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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Exelsior	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:31:00 - [1] As of 13:24 on the 13th of June, I was sent 500m by GM [6203]. I thank thee from all my heart My Blog with freighter services/preliminary IPO business plan
Ariu Devine	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:37:00 - [2] Yes. Thank you very much. -- Always Seeking. Never Finding.
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:41:00 - [3] Edited by: stingy CEO on 13/06/2006 13:43:55 as much as I am inclined to thank you for my 2 billion isk, I don't think its quite fair tbh to future investors and past scam victims. What is needed is the willingness to brainstorm/ help implement tools for the stockmarket to protect itself in some way against such things, otherwise my 2 billion is a drop on a hot plate. Given the fact that I was very loud about ccp not acting on this, I will now shut up a bit because obviously i started getting bitter too soon, but i still think alot of very good points have been made in the various threads and it needs serious consideration and maybe a reaction from someone from the devs ?
Eton Favre	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:43:00 - [4] Just wanted to say thank you I had already written the money off. nice suprise in my wallet Thanks again.
Gully Smit	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:46:00 - [5] I had 90% faith in the CCP.
Jaeger Orlofsson	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:49:00 - [6] WTS: Galaxy Shipyard and GPSx shares
Braendig	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:54:00 - [7] If my account has been credited the amount of ISK I spent on the IPO, I'm grateful. As I haven't logged in recently, I can't know for sure, but the tenor of the posts here suggests that monies have been returned. This brings up the greater point about the other 'known' scams that have been perpetrated in the past (MMA and others). Unless I haven't been paying as much attention as I thought I have, all the 'failed' IPOs other than GPSx have been scams. Where is the return of those monies? It shouldn't be any more difficult to track down than it was to find this money. And while we're at it, I'd like to find out the feasiblity of allowing a shareholder sponsored vote on GPSx for liquidation of the corporation's holdings and seizure of the CEO's assets to repay investors. Once again, I'm thankful that this particular IPO scam has been resolved to everyone's satisfaction (or at least the satisfaction of the investors, if noone else is happy about it), but I would appreciate some similar action on other IPO scams perpetrated along similar, almost identical, lines in the past.
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:55:00 - [8] I just checked ingame, I wasnt refunded after all .... yet ^^
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:57:00 - [9] I'm sure the guys that made eve are no dummies..... they realise very well that refunding this scam has as a logical effect: refunding ipo scams of the past (which imo is a bad idea, I repeat i'd prefer to see some more meaningfull changes instead of a refund) Ah well we will see.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:57:00 - [10] The very definition of pathetic. Revell in your hollow victory.
Taurequis	Posted - 2006.06.13 13:58:00 - [11] I've not checked my bank balance as yet. But im impressed that CCP have gone to the efforts of refunding isk. But i echo stingy in saying its not what he or I wanted in this case. It opens a can of worms about refunding past scam ipos which distracts from what we are trying to achive with these posts. I'll hold off posting more just now as i'm sure there will be a ccp/gm announcement soon regarding the subject and any proposed clarification/changes to the rules. Best Regards, Taurequis
Braendig	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:00:00 - [12] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers The very definition of pathetic. Revell in your hollow victory. Pathetic for expecting a game that is predicated upon the corporation as the founding block for the entire socioeconomic system of the galaxy to have -some- methodology for shareholders of a corporation to exert some control or oversight of it? To be able to audit books, prosecute embezzlement and recover stolen funds? I really don't know what more to say; you're allowed your opinion and I reserve the right to mine.
Ariu Devine	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:07:00 - [13] Lets not let this turn into a flame fest please. We need to have an open dialogue with CCP on how we can fix this system. Obviously it was never thought in the original creation of the share system to be used for IPO's, and if it was, then the possibility for IPO scams such as this were an oversight. Many idea's have come forward and we need to get something in place that will help protect us until we get a permenant solution. -- Always Seeking. Never Finding.
Gully Smit	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:12:00 - [14] Edited by: Gully Smit on 13/06/2006 14:13:53 in general MY opinion of scamming in any game is that...in many cases (or nearly all) these crimes are unpunishable......that imo is bad news for any community. that has to change. EVEJAIL!
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:12:00 - [15] Even if the GMs gave you your money back - noone of you will be able to ever remove the taint of total personal failure. You messed up, and the gods came in to safe you. I messed up as well, but unlike everyone else, i do not place the blame on anyone but myself.
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:15:00 - [16] Edited by: stingy CEO on 13/06/2006 14:15:53 Quote: Even if the GMs gave you your money back - noone of you will be able to ever remove the taint of total personal failure. You messed up, and the gods came in to safe you. I messed up as well, but unlike everyone else, i do not place the blame on anyone but myself i think your atavist/darwinistic view of EVE Economics is hopelessly outdated and although I agree with you that just a refund would be a bad thing, I think you are a very dumb person if you can't see that if this little revolt in all these posts leads to improvements in the economic aspect of EVE, it was a good thing. Still haven't been refunded, but i'm waiting more for the stressed out underpayed CCP dev to come up with an answer to the ****load of questions asked in the last days of this debacle.
Exelsior	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:16:00 - [17] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Even if the GMs gave you your money back - noone of you will be able to ever remove the taint of total personal failure. You messed up, and the gods came in to safe you. I messed up as well, but unlike everyone else, i do not place the blame on anyone but myself. I made a public apology for making others feel safer about this investment, as did Omber Zombie. No where have I gone into a flame fest against Janette or whined about being scammed. I put the blame on myself, and partially CCP for not getting the game mechanics in order. If you find this pathetic i'm afraid you need to re-check the definition with a dictionnary my friend. My Blog with freighter services/preliminary IPO business plan
Shimpu	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:23:00 - [18] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Even if the GMs gave you your money back - noone of you will be able to ever remove the taint of total personal failure. You messed up, and the gods came in to safe you. I messed up as well, but unlike everyone else, i do not place the blame on anyone but myself. /signed Originally by: Seleene This is what happens when you eat the red M&M's
Ariu Devine	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:24:00 - [19] I've tried to keep up with all the posts over the last 24 hours dealing with this. And to be quite honest, I dont think I have seen anyone really whine about losing their money. There were those who felt certain ways. But I believe it comes down to people have finally had enough and that something needs to be done about it. As players, there is only so much we can do. And as the game expands, the devs have to be willing to expand with us. My main concern now is that the refund has happened, that alot of people will just shut up and not continue on in pursuit of fixing the system. But expect that everytime something like this happens, to be saved. And I dont want that. -- Always Seeking. Never Finding.
Treelox	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:28:00 - [20] I think that it was the mitigating circumstances that got us a refund on this one. Using the forums to assist a scam, aswell as gloating afterwards multiple times. Makes sense in an RP sort of way... The thief who makes his heist and leaves never to be heard from, gets away with the crime. The thief who stands up and brags about his ill gotten gains, gets caught. pigs get fed....hogs get slaughtered.... CCP, thank you very much. I would like to see an official response to this whole issue at sometime.
Gully Smit	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:28:00 - [21] CCP wouldn't refund the isk UNLESS they had a failproof sa***aurd from this repeating. CCP may have grappled with developing what players did on thier owm (the eve stock exchange) and would have forseen something like this happening. They might have a fix for it imo.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:31:00 - [22] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 13/06/2006 14:34:15 Originally by: Exelsior Edited by: Exelsior on 13/06/2006 14:21:50 Originally by: Argenton Sayvers The very definition of pathetic. Revell in your hollow victory. I made a public apology for making others feel safer about this investment, as did Omber Zombie. No where have I gone into a flame fest against Janette or whined about being scammed. I put the blame on myself, and partially CCP for not getting the game mechanics in order. If you find this pathetic i'm afraid you need to re-check the definition with a dictionary my friend. Sorry for making it not clear. Nowhere did i say that you, OZ, fem, or EMFI are "pathetic". The entire situation is. You made mistakes, real ones. (EMFI did not check the brother of Artemis etc). That can happen, defeat is one part of the battle. Note that unless someone of is a GM / dev in disguise, nothing you ever said or did could really influence the conclusion of this drama.
Gully Smit	Posted - 2006.06.13 14:53:00 - [23] another idea...perhaps they view this as an exploit...without some kind of safe method in place........common scams have one basic element of stupidity....I really don't believe the investors are being stupid...and that it's CCPs responsibility to protect these trades.
Max Teranous	Posted - 2006.06.13 15:02:00 - [24] Sigh. CCP caving in and giving back the isks that people were socially engineered to give away is opening a massive pandoras box of similar claims, rants, whines and demands. "10 months ago I bought a shuttle off the market for 9mil, not 9k. Where's my 8,991,000 isk CCP !!!!!111oneoneeleven!" Max
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.13 15:16:00 - [25] Edited by: stingy CEO on 13/06/2006 15:18:44 Quote: My main concern now is that the refund has happened, that alot of people will just shut up and not continue on in pursuit of fixing the system. But expect that everytime something like this happens, to be saved. And I dont want that. QFT (note that I haven't been refunded yet, and if ccp does nothing to adress the problems made clear by what happened, IF I do get a refund, I will go through the entire mess of tyring to refund those most heavily hit by previous IPO scams, as far as my 2 billion reaches Also, I cannot force the others that got refunded in this IPO to do the same, but I strongly encourage it, as keeping the mo,ney without real changes would be just unfair to those that got scammed in the GPSX for example))
Lesbos	Posted - 2006.06.13 15:23:00 - [26] Originally by: stingy CEO Edited by: stingy CEO on 13/06/2006 15:18:44 Quote: My main concern now is that the refund has happened, that alot of people will just shut up and not continue on in pursuit of fixing the system. But expect that everytime something like this happens, to be saved. And I dont want that. QFT (note that I haven't been refunded yet, and if ccp does nothing to adress the problems made clear by what happened, IF I do get a refund, I will go through the entire mess of tyring to refund those most heavily hit by previous IPO scams, as far as my 2 billion reaches Also, I cannot force the others that got refunded in this IPO to do the same, but I strongly encourage it, as keeping the mo,ney without real changes would be just unfair to those that got scammed in the GPSX for example)) I got scammed beyond believe stingy. Thanks for your offer. Send money to me and call 0800-YOUDIDITAGAIN
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 15:23:00 - [27] last random thought for today: Would be kind of fun if mirial now gets her BPOs back.
Gully Smit	Posted - 2006.06.13 15:25:00 - [28] "10 months ago I bought a shuttle off the market for 9mil, not 9k. Where's my 8,991,000 isk CCP !!!!!111oneoneeleven!"Rolling Eyes I don't think stupidity is involved in what these investors are doing......CCP should make this new area of trade safe. someone can easily pay their boker too much isk or get too many shares(both of which happened to me and I returned the shares..and my isk was returned too because it could be corrected by players).
