrong (For one thing, I havn't gotten mine back yet, if ever). However, there is one thing people (in particular, those claiming that GMs stopping scams will turn Eve into carebear land) are missing:
This scam was *not* due to the naivety or laziness of those scammed.
Every meta-game tool investors have to determine the validity of the scam was used. The age of Janette's character was checked, her main was found out, a trustee was placed in the corp, screenshots were taken of the corp materials Janette was donating, EMFi conducted an interview with the new CEO. The most experienced stock brokers in the game examined the stock and gave it a thumbs up.
The fact that they were wrong is not due to any failing of theirs, its proof that as the game currently stands there is no way to verify stock purchases. The vast majority of those who complained about the scam didn't ask for their money back, they asked that CCP add a way to prevent these kinds of scams in the future. I assume the CCP devs and GMs want a stock market, and with all the copycat scams that this one would have sparked the only way the stock market would haved survived would be if the GMs didn't allow them, or the Devs completely recoded how stock works. Ideally both, because face it, if there's a loophole somewhere a player will find it.
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Treylis
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Posted - 2006.06.14 16:32:00 -
[143]
This is horribly idiotic, and I can't believe CCP has refunded money. A slippery slope and bad precedent, indeed.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.06.14 16:41:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Iantine
This scam was *not* due to the naivety or laziness of those scammed.
And here you are so fundamentally wrong. People made a short list of warning signs to protect them against scammers. They made fake rules, and janette played by these fake rules. All our great IPO share analysts lived in a fake world where perfect spelling, and a employment history guaranteed a scam-proof IPO. Everyone crying reminds me of people who try to sprinkle holy water in the face of an insane human killer who drinks blood.
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Exelsior
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Posted - 2006.06.14 16:44:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
people who try to sprinkle holy water in the face of an insane human killer who drinks blood.
My Blog with freighter services/preliminary IPO business plan
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Alisha Lewarx
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Posted - 2006.06.14 16:45:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Iantine
This scam was *not* due to the naivety or laziness of those scammed.
1) how in the world would you come to this conclusion?
2) what are you saying to the people who deemed sve to be a doubtful investment and therefore didn't participate? what idiots they must be for comparing risk with reward and coming to the conclusion that handing 25B to a stranger with no entrepreneurial record would be a bad investment decision?
3) what are you saying to those entrepreneurs that start small, earn trust and do hard work, with a fraction of that sum? what idiots they must be for not just demanding several billions of isk for their first venture?
it is becoming quite a pain to repeat myself over and over again. is my reasoning totally wrong or are people just not "into" reading previous comments? there is not and never will be any kind of tool to determine the validity of an IPO. this whole farce will only lead to the next scammer putting a little more work into it and being a little less open about it, rinse and repeat. unless people start accepting that investments can only work in an environment where people earn trust by hard work (and not by fooling a couple of inept self appointed stock brokers) this thing will happen again and again and again...
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Exelsior
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Posted - 2006.06.14 16:48:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Alisha Lewarx
Originally by: Iantine
This scam was *not* due to the naivety or laziness of those scammed.
1) how in the world would you come to this conclusion?
2) what are you saying to the people who deemed sve to be a doubtful investment and therefore didn't participate? what idiots they must be for comparing risk with reward and coming to the conclusion that handing 25B to a stranger with no entrepreneurial record would be a bad investment decision?
3) what are you saying to those entrepreneurs that start small, earn trust and do hard work, with a fraction of that sum? what idiots they must be for not just demanding several billions of isk for their first venture?
it is becoming quite a pain to repeat myself over and over again. is my reasoning totally wrong or are people just not "into" reading previous comments? there is not and never will be any kind of tool to determine the validity of an IPO. this whole farce will only lead to the next scammer putting a little more work into it and being a little less open about it, rinse and repeat. unless people start accepting that investments can only work in an environment where people earn trust by hard work (and not by fooling a couple of inept self appointed stock brokers) this thing will happen again and again and again...
I agree.
Which is why i've postponed my IPO for like another 5-6 months to build up a business in advance, and to provide a large portion of the capital.
My Blog with freighter services/preliminary IPO business plan
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.06.14 17:09:00 -
[148]
Just to make sure: while i do blame the trustees for making mistakes - that's no big deal. I told someone that asking 1,8b for a 10km Smartbomb is just plain moronic - it sold the next day :(
Neither Exelsior nor OZ have claimed that they got taken by ebil uncounterable exploits.
The problem lies with those investors who got taken, and refuse to admit their failure - making up fake rules about forums being protected against scams (not true at the time of the scam, there was even an official clarification telling just that IN REACTION TO IPO SCAMs), making up fake rules about uncounterable scams (please refund pirate ransoms to pirates who blow up people anyway) etc.
I do realise that not everyone has been refunded, nor crying for a refund.
The hardworking guys like O'Mara got hit in the face. Why did he bother making reports and building trust by competence and experience when he could just have asked for 25b from random lazy strangers?
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Havelcek
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Posted - 2006.06.14 17:14:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Just to make sure: while i do blame the trustees for making mistakes - that's no big deal. I told someone that asking 1,8b for a 10km Smartbomb is just plain moronic - it sold the next day :(
Neither Exelsior nor OZ have claimed that they got taken by ebil uncounterable exploits.
The problem lies with those investors who got taken, and refuse to admit their failure - making up fake rules about forums being protected against scams (not true at the time of the scam, there was even an official clarification telling just that IN REACTION TO IPO SCAMs), making up fake rules about uncounterable scams (please refund pirate ransoms to pirates who blow up people anyway) etc.
I do realise that not everyone has been refunded, nor crying for a refund.
The hardworking guys like O'Mara got hit in the face. Why did he bother making reports and building trust by competence and experience when he could just have asked for 25b from random lazy strangers?
Agreed, this is about the CCP intervention and failure of folks who constantly forum-warrior on noobies about being scammed to stand up and take their medicine like men.
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Alisha Lewarx
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Posted - 2006.06.14 17:44:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Iantine
So your potential scammer works for three months and establishes a business, then starts and IPO, takes the money, and runs.
The SVE scam had all the infrastructure for a business before they went IPO, with, as I recall, atleast a freighter and a tech 2 BPO. They had a character created in 2003 and an associated main with no history of scamming. The amount of work involved here is trivial compared to operating a production company for a few months to set up a background.
What do you suggest we do to insure the validity of IPOs? Have the brokers track them all down and subject them to polygraph tests?
1) obviously whatever work janette put into this scam was worth 25B to her. the 2 relevant questions are: would this work have been worth 100M (or whatever else you would define as a sensible sum for a first time IPO) to her? do you feel you demanded enough work from her to entrust her with 25B?
2) thanks for making me repeat myself again 
Originally by: Alisha Lewarx
investment is a risk. as an investor you are supposed to make a judgement about who you trust your money with.
Originally by: Alisha Lewarx
there is not and never will be any kind of tool to determine the validity of an IPO.
a stock market is the same as a lottery, except that you have the possibility to use available information to influence the odds in your favor (by making a better decision based upon the same information or by obtaining better information than the others). unless the eve stock market isn't supposed to resemble a real stock market this is a fact.
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