Originally by: HippoKing

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Edited by: HippoKing on 13/06/2006 21:15:45
That should not have happened.

Linkage?

edit: i found it here

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Originally by: Hey You

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I agree. Reimbursing for a scam, which was by game mechanics, is horribly lame, and not cool.

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Originally by: Emno

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eve losing what makes it eve ftl

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Originally by: Toshiro Khan

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Originally by: Hey You

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I agree. Reimbursing for a scam, which was by game mechanics, is horribly lame, and not cool.

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/agree, but this scam wasn't by game mechanics.. it was by forum mechanics which is something different.

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Toshiro Khan

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Originally by: Hey You

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I agree. Reimbursing for a scam, which was by game mechanics, is horribly lame, and not cool.

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/agree, but this scam wasn't by game mechanics.. it was by forum mechanics which is something different.

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These people weren't smart. They lost their ISK because of, IMHO, stupidity. It's happened before, the difference now? More people got scammed then before, and CCP got more complaints, and they caved in. I don't see ANY other explantion for this.

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Originally by: Toshiro Khan

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Originally by: Hey You

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I agree. Reimbursing for a scam, which was by game mechanics, is horribly lame, and not cool.

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/agree, but this scam wasn't by game mechanics.. it was by forum mechanics which is something different.

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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Does this mean that Ubiqua Seraph will be getting their stuff back?

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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Does this mean that Ubiqua Seraph will be getting their stuff back?

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Nope because according to CCP and DS not recruiting any members is an excelent way of preventing corp theft.

Though since members are recuited through forums, wouldnt this exclude them from robbing the corp, since the forums where used as the main tool?

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Originally by: General Tzu

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to the OP, i'd be glad to see people like you leave the game. we don't need you.

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Originally by: General Tzu

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puh-leeeeez. theres an old saying, "all a lock does is keep an honest man honest." meaning for every security system out there, there will be at least one person out there that will defeat it for whatever lame reason the intruder uses. this also applies to these game mechanics.

come up with a better IPO plan using new game mechanics? some lamer will find a way to scam with it.

seriously. how do you propose a "safe" IPO plan? countless hours on ventrillo? meeting the person in RL? they certainly aren't going to implement a public paper trail system so you can track money from one scammer to his alt. the only logical solutions seem to invoke huge time sinks that will instantly deter investors.

the scammers are plain and simply using a system in which trust is necessary for almost anything extremely profitable to take advantage of people and the trust they give. short of implementing a system where people are punished for being lying deceitful children, there's not much more you can do.

so this is a great move on CCPs part IMO. its just plain sad that people can scam folks out of large amounts of hard earned money, laugh about it like idiots and hide behind the crutch that "Eve affords this option." Eve affords many options for play, but it doesn't mean they are moral or productive to a growing gaming environment.. which most scammers would whine about when the masses left and they were sitting with billions of ISK and no one to play with.

hurray for CCP. several web published stories have been thrown around where people go waaaayyyy beyond serious committment to scamming other folks. if you think there's a way to counter these idiots then you are seriously mistaken. but i guess its easier to call the victims "stupid" until you actually fall victim to it yourself.

to the OP, i'd be glad to see people like you leave the game. we don't need you.

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Originally by: Max Teranous

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Edited by: Max Teranous on 13/06/2006 22:15:09
Seriously, is this a case of a junior GM going beyond his bounds? Or a fundamental change in policy by CCP?

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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You can defend against corporate theft by properly locking down your hangars, so that isn't banned.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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The last time CCP made a major change to the rules and applied the changes ex post facto to the violator was with the Zombie incident in Yulai. NOBODY COMPLAINED WHEN THAT HAPPENED DID THEY? Then why the hell are people complaining now? Its the same damned thing. A bunch of hypocrits, you all are.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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A line has to be drawn, and it has been drawn. CCP has decided that taking 25 billion from investors without having any recourse as that would have in real life, as the contract system doesn't exist yet is lame, and they have reversed it.

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Originally by: General Tzu

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puh-leeeeez. theres an old saying, "all a lock does is keep an honest man honest." meaning for every security system out there, there will be at least one person out there that will defeat it for whatever lame reason the intruder uses. this also applies to these game mechanics.

come up with a better IPO plan using new game mechanics? some lamer will find a way to scam with it.

seriously. how do you propose a "safe" IPO plan? countless hours on ventrillo? meeting the person in RL? they certainly aren't going to implement a public paper trail system so you can track money from one scammer to his alt. the only logical solutions seem to invoke huge time sinks that will instantly deter investors.

the scammers are plain and simply using a system in which trust is necessary for almost anything extremely profitable to take advantage of people and the trust they give. short of implementing a system where people are punished for being lying deceitful children, there's not much more you can do.

so this is a great move on CCPs part IMO. its just plain sad that people can scam folks out of large amounts of hard earned money, laugh about it like idiots and hide behind the crutch that "Eve affords this option." Eve affords many options for play, but it doesn't mean they are moral or productive to a growing gaming environment.. which most scammers would whine about when the masses left and they were sitting with billions of ISK and no one to play with.

hurray for CCP. several web published stories have been thrown around where people go waaaayyyy beyond serious committment to scamming other folks. if you think there's a way to counter these idiots then you are seriously mistaken. but i guess its easier to call the victims "stupid" until you actually fall victim to it yourself.

to the OP, i'd be glad to see people like you leave the game. we don't need you.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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Some ranting

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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You can defend against pretty much any scam through common sense.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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I'm sick of this stupid flamewar--its gone on long enough in the Market forums. But I will post one thing, and only one thing:

There is no way within the game to defend against IPO scams.