Taurequis	Posted - 2006.06.13 15:28:00 - [29] Edited by: Taurequis on 13/06/2006 15:29:35 Originally by: stingy CEO Edited by: stingy CEO on 13/06/2006 15:18:44 Quote: My main concern now is that the refund has happened, that alot of people will just shut up and not continue on in pursuit of fixing the system. But expect that everytime something like this happens, to be saved. And I dont want that. QFT (note that I haven't been refunded yet, and if ccp does nothing to adress the problems made clear by what happened, IF I do get a refund, I will go through the entire mess of tyring to refund those most heavily hit by previous IPO scams, as far as my 2 billion reaches Also, I cannot force the others that got refunded in this IPO to do the same, but I strongly encourage it, as keeping the mo,ney without real changes would be just unfair to those that got scammed in the GPSX for example)) Welldone, Was just thinking that myself. But i've only got my 75 mil to chip into the pot (if it gets refunded). We are, and most of the other people defrauded by this scam are, posting because we want to stimulate some change, not get our cash back. There is a wonderful, player driven new aspect to this great game we love being developed over the last few months in this forum and the minds of many bright and inspired people. CCP cannot and must not fail to reconise the benifits to the game and the community, as a whole, of this IPO/Share buisness. Again i'll try and reserve any further comment until I know the exact actions the GMs/CCP have in mind. But many many good suggestions have been discussed here in the last 24 hours between the random flames. Best Regards, Taurequis
Max Teranous	Posted - 2006.06.13 15:33:00 - [30] Maybe my example was extreme, but the investor pressed the "send money" button, no-one else. Why did they do it? Because the scammer set it up very cleverly, duped a couple of upstanding members of the community into helping him and should IMO get the reward. Nothing in Eve is safe, and it shouldn't be. Investors made the mistake of trusting an unknown with their isk, and should pay the price. Same as if a PvPer jumped a BS into an enemy camp without a scout. Max
Ricdic	Posted - 2006.06.13 16:00:00 - [31] Well being hit hard by GPSx and seeing the resolution you guys have gotten, I would like to see CCP follow precedent in the matter. I lost a huge amount of funds to GPSx, and the Ex-ceo of that corp Countess Oracle still logs on from time to time. Stingy, while your deeds are noble, I don't think you guys should have to foot this bill. I would, at the very least like to see Countess Oracle's assets and isk be seized and auctioned using only GPSx shares as payment. Preferably a refund of course, but I can definetly live with the auction ------------------------------------------ Dreadnought Production INC is recruiting Join DPI Channel Or Visit (IGB) http://www.mmorpg-online.net/intro.html
Dahin	Posted - 2006.06.13 16:25:00 - [32] I am dissapointed. Since when is CCP listening to these things? Where am I? Are you starting to cave in?
Herona	Posted - 2006.06.13 17:10:00 - [33] I am very dissapointed in CCP for actually caving in and giving ppl back mony they were so willing to just give away. In EVE you take risks, thats what makes the game fun. In other games you dont take any risks, oh nohes! il have to respawn. It's a GAME!. your not loosing real mony unless you are the ones actually violating the rules!.
Ricdic	Posted - 2006.06.13 17:21:00 - [34] Originally by: Herona I am very dissapointed in CCP for actually caving in and giving ppl back mony they were so willing to just give away. In EVE you take risks, thats what makes the game fun. In other games you dont take any risks, oh nohes! il have to respawn. It's a GAME!. your not loosing real mony unless you are the ones actually violating the rules!. I don't see how you find it so hard to understand. Every profession and thing in this game is preventable, CCP having sanctions to prevent the user, not from their own mistakes, but from failing to heed the 'warning' signs. When you jump into lowsec, you have the option to first check pilots in space, pods destroyed in recent 1 hour etc. When you do a market transaction, a popup will appear stating the product is 5000% overpriced. When you do a direct trade, you can show info to see exactly what you are recieving When you accept a mission escrow/courier, you can check precisely what you are getting When your ore is taken, you can personally bring ramifications upon the theif When you have an open corp hangar, you can add audit logs to secure your most valuable belongings or initiate lockdown on valuable bpos There are 3 things at this point in the game that have no protection 1) GTC Scams 2) Character Scams 3) IPO Scams Now both 1 and 2 offer severe punishment by CCP if used incorrectly. Number 3 does not fall into this category, nor does it fall into any in-game protection/retaliation category. Do you understand yet? ------------------------------------------ Dreadnought Production INC is recruiting Join DPI Channel Or Visit (IGB) http://www.mmorpg-online.net/intro.html
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.06.13 17:22:00 - [35] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 13/06/2006 17:23:34 Originally by: Herona I am very dissapointed in CCP for actually caving in and giving ppl back mony they were so willing to just give away. In EVE you take risks, thats what makes the game fun. In other games you dont take any risks, oh nohes! il have to respawn. It's a GAME!. your not loosing real mony unless you are the ones actually violating the rules!. I think it is fair on scammer and victims but changed my mind when I see scammer abusing scams using forums in breaching trust. Worst part is scammer actually gloat on a scam publicly and create a link to insult people. I think things might have been different if scammer just take the ISKs, run away and dont brag about it. Just my 5 ISKs. EDIT: No need to mock IPOs, even carebears need economic fun. Making things explode isnt everything... ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT! Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Farewell forumers and lovely mods.
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.13 17:33:00 - [36] Edited by: Rthor on 13/06/2006 17:35:09 No good dead should be left unpunished. You screwed CCP by admitting in public forums that you got bailed out in EVE. Personally I stay away from such investments because I think that they are risky. Look nobody is asking you to share your profits if you win but it is not fair to get your money back if you lose. This talk about how it is CCPs fault because they designed game wrong sounds like RL lobbying. Maybe CCP feels pressure to give money back for their own good but it really looks like real life politics with CCP being the government and scammed people being politically connected and this scam being some kind of a pork project and the rest of the Eve community looking at this like RL non-politically connected people thinking "WTF is going on in my country."
Macdeth	Posted - 2006.06.13 17:42:00 - [37] Reimbursement is stupid, just like most government bailouts are in real life. If people fail to properly analyze the risks and make sketchy investment decisions solely due to their own greed, they should face the consequences of their own error. Alone. Otherwise, nobody learns anything from their errors and the foolish, greedy people get to profit when they're right and face no downside risk when they're wrong. Where is the official CCP line drawn for reimbursement between taking the money and running, not fulfilling the investment expectations, simply having bad luck, or even gross incompetence?
The Slayer	Posted - 2006.06.13 17:53:00 - [38] -10 respect to CCP for me :) Hey I got scammed on escrow, can I get my isk back please? You knew there was a risk, you took it, you lost out, tough *****. Scams have NEVER been reimbursed before, and this is a scary precident. If CCP are gonna remove scamming from the game they should officially say so, forum post saying "SCAMMERS WILL BE BANNED". The scammers didnt abuse game mechanics, they didnt exploit a bug, they used pure social engineering to get your isk, and the fact that CCP are returning your isk sends a clear message that this sort of practice is no longer allowed. Official statement please. __________________________________ Your Dual 250mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes Estamel Tharchon, wrecking for 187.6 damage.
Ulle	Posted - 2006.06.13 17:54:00 - [39] The decision here was among various necessary evils. What would you have chosen ? Establish the rule that carebearish forum scams without any reasonable chances of payback and recovery like this are legitimate, and you'll either destroy a part of the game in the long term if lucky or, more probably, create a nice, legitimate, fast way to farm billions of ISKs ready to be converted in RL money at 0% risks. Stop them, and players will start wondering about the past IPO scams (Lunar Miner, etc) or even more generic escrow or mission scams, now and in the future, and ask for reimbursement the same as ship pilots ask when killed in laggy situations (even more easy, as forums state way more than simple logs). I could say that I don't really care about the money being given back or not - I didn't buy any SVE share, but for luck and surely not because I 'saw' bad stuff in a perfectly looking offer, so you may say I'm biased - I'm surely more worried by the hypothesis that this is just a palliative given to us instead of the real cure. I really, really want better ways to deal with this.
Huacra	Posted - 2006.06.13 17:55:00 - [40] Did Artemis/Janette lose money as well?(get banned?) I hope so but maybe they just give everybody money equal to what they lost.
The Slayer	Posted - 2006.06.13 17:57:00 - [41] Originally by: Ulle blahblahblahblahblah Scamming is part of the game. It always has been. If it is no longer allowed I want a GM to come here and tell me so. __________________________________ Your Dual 250mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes Estamel Tharchon, wrecking for 187.6 damage.
Asuna Marumi	Posted - 2006.06.13 18:02:00 - [42] refund = disgusting
Ariu Devine	Posted - 2006.06.13 18:09:00 - [43] It came out of Janette's wallet. And I havent seen Janette or Artemis on since yesterday afternoon for me. My belief in the reimbursement was how the scam played out. Using the forums to do all the pitching, sales, etc. But transfer of the isk had to be done in game. By doing that, they did break the rules of the forums. All the investors, because of the backing of trusted individuals who had been shown certain things, believed this was a legitimate business venture. But in the end, the scammer came on the forums, insulted all investors, and then even bragged about it to the point saying CCP would do nothing about it. Because of the growing popularity of publicly traded companies with in the game, this would only get worse. To the point where you would have no idea which was and wasn't a scam because everything would look exactly the same. What are needed are tools and ways for those that choose to invest and take the risk that would "normally" be involved with a company, to verify that this is truly a business venture, and not some scammer that will not even give anything in return or even try to run a business. The players can only do so much to help protect each other, and steps are being taken for that. But we need CCP's help on their side to implement tools and policies. I doubt it will be long before we hear something. -- Always Seeking. Never Finding.
BustyBounty	Posted - 2006.06.13 18:22:00 - [44] i didnt invest but i hope the guy spent billions of the isk or gave billions away so his wallet now shows -10bil or something nice like that
Macdeth	Posted - 2006.06.13 18:28:00 - [45] Originally by: Ariu Devine My belief in the reimbursement was how the scam played out. Using the forums to do all the pitching, sales, etc. But transfer of the isk had to be done in game. By doing that, they did break the rules of the forums. All the investors, because of the backing of trusted individuals who had been shown certain things, believed this was a legitimate business venture. But in the end, the scammer came on the forums, insulted all investors, and then even bragged about it to the point saying CCP would do nothing about it. ArtemisEntreri was selling shares in his corporation on the eve-online.com forums. Did or did not everyone who gave the guy money receive shares? If they did, no foul. In the future, if someone sells shares and their returns are negative (deliberately or not), what then? What if ISS loses one of their shareowner-held outposts due to someone in the management corp turning off starbase sovereignty, for example? I understand some Tribute conquerable stations changed hands in similar circumstances recently. Should that have been reversed, since trust was missplaced? That is EXACTLY what happened here, and we all know how often corp thefts, escrow, and trade window scams have been reimbursed. I believe that the reimbursement in this one isolated case is completely ridiculous, and that the reimbursement should be reversed to be consistent with what has been policy for the last three years.
