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Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:46:00 - [91] Originally by: Taurequis Edited by: Taurequis on 13/06/2006 23:31:24 Originally by: Rthor Respect to those scammed who do not ask for reimbursment. Tbh i've struggled to find many posts in any of the threads by peeps who actually put cash towards this actually asking for thier cash back. The majority of us (and the post by us you notice) are just wanting a bit more accountability in the whole thing and some clarification and some extra game features. Respect to all non flamers is due. Promote discussion, not locks. Best Regards, Taurequis edit - pls note that its becoming clear that it doesnt even matter if you have petitioned. Some who havnt have got their isk back. Others who have, have not. So peeps should wait for the gm statement before critising anyone, if at all. It just had to be said that just because people got scammed that does not make them stupid. They were not careful with money and they lost it. If they dont want it back then, and I hope not to be patronizing if possible, I think that they learned their lesson and they are on their way to understanding this game and possibly RL also. And this is why Eve is a good game. It really is true that the people who stay on in this game are capable of handling risk. The key to this game is not making enough bad decisions in a row. So if you got scammed here you should learn from this and not make another decision or two in a row that are bad because it could kill you in this game. Helping you to erase the consequences of this scam by reimbursing you only postpones the learning of the lesson of this game which is: learn to handle risk properly. To put it differently you get helped now and all it does is you make another mistake just like this one shortly thereafter.
Toshiro Khan	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:48:00 - [92] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Originally by: Toshiro Khan In game scamming = fine and dandy. Forum scamming = a big no no. Kinda makes sence, even though it was a good scam the trade forum is supposed to be a scam free zone. When the first IPO scams apeared (those that did not burn high profire players), everyone asked for clarification. We got it, the sell orders forum rules post was edited, and a couple mods asked GMs and posted, Dark shikari talked with GMs / forum mods etc. *** 5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.* [more rules] Clarification: Scams (unless involving real life money) are allowed in game, and while other forms of scams are not allowed here, posting it has no repercussions in game. *** This is the original text, as i c/p -ed it in my post here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=350625&page=2 [Post 47] Thats the reason why Artemis did this scam. It was allowed as per all rules. Scaming in game is fine. Scamming on forums is against forum rules (so he should get one forum warning). The text clearly shows that scamming on forums does not lead to any consequences in game. Both you and hippo should read the rules again... 5. Posting scam auctions and sales are not permitted here.* Clarification: Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY* have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion. Its seems that this time around the GM's discretion went against the scammer and he got bit, those are the breaks and the risks.
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:53:00 - [93] Originally by: Shar Tegral The arguments were not for reimbursement. Just for some method of retaliation. Even if it was nothing more than taking the isk and trashing it. Look in Eve most of the time there is no retaliation. If I lose my ship to somebody and want to track them down to pay them back it just is not going to happen. Even if somehow I will be able to find them and wait for them to log on I can just lose another ship to him or his friends which would be even dumber and entertaining for them. Most of the time there is no retaliation in Eve. This is just something that you have to accept. And asking GMs to help in your retaliation is weak.