You can defend against escrow scams by inspecting, so those aren't banned.

You can defend against market scams by LOOKING, so those aren't banned.

You can defend against corporate theft by properly locking down your hangars, so that isn't banned.

You can defend against pretty much any scam through common sense.

But Artemis demonstrated that a properly designed scam IPO is impossible to defend against. Guess what else is impossible to defend against? GTC and character scams. Guess what? They're banned!

One might ask... where does the line get drawn? Where CCP says so, apparently.

Finally, what is this about "harsh reality"? In reality, Janette would have been prosecuted, sent to jail for a lifetime, and all the money returned (though a lot of it would have gone to the lawyers).

The one person who has lost my respect most here is Shamis Orzoz, who is spamming the forums with total bull**** about how this "scam" is such a great thing and IPO scams should be allowed to tear down the EVE stock market as it stands. This is sickening, and I expected better of a S******dly member. What happened to "honor", S******dly? Or does it only apply to you?

I'm sorry I had to post this, but the reaction of the forum community to this sickens me. People hated Istvaan's theft, even though it was the classiest "scam" ever to be done in EVE. Yet here, they congratulate a total lamer on doing something phenomenally easy and in the process ruining the entire concept of the EVE stock market by making it impossible for a new corporation to effectively run an IPO in the future. Do you really think Artemis deserves your respect for what he did? What he did was classless, stupid, and lame. It was not Ubiqia Seraph heist. It was just plain stupid.

The last time CCP made a major change to the rules and applied the changes ex post facto to the violator was with the Zombie incident in Yulai. NOBODY COMPLAINED WHEN THAT HAPPENED DID THEY? Then why the hell are people complaining now? Its the same damned thing. A bunch of hypocrits, you all are.

A line has to be drawn, and it has been drawn. CCP has decided that taking 25 billion from investors without having any recourse as that would have in real life, as the contract system doesn't exist yet is lame, and they have reversed it.

Flame me all you want, but scamming people out of 25 billion by betraying the trust of some of the most trustworthy people in EVE and abusing CCP's flawed system is nothing to be proud of.

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Originally by: arbitrary

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tragic indeed.

one of the reasons I started playing EVE was the cold & then CCP gets all cuddly with us

so is scamming out of EVE now?

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Originally by: The Enslaver

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Originally by: Emno

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eve losing what makes it eve ftl

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That is exactly it.

This is... Well, it is pathetic.

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Originally by: Hey You

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Just wait. CCP hasn't got enough complaints yet.

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Originally by: Gunstar Zero

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could be a bad judgment call from one GM after all.

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Originally by: Shinnen

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Did it make a difference to you he got his money back? I am glad to see that he's happy, after all, shouldn't we all be?

Lets just put it like this, if you were just reimbursed 500m ISK, how would you feel if someone made a thread complaining about it?

I know I'd feel pretty gutted.

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Originally by: Shinnen

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Originally by: arbitrary

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tragic indeed.

one of the reasons I started playing EVE was the cold & then CCP gets all cuddly with us

so is scamming out of EVE now?

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You're an idiot.

500m is a considerable amount of money.

Let me tell you now, I am a good friend of exelsior in game, and take this from me, 500m is not a lot of money considering the kind of business he does.

However, Exel always has cash flow problems, I tend to help him out here and there providing 24 hour loans for a hundred million or so at a time.

A 500m loss severely cripled his plans for the future, but a few day's work he could have been there again.

After all he's part of the money making ***** machine that is EIBI.

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Originally by: Shinnen

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Originally by: "Exelsior"

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I thank thee from all my heart

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Did it make a difference to you he got his money back? I am glad to see that he's happy, after all, shouldn't we all be?

Lets just put it like this, if you were just reimbursed 500m ISK, how would you feel if someone made a thread complaining about it?

I know I'd feel pretty gutted.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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Some ranting

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I asked in the Market forum topic. Did CCP re-imburse Zombie Inc's victims? Any of them? All of them? Or the selective last few? My personal issue with this re-imburstment, is that they RE-IMBURSED THEM. Changing the rules? Fine, that's CCP's deal. BUT THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE RE-IMBURSED THE SCAM'S VICTIMS.

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I'm pretty sure pretty much everyone got reimbursed who asked.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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There is no way within the game to defend against IPO scams.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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You can defend against corporate theft by properly locking down your hangars, so that isn't banned.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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Finally, what is this about "harsh reality"? In reality, Janette would have been prosecuted, sent to jail for a lifetime, and all the money returned (though a lot of it would have gone to the lawyers).

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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What happened to "honor", S******dly? Or does it only apply to you?