Hari Sel'don	Posted - 2006.06.13 18:44:00 - [46] Edited by: Hari Sel''don on 13/06/2006 18:47:01 /Me is very amused. Wow what a S-storm this one will cause
The Slayer	Posted - 2006.06.13 18:54:00 - [47] Originally by: Ariu Devine But in the end, the scammer came on the forums, insulted all investors, and then even bragged about it to the point saying CCP would do nothing about it. I do seem to remember at least one "OMG WE ARE UBER" thread when GHSC did that multi billion infirtration a while back. Gloating because you pwned a load of idiots isnt against the rules last I checked. __________________________________ Your Dual 250mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes Estamel Tharchon, wrecking for 187.6 damage.
Alisha Lewarx	Posted - 2006.06.13 19:03:00 - [48] 1) this whole thing is still mostly puzzling, some people say they got reimbursed, some people say they didn't. plus of course noone has a clue about the "why?". is it too much to ask for an official statement from one of the devs? 2) load of bullschit ricdic: a. wrong b. what has this to do with a trust based scam? c. again you are talking of avoiding stupidity, not avoiding a trust based scam d. see above e. this isn't the currently most exploited game mechanic? f. this has worked wonders for Ubiqua Seraph Originally by: Ricdic I don't see how you find it so hard to understand. Every profession and thing in this game is preventable, CCP having sanctions to prevent the user, not from their own mistakes, but from failing to heed the 'warning' signs. When you jump into lowsec, you have the option to first check pilots in space, pods destroyed in recent 1 hour etc. When you do a market transaction, a popup will appear stating the product is 5000% overpriced. When you do a direct trade, you can show info to see exactly what you are recieving When you accept a mission escrow/courier, you can check precisely what you are getting When your ore is taken, you can personally bring ramifications upon the theif When you have an open corp hangar, you can add audit logs to secure your most valuable belongings or initiate lockdown on valuable bpos There are 3 things at this point in the game that have no protection 1) GTC Scams 2) Character Scams 3) IPO Scams Now both 1 and 2 offer severe punishment by CCP if used incorrectly. Number 3 does not fall into this category, nor does it fall into any in-game protection/retaliation category. Do you understand yet?
Ariu Devine	Posted - 2006.06.13 19:04:00 - [49] Originally by: Macdeth ArtemisEntreri was selling shares in his corporation on the eve-online.com forums. Did or did not everyone who gave the guy money receive shares? If they did, no foul. Wrong. Simply wrong. #1. He facilitated a scam on the forums. Hence the threads being locked for evidence. #2. He collected the isk in game from the scam he committed on the forums. Yes, he gave shares. These shares were for capital to start up a business venture that was laid out in front of the investors. Which had the backing of certain individuals due to false information shown. That business venture was what was to be bought into. That was the product. Quote: In the future, if someone sells shares and their returns are negative (deliberately or not), what then? What if ISS loses one of their shareowner-held outposts due to someone in the management corp turning off starbase sovereignty, for example? I understand some Tribute conquerable stations changed hands in similar circumstances recently. Should that have been reversed, since trust was missplaced? That is EXACTLY what happened here, and we all know how often corp thefts, escrow, and trade window scams have been reimbursed. [/qoute] If ISS loses one of the shareowner held outposts, that is a risk that is taken. But the venture DID take off, did it not? That was what was promised. If a company fails, that is a risk. But there are ways to tell if it was a deliberate failure or not. Hopefully this will be one of the tools or such that will be addressed by CCP. And your example of corp thefts, escrow, and trade windows does not apply. In each of those cases, you can CLEARLY see what is there. You know what you're getting. That wasn't the case here. -- Always Seeking. Never Finding.
Elange4	Posted - 2006.06.13 19:26:00 - [50] Some thoughts: A government provides infrastructure and security for it's people; this is why you have the police in RL and why we have Concord and Security Ratings, even in the absence of an Inter-Empire Governemntal Body. The SEC in RL is (one of) the financial police, with the same duteis and roles and Reasons. And international financial markets in RL function because the police cooperate exactly like Concord has Amarr, Gallente, Caldari, and Matari battelships all enforcing the gates. The IPO Market is Infrastructure and needs to be policed accordingly. Players are ofc adventurers: As adventurers we are not necessarily beholden to one insititution, nor are we expected to be. Our job is as change agents. Really, this is not just for argmunets sake, but is the legitimizing principle for private enterprise in any society, and why monolithic single-entity governments fail: they cannot adapt. We are the loose organizations that enable star travel (trade, construction, war) for Empire and Faction bureacracies, and as such they (read Concord/CCP) have a common interest in providing some basic (market) exchanges, rules, and enforcement. In RL the world community has standards of business that are enforceable in any society of any size. Governments realize the enormous benifit they get from trade, financial AND material. In the case of finances, one isk circulates thru an economy many many times before to returning to it's source. By enabling liquidity (which is what the IPO market is all about) and encouraging money to come into the economy form the sidelines, one isk turns up in five places: the wealth of states is leveraged many times. In light of all that, to think that there would not be a financial Concord capable of enforcment procedures is folly. (Perhaps Financial Agents will finally find a use...) --Elange4
Ulle	Posted - 2006.06.13 20:00:00 - [51] Originally by: Alisha Lewarx 1) this whole thing is still mostly puzzling, some people say they got reimbursed, some people say they didn't. plus of course noone has a clue about the "why?". is it too much to ask for an official statement from one of the devs? I totally agree. Right now there is a lot of QQing, but we saw only few confirming reimbursements. Such a decision (or not-decision) from CCP would surely deserve way more than rumors, especially when it could decide about the direction taken by financial piracing activities.
Atma Star	Posted - 2006.06.13 20:12:00 - [52] I can't believe CCP gave you people back your isk.... Artemis sold SHARES. If you got the damn SHARES then you got what you paid for. At the time he did this is was widely understood that the only punishment for that sort of thing would be a forum ban. If CCP wants to make a new rule about it all then they should do so... and if anyone breaks the rule then punish them. This guy may not have done this scam HAD THE RULES BEEN IN PLACE BEFORE HAND. And all you people that wanted to start an ipo investment insurance gig now must think of something else... because we have one, CCP, and its free. What now? Throw money into any IPO and if it doesn't do EXACTLY what it said it would do we all get our money back????? The rules have not been changed since previous scams yet this one scam gets fixed by CCP???? Congratulations everyone there is now no risk in investing. If the IPO doesn't do exactly what it says then I guess we get our money back... how lame. Lame lame lame.
Macdeth	Posted - 2006.06.13 20:44:00 - [53] Originally by: Ariu Devine #1. He facilitated a scam on the forums. Hence the threads being locked for evidence. Per this post on the rules, it is not black & white that everything vaguely scamlike is forbidden: Originally by: Zhuge Liang Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion. The only iron-clad cases are where real money is involved. The subjectivity of the rest is a joke, depending on the GM you get and their mood. Reimbursement on IPO is without precedent or advance notice & thus shouldn't be done. Originally by: Ariu Devine #2. He collected the isk in game from the scam he committed on the forums. Yes, he gave shares. These shares were for capital to start up a business venture that was laid out in front of the investors. Which had the backing of certain individuals due to false information shown. That business venture was what was to be bought into. That was the product. Not a single person I've spoken to from my normal in-game social circle regarding this has expressed the opinion that reimbursement was a good idea. EVERYONE with any experience seems to know that these IPOs are scams until proven otherwise, steer clear unless you have reason to trust those running them. Didn't you? Where was your due diligence? "Other people were doing it and I wanted easy money too" is not a valid answer. Those people who got taken in have realized that it hurt their credibility and say they won't do it again. Reputation clearly matters. This is why almost every good IPO has people with a long history saying 'this is my main/alt' all over it. People judged wrong in this case and have admitted their error. Originally by: Ariu Devine If ISS loses one of the shareowner held outposts, that is a risk that is taken. But the venture DID take off, did it not? That was what was promised. If a company fails, that is a risk. But there are ways to tell if it was a deliberate failure or not. Hopefully this will be one of the tools or such that will be addressed by CCP. And your example of corp thefts, escrow, and trade windows does not apply. In each of those cases, you can CLEARLY see what is there. You know what you're getting. That wasn't the case here. You could clearly see that you were giving billions of isk to a character who said they would make a business out of it, and hoping like hell they did. Did anyone who sent money seriously not entertain an "I hope it's not a scam" thought? If you did, you certainly don't deserve protection here. You knew the risks and dismissed them. Completely different story from the character transfer/timecodes' "If transfer/code doesn't go through, I will get isk back" knowledge. "Deliberate" failures are harder to judge than you pretend. Corp thefts are legal and often much heralded. What if one partner in an IPO group runs out on the rest? Is it suddenly reimbursable because of shareholders when it wouldn't be otherwise? Ridiculous. There's a reason that eve has had no stock market until this recent 'ISS & BMBE' bit, namely 'EVERYONE KNOWS THERE'S NO PROTECTION'. And as for 'but you can tell in game', you buy bookmarks in a can or off escrow from some character and hope like hell that the cans aren't empty or that the bookmarks aren't a few hundred copies of "scammed!". If they're good, insta seller's reputation & trustworthiness improves. In my circle, I have a good reputation built up over years by being reliable, etc. An alt who makes a "Hey guys. Selling shares to do ____, expected ROI is 30% a month, give me 500 billion isk please" does not, but in your world, there's no reason not to fire the twenty billion spare isk in your wallet at that alt without sparing a second thought. After all, if it goes poorly, you just cry to CCP and get your money back. Coddle the morons, good idea.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:06:00 - [54] I cannot believe it. They changed the rules. As you can clearly see, the sell order forum rules got changed AFTER this scam. Artemis did the same mistake as everyone else that is involved in this drama. Trust. He trusted the GMs to be fair and enforce the rules. From now on, there are no rules in eve.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:08:00 - [55] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers I cannot believe it. They changed the rules. As you can clearly see, the sell order forum rules got changed AFTER this scam. Artemis did the same mistake as everyone else that is involved in this drama. Trust. He trusted the GMs to be fair and enforce the rules. From now on, there are no rules in eve. They change the rules ex post facto all the time. Do you remember when Zombie got banned after the Yulai incident? Classic case. Anyways, I'm happy this was done. It was a change that needed to be made, and an example needed to be made of the new rule. And my ISK is back in my wallet --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:10:00 - [56] Pathetic. My respect for CCP has dropped far lower than I thought it ever would. Might as well add instanced asteroid belts while you're at it. Amazing how easily the eve community is swayed by forum *****s
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:14:00 - [57] You have got to be ******* kidding me. Why was it returned? You lost it fair and square.
Toshiro Khan	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:30:00 - [58] Erm... I belive the reason for this refund is because it was a forum scam.. Now had the scam been done in game and not on the forums, then thats a totally different kettle of fish and kudos. In game scamming = fine and dandy. Forum scamming = a big no no. Kinda makes sence, even though it was a good scam the trade forum is supposed to be a scam free zone.
Nina686	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:30:00 - [59] LMAO I think we all know what happened here...... A few of the characters that got scammed were the private characters of a few of the devs.
