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Refs and cards in this World Cup

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Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.17 23:26:00 - [1] These refs and cards are ridiculous. First the stupid red+yellow on penalty kick in Czech Ghana game and then red cards against Americans. It seems like it is impossible now to cause a penalty kick without getting sent off. This seems new. And also it looks like you cant slide tackle any more either because you dont know what a ref might do. I think that these teams spent years on qualifying and there should be some respect towards this from refs and FIFA. I dont think its the time to try changes in rule interpretations during World Cups. If they want more goals why not start a game with 9 players. Todays games were basically ruined by refs. And it seems likely that the way things are going this World Cup will be decided by ref mistake.
DirtyHarry	Posted - 2006.06.17 23:53:00 - [2] Its because USA is terrible and if the teams cant stop them winning, the refs will. (go brazil) -Havo ------------------- DirtyHarry ~ Havocide - yarr tbh "Take from the rich and put it on eBay" - zincol
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.18 00:20:00 - [3] Italy was more terrible. But anyway the whole group E is a group of primma donna teams. Whoever is favored to win a game just figures that they will win automatically and does not even have to play. First it was USA with "world cup champs or failure" attitude getting their teeth kicked in, then it was Czech's I guess too much partying and celebrating going through to next round the night before playing Ghana and now it was Italy's turn. Brazil should probably also be in this group if they dont get their act together.
Galk	Posted - 2006.06.18 01:08:00 - [4] Originally by: Rthor Italy was more terrible. The truth, they were yet again pulling all the old dirty tricks in defence again tonight. Hands over the shoulders, checking players, it never changes. Hats off to the americans tonight, you pulled a blinder all things considerd. ______ Long ago one gorgeous night, we let the stars grow free. We let Zhuge do that once, he came back carrying a traffic cone, a forsale sign and three empty bottles of dutch lager. He also lost his Zimmer Frame... - Imaran
Luc Boye	Posted - 2006.06.18 01:11:00 - [5] Originally by: Rthor First the stupid red+yellow on penalty kick in Czech Ghana game and then red cards against Americans. Tbh the way ppl tackled with feet first going for opponents feet, Im amazed there weren't even more red cards. And if someone still doesn't get it, RTFM. Fotball != UFC
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2006.06.18 06:13:00 - [6] Originally by: Rthor And also it looks like you cant slide tackle any more either because you dont know what a ref might do. Well, that's a start. In an ideal world, you can't slide tackle because you DO know what a ref will do - automatically send you off. If we want more goals, we ought to eliminate all the plays that stop goals, like dangerous sliding tackles, shirt pulling, barging off the ball and so on. At least FIFA are making a start. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
HolographicEntrypoint	Posted - 2006.06.18 11:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Luc Boye Originally by: Rthor Fotball != UFC rofl --- ^ Convo/Evemail for custom sig! My custom EvE Signature Gallery
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.18 12:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Rthor And also it looks like you cant slide tackle any more either because you dont know what a ref might do. Well, that's a start. In an ideal world, you can't slide tackle because you DO know what a ref will do - automatically send you off. If we want more goals, we ought to eliminate all the plays that stop goals, like dangerous sliding tackles, shirt pulling, barging off the ball and so on. At least FIFA are making a start. Cheating like this is bad right enough and the offenders should get punished but some of the cards are frankly ridiculous. We dont' want 'more goals'. We want cleaner games but it seems that the game is less and less of a contact sport, turning more into 'kiss-ball' that it gets christened by rugby players. Players foul all over the pitch, attackers and defenders alike. Stamping out anything approaching a hard challenge or a shoulder barge even, is making the game boring. The 'dive merchants' are getting their own way more and more but never get punished.
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.18 12:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr ....barging off the ball.... It's called a shoulder barge and is allowed. Just because the opponant falls like he's been shot by an elephant gun weilding sniper in row X doesn't mean he was fouled.
Soulis	Posted - 2006.06.18 13:49:00 - [10] a few years and football will be a non contact sport. mark my words! Shinra - The Good Guys
BlackHole Bob	Posted - 2006.06.18 17:25:00 - [11] Edited by: BlackHole Bob on 18/06/2006 17:28:17 I watched the whole Italy/USa game... The first red card was deserved... the rest were not...they were just good old fashioned football... I can understand being alot tougher on rough play and to "play the ball" as football is meant to be played...we sure dont want to see USA basketball meets USA football when it comes to elbows and playing the player and not the ball.. but honestly...red carding in the Italy/USA game was nothing short of just a poor poor ref and also a poor poor game...it changed the whole momentum over and over and ruined what was a great game... IMHO the ref that pulled all three of those red cards should not referee another game of any professional caliber....he also had a big issue a few years back and was questioned for his calls then BIG TIME.... Blackhole Bob EvE IGB "in game" player guide
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.06.18 19:01:00 - [12] I still think soccer would be alot more interesting if people kicked around a severed head like they used to.