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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I'm sorry I had to post this, but the reaction of the forum community to this sickens me. People hated Istvaan's theft, even though it was the classiest "scam" ever to be done in EVE. Yet here, they congratulate a total lamer on doing something phenomenally easy and in the process ruining the entire concept of the EVE stock market by making it impossible for a new corporation to effectively run an IPO in the future. Do you really think Artemis deserves your respect for what he did? What he did was classless, stupid, and lame. It was not Ubiqia Seraph heist. It was just plain stupid.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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The last time CCP made a major change to the rules and applied the changes ex post facto to the violator was with the Zombie incident in Yulai. NOBODY COMPLAINED WHEN THAT HAPPENED DID THEY? Then why the hell are people complaining now? Its the same damned thing. A bunch of hypocrits, you all are.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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A line has to be drawn, and it has been drawn. CCP has decided that taking 25 billion from investors without having any recourse as that would have in real life, as the contract system doesn't exist yet is lame, and they have reversed it.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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Flame me all you want, but scamming people out of 25 billion by betraying the trust of some of the most trustworthy people in EVE and abusing CCP's flawed system is nothing to be proud of.

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Originally by: General Tzu

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Originally by: Hey You

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If you're an alt, post under your main. If you're new, and still retain that mentality as you grow, and EvE doesn't get become the Scam-Free Game that it's looks like it's heading for, you will shortly leave. I can almost guarantee it. Why? Because what makes EVE different, and it's fanbase so loyal, is that it's a player-driven game mostly. You take risks, and sometimes get great rewards, and sometimes, you fail miserrably, and lose some isk. You don't get a crutch to lean on. But now...I honestly wonder. Poor taste, just poor taste, CCP.

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I am an alt. Tell me..seriously. What.the.*&%^.difference does it make? really.. Telling people to post on their main is just a cheap and transparent shot to make it look as though you have a valid agressing point. Maybe my main is in a corp that disallows public discussions of this nature with our mains? Maybe I just want to post with an alt because my main is a RPing character and I don't want to change perception of them here. Get over this stupid request and move on. If you seriously care more about what portrait is saying what rather than what is being said, then it says volumes for the arguements you make..

Now. You don't get a crutch to lean on? I agree with you that Eve affords a great risk vs rewards environment, but most things afford you an equal opportunity to retaliate. It may require a bit of work and/or a coordinated effort by many individuals, but scamming is the exception to this rule. This scammer can easily xfer the money to their alt, which could even be another in my own corp, and there is absolutely ZERO risk for them. The only "risk" they incur is the risk that someone see's through their crap and calls a halt to their scam, which is hardly a risk at all.

So in one breathe you are supporting the scammer and in the other you are supporting a risk vs reward system and implying that it applies to almost any action in Eve.. of which scammers are not a part of. Their playstyle is lose-almost-nothing vs reward.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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There is no way within the game to defend against IPO scams.

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Originally by: Shinnen

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Originally by: arbitrary

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tragic indeed.

one of the reasons I started playing EVE was the cold & then CCP gets all cuddly with us

so is scamming out of EVE now?

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You're an idiot.

500m is a considerable amount of money.

Let me tell you now, I am a good friend of exelsior in game, and take this from me, 500m is not a lot of money considering the kind of business he does.

However, Exel always has cash flow problems, I tend to help him out here and there providing 24 hour loans for a hundred million or so at a time.

A 500m loss severely cripled his plans for the future, but a few day's work he could have been there again.

After all he's part of the money making ***** machine that is EIBI.

Originally by: "Exelsior"

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I thank thee from all my heart

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Did it make a difference to you he got his money back? I am glad to see that he's happy, after all, shouldn't we all be?

Lets just put it like this, if you were just reimbursed 500m ISK, how would you feel if someone made a thread complaining about it?

I know I'd feel pretty gutted.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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Finally, what is this about "harsh reality"? In reality, Janette would have been prosecuted, sent to jail for a lifetime, and all the money returned (though a lot of it would have gone to the lawyers).

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Originally by: Galk

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Edited by: Galk on 13/06/2006 22:48:53
It's selective at it's best, selective isn't good, and fortain was right, it will be ignored till it 'blows over'

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Originally by: Pesadel0

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Werent you one of the guys that was scammed.You are the one that is being lame.

This opens the pandora box .

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Originally by: Shinnen

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Originally by: arbitrary

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tragic indeed.

one of the reasons I started playing EVE was the cold & then CCP gets all cuddly with us

so is scamming out of EVE now?

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You're an idiot.

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Quote:

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Originally by: "Exelsior"

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I thank thee from all my heart

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Did it make a difference to you he got his money back? I am glad to see that he's happy, after all, shouldn't we all be?

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Quote:

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Lets just put it like this, if you were just reimbursed 500m ISK, how would you feel if someone made a thread complaining about it?

I know I'd feel pretty gutted.

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Quote:

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What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.

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Originally by: Scorpyn

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My opinion on the subject is this :

Scamming is lame, but changing or bending the rules in order to help some of the "better" members of the EVE community is even lamer.

I suspect that the reimbursement was done for 2 reasons :

1. It was too successful
2. Several of the more "famous" EVE citizens were victims in various ways

Of course, I don't know all the facts, so I can still hope that I'm wrong

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Originally by: Marnix

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Quote:

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What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.