Scary Noises	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:32:00 - [60] What the hell? When people started throwing their money down the giant toilet that was Internet IPOs recently, no one got their investment back when the company selling robotic frogs or whatnot tanked. This is an EXTREME level of stupidity, it does not deserve special protection.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:34:00 - [61] Originally by: Scary Noises What the hell? When people started throwing their money down the giant toilet that was Internet IPOs recently, no one got their investment back when the company selling robotic frogs or whatnot tanked. This is an EXTREME level of stupidity, it does not deserve special protection. But those companies "tanked." Their owners weren't allowed to run away with the money and avoid legal prosecution. Their owners went bankrupt too. This scam wasn't "cool", it wasn't "skillful," it was simply an abuse of game mechanics, or the lack thereof. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Hey You	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:37:00 - [62] This re-imburstment is by far, the biggest cause of loss of respect I had for CCP. Selective re-imburstment, it seems. CCP caved into pressure, it seems. Or, a dev/GM's char got scammed by this. I'm honestly disgusted that they got re-imbursed. Scamming has been part of EVE for a long time. What's next? Escrow scams being re-imbursed? Sigh. It just angers me. IPO scams, OK before, but this time it's not? ------------------------------
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:37:00 - [63] Originally by: Toshiro Khan Erm... I belive the reason for this refund is because it was a forum scam.. Now had the scam been done in game and not on the forums, then thats a totally different kettle of fish and kudos. In game scamming = fine and dandy. Forum scamming = a big no no. Kinda makes sence, even though it was a good scam the trade forum is supposed to be a scam free zone. It has never been this way in the past. Ingame for ingame scams were always allowed, wherever the scam was posted. Thraeds on the forum proved to be scammy were locked. If they have changed the rules, they just mention this. The scammer got ripped off, but worse than everyone else. They got ripped off by a player, and they knew the risks. The scammer got ripped off by the GMs, with no warning.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:38:00 - [64] Edited by: HippoKing on 13/06/2006 21:44:42 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Scary Noises What the hell? When people started throwing their money down the giant toilet that was Internet IPOs recently, no one got their investment back when the company selling robotic frogs or whatnot tanked. This is an EXTREME level of stupidity, it does not deserve special protection. But those companies "tanked." Their owners weren't allowed to run away with the money and avoid legal prosecution. Their owners went bankrupt too. This scam wasn't "cool", it wasn't "skillful," it was simply an abuse of game mechanics, or the lack thereof. It was effective, and people lost out. Thats how scams work. He abused nothing. Frankly, I'm surprised and more than a little disappointed you have come out on this like you have. This is eve, exactly as you know and expect it to be. Does that all change when its you who loses ISK? edit: also, did you see this coming?
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:43:00 - [65] Originally by: Toshiro Khan In game scamming = fine and dandy. Forum scamming = a big no no. Kinda makes sence, even though it was a good scam the trade forum is supposed to be a scam free zone. When the first IPO scams apeared (those that did not burn high profire players), everyone asked for clarification. We got it, the sell orders forum rules post was edited, and a couple mods asked GMs and posted, Dark shikari talked with GMs / forum mods etc. *** 5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.* [more rules] Clarification: Scams (unless involving real life money) are allowed in game, and while other forms of scams are not allowed here, posting it has no repercussions in game. *** This is the original text, as i c/p -ed it in my post here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=350625&page=2 [Post 47] Thats the reason why Artemis did this scam. It was allowed as per all rules. Scaming in game is fine. Scamming on forums is against forum rules (so he should get one forum warning). The text clearly shows that scamming on forums does not lead to any consequences in game.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:45:00 - [66] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/06/2006 21:45:28 Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Scary Noises What the hell? When people started throwing their money down the giant toilet that was Internet IPOs recently, no one got their investment back when the company selling robotic frogs or whatnot tanked. This is an EXTREME level of stupidity, it does not deserve special protection. But those companies "tanked." Their owners weren't allowed to run away with the money and avoid legal prosecution. Their owners went bankrupt too. This scam wasn't "cool", it wasn't "skillful," it was simply an abuse of game mechanics, or the lack thereof. It was effective, and people lost out. Thats how scams work. He abused nothing. Frankly, I'm surprised and more than a little disappointed you have come out on this like you have. This is eve, exactly as you know and expect it to be. Does that all change when its you who loses ISK? You don't seem to understand. CCP protects against scams, generally, which have no in-game method of protection. For example, escrow scams are easy to defend against, through paying attention, as are corp theft and trade scams. But an IPO scam has absolutely no means of protection against scamming: one simply has to trust the IPO owner, and there's absolutely no recourse in any case. Its exactly the same as if someone scammed you for a GTC--there is no recourse except a petition. It isn't like an escrow scam. Finally, the most important reason is simple: Without some sort of protection against IPO scams, the EVE stock market will not happen. Its that simple. CCP wants it to happen, and so they have put in protection. Oh, and also note that CCP as I have said many times has a history of changing rules after the fact and applying them to the original situation, as in the Zombie Corp/Yulai incident with CONCORD avoidance. Nobody seemed to complain then, so why are they complaining now? --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Jaeger Orlofsson	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:46:00 - [67] Originally by: Toshiro Khan Erm... I belive the reason for this refund is because it was a forum scam.. Now had the scam been done in game and not on the forums, then thats a totally different kettle of fish and kudos. In game scamming = fine and dandy. Forum scamming = a big no no. Kinda makes sence, even though it was a good scam the trade forum is supposed to be a scam free zone. Lets see refunds on the other scam IPOs then.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:49:00 - [68] The Eve stock market is based on trust. Take the ISS, which started the whole thing. It was the ISS' reputation that made all the initial investors (including myself) invest. Trust is what makes people ready to give up their ISK, and the skill in this scam came from gaining trust. You saw an IPO scam coming, and you avoided Stingy's plan like the plague, even though it was legit, because you didn't trust him. This guy was smart enough to get the backing and trust of those who had a reputation (Omber Zombie) and use this to acquire the trust of the investors. He succeeded wonderfully. All of a sudden, all the investors who knew they had no recourse if it went ****-up are up in arms because "it couldn't possibly happen to me, ohnoes, i sent ISK to someone i had never seen before and he didn't send it back". Why should they be refunded now? They knew the risks when they invested. Did they think it was just a free ISK button?
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:50:00 - [69] Originally by: Dark Shikari Nobody seemed to complain then, so why are they complaining now? Because we all lost money on some kind of scam. And here you are explaining why your case was special when it was not regardless of 100s of pages that you are writing in defense of this action. If CCP's goal is to nurture IPOs they could do it WITHOUT refunding money in this case. They could just change the rules as they did and make losses stick.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:53:00 - [70] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/06/2006 21:55:05 Originally by: Rthor Originally by: Dark Shikari Nobody seemed to complain then, so why are they complaining now? Because we all lost money on some kind of scam. And here you are explaining why your case was special when it was not regardless of 100s of pages that you are writing in defense of this action. If CCP's goal is to nurture IPOs they could do it WITHOUT refunding money in this case. They could just change the rules as they did and make losses stick. A lot of people lost money in the Zombie Inc. attack on Yulai too. How is this any different? CCP does change the rules and apply them ex post facto, and nobody has seen anything wrong with this in the past. Originally by: HippoKing All of a sudden, all the investors who knew they had no recourse if it went ****-up are up in arms because "it couldn't possibly happen to me, ohnoes, i sent ISK to someone i had never seen before and he didn't send it back". Why should they be refunded now? They knew the risks when they invested. Did they think it was just a free ISK button? Because this guy proved that there was absolutely no way to guarantee an IPO whatsoever. Any investor would simply be guessing at the veracity of the IPO, unlike in real life. What the hell is the point of a stock market that depends soley on the role of the dice as to whether the IPO owner is honest or not? I'm probably out of this thread for now. Flame all you want, but CCP's decision is made. This was a lame, stupid scam with absolutely no class. Maybe if they refunded Istvaan's corporate theft, I would begin to become worried. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Hey You	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:57:00 - [71] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/06/2006 21:55:05 Originally by: Rthor Originally by: Dark Shikari Nobody seemed to complain then, so why are they complaining now? Because we all lost money on some kind of scam. And here you are explaining why your case was special when it was not regardless of 100s of pages that you are writing in defense of this action. If CCP's goal is to nurture IPOs they could do it WITHOUT refunding money in this case. They could just change the rules as they did and make losses stick. A lot of people lost money in the Zombie Inc. attack on Yulai too. How is this any different? CCP does change the rules and apply them ex post facto, and nobody has seen anything wrong with this in the past. I wasn't around with the Zombie attack, but I have a question, and this is what ticks me off alot. Did they only re-imburse the people on the latest attack? Did they re-imburse everyone? Or did they not re-imburse at all? They should have changed the forum rules, if they felt it was necessary. Fine. But the re-imbursing ISK was pure caving into pressure. ------------------------------
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.13 21:58:00 - [72] Originally by: Dark Shikari CCP does change the rules and apply them ex post facto, and nobody has seen anything wrong with this in the past. You would be surprised no doubt if you found out that vast majority of players would be against a refund to specific person. "Nobody has seen anything wrong...", are you kidding me? I think that most of the people who lost stuff either to a scam or mistake or game mechanics and never even bothered to petition it do not agree with your claims that everybody agrees with your point of view.
Minuet	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:00:00 - [73] Quote: Because we all lost money on some kind of scam. And here you are explaining why your case was special when it was not regardless of 100s of pages that you are writing in defense of this action. If CCP's goal is to nurture IPOs they could do it WITHOUT refunding money in this case. They could just change the rules as they did and make losses stick. Actually, not everyone was looking for their money back. (see here)
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:00:00 - [74] And people wonder why I don't like GM's playing the game...
Pesadel0	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:01:00 - [75] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Pathetic. My respect for CCP has dropped far lower than I thought it ever would. Might as well add instanced asteroid belts while you're at it. Amazing how easily the eve community is swayed by forum *****s If this is true and they got their money returned ,hell my hearth starts to bleed,what next?
Hey You	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:04:00 - [76] Edited by: Hey You on 13/06/2006 22:04:27 Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Pathetic. My respect for CCP has dropped far lower than I thought it ever would. Might as well add instanced asteroid belts while you're at it. Amazing how easily the eve community is swayed by forum ***s Hell hath no fury like a forum ***'s. ------------------------------
Scary Noises	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:06:00 - [77] Actually, even in the real world market, insiders can often come out ahead even as their company heads towards death. Sure, it has a lot more involved thinking than the Eve IPO scam, but the result is the same. People give money away on pure speculation and other people run off with it. This is basically someone asking for ISK with no security and people giving it to them. Sure they may promise returns, but why would any sane person make that gamble without some real knowledge or history? There are levels of absolute idiocy that do not deserve to have ingame protection, and this is one of them.