Gully Smit	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:55:00 - [94] I think it's time that the world of scamming grows a little. It's time for EVEJAIL! Scammers think they are great once they complete a scam. They only need to complete the transaction. Sadly there is not much chance for retaliation for the crime. In society you can get caught. Why not in EVE! Now if Scammers could be systematically caught and prosecuted by the in-game community that would create a balance that is necessary in this equation. scammers REALLY have it easy. When can we police them as they should be policed....using an in-game venue (judge, jury and jailed). Genuis scammers out there would invite such a challenge...but realistically most will whine if ever they had to deal with being policed(as I keep hearing because of the CCPs actions). It would be interesting if there was an NPC that enabled evidence gathering of some kind. maybe they can be paid npc (stools) that if u pinpoint information ...pay a fee...u can produce hard evidence to prosecute. perhaps a judicial board of ceo's can determine action against players( maybe the stools can reveal alts for the right price). ofcourse if prosecuted...siezure of property to pay fines and court costs would be the way to support the courts..ppl in it. donations from the community to help enforce the policing. Scammers would really have to EARN their accolades. GULLY SMIT----EVEJAIL advocate.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:56:00 - [95] Originally by: Shar Tegral Given that the person violated some of the minimum ethical standards in Eve, i.e. posting a scam on the forums, he should be appluaded for his gumption and justly rewarded with a smack across the mouth. He violated people's feelings, the investors trust, your made up "ethical standards" shared by you and maybe some others - but no rules. I still remember the flamewar where DS and hippo tried to hammer the basic truth that the forums are not protected against someone who stubbornly refused to believe. Oh how the mighty have fallen. New rules have been made. basically stating that if i scam you on forums, laugh about you in your face - nothing might happen. Depending on what GM gets to handle your case. You want retaliation? How about actually doing what all the other victims in eve history could do - attack the evildoer? People that are "flaming" you are just telling you that - you dont deserve any other form of "retaliation". If there will be a games mag doing an article about Artemis, you will get your ISK taken away from you again. Such is life. Or as someone just said: "see that annoys me a little. I should get a benefit for not being dumb in the first place. ah well :)"
Charae	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:56:00 - [96] People speak of the inability to ingame check trust in their defending CCP's reaction, but that's utter BS ofcourse. First of all, scamming is allowed (and glorified) in this game, more often than not people will call it a form of PVP, and as long as it doesn't hit you people will laugh about it. Suddenly (when it hits the higher profile peeps) people will 'invent' all kinds of rules, bend the known rules to be in their favor. Some time ago We had a 'nice' discussion with Bhaal on how CCP would/would not interfere with forum based scams. In the end, what it came down to is that unless there's RL money involved, scamming is allowed. If posted on the forums it may have repercussions for the forum account but NEVER any form of action/reimbursement ingame. And that's how it should be. The whole 'there's no ingame check to see if it's legit' is BS. What if someone is stopped by pirates, a highly glorified action btw, we all laugh when another dumbass gets caught and gets send back to 3 weeks of mining if it's a newbie, we tell him to STFU, he's dumb, he learned his lesson, LOLZ!!!!1... oh and he can't vent his frustration either, cause that would be smacktalking and that is considered to be honorless.... or something. Now this guy pays his ransom HAVING TO TRUST THE PIRATE NOT BLOWING UP HIS SHIP FOR WHATEVER REASON, BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW HOW TRUSTWORTHY PEOPLE AT THE BUSINESS END OF A GUN ARE, but then gets blown up anyway. So he 'trusts' the pirate with his money, but gets blown up. He had NO way to verify the trustworthyness of that pirate, so according to our forumwarriors newly implemented 'rules' he should be reimbursed by CCP. However, this doesn't happen ofcourse and we all go "tough luck man, if I see him I'll blow him up for ya" Mind you, I'm not condemning piracy (although it may have looked that way), the normal reaction to any loss/scam/wardec/grief is 'tough luck man, hope you recover from it, game mechanics give you the option to hunt/kill that guy". As it SHOULD be, but suddenly with the reimbursements for this scam right here, it seems as if some people/corps/alliances are more similar than others.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.13 23:58:00 - [97] Originally by: Toshiro Khan nonsense I cannot believe what you just wrote. Please, check again, before looking REAALLY stupid.
Dinique	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:01:00 - [98] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Argenton Sayvers I cannot believe it. They changed the rules. As you can clearly see, the sell order forum rules got changed AFTER this scam. Artemis did the same mistake as everyone else that is involved in this drama. Trust. He trusted the GMs to be fair and enforce the rules. From now on, there are no rules in eve. They change the rules ex post facto all the time. Do you remember when Zombie got banned after the Yulai incident? Classic case. Anyways, I'm happy this was done. It was a change that needed to be made, and an example needed to be made of the new rule. And my ISK is back in my wallet You've GOT to be ***** kidding me!! You don't deserve to get that money back! You lost it and its your own damn fault! Scams have always been allowed in this game. Seriously, what the ** is this then? You were stupid enough to hand over your ISK! If you can't afford to lose it, don't fly it. If you can't afford to lose it don't invest it! If you can't afford to lose it DONT HAND IT OVER TO A COMPLETE STRANGER PERHAPS EH?! Ofcourse you are happy, YOU got your money back. You would be whistling a different tune if you stood on the other side. PATHETIC. You don't deserve a single cent returned. _____ There's so many different worlds So many different suns And we have just one world But we live in different ones
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:07:00 - [99] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers You want retaliation? How about actually doing what all the other victims in eve history could do - attack the evildoer? People that are "flaming" you are just telling you that - you dont deserve any other form of "retaliation". I have not been flamed. I have not invested in this matter nor do I care one way or the other about those who did. However I do not so blithely disregard the intelligent discussion that many have added to this debate (pro and con). I tend to believe in the power of reading comprehension and have applied that obviously foreign concept to the discussion. Submit News
Gully Smit	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:12:00 - [100] why should retaliation be limited to blowing em up? how one dimensional. why not limit scammer to weapons too?