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From the EVE-Online Support, see Ask a Question on the left. Seems pretty damn fcking clear to me.

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Originally by: Nee'kita Frist

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Hot damn I'm gonna petition those scams now.

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Originally by: Marnix

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Quote:

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What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.

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From the EVE-Online Support, see Ask a Question on the left. Seems pretty damn fcking clear to me.

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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Edited by: Dark Shikari on 13/06/2006 22:19:39

I'm sick of this stupid flamewar--its gone on long enough in the Market forums. But I will post one thing, and only one thing:

There is no way within the game to defend against IPO scams.

You can defend against escrow scams by inspecting, so those aren't banned.

You can defend against market scams by LOOKING, so those aren't banned.

You can defend against corporate theft by properly locking down your hangars, so that isn't banned.

You can defend against pretty much any scam through common sense.

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Originally by: Amaarth

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Reimburse every corporate theft, every IPO scam, ANY scam for the last 3 years, now. or don't reimburse ANY! :@

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Originally by: Tristan Acoma

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Originally by: Galk

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Edited by: Galk on 13/06/2006 22:48:53
It's selective at it's best, selective isn't good, and fortain was right, it will be ignored till it 'blows over'

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And that's even more insanely stupid

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Originally by: Tristan Acoma

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Originally by: Marnix

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Quote:

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What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.

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From the EVE-Online Support, see Ask a Question on the left. Seems pretty damn fcking clear to me.

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Yup - arbitrary rules 4tw...

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Escrow Bookmark Scams
Protection: None.
Get Even Options: None.

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Originally by: General Tzu

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Originally by: Pesadel0

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Werent you one of the guys that was scammed.You are the one that is being lame.

This opens the pandora box .

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seriously. just step away from the keyboard if you don't have anything sensible to say. of course they are ****ed if they got scammed. but what the crap does that have to do with the content of their arguement.

in the words of the principal in Billy Madison.. "..everyone in this room is now more stupid for having listened to you. i award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

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Originally by: Scorpyn

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Escrow Bookmark Scams
Protection: None.
Get Even Options: None.

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Protection : Research

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Originally by: Shinnen

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Maybe you can relate to this better Hey You.

You lose an armageddon in PVP knowing you can afford another one with the insurance you have an more money in your wallet.

You still feel down because you lost it.

It's not how much for he got scammed, it's that he got scammed, getting it back made him pretty happy.

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Scorpyn

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Originally by: Joshua Foiritain

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Escrow Bookmark Scams
Protection: None.
Get Even Options: None.

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Protection : Research

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Well, actually, not really. You TRUST that the people who said this person was a good BM seller were not lying, or an alt of this guy. So..

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Originally by: Hey You

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Am I the only one who finds it ironic, that many EVE players are trying to defend the game they love...From it's GMs?

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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But Artemis demonstrated that a properly designed scam IPO is impossible to defend against. Guess what else is impossible to defend against? GTC and character scams. Guess what? They're banned!

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Originally by: Kaeten

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So if it has to do with the forum and that scammnig is not allwoed out-game /forum) then yes i think everyone should be reimbursed. Yes it's in-game mechanics however it was done with help of out-game tools so people who say its tottaly in-game mechaics go get a clue...

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Originally by: Kaeten

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tbh I thin kthis has to do with the forum aswell. Using eve-o forum to scam/lie is illegal i think (scamming for timecards on sell forum is bannable i know).

So if it has to do with the forum and that scammnig is not allwoed out-game /forum) then yes i think everyone should be reimbursed. Yes it's in-game mechanics however it was done with help of out-game tools so people who say its tottaly in-game mechaics go get a clue...

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Originally by: Shinnen

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I read the whole thing again, and I agree, the GMs should not have interfered IF there was another "insurance" company such as your real life bank that would monitor large amount of money being transferred and give it you back if you lose it due to a scam.

There is no other option for exel to do then what he did, so i agree with the GM's decsision.

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Originally by: Kaeten

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tbh I thin kthis has to do with the forum aswell. Using eve-o forum to scam/lie is illegal i think (scamming for timecards on sell forum is bannable i know).

So if it has to do with the forum and that scammnig is not allwoed out-game /forum) then yes i think everyone should be reimbursed. Yes it's in-game mechanics however it was done with help of out-game tools so people who say its tottaly in-game mechaics go get a clue...

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Originally by: Shinnen

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Maybe you can relate to this better Hey You.

You lose an armageddon in PVP knowing you can afford another one with the insurance you have an more money in your wallet.

You still feel down because you lost it.

It's not how much for he got scammed, it's that he got scammed, getting it back made him pretty happy.

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Originally by: Kaeten

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tbh I thin kthis has to do with the forum aswell. Using eve-o forum to scam/lie is illegal i think (scamming for timecards on sell forum is bannable i know).

So if it has to do with the forum and that scammnig is not allwoed out-game /forum) then yes i think everyone should be reimbursed. Yes it's in-game mechanics however it was done with help of out-game tools so people who say its tottaly in-game mechaics go get a clue...