Potenza	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:07:00 - [78] Edited by: Potenza on 13/06/2006 22:07:09 How is this any different than a corp theft? You paid for shares and you recieved shares. (not a scam even by forum rules) You trusted someone with your money (stupid) you got screwed. ItÆs called risk vs. reward. If this trend continues all corp thefts will be petitioned. What about lag/fleet losses. The simple truth is YOU made a mistake and now want CCP to save you from YOUR OWN stupidity. This is a very dangerous sign at what CCP is letting EVE become and despite all the whines about WCS/ECM/ships etc. this is the first thing that truly worries me about what EVE is becoming. I joined this game because it was something different from the rest of the MMO market. That is why EVE has one of the most loyal fan bases compared to other MMOs out there. I would highly advice CCP to remember why the players like EVE and not simply give a knee jerk reaction to a temporary situation. The whines will subside but a massive change to the very nature of EVE could do alot more damage than a few player lossing some ISK.
Emperor ChopSuey	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:07:00 - [79] Originally by: Ariu Devine I've tried to keep up with all the posts over the last 24 hours dealing with this. And to be quite honest, I dont think I have seen anyone really whine about losing their money. There were those who felt certain ways. But I believe it comes down to people have finally had enough and that something needs to be done about it. As players, there is only so much we can do. And as the game expands, the devs have to be willing to expand with us. My main concern now is that the refund has happened, that alot of people will just shut up and not continue on in pursuit of fixing the system. But expect that everytime something like this happens, to be saved. And I dont want that. There is no broken system here. People trusted other players they didn't know with lots of isk and no collateral. They are fools and should have been parted with their isk, it is one form of natural selection. This is pretty unbelievable.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:09:00 - [80] Well ... looks like you made terrible mistake, and now dont have the courage to admit it, Dark shikari. There are lots of ways to avoid an IPO scam. How about .. um .. background research? How about ... not sending ISK? People spend hours upon hours running missions to make 100m, and you expect to ask a few simple questions, then hand over 500m or even 2000m to a complete stranger who said: "trust me, Omber zombie does". You completely twist the principle around: in your world, suddenly everyone is asumed to be honest instead of otherwise. The random guy who wants 25b from you now only needs to make a post without spelling mistakes, and voila - he could not be a crook, and if he is, its an exploit that cannot be defended against. What happened to making other people earn your trust? Look at O'Mara, he did not ask for 25b right away, he published reports, worked hard and pioneered a concept. You may laugh at his pathetic dividends, but from all IPOs out there, its still the most professional (and profitable, shares went from 170k to 1-5m) one. But if you ask questions and take your time to research his claims, someone else will get the shares from artemis the great, and they will sky rocket like all the other shares, so better get in NOW NOW NOW. You are to thick to realise that it was your fault. Others accepted their mistakes, yet you scream about how the evil scammer left you no way to defend yourself. He just clouded your mind, or in pvp speak: you got fragged. Same thing happened to mirial. How the times change. The shame you (should) feel wont go away, no matter how much ISK CCP sends you.
Tristan Acoma	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:12:00 - [81] All I can say is I'm starting to question my time invested. (This isn't said to generate drama - and I don't think anyone gives a damn if I leave or play :) ) But it shows how arbitrary the GM system is..... and that is frightening to me in many ways on many levels... It's also grossly unfair to the other folks who have fallen victim to this ploy before It's grossly unfair to the scammer (despite being low down dirty rotten, etc,etc it still took quite a bit of work. If they lose the ISK... there goes the player driven content and the "frontier" aspect of EVE that makes things interesting to me. It's grossly unfair to the scammed - players never learn if their mistakes are cushioned each and every time. Last thing we need are more self insufficent players. Lastly, I suspect it's unfair to the GM staff - if you think petition volumes won't go up after this, you're a fool
Nahia Senne	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:13:00 - [82] so idiots got rewarded for their stupidity? way to go CCP.
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:49:00 - [83] This is awesome community input LOVE to all the HATERS, SHAME to all the believers ( me too) I'm loving it ! (sill have not been re-imbursed, nor have I petitioned for it)
Alisha Lewarx	Posted - 2006.06.13 22:53:00 - [84] well i'm still hesitant to take all this for a fact without an official statement, but as someone has pointed out that "Other scams MAY have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion." seems to have been added to the rules today, i guess i'll throw in another 2 isk before heading off to bed... 1) this has got to be a bad joke to everyone who got scammed so far and seemingly just didn't whine enough 2) "at the GMs discretion" is a polite way of saying "if any of our game mechanics are faulty we'll just resort to arbitrary rulings instead of taking responsibility and fixing it" 3) this is the first interesting topic that i actually actively followed on the forum. as such i find it rather sad to see how problems are handled. i just can't shake the feeling that the bottom line philosophy here is that it's better to pisz off one customer (janette) than to pisz off multiple customers (the people that invested in sve) 4) respect to all those involved who still point out that a proper implementation of a stock market would be more important than arbitrary reimbursements
Taurequis	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:08:00 - [85] Originally by: stingy CEO This is awesome community input LOVE to all the HATERS, SHAME to all the believers ( me too) I'm loving it ! (sill have not been re-imbursed, nor have I petitioned for it) Once again i echo the Stingy... Not petitioned at all, not been re-imbursed and nor do i want too be really... Rules have been clarified which is a start to the ccp response to the extra features we need to keep this new sector of EVE growing. I still await the official response. Best Regards, Taurequis
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:19:00 - [86] Respect to those scammed who do not ask for reimbursment.
Dentara Rast	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:26:00 - [87] Its bullshyt this ccp. Sorry those who invested got scammed but it seems a complete load of ass that forum ***s are getting their own way yet again. Look at history here... numerous ipo scams : The forum *s dont invest in them or back them. Everyone loses out as ccp do nowt. Boo hoo people lose isk and quit. latest ipo scam : forum *s back it. they get scammed. Boo hoo I was scammed ill cry to ccp coz my I win button didnt work. scammed forum ***s get their isk back. I think its clear who the forum moderators are regarding this now, CCP certainly look after their own.... everyone else aint got a chance. Sig removed, lacks game related content. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler
Taurequis	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:27:00 - [88] Edited by: Taurequis on 13/06/2006 23:31:24 Originally by: Rthor Respect to those scammed who do not ask for reimbursment. Tbh i've struggled to find many posts in any of the threads by peeps who actually put cash towards this actually asking for thier cash back. The majority of us (and the post by us you notice) are just wanting a bit more accountability in the whole thing and some clarification and some extra game features. Respect to all non flamers is due. Promote discussion, not locks. Best Regards, Taurequis edit - pls note that its becoming clear that it doesnt even matter if you have petitioned. Some who havnt have got their isk back. Others who have, have not. So peeps should wait for the gm statement before critising anyone, if at all.
stingy CEO	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:32:00 - [89] Yeah as it seems now emotions are high, and the chance of productive discussion is low in this thread, maybe we should just let everyone flame and go to this one or maybe, (more biased but also untainted by flames, this one ?
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:41:00 - [90] this is wrong, he shouldnt get any ISK back. Hope I dont have to go back to SWG now damn need to make a new sig...
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:46:00 - [91] Originally by: Taurequis Edited by: Taurequis on 13/06/2006 23:31:24 Originally by: Rthor Respect to those scammed who do not ask for reimbursment. Tbh i've struggled to find many posts in any of the threads by peeps who actually put cash towards this actually asking for thier cash back. The majority of us (and the post by us you notice) are just wanting a bit more accountability in the whole thing and some clarification and some extra game features. Respect to all non flamers is due. Promote discussion, not locks. Best Regards, Taurequis edit - pls note that its becoming clear that it doesnt even matter if you have petitioned. Some who havnt have got their isk back. Others who have, have not. So peeps should wait for the gm statement before critising anyone, if at all. It just had to be said that just because people got scammed that does not make them stupid. They were not careful with money and they lost it. If they dont want it back then, and I hope not to be patronizing if possible, I think that they learned their lesson and they are on their way to understanding this game and possibly RL also. And this is why Eve is a good game. It really is true that the people who stay on in this game are capable of handling risk. The key to this game is not making enough bad decisions in a row. So if you got scammed here you should learn from this and not make another decision or two in a row that are bad because it could kill you in this game. Helping you to erase the consequences of this scam by reimbursing you only postpones the learning of the lesson of this game which is: learn to handle risk properly. To put it differently you get helped now and all it does is you make another mistake just like this one shortly thereafter.
Toshiro Khan	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:48:00 - [92] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Originally by: Toshiro Khan In game scamming = fine and dandy. Forum scamming = a big no no. Kinda makes sence, even though it was a good scam the trade forum is supposed to be a scam free zone. When the first IPO scams apeared (those that did not burn high profire players), everyone asked for clarification. We got it, the sell orders forum rules post was edited, and a couple mods asked GMs and posted, Dark shikari talked with GMs / forum mods etc. *** 5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.* [more rules] Clarification: Scams (unless involving real life money) are allowed in game, and while other forms of scams are not allowed here, posting it has no repercussions in game. *** This is the original text, as i c/p -ed it in my post here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=350625&page=2 [Post 47] Thats the reason why Artemis did this scam. It was allowed as per all rules. Scaming in game is fine. Scamming on forums is against forum rules (so he should get one forum warning). The text clearly shows that scamming on forums does not lead to any consequences in game. Both you and hippo should read the rules again... 5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.* Clarification: Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY* have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion. Its seems that this time around the GM's discretion went against the scammer and he got bit, those are the breaks and the risks.
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:53:00 - [93] Originally by: Shar Tegral The arguments were not for reimbursement. Just for some method of retaliation. Even if it was nothing more than taking the isk and trashing it. Look in Eve most of the time there is no retaliation. If I lose my ship to somebody and want to track them down to pay them back it just is not going to happen. Even if somehow I will be able to find them and wait for them to log on I can just lose another ship to him or his friends which would be even dumber and entertaining for them. Most of the time there is no retaliation in Eve. This is just something that you have to accept. And asking GMs to help in your retaliation is weak.