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:26:00 - [101] There is much more at stake then the small, and in the great scheme of things unimportant, investment scene. Thats why people disregard all the meaningful discussion, and vent their opinions on this multitude of topics, mixed in one thread. there is nothing wrong with discussing "solutions" that have no direct connection to this farce. One has to acknowledge that things have happened today that have shaken the very foundations on which eve is based. Well was based ;)
Cudaya Ebsldes	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:39:00 - [102] CCP kills the stock market. What else is new. What incentive now is there to be diligent in any respect as mommy will come in and give back the lollypop that the nasty little 14 yr old girl (so the toon looks like) freely was given by the gulible. ItÆs not risk vs. reward. ItÆs risk free; at least for the elites of EVE. I guess no one has even heard of the concept of bank failure and the idea of loss? No, this is just a game for the brave who never loose; like in the picture Westworld.
fmercury	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:42:00 - [103] We're headed down a slippery slope here, CCP
Alenia DiCaan	Posted - 2006.06.14 00:52:00 - [104] Wow, one step closer to World of Warcraft. Guys, my ship blew up but I spend 8 hours a day posting on the forums so the GMs respawned it. Yay!
Rawne Karrde	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:04:00 - [105] A slippery slope indeed. On this one they really can't win. Slippery slope #1. Do nothing and watch the forums fill with IPO scamms that destroy all the work countless people have worked very hard to establish. CCP want a stock market in EvE heck it was printed on the box of the game when I bought it back in may 2003. The establishment of a stock market in eve benefits this game immensely. Slippery slope #2. Begin to re-imburse scams not only creating a precedent of re-imbursement, but also as some say removing the risk from those who lost isk fair and square. Making this kind of scam on the forums not allowed. In this case the slippery slope of doing nothing would hurt eve much more than the other slope. I support ccp in taking action but what irritates me is that once again CCP shows a fundamental problem with their company. CCP is and i fear only reactionary when dealing with things. EvE changes quickly and even with all their hirings and expansions of their employees they still cannot keep up with the needs of the game. It irritates me to no end that it is now over 3 years since this game went live and there is no stock market in game. But oh wait we get new guns, ammo, and ships to blow things up with all the time. CCP shame on you, if you had done your jobs, then this issue wouldn't have come up. Because of your lack of foresight and disinterest in working on game concepts that are not dealing with direct space combat, you are now forced to choose between these two evils.
Michael Nester	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:09:00 - [106] This really reeks to alot of people of CCP favoritism because forum hot shots were some of the ones who took most of the brunt of this scam. Instead of refunding the isk a system should be put in place to prevent something like this instead of just rolling over and giving the forum hotshot whiny crowd all their money back, it really reeks this does.
Alenia DiCaan	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:13:00 - [107] Originally by: Rawne Karrde In this case the slippery slope of doing nothing would hurt eve much more than the other slope. I disagree. The contracts system is on the horizon. This was a simple appeasement for a completely legit scam. This is no different than a newbie jumping into low sec and getting ganked. The experienced players laugh and say "that's Eve!". But with this decision, Eve is a little less Eve.
Tenpenny Six	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:18:00 - [108] CCP needs to give the cash back to the scammer. All you morons who just lined up to fork your cash over deserve to lose it for not being careful. I wonder how many of the people who got scammed live in Empire and how many live in 0.0... would make an interesting chart to see who and how much.
Ashley Sky	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:19:00 - [109] One of the things that makes EVE so special is the ability to be a villain. Be it thief, scammer, pirate, or galactic tyrant, social engineering is one of the more interesting and clever ways to win at your evil trade. Events like this prove that there is less room in EVE for character styles and true creativity. Take away the risk, and all you have is a pathetic little carebear space simulator where the biggest group hug and ship you can buy on Ebay is king. It's clear that EVE is no longer based on player content, and character, and instead on how many accounts CCP has in the big isk treadmill. The one thing that sets CCP apart from other MMOGs is slowly eroding away. Truly Pathetic.