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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The forum rule is not well thought out. Besides, since when do your forum actions result in in game consequences? A forum ban might be in order, but not reimbursing all the isk...

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Originally by: Hey You

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Right, using the forum to scam has forum consequences, like warnings, or bans. But it's not supposed to have IG consquences, LIKE GETTING THEIR ISK BACK.

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Originally by: Wanoah

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Originally by: Dark Shikari

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But Artemis demonstrated that a properly designed scam IPO is impossible to defend against. Guess what else is impossible to defend against? GTC and character scams. Guess what? They're banned!

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What you seem to miss when making your point, is that scams involving GTCs and character transfers aren't banned because they are 'impossible to defend against' but because they involve real money, not just in-game stuff.

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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The forum rule is not well thought out. Besides, since when do your forum actions result in in game consequences? A forum ban might be in order, but not reimbursing all the isk...

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Since the fact that noone would of known about this if he didn't use the forums.

Originally by: Hey You

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Right, using the forum to scam has forum consequences, like warnings, or bans. But it's not supposed to have IG consquences, LIKE GETTING THEIR ISK BACK.

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the scam has in-game consiquences

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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The forum rule is not well thought out. Besides, since when do your forum actions result in in game consequences? A forum ban might be in order, but not reimbursing all the isk...

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Since the fact that noone would of known about this if he didn't use the forums.

Originally by: Hey You

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Right, using the forum to scam has forum consequences, like warnings, or bans. But it's not supposed to have IG consquences, LIKE GETTING THEIR ISK BACK.

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the scam has in-game consiquences

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I know. But that's THEIR fault. CCP, as far as I know, HAS NEVER INTERFERED with the IG part of forum scams. And it looks like all they did it now for, was because more people got scammed then before, and some were IG celebrties, or forum *****s.

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Originally by: Pesadel0

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Originally by: General Tzu

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Originally by: Pesadel0

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Werent you one of the guys that was scammed.You are the one that is being lame.

This opens the pandora box .

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seriously. just step away from the keyboard if you don't have anything sensible to say. of course they are ****ed if they got scammed. but what the crap does that have to do with the content of their arguement.

in the words of the principal in Billy Madison.. "..everyone in this room is now more stupid for having listened to you. i award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

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Post with your main.

The content of their arguement is wrong ,because 1-they were scammed 2-they were refundead.

Are they super players that get more love from the DEVS then the rest of the EVE community?

But you are rigth i will back of from my keyboard cause this thing is making me feel sick.

/me starts drinking some porto whine

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Originally by: Pesadel0

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The content of their arguement is wrong ,because 1-they were scammed 2-they were refundead.

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Originally by: Kaeten

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please name another scam with the help of the forum that hasnt gone untouched by ccp, if you suceed I'll apologize and accept i was wrong.

Until then afaiak no SCAM has ever needed help of the forum, and if its legal to use the forum as an aid then lotterys, auctions, jump clone services and all that will turn to scams making the forums unreliable which imo is not the way to go, scams should be in-game ONLY.

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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The forum rule is not well thought out. Besides, since when do your forum actions result in in game consequences? A forum ban might be in order, but not reimbursing all the isk...

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Since the fact that noone would of known about this if he didn't use the forums.

Originally by: Hey You

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Right, using the forum to scam has forum consequences, like warnings, or bans. But it's not supposed to have IG consquences, LIKE GETTING THEIR ISK BACK.

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the scam has in-game consiquences

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I know. But that's THEIR fault. CCP, as far as I know, HAS NEVER INTERFERED with the IG part of forum scams. And it looks like all they did it now for, was because more people got scammed then before, and some were IG celebrties, or forum *****s.

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please name another scam with the help of the forum that hasnt gone untouched by ccp, if you suceed I'll apologize and accept i was wrong.

Until then afaiak no SCAM has ever needed help of the forum, and if its legal to use the forum as an aid then lotterys, auctions, jump clone services and all that will turn to scams making the forums unreliable which imo is not the way to go, scams should be in-game ONLY.

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Originally by: Jack Rippster

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How much ISK was scammed?

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Originally by: Kaeten

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here are the RULS of the forum.

"Make any false representation, including impersonation of any person or entity or misrepresentation of your affiliation with any person or entity;"

Meaning the scam was ilegal hence everyone gets their isk back.

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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The forum rule is not well thought out. Besides, since when do your forum actions result in in game consequences? A forum ban might be in order, but not reimbursing all the isk...

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Since the fact that noone would of known about this if he didn't use the forums.

Originally by: Hey You

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Right, using the forum to scam has forum consequences, like warnings, or bans. But it's not supposed to have IG consquences, LIKE GETTING THEIR ISK BACK.

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the scam has in-game consiquences

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I know. But that's THEIR fault. CCP, as far as I know, HAS NEVER INTERFERED with the IG part of forum scams. And it looks like all they did it now for, was because more people got scammed then before, and some were IG celebrties, or forum *****s.

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please name another scam with the help of the forum that hasnt gone untouched by ccp, if you suceed I'll apologize and accept i was wrong.