Gully Smit	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:55:00 - [94] I think it's time that the world of scamming grows a little. It's time for EVEJAIL! Scammers think they are great once they complete a scam. They only need to complete the transaction. Sadly there is not much chance for retaliation for the crime. In society you can get caught. Why not in EVE! Now if Scammers could be systematically caught and prosecuted by the in-game community that would create a balance that is necessary in this equation. scammers REALLY have it easy. When can we police them as they should be policed....using an in-game venue (judge, jury and jailed). Genuis scammers out there would invite such a challenge...but realistically most will whine if ever they had to deal with being policed(as I keep hearing because of the CCPs actions). It would be interesting if there was an NPC that enabled evidence gathering of some kind. maybe they can be paid npc (stools) that if u pinpoint information ...pay a fee...u can produce hard evidence to prosecute. perhaps a judicial board of ceo's can determine action against players( maybe the stools can reveal alts for the right price). ofcourse if prosecuted...siezure of property to pay fines and court costs would be the way to support the courts..ppl in it. donations from the community to help enforce the policing. Scammers would really have to EARN their accolades. GULLY SMIT----EVEJAIL advocate.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:56:00 - [95] Originally by: Shar Tegral Given that the person violated some of the minimum ethical standards in Eve, i.e. posting a scam on the forums, he should be appluaded for his gumption and justly rewarded with a smack across the mouth. He violated people's feelings, the investors trust, your made up "ethical standards" shared by you and maybe some others - but no rules. I still remember the flamewar where DS and hippo tried to hammer the basic truth that the forums are not protected against someone who stubbornly refused to believe. Oh how the mighty have fallen. New rules have been made. basically stating that if i scam you on forums, laugh about you in your face - nothing might happen. Depending on what GM gets to handle your case. You want retaliation? How about actually doing what all the other victims in eve history could do - attack the evildoer? People that are "flaming" you are just telling you that - you dont deserve any other form of "retaliation". If there will be a games mag doing an article about Artemis, you will get your ISK taken away from you again. Such is life. Or as someone just said: "see that annoys me a little. I should get a benefit for not being dumb in the first place. ah well :)"
Charae	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:56:00 - [96] People speak of the inability to ingame check trust in their defending CCP's reaction, but that's utter BS ofcourse. First of all, scamming is allowed (and glorified) in this game, more often than not people will call it a form of PVP, and as long as it doesn't hit you people will laugh about it. Suddenly (when it hits the higher profile peeps) people will 'invent' all kinds of rules, bend the known rules to be in their favor. Some time ago We had a 'nice' discussion with Bhaal on how CCP would/would not interfere with forum based scams. In the end, what it came down to is that unless there's RL money involved, scamming is allowed. If posted on the forums it may have repercussions for the forum account but NEVER any form of action/reimbursement ingame. And that's how it should be. The whole 'there's no ingame check to see if it's legit' is BS. What if someone is stopped by pirates, a highly glorified action btw, we all laugh when another dumbass gets caught and gets send back to 3 weeks of mining if it's a newbie, we tell him to STFU, he's dumb, he learned his lesson, LOLZ!!!!1... oh and he can't vent his frustration either, cause that would be smacktalking and that is considered to be honorless.... or something. Now this guy pays his ransom HAVING TO TRUST THE PIRATE NOT BLOWING UP HIS SHIP FOR WHATEVER REASON, BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW HOW TRUSTWORTHY PEOPLE AT THE BUSINESS END OF A GUN ARE, but then gets blown up anyway. So he 'trusts' the pirate with his money, but gets blown up. He had NO way to verify the trustworthyness of that pirate, so according to our forumwarriors newly implemented 'rules' he should be reimbursed by CCP. However, this doesn't happen ofcourse and we all go "tough luck man, if I see him I'll blow him up for ya" Mind you, I'm not condemning piracy (although it may have looked that way), the normal reaction to any loss/scam/wardec/grief is 'tough luck man, hope you recover from it, game mechanics give you the option to hunt/kill that guy". As it SHOULD be, but suddenly with the reimbursements for this scam right here, it seems as if some people/corps/alliances are more similar than others.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:58:00 - [97] Originally by: Toshiro Khan nonsense I cannot believe what you just wrote. Please, check again, before looking REAALLY stupid.
Dinique	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:01:00 - [98] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Argenton Sayvers I cannot believe it. They changed the rules. As you can clearly see, the sell order forum rules got changed AFTER this scam. Artemis did the same mistake as everyone else that is involved in this drama. Trust. He trusted the GMs to be fair and enforce the rules. From now on, there are no rules in eve. They change the rules ex post facto all the time. Do you remember when Zombie got banned after the Yulai incident? Classic case. Anyways, I'm happy this was done. It was a change that needed to be made, and an example needed to be made of the new rule. And my ISK is back in my wallet You've GOT to be ***** kidding me!! You don't deserve to get that money back! You lost it and its your own damn fault! Scams have always been allowed in this game. Seriously, what the ** is this then? You were stupid enough to hand over your ISK! If you can't afford to lose it, don't fly it. If you can't afford to lose it don't invest it! If you can't afford to lose it DONT HAND IT OVER TO A COMPLETE STRANGER PERHAPS EH?! Ofcourse you are happy, YOU got your money back. You would be whistling a different tune if you stood on the other side. PATHETIC. You don't deserve a single cent returned. _____ There's so many different worlds So many different suns And we have just one world But we live in different ones
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:07:00 - [99] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers You want retaliation? How about actually doing what all the other victims in eve history could do - attack the evildoer? People that are "flaming" you are just telling you that - you dont deserve any other form of "retaliation". I have not been flamed. I have not invested in this matter nor do I care one way or the other about those who did. However I do not so blithely disregard the intelligent discussion that many have added to this debate (pro and con). I tend to believe in the power of reading comprehension and have applied that obviously foreign concept to the discussion. Submit News
Gully Smit	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:12:00 - [100] why should retaliation be limited to blowing em up? how one dimensional. why not limit scammer to weapons too?
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:26:00 - [101] There is much more at stake then the small, and in the great scheme of things unimportant, investment scene. Thats why people disregard all the meaningful discussion, and vent their opinions on this multitude of topics, mixed in one thread. there is nothing wrong with discussing "solutions" that have no direct connection to this farce. One has to acknowledge that things have happened today that have shaken the very foundations on which eve is based. Well was based ;)
Cudaya Ebsldes	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:39:00 - [102] CCP kills the stock market. What else is new. What incentive now is there to be diligent in any respect as mommy will come in and give back the lollypop that the nasty little 14 yr old girl (so the toon looks like) freely was given by the gulible. ItÆs not risk vs. reward. ItÆs risk free; at least for the elites of EVE. I guess no one has even heard of the concept of bank failure and the idea of loss? No, this is just a game for the brave who never loose; like in the picture Westworld.
fmercury	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:42:00 - [103] We're headed down a slippery slope here, CCP
Alenia DiCaan	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:52:00 - [104] Wow, one step closer to World of Warcraft. Guys, my ship blew up but I spend 8 hours a day posting on the forums so the GMs respawned it. Yay!
Rawne Karrde	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:04:00 - [105] A slippery slope indeed. On this one they really can't win. Slippery slope #1. Do nothing and watch the forums fill with IPO scamms that destroy all the work countless people have worked very hard to establish. CCP want a stock market in EvE heck it was printed on the box of the game when I bought it back in may 2003. The establishment of a stock market in eve benefits this game immensely. Slippery slope #2. Begin to re-imburse scams not only creating a precedent of re-imbursement, but also as some say removing the risk from those who lost isk fair and square. Making this kind of scam on the forums not allowed. In this case the slippery slope of doing nothing would hurt eve much more than the other slope. I support ccp in taking action but what irritates me is that once again CCP shows a fundamental problem with their company. CCP is and i fear only reactionary when dealing with things. EvE changes quickly and even with all their hirings and expansions of their employees they still cannot keep up with the needs of the game. It irritates me to no end that it is now over 3 years since this game went live and there is no stock market in game. But oh wait we get new guns, ammo, and ships to blow things up with all the time. CCP shame on you, if you had done your jobs, then this issue wouldn't have come up. Because of your lack of foresight and disinterest in working on game concepts that are not dealing with direct space combat, you are now forced to choose between these two evils.
Michael Nester	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:09:00 - [106] This really reeks to alot of people of CCP favoritism because forum hot shots were some of the ones who took most of the brunt of this scam. Instead of refunding the isk a system should be put in place to prevent something like this instead of just rolling over and giving the forum hotshot whiny crowd all their money back, it really reeks this does.
Alenia DiCaan	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:13:00 - [107] Originally by: Rawne Karrde In this case the slippery slope of doing nothing would hurt eve much more than the other slope. I disagree. The contracts system is on the horizon. This was a simple appeasement for a completely legit scam. This is no different than a newbie jumping into low sec and getting ganked. The experienced players laugh and say "that's Eve!". But with this decision, Eve is a little less Eve.
Tenpenny Six	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:18:00 - [108] CCP needs to give the cash back to the scammer. All you morons who just lined up to fork your cash over deserve to lose it for not being careful. I wonder how many of the people who got scammed live in Empire and how many live in 0.0... would make an interesting chart to see who and how much.
Ashley Sky	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:19:00 - [109] One of the things that makes EVE so special is the ability to be a villain. Be it thief, scammer, pirate, or galactic tyrant, social engineering is one of the more interesting and clever ways to win at your evil trade. Events like this prove that there is less room in EVE for character styles and true creativity. Take away the risk, and all you have is a pathetic little carebear space simulator where the biggest group hug and ship you can buy on Ebay is king. It's clear that EVE is no longer based on player content, and character, and instead on how many accounts CCP has in the big isk treadmill. The one thing that sets CCP apart from other MMOGs is slowly eroding away. Truly Pathetic.
TribalBleb	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:38:00 - [110] I can't believe people got their ISK back, thatÆs just so stupid WhatÆs the deal here? this is nothing like CCP at all, did he scammed a dev or gm or something So whatÆs next? reimbursing stuff people lose in high sec, reimbursing overpriced items people bought by accident?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:05:00 - [111] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Shar Tegral, i edited my post to show that i was not directly addressing you after i responded to your quote. I took no offense hence my statement, "I have not been flamed." Applied to you as well as any portion of this thread and associated threads. It's a hot topic button for many people. After all of the injustices that have been allowed to happen under the pretense of "darwinism" it is a shock that this situation has brought about some redress. And the manner of redress troubles all of us including many of those who would benefit from the return of their monies. Many have said "Slippery Slope" about this situation not recognizing that we have been travelling that slope since beta. This is just one of those defining moments. Sadly many wish to define it as "the end of Eve". (If I had an isk for everytime that* has been said. A few times by me!!*) For myself, I am simply seeing which people offer something worth reading, like you for instance, and pretty much adding those who don't add anything useful to the list of those who do scams or are bitter that they've been stung in the past. Stuff like this does bring out the extremes in the community. Nothing like a crucible to make people show their real colors eh? Submit News
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:08:00 - [112] Originally by: Shar Tegral For myself, I am simply seeing which people offer something worth reading, like you for instance, and pretty much adding those who don't add anything useful to the list of those who do scams or are bitter that they've been stung in the past. Stuff like this does bring out the extremes in the community. Nothing like a crucible to make people show their real colors eh? This is not your blog. If you dont get it its OK but please dont derail this thread.