TribalBleb	Posted - 2006.06.14 01:38:00 - [110] I can't believe people got their ISK back, thatÆs just so stupid WhatÆs the deal here? this is nothing like CCP at all, did he scammed a dev or gm or something So whatÆs next? reimbursing stuff people lose in high sec, reimbursing overpriced items people bought by accident?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:05:00 - [111] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Shar Tegral, i edited my post to show that i was not directly addressing you after i responded to your quote. I took no offense hence my statement, "I have not been flamed." Applied to you as well as any portion of this thread and associated threads. It's a hot topic button for many people. After all of the injustices that have been allowed to happen under the pretense of "darwinism" it is a shock that this situation has brought about some redress. And the manner of redress troubles all of us including many of those who would benefit from the return of their monies. Many have said "Slippery Slope" about this situation not recognizing that we have been travelling that slope since beta. This is just one of those defining moments. Sadly many wish to define it as "the end of Eve". (If I had an isk for everytime that* has been said. A few times by me!!*) For myself, I am simply seeing which people offer something worth reading, like you for instance, and pretty much adding those who don't add anything useful to the list of those who do scams or are bitter that they've been stung in the past. Stuff like this does bring out the extremes in the community. Nothing like a crucible to make people show their real colors eh? Submit News
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:08:00 - [112] Originally by: Shar Tegral For myself, I am simply seeing which people offer something worth reading, like you for instance, and pretty much adding those who don't add anything useful to the list of those who do scams or are bitter that they've been stung in the past. Stuff like this does bring out the extremes in the community. Nothing like a crucible to make people show their real colors eh? This is not your blog. If you dont get it its OK but please dont derail this thread.
BloodSpoon	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:14:00 - [113] reimbursement for anything IPO or the like is just plain wrong...there's no 2 ways around it or a way to justify that course of action is this a sign of things to come? are we really going to aid those who get swindled? _________________________________________________________ m0o?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:18:00 - [114] Originally by: Rthor This is not your blog. This is my blog. It's been around longer than you have... I have no fear of blogging my thoughts there. However here I add something to the discussion along with a few personal thoughts of my own. /me shrugs and dismisses the hostility. Submit News
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:20:00 - [115]
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:29:00 - [116] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Rthor This is not your blog. This is my blog. It's been around longer than you have... I have no fear of blogging my thoughts there. However here I add something to the discussion along with a few personal thoughts of my own. /me shrugs and dismisses the hostility. due dilligence
Ariu Devine	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:32:00 - [117] Originally by: Michael Nester Instead of refunding the isk a system should be put in place to prevent something like this instead of just rolling over and giving the forum hotshot whiny crowd all their money back, it really reeks this does. Um... please read the other threads.. that is what was ASKED for. That is what other threads BEEN TALKING about. Most of those that go scammed that were vocal about it even said dont worry about the isk, just put something in place! -- Always Seeking. Never Finding.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2006.06.14 02:49:00 - [118] Originally by: Rthor due dilligence Advice you would be well advised to take. And now, you bore me with your trolling. Submit News
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.06.14 03:02:00 - [119] Originally by: Ariu Devine Originally by: Michael Nester Instead of refunding the isk a system should be put in place to prevent something like this instead of just rolling over and giving the forum hotshot whiny crowd all their money back, it really reeks this does. Um... please read the other threads.. that is what was ASKED for. That is what other threads BEEN TALKING about. Most of those that go scammed that were vocal about it even said dont worry about the isk, just put something in place! And what happened? Not only did we get our money back, but the system that has been put in place is even WORSE then the previous one. While the forum rules clearly stated that all sorts of scams that dont involve GTC / Characters will have no ingame consequences, the current rules state that they "may" lead to action. not "will". "may". So if me and Dark shikari band together and do EXACTLY the same scam, with exactly the same "lolz pwned" message, you might get nil, just because the GM responsible for the current course of action is on vacation... highly unlikely, yet supported by the rules.
Berious	Posted - 2006.06.14 03:37:00 - [120] Hey I bought some shoddy bookmarks a few months ago, how about my 7 million back? Very, very bad move CCP. Sets a horrible precedent.

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