Until then afaiak no SCAM has ever needed help of the forum, and if its legal to use the forum as an aid then lotterys, auctions, jump clone services and all that will turn to scams making the forums unreliable which imo is not the way to go, scams should be in-game ONLY.

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You, obviously, didn't understand the full meaning of what I said. They have NEVER BEFORE INTERFERED IN THE IN-GAME ASPECT OF A FORUM SCAM, to my knowledge. They have never refunded, or other reprecussions that extended in-game, for a forum scam. They have warned/or temp banned people. But now, they crossed the threshold, and enlisted GM help for a forum scam, when there was a rule before that SAID THAT A GM WOULD NOT HELP IN SUCH A CASE.

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Originally by: Hey You

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Edited by: Hey You on 13/06/2006 23:22:04

Originally by: Kaeten

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here are the RULS of the forum.

"Make any false representation, including impersonation of any person or entity or misrepresentation of your affiliation with any person or entity;"

Meaning the scam was ilegal hence everyone gets their isk back.

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Quote:What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.



From the EVE-Online Support, see Ask a Question on the left. Seems pretty damn fcking clear to me.

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Hey You

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Edited by: Hey You on 13/06/2006 23:22:04

Originally by: Kaeten

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here are the RULS of the forum.

"Make any false representation, including impersonation of any person or entity or misrepresentation of your affiliation with any person or entity;"

Meaning the scam was ilegal hence everyone gets their isk back.

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Quote:What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.



From the EVE-Online Support, see Ask a Question on the left. Seems pretty damn fcking clear to me.

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as that is LEGAL IN-GAME that is perfectly right. However it MIXES WITH THE FORUM RULE "Make any false representation, including impersonation of any person or entity or misrepresentation of your affiliation with any person or entity;"

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Quote:

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That is because I do not belive noone has ever needed help of the forum to scam as I posted above the forum rules state "Make any false representation, including impersonation of any person or entity or misrepresentation of your affiliation with any person or entity;". Meaning the act was illegal.

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Quote:

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What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.

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Originally by: Kaeten

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here are the RULS of the forum.

"Make any false representation, including impersonation of any person or entity or misrepresentation of your affiliation with any person or entity;"
[\quote]

Forums would have been empty...

Quote:

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Quote:What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.



From the EVE-Online Support, see Ask a Question on the left. Seems pretty damn fcking clear to me.

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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The forum rule is not well thought out. Besides, since when do your forum actions result in in game consequences? A forum ban might be in order, but not reimbursing all the isk...

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Since the fact that noone would of known about this if he didn't use the forums.

Originally by: Hey You

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Right, using the forum to scam has forum consequences, like warnings, or bans. But it's not supposed to have IG consquences, LIKE GETTING THEIR ISK BACK.

---

the scam has in-game consiquences

---

I know. But that's THEIR fault. CCP, as far as I know, HAS NEVER INTERFERED with the IG part of forum scams. And it looks like all they did it now for, was because more people got scammed then before, and some were IG celebrties, or forum *****s.

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please name another scam with the help of the forum that hasnt gone untouched by ccp, if you suceed I'll apologize and accept i was wrong.

Until then afaiak no SCAM has ever needed help of the forum, and if its legal to use the forum as an aid then lotterys, auctions, jump clone services and all that will turn to scams making the forums unreliable which imo is not the way to go, scams should be in-game ONLY.

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You, obviously, didn't understand the full meaning of what I said. They have NEVER BEFORE INTERFERED IN THE IN-GAME ASPECT OF A FORUM SCAM, to my knowledge. They have never refunded, or other reprecussions that extended in-game, for a forum scam. They have warned/or temp banned people. But now, they crossed the threshold, and enlisted GM help for a forum scam, when there was a rule before that SAID THAT A GM WOULD NOT HELP IN SUCH A CASE.

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That is because I do not belive noone has ever needed help of the forum to scam as I posted above the forum rules state "Make any false representation, including impersonation of any person or entity or misrepresentation of your affiliation with any person or entity;". Meaning the act was illegal.

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Originally by: Minuet

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Quote:

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Quote:What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.



From the EVE-Online Support, see Ask a Question on the left. Seems pretty damn fcking clear to me.

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*sigh*

Please read.

If you wish to debate the grounds or appeal the ruling, please back your arguments with evidence and rational thought.

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Originally by: Minuet

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Quote:

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Quote:What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.



From the EVE-Online Support, see Ask a Question on the left. Seems pretty damn fcking clear to me.

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*sigh*

Please read.

If you wish to debate the grounds or appeal the ruling, please back your arguments with evidence and rational thought.

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Originally by: Monica Foulkes

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Edited by: Monica Foulkes on 13/06/2006 23:23:08

Originally by: Kaeten

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please name another scam with the help of the forum that hasnt gone untouched by ccp, if you suceed I'll apologize and accept i was wrong.

Until then afaiak no SCAM has ever needed help of the forum, and if its legal to use the forum as an aid then lotterys, auctions, jump clone services and all that will turn to scams making the forums unreliable which imo is not the way to go, scams should be in-game ONLY.

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Please scroll up to post 96.

Edit - missed some text in the quote

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Hey You

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Edited by: Hey You on 13/06/2006 23:22:04

Originally by: Kaeten

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here are the RULS of the forum.