BloodSpoon	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:14:00 - [113] reimbursement for anything IPO or the like is just plain wrong...there's no 2 ways around it or a way to justify that course of action is this a sign of things to come? are we really going to aid those who get swindled? _________________________________________________________ m0o?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:18:00 - [114] Originally by: Rthor This is not your blog. This is my blog. It's been around longer than you have... I have no fear of blogging my thoughts there. However here I add something to the discussion along with a few personal thoughts of my own. /me shrugs and dismisses the hostility. Submit News
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:20:00 - [115]
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:29:00 - [116] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Rthor This is not your blog. This is my blog. It's been around longer than you have... I have no fear of blogging my thoughts there. However here I add something to the discussion along with a few personal thoughts of my own. /me shrugs and dismisses the hostility. due dilligence
Ariu Devine	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:32:00 - [117] Originally by: Michael Nester Instead of refunding the isk a system should be put in place to prevent something like this instead of just rolling over and giving the forum hotshot whiny crowd all their money back, it really reeks this does. Um... please read the other threads.. that is what was ASKED for. That is what other threads BEEN TALKING about. Most of those that go scammed that were vocal about it even said dont worry about the isk, just put something in place! -- Always Seeking. Never Finding.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:49:00 - [118] Originally by: Rthor due dilligence Advice you would be well advised to take. And now, you bore me with your trolling. Submit News
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.14 03:02:00 - [119] Originally by: Ariu Devine Originally by: Michael Nester Instead of refunding the isk a system should be put in place to prevent something like this instead of just rolling over and giving the forum hotshot whiny crowd all their money back, it really reeks this does. Um... please read the other threads.. that is what was ASKED for. That is what other threads BEEN TALKING about. Most of those that go scammed that were vocal about it even said dont worry about the isk, just put something in place! And what happened? Not only did we get our money back, but the system that has been put in place is even WORSE then the previous one. While the forum rules clearly stated that all sorts of scams that dont involve GTC / Characters will have no ingame consequences, the current rules state that they "may" lead to action. not "will". "may". So if me and Dark shikari band together and do EXACTLY the same scam, with exactly the same "lolz pwned" message, you might get nil, just because the GM responsible for the current course of action is on vacation... highly unlikely, yet supported by the rules.
Berious	Posted - 2006.06.14 03:37:00 - [120] Hey I bought some shoddy bookmarks a few months ago, how about my 7 million back? Very, very bad move CCP. Sets a horrible precedent.
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2006.06.14 04:02:00 - [121] Nooo, NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo Since when is CCP bothering with the sand in other peoples vagina? Originally by: Oveur I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
fmercury	Posted - 2006.06.14 04:04:00 - [122] By the way, whatever happened to this: Quote: Items or isk lost to a scam may only be reimbursed if the scammer used a verified bug to hide his intentions to scam, and only after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM.
Fortress Cell	Posted - 2006.06.14 04:59:00 - [123] Thank you VERY much CCP - When I saw my ISK.. I was thinking there is no way I made that in 1 night heh. Signature Gallery Availible Upon Request In-Game.
Dinique	Posted - 2006.06.14 06:37:00 - [124] Essentially what this all means is that you can't make a bad IPO investment. It sickens me that you people got reimbursed for being idiots. And DS, in earlier posts before this all went down, you PREDICTED an IPO scam, and you sure as hell didn't voice any concern about their validity then. The only reason you are on the side you are on, is because it suits you financially. I atleast thought you had some integrity. But personal interest comes before everything else, correct? _____ There's so many different worlds So many different suns And we have just one world But we live in different ones
spurious signal	Posted - 2006.06.14 07:14:00 - [125] This is disgusting to be honest. When small people, small corps, non-forum warriors get scammed they get given the finger and told "LOLZ go back to wow n00b, scamming = pvp ROFLOLZ!!11". When big names with big mouths get scammed CCP gets out the band-aid and lollypops and makes it all better for them. I think EVE just became a different game than the EVE we all used to know and love. RIP EVE, we loved you well.
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.06.14 07:27:00 - [126] ***** move ccp
Infrared Raven	Posted - 2006.06.14 07:48:00 - [127] CCP had to start somewhere, I like it. Now give us some additional features to protect or lock down money, etc. and the stock market is on... To the "one step closer to wow"-, "rip eve"-, "idiots deserved to get scammed"-criers: You are pathetic.
Richard Face	Posted - 2006.06.14 08:16:00 - [128] This decision is asinine, trite, bovine, oafish, doltish, blundering, flaky, inane, capricious, retrograde and fatuous (in that particular order) Next you will be reimbursing people who fly into PVP with their highs filled with mining lasers because THEY'RE CALLED LASERS DAMMIT AND I HAD AN HONEST EXPECTATION THEY WOULD HURT THINGS
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.06.14 09:43:00 - [129] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 14/06/2006 09:43:53 Have to agree - disgustingly pathetic policy switch MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
spurious signal	Posted - 2006.06.14 10:21:00 - [130] Originally by: Infrared Raven CCP had to start somewhere, I like it. Now give us some additional features to protect or lock down money, etc. and the stock market is on... To the "one step closer to wow"-, "rip eve"-, "idiots deserved to get scammed"-criers: You are pathetic. You're in a bit of a minority with those views. CCP have changed the rules here, and they did it without informing anyone. To edit the sticky with the rules on this forum AFTER reimbursing people and not make a big public announcement about it reeks of underhandedness and hasty, badly-thought out decisions. EVE has always, ALWAYS been about pvp at all levels. Never trust anyone, buyer beware, no hand-outs, scamming is and always has been part of the game. If that's gone now then this game has changed. CCP have also always been upfront, honest and shown the highest integrity and respect for us players. This move undermines all of that.
Heikki	Posted - 2006.06.14 10:45:00 - [131] In my not so humble opinion, CCP really should issue some kind of statement about the issue; it does have huge impact in Stock market and Scam mini profession parts of Eve. For example: - If people petition older similar scams, will they get reimbursements as well? Or what are the conditions required for such reimbursement? That is, what makes this scam so special? (IMHO this point alone is worth of statement from CCP, to avoid handling those petitions). - What kind of scams will be reimbursed; on what kind of conditions would-be investors can assume CCP to help them out? Or will it depend on how many petitions one makes and who gets to handle them? - Did the scammer (Janette) lose her gains? If she did, why? She broke no existing rules as far as I'm aware. If she didn't, we got bunch of ISK out of nothing (abusable as well). Will the future scammers lose theirs? It's a harsh world and thats why I love it. Of course will always try make it easier for me, but it should through my actions, not by CCP pampering. -Lasse really surprised and worried
Danks	Posted - 2006.06.14 12:03:00 - [132] Total BS, the isk should never have been refunded. I've lost a lot of faith in CCP :(
Herona	Posted - 2006.06.14 12:44:00 - [133] Was the ISK reimbursed due to personal gain of the GM or was it to try to preserve the stock market dream? I dont care witch one it is, both reasons are no excuse to do this. 1. Why would it be allowed for a GM to take back his own mistakes? And dont give me that I'm GM and I do what I want to do attitute. 2. Such things are bound to happen again, just look at real stock markets, why do they work? They work cuz ppl take the risk and do bad invesments, not good ones(Didnt you know the bank allways wins? ...exept for that one time when a genious got the bank bankrupt he worked for, others gained ****loads on cuz of that). and if it makes a dent in somonce stock, are you going to whine cuz i only got xxxxxxx ISK this month (cry) last month they gave me xxxxxxxxxxxxx. well buhu... Dont you know there are loads of corporations who thrive on scamming ppl. Calling your home, selling you somthing and then you get nothing, cuz that corp doznt exist the nex day. Be more carefull next time check how long the person has been in that corp he's in, and how long time he spent in other corps. If his Employment history is long hes most likely untrustworthy if he cant stay in one place for long, If his Employment history is very short, he might be an alt or dosent play that much... Either way dont trust anyone with more mony than you can afford to loose at that time. Are you also going to backtrack all the ISK that PPL have been tossing around while Gambling on EVE-Radio? if so id like my One billion back, so i can give it to Artemis for fooling so many.
MoLeH	Posted - 2006.06.14 13:41:00 - [134] If they got there isk returned from this cos there is no guarentee thats its true, CCP need to start browsing logs and returning billions of isk to people who got factory and lab slot scammed, trading those was completely based on trust also. -------------------------------------- http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/mole12/Mole-sig.jpg Please ensure your signature is 24,000 bytes or less - Udat
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.14 14:00:00 - [135] I remember how an upstart reseller got scammed out of 500m and left the game (he later came back, but is no longer trading): Someone offered a fleet tempest for 700m (back then it was a very good deal, they sold for 900+), but here is the catch: someone escrowed it to him for 500m, and he happens to not have enough cash ready to claim it. Its a win-win situation for both parties, he makes 200m from the deal after all. Since there is no way to make sure that the seller is actually telling the truth, this kind of scam should be refunded as well. After all, he is abusing the obvious lack of game mechanics for his monetary gains. The only thing you can do is to NOT send a random stranger 500m, and therefor miss out on a damn good deal.
Nira Li	Posted - 2006.06.14 14:20:00 - [136] What the hell? I'm dissapointed at CCP for this move. This is probably the first step to turn this game into My Little Pony... There's nothing wrong with being the "ultimate evil" and hurt ppl as much as possible with legal tactics. There must be a risk with playing with the market in eve as it's also a way of pvp. I hope CCP thinks twice about this move and hopefully don't make impossible to scam anyone at all. No sympathy for fools! You Will Cry My Name Funny Guys
Fortress Cell	Posted - 2006.06.14 14:38:00 - [137] Im willing to bet more people are happier about this than not. End. Signature Gallery Availible Upon Request In-Game.
Berious	Posted - 2006.06.14 15:10:00 - [138] Yup, who couldn't be happy with retroactive rule changes and apparent GM favours for forum superstars.
Alisha Lewarx	Posted - 2006.06.14 15:11:00 - [139] Edited by: Alisha Lewarx on 14/06/2006 15:11:33 Originally by: Argenton Sayvers The only thing you can do is to NOT send a random stranger 500m, and therefor miss out on a damn good deal. if you can sell a tempest for 900+, why in god's name would you sell it for 700? if people believe a story like this they should be legally dispossessed. imho it is not good to compare unbelievable stupidity with a well executed scam. Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Since there is no way to make sure that the seller is actually telling the truth, this kind of scam should be refunded as well. After all, he is abusing the obvious lack of game mechanics for his monetary gains. from the single fact (sell forum rules changed) we know so far, the reimbursements have been a completely arbitrary ruling with no deeper reason behind it. we have already talked a lot about how game mechanics should be used to improve the way the eve stock market works. but one thing that keeps falling under the table because it's rarely said in an unemotional context: investment is a risk. as an investor you are supposed to make a judgement about who you trust your money with. talking of the sve scam some of the blame can be squarely put on Exelsior for letting himself be called trustee, which turned out to be a 100% useless and misleading function, and EMFi manager for conducting and publishing an interview, seemingly without actually doing a backup check on the things said in that interview. as for OZ, as far as i understand all he did was confirm that the business model was valid (which it was). so apart from Exelsior and EMFi manager doing a bad job, 99% of the blame can be squarely put on the investors. YOU CANNOT HAND OVER ENORMOUS SUMS OF MONEY TO A STRANGER WITH NO PRIOR ENTREPRENEURIAL RECORD. that's pretty much as bluntly as i can put it. you will always face a risk when handing over money to someone else, but arguably the risk can be immensely mitigated by thinking about who you are going to hand how much money. the sve investors did a very bad job as investors, it is ridiculous that ccp reimburses them. no sane reallife investor would give 25B to a stranger with no record of entrepreneurial success. if this is anything but an overhasted reaction by an inexperienced GM, i officially retract my foolish statement: Originally by: Alisha Lewarx 1) since we're playing their game, i guess it's fair that they can always decide whatever they want. PS: Im willing to bet more people are stupid than not. Originally by: Fortress Cell Im willing to bet more people are happier about this than not. End.