"Make any false representation, including impersonation of any person or entity or misrepresentation of your affiliation with any person or entity;"

Meaning the scam was ilegal hence everyone gets their isk back.

---

Quote:What exactly is a scam?

A scam is when someone tries to use another playerÆs trust, confuse him and/or take advantage of his ignorance, to cheat him out of his possessions. When this happens, a GM will not be able to assist you.



From the EVE-Online Support, see Ask a Question on the left. Seems pretty damn fcking clear to me.

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as that is LEGAL IN-GAME that is perfectly right. However it MIXES WITH THE FORUM RULE "Make any false representation, including impersonation of any person or entity or misrepresentation of your affiliation with any person or entity;"

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OK, just to let you know, that rule makes NO sense.

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Minuet

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People need to read, understand, and think more before they post primarily under the influence of their emotions.

The protections extended by CCP under the "no scam" rule applies only to threads posted under the SELL ORDER forum. This is not unilateral protection -- those of you who want to, can still scam...just elsewhere.

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thank you, soemoen that knows the rules and thinks

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Originally by: Scorpyn

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"Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion."

What it says is that it's up to the GM:s to flip a coin regarding whether to do something or not.

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Originally by: Scorpyn

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Minuet

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People need to read, understand, and think more before they post primarily under the influence of their emotions.

The protections extended by CCP under the "no scam" rule applies only to threads posted under the SELL ORDER forum. This is not unilateral protection -- those of you who want to, can still scam...just elsewhere.

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thank you, soemoen that knows the rules and thinks

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"Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion."

What it says is that it's up to the GM:s to flip a coin regarding whether to do something or not.

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Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

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Originally by: Scorpyn

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"Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion."

What it says is that it's up to the GM:s to flip a coin regarding whether to do something or not.

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Its a good thing the GM's don't play the game, or they might be rather biased when determining the outcome of such subjective situations. Oh wait...

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Scorpyn

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Minuet

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People need to read, understand, and think more before they post primarily under the influence of their emotions.

The protections extended by CCP under the "no scam" rule applies only to threads posted under the SELL ORDER forum. This is not unilateral protection -- those of you who want to, can still scam...just elsewhere.

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thank you, soemoen that knows the rules and thinks

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"Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion."

What it says is that it's up to the GM:s to flip a coin regarding whether to do something or not.

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thank you, must of missed that

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Originally by: Khatred

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Wrong call on this one

What it should have been done imo:
Ban the scammer from forums (obviously, it's in the forum rules)
If IPO scamming is really becoming a concern for CCP, on next patch make the following change: As pirates with bounties on their heads have "Wanted", add to the scammer character and all the other characters that belong to him "Scammer" or "Corp Thief" in big red letters. Case closed.

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Quote:

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Err, that was i quoted comes directly from the Player Support Database, whereas your thread is just that. A thead, were a bunch of forumposters discuss this. No post by CCP. I suggest you take your own advice: Back your arguments with evidence.

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Originally by: Tristan Acoma

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Edited by: Tristan Acoma on 13/06/2006 23:40:39

Originally by: Khatred

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Wrong call on this one

What it should have been done imo:
Ban the scammer from forums (obviously, it's in the forum rules)
If IPO scamming is really becoming a concern for CCP, on next patch make the following change: As pirates with bounties on their heads have "Wanted", add to the scammer character and all the other characters that belong to him "Scammer" or "Corp Thief" in big red letters. Case closed.

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And then, you can mark anyone who PVPs a "Agressor"
And then, you can mark anyone who steals from a can "Can Theif"
And then, you can mark anyone who equips guns a "Violent Player"
And then........

Because in the real world people have tatoos on their forhead that tell you who they are and what bad things they've done :)

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Originally by: Khatred

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Originally by: Tristan Acoma

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Edited by: Tristan Acoma on 13/06/2006 23:40:39

Originally by: Khatred

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Wrong call on this one

What it should have been done imo:
Ban the scammer from forums (obviously, it's in the forum rules)
If IPO scamming is really becoming a concern for CCP, on next patch make the following change: As pirates with bounties on their heads have "Wanted", add to the scammer character and all the other characters that belong to him "Scammer" or "Corp Thief" in big red letters. Case closed.

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And then, you can mark anyone who PVPs a "Agressor"
And then, you can mark anyone who steals from a can "Can Theif"
And then, you can mark anyone who equips guns a "Violent Player"
And then........

Because in the real world people have tatoos on their forhead that tell you who they are and what bad things they've done :)

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Do you try to look cool? Do you have alts in RL? Cause I want some too, would be pretty handy in the house. When you scam, you trade your reputation for isk. When you're pirating, you trade your safety for isk.

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Originally by: Khatred

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Do you try to look cool? Do you have alts in RL? Cause I want some too, would be pretty handy in the house. When you scam, you trade your reputation for isk. When you're pirating, you trade your safety for isk.

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Quote:

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Wrong call on this one

What it should have been done imo:
Ban the scammer from forums (obviously, it's in the forum rules)
If IPO scamming is really becoming a concern for CCP, on next patch make the following change: As pirates with bounties on their heads have "Wanted", add to the scammer character and all the other characters that belong to him "Scammer" or "Corp Thief" in big red letters. Case closed.

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Originally by: Scorpyn

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Scorpyn

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Minuet

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People need to read, understand, and think more before they post primarily under the influence of their emotions.

The protections extended by CCP under the "no scam" rule applies only to threads posted under the SELL ORDER forum. This is not unilateral protection -- those of you who want to, can still scam...just elsewhere.

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thank you, soemoen that knows the rules and thinks

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"Scams involving characters transfers and ETC's are not allowed and will have repercussions in game. Other scams MAY have in game repercussions, at the GMs discretion."

What it says is that it's up to the GM:s to flip a coin regarding whether to do something or not.

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thank you, must of missed that

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Linkageits

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Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Khatred

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Originally by: Tristan Acoma

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Edited by: Tristan Acoma on 13/06/2006 23:40:39

Originally by: Khatred

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Wrong call on this one

What it should have been done imo:
Ban the scammer from forums (obviously, it's in the forum rules)
If IPO scamming is really becoming a concern for CCP, on next patch make the following change: As pirates with bounties on their heads have "Wanted", add to the scammer character and all the other characters that belong to him "Scammer" or "Corp Thief" in big red letters. Case closed.

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And then, you can mark anyone who PVPs a "Agressor"
And then, you can mark anyone who steals from a can "Can Theif"
And then, you can mark anyone who equips guns a "Violent Player"
And then........

Because in the real world people have tatoos on their forhead that tell you who they are and what bad things they've done :)

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Do you try to look cool? Do you have alts in RL? Cause I want some too, would be pretty handy in the house. When you scam, you trade your reputation for isk. When you're pirating, you trade your safety for isk.

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You can have RL alts, though.. Different identities, and all..

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Originally by: Tristan Acoma

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And then, you can mark anyone who PVPs a "Agressor"
And then, you can mark anyone who steals from a can "Can Theif"
And then, you can mark anyone who equips guns a "Violent Player"
And then........

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Originally by: stingy CEO

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etc. etc. etc.

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Hey You

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You can have RL alts, though.. Different identities, and all..

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true

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Originally by: Khatred

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smartass.

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Originally by: TheMoog

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Originally by: Tristan Acoma

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And then, you can mark anyone who PVPs a "Agressor"
And then, you can mark anyone who steals from a can "Can Theif"
And then, you can mark anyone who equips guns a "Violent Player"
And then........

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Yeah, Stay the Course, Man.

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Originally by: Tristan Acoma

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Hey You

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You can have RL alts, though.. Different identities, and all..

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true

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And I quote:

Originally by: Khatred

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smartass.

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Originally by: Khatred

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Ok, I give up. Remove negative standings for pirating too

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Originally by: Hunters Presence

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I understand CCP's reasoning. The rules were broken, therefore under the EULA CCP can, following their own rules set out prior, whatever they like. That includes reinbursement, banning, etc, etc.

Personally, I'd be very glad to see a new standard that protects those who might take part in IPOs. Market trades are protected by the SCC, so why not IPOs?

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Originally by: Tristan Acoma

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Originally by: Kaeten

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Originally by: Hey You

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You can have RL alts, though.. Different identities, and all..

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true

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And I quote:

Originally by: Khatred

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smartass.

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Originally by: Khatred

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Now you are being stupid. My "smartass" comment was directed to your "And then, you can mark anyone who PVPs a "Agressor" ". yes, you can.

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Originally by: Khatred

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Wrong call on this one

What it should have been done imo:
Ban the scammer from forums (obviously, it's in the forum rules)
If IPO scamming is really becoming a concern for CCP, on next patch make the following change: As pirates with bounties on their heads have "Wanted", add to the scammer character and all the other characters that belong to him "Scammer" or "Corp Thief" in big red letters. Case closed.

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Originally by: Tristan Acoma

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Edited by: Tristan Acoma on 13/06/2006 23:54:06

Originally by: Khatred

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Now you are being stupid. My "smartass" comment was directed to your "And then, you can mark anyone who PVPs a "Agressor" ". yes, you can.

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Fair enough, if offtopic. However you then misunderstood the point of that - if you read the comment, you'd know I was replying to a comment about CCP adding titles to people's profiles in big red block letters, something you can't do right now. 2am post reading 4tw for you :)

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Quote:

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I'm not in the best mood when I have to watch a 5 days years old that wakes up every 2 hours

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Originally by: Just Smith

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well as i guess they can't realy take the isk back now might be nice for them to say this was a total one off and will never happen again on ccp part. Cus this will open a can of worms if they say noting

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Originally by: Hunters Presence

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You get what you agreed too, so the SCC won't protect you. With IPO scams, you don't get what you agreed to. Hence the need for intervention in a market economy. Usually, such would be handled by the state or the state's enforcer. In EVE, that's the SCC. Are the SCC ASLEEP?

By not protecting IPOs, they become next to useless except for major businesses like the ISS (and the ISS is a business, whatever else they may claim). This means venture capitalism, a vital part of an ultra-capitalist system, will remain rare within EVE and that would be sad.

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