Ktor	Posted - 2006.06.14 15:20:00 - [140] I want my isk back for Moon Miners Anonymous. A scam perpetuated by the forums with isk gathered ingame through shares transfer feature. Exactly as this scam was done. I petitioned a GM and was told that the scam was allowed and that I wouldn't get my money back. I dealt with that and have moved on. Now this happens and everyone gets there money back? Sorry but this is flat out crap and a kick in the teeth to those of us scammed by IPO's in the forums. All warfare is based on deception. There is no place where espionage is not used. Offer the enemy bait to lure him. Sun-Tzu
Shimpu	Posted - 2006.06.14 15:35:00 - [141] Originally by: Emperor ChopSuey Originally by: Ariu Devine I've tried to keep up with all the posts over the last 24 hours dealing with this. And to be quite honest, I dont think I have seen anyone really whine about losing their money. There were those who felt certain ways. But I believe it comes down to people have finally had enough and that something needs to be done about it. As players, there is only so much we can do. And as the game expands, the devs have to be willing to expand with us. My main concern now is that the refund has happened, that alot of people will just shut up and not continue on in pursuit of fixing the system. But expect that everytime something like this happens, to be saved. And I dont want that. There is no broken system here. People trusted other players they didn't know with lots of isk and no collateral. They are fools and should have been parted with their isk, it is one form of natural selection. This is pretty unbelievable. Exactly. The one difference in this case is that the scammed people gave their "good" names before cross checking what they are up to. "If you can't guarantee for someone, don't do it!". Reimbursing this is just pathetic. Bad day for Eve and people who prefer self responsibility over sanctioned kindergarten. Originally by: Seleene This is what happens when you eat the red M&M's
Iantine	Posted - 2006.06.14 16:22:00 - [142] I'm not going to debate on whether returning the ISK was right or wrong (For one thing, I havn't gotten mine back yet, if ever). However, there is one thing people (in particular, those claiming that GMs stopping scams will turn Eve into carebear land) are missing: This scam was not due to the naivety or laziness of those scammed. Every meta-game tool investors have to determine the validity of the scam was used. The age of Janette's character was checked, her main was found out, a trustee was placed in the corp, screenshots were taken of the corp materials Janette was donating, EMFi conducted an interview with the new CEO. The most experienced stock brokers in the game examined the stock and gave it a thumbs up. The fact that they were wrong is not due to any failing of theirs, its proof that as the game currently stands there is no way to verify stock purchases. The vast majority of those who complained about the scam didn't ask for their money back, they asked that CCP add a way to prevent these kinds of scams in the future. I assume the CCP devs and GMs want a stock market, and with all the copycat scams that this one would have sparked the only way the stock market would haved survived would be if the GMs didn't allow them, or the Devs completely recoded how stock works. Ideally both, because face it, if there's a loophole somewhere a player will find it.
Treylis	Posted - 2006.06.14 16:32:00 - [143] This is horribly idiotic, and I can't believe CCP has refunded money. A slippery slope and bad precedent, indeed.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.14 16:41:00 - [144] Originally by: Iantine This scam was not due to the naivety or laziness of those scammed. And here you are so fundamentally wrong. People made a short list of warning signs to protect them against scammers. They made fake rules, and janette played by these fake rules. All our great IPO share analysts lived in a fake world where perfect spelling, and a employment history guaranteed a scam-proof IPO. Everyone crying reminds me of people who try to sprinkle holy water in the face of an insane human killer who drinks blood.
Exelsior	Posted - 2006.06.14 16:44:00 - [145] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers people who try to sprinkle holy water in the face of an insane human killer who drinks blood. My Blog with freighter services/preliminary IPO business plan
Alisha Lewarx	Posted - 2006.06.14 16:45:00 - [146] Originally by: Iantine This scam was not due to the naivety or laziness of those scammed. 1) how in the world would you come to this conclusion? 2) what are you saying to the people who deemed sve to be a doubtful investment and therefore didn't participate? what idiots they must be for comparing risk with reward and coming to the conclusion that handing 25B to a stranger with no entrepreneurial record would be a bad investment decision? 3) what are you saying to those entrepreneurs that start small, earn trust and do hard work, with a fraction of that sum? what idiots they must be for not just demanding several billions of isk for their first venture? it is becoming quite a pain to repeat myself over and over again. is my reasoning totally wrong or are people just not "into" reading previous comments? there is not and never will be any kind of tool to determine the validity of an IPO. this whole farce will only lead to the next scammer putting a little more work into it and being a little less open about it, rinse and repeat. unless people start accepting that investments can only work in an environment where people earn trust by hard work (and not by fooling a couple of inept self appointed stock brokers) this thing will happen again and again and again...
Exelsior	Posted - 2006.06.14 16:48:00 - [147] Originally by: Alisha Lewarx Originally by: Iantine This scam was not due to the naivety or laziness of those scammed. 1) how in the world would you come to this conclusion? 2) what are you saying to the people who deemed sve to be a doubtful investment and therefore didn't participate? what idiots they must be for comparing risk with reward and coming to the conclusion that handing 25B to a stranger with no entrepreneurial record would be a bad investment decision? 3) what are you saying to those entrepreneurs that start small, earn trust and do hard work, with a fraction of that sum? what idiots they must be for not just demanding several billions of isk for their first venture? it is becoming quite a pain to repeat myself over and over again. is my reasoning totally wrong or are people just not "into" reading previous comments? there is not and never will be any kind of tool to determine the validity of an IPO. this whole farce will only lead to the next scammer putting a little more work into it and being a little less open about it, rinse and repeat. unless people start accepting that investments can only work in an environment where people earn trust by hard work (and not by fooling a couple of inept self appointed stock brokers) this thing will happen again and again and again... I agree. Which is why i've postponed my IPO for like another 5-6 months to build up a business in advance, and to provide a large portion of the capital. My Blog with freighter services/preliminary IPO business plan
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.14 17:09:00 - [148] Just to make sure: while i do blame the trustees for making mistakes - that's no big deal. I told someone that asking 1,8b for a 10km Smartbomb is just plain moronic - it sold the next day :( Neither Exelsior nor OZ have claimed that they got taken by ebil uncounterable exploits. The problem lies with those investors who got taken, and refuse to admit their failure - making up fake rules about forums being protected against scams (not true at the time of the scam, there was even an official clarification telling just that IN REACTION TO IPO SCAMs), making up fake rules about uncounterable scams (please refund pirate ransoms to pirates who blow up people anyway) etc. I do realise that not everyone has been refunded, nor crying for a refund. The hardworking guys like O'Mara got hit in the face. Why did he bother making reports and building trust by competence and experience when he could just have asked for 25b from random lazy strangers?
Havelcek	Posted - 2006.06.14 17:14:00 - [149] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Just to make sure: while i do blame the trustees for making mistakes - that's no big deal. I told someone that asking 1,8b for a 10km Smartbomb is just plain moronic - it sold the next day :( Neither Exelsior nor OZ have claimed that they got taken by ebil uncounterable exploits. The problem lies with those investors who got taken, and refuse to admit their failure - making up fake rules about forums being protected against scams (not true at the time of the scam, there was even an official clarification telling just that IN REACTION TO IPO SCAMs), making up fake rules about uncounterable scams (please refund pirate ransoms to pirates who blow up people anyway) etc. I do realise that not everyone has been refunded, nor crying for a refund. The hardworking guys like O'Mara got hit in the face. Why did he bother making reports and building trust by competence and experience when he could just have asked for 25b from random lazy strangers? Agreed, this is about the CCP intervention and failure of folks who constantly forum-warrior on noobies about being scammed to stand up and take their medicine like men.
Alisha Lewarx	Posted - 2006.06.14 17:44:00 - [150] Originally by: Iantine So your potential scammer works for three months and establishes a business, then starts and IPO, takes the money, and runs. The SVE scam had all the infrastructure for a business before they went IPO, with, as I recall, atleast a freighter and a tech 2 BPO. They had a character created in 2003 and an associated main with no history of scamming. The amount of work involved here is trivial compared to operating a production company for a few months to set up a background. What do you suggest we do to insure the validity of IPOs? Have the brokers track them all down and subject them to polygraph tests? 1) obviously whatever work janette put into this scam was worth 25B to her. the 2 relevant questions are: would this work have been worth 100M (or whatever else you would define as a sensible sum for a first time IPO) to her? do you feel you demanded enough work from her to entrust her with 25B? 2) thanks for making me repeat myself again Originally by: Alisha Lewarx investment is a risk. as an investor you are supposed to make a judgement about who you trust your money with. Originally by: Alisha Lewarx there is not and never will be any kind of tool to determine the validity of an IPO. a stock market is the same as a lottery, except that you have the possibility to use available information to influence the odds in your favor (by making a better decision based upon the same information or by obtaining better information than the others). unless the eve stock market isn't supposed to resemble a real stock market this is a fact.
Cherybol	Posted - 2006.06.14 17:46:00 - [151] This scam was just a good show that we Investors are indeed blindly investing huge amounts of isk. Over all, we need to develop and use a better system to secure our assets in IPO's, and prevent people from running off. Ok, it was our own damn fault this time. I myself wasnt affected by this scam. On another note: I give up. You morons cannot be reasoned with.
Alisha Lewarx	Posted - 2006.06.14 18:12:00 - [152] Originally by: Cherybol My God. Are you all complete flaming idiots. Escrow scams are easily avoidable, as we have the tools ingame that help us determine wether or not they actually are selling that tempest fleet issue for an insanly cheap price. Or if its just a renamed tempest. With IPO's, we don't have the tools to determine wether or not it truely is a legitimate IPO, or a complete utter scam. Right now, its at a stage where we take a complete blind step into it. But in RL, we have the tools to determine this, and laws that will punish those severly should it be a complete scam. So what im saying is that, we shareholders don't have the power because of the ingame mechanics to determine the authenticity of an IPO, nor the backing of any form of law that punishes such crimes. Yes, CCP did step in and refund it this one time, but thats because we have no power when it comes to IPO's, only faith. While with escrows as i've already said, you do have the power to prevent it. And with escrow, you have the little inspect tool to determine the authenticy of the escrow. While with IPO's, we have no such thing. Next time, think about it before you start whining your ass of because ccp reimbursed us. There is a much deeper reason other then. "ZOMG TEH CASH IS GONE" yawn might someone please explain what kind of tool we have in reallife to determine if someone in charge of a company is going to run off with the money or not? in reallife embezzlement doesn't happen because we have all these great tools, right? some of you should really have their accounts cancelled for excessive stupidity. you cannot compare a transaction (A gives an item to B and receives money/item in return at the same time) to a venture investment (A gives money to B and receives the promise of getting more money back later)

Jorauk	Posted - 2006.06.14 18:36:00 - [153] Locking this, please direct any further comments to this thread in General Discussion on the issue. Click ------------ rules \| CRC Web \| [email protected]


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