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2006.06.18 20:01:00 - [13] Originally by: BlackHole Bob Edited by: BlackHole Bob on 18/06/2006 17:28:17 I watched the whole Italy/USa game... The first red card was deserved... the rest were not...they were just good old fashioned football... It's exactly that sort of "old fashioned football" that FIFA is trying to eradicate. It's supposed to be a game of skill, not a game of clunk into the guy with the ball and try to rip his feet off. Which is why all three red cards were absolutely deserved. Anyone arguing otherwise simply does not know the rules of the game. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.18 22:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: BlackHole Bob Edited by: BlackHole Bob on 18/06/2006 17:28:17 I watched the whole Italy/USa game... The first red card was deserved... the rest were not...they were just good old fashioned football... It's exactly that sort of "old fashioned football" that FIFA is trying to eradicate. It's supposed to be a game of skill, not a game of clunk into the guy with the ball and try to rip his feet off. Which is why all three red cards were absolutely deserved. Anyone arguing otherwise simply does not know the rules of the game. This isnt the level of the 40's and 50's where you could get away with ramming a keeper into a goal and score just cos he was holding the ball at the time. Most of the cards are for the player making a great tackle but the opponant falling over through lack of balance and not necessarily being fouled. It is a contact sport. It is in the rules of the game that contact is allowed. It is the difference between a game in the English Leagues and the continental leagues where play acting is more prevelant (not exclusively held though). Hell, i used to play rugby in Germany and we were awared penalties against us for tackling aggresively... their football is played in much the same spirit. If a player falls over, it doesn't necessarily mean that the tackler meant to take his ankles from him. 9/10 times it's because he lost his balance. Watch the game, you might learn something. Refs ruin the game if they take the aggresive side of the game away, it doesn't mean it will be more skilful.
Semblence	Posted - 2006.06.19 01:11:00 - [15] While we're at it, let's retrospectively give Bobby Moore the red card for the best tackle ever made - England vs Brazil 1970, (you know the one I mean, it also featured the best save ever by Gordon Banks, England's goalkeeper.) It is a bit strange, FIFA change the ball and tweak the rules at the worst possible time. The World Cup should be a fair contest to find out who the world's best team is, and yet every time they throw a couple of new variables in, for the benefit of Addidas (the makers of the ball) and some ill-conceived idea of what will make the game "better". More goals does not necessarily mean better, and certainly, banning the world's best players from playing (eg Zidane!) in what could turn out to be one-third of France's games nicely defeats the purpose, as does watching 10 knackered players vs 9 slightly more knackered players. What happens when someone gets sent off? If they are winning or tied, the manager takes off an attacker and replaces with a defender. If they are losing, the game is effectively over as a contest. Either way, it defeats the purpose. Send them off for diving, not the odd mis-timed challenge. And certainly do not give yellow cards to the Ghanaian guy who took the penalty too early or Zidane who bumped into a defender after the ball had gone dead.
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.19 02:22:00 - [16] These cards do not make the game better. I dont think that I have seen one card for diving or faking yet. So the message is dive and you will get the other team in trouble at no risk to you. By the time players get to the final there will be a ton of star players missing suspended for 2nd yellow cards they get in the semi final games.
Mak'shar Karrde	Posted - 2006.06.19 02:28:00 - [17] Edited by: Mak''shar Karrde on 19/06/2006 02:31:05 Everyone wants the refs to ***** (bloody filter) down on diving but if just one of their players gets wrongly carded they will call foul. Either call for the introduction of video replays or accept the game for what it is: An entertaining game moderated by people who can only see a situation once, not always at a good angle/distance. Sometimes decisions go against you, sometimes you benefit from them. The downside is that you would get a very stop/start game unless you set a limit on the times each team is allowed to 'appeal' in a given game. Nobody wants Football to turn into American football. The flow of the game is very important. My prefered method to reduce diving would be for the officials to review a tape of game afterwards and give out match bans for blatent offences not caught during the game. It would not reduce the flow of the game and it would reduce diving so long as the penalty is harsh enough. I imagine the Chelsea BOD would start getting really frustrated if they kept losing Drogba every other game. (just an overexaggerated example (I'm not a fan, I admit it)). Obviously, whatever is decided, the result of the game must remain the same. Having said that, I didn't have a lot of problems with the three sending offs in the USA v Italy game. If I recall, it's only happened 4 times in WC history. The ref may have been strict but he didn't push the players into sliding in with studs showing. I know it's hard for the losing side to accept but sometimes you just get the tough refs. It's a lot easier to see a foul than a dive (why do you think so many players do it). You can lay some of the blame on Fifa for demanding that refs get tough on stud-showing-tackles but it's not a new thing. Wasn't it tackles from behind in the last World Cup that they tried to eradicate? They're not introducing new rules from nothing though, they're only encouraging them to enforce (albeit over-zelously) long standing rules. The players are partly to blame, especially if someone gets sent off for such a thing 'after' the USA/Italy game. Although I still like the idea of allowing each team one appeal per game. It would only be allowed when the ball is not in play and would prompt the ref to contact someone in a position to verify his last decision. Give the job to the 5th official or something, It's not like he ever does anything anyway (I know he is a backup linesman). It certainly would have helped France today with their disallowed goal... Or maybe not, considering no French player seemed all that bothered (still, I liked seeing them draw, HAH!). (Please forgive any basic factual errors In this post, it's gone 3am now. Can I also use the same reason to excuse any waffling? As for spelling errors, I don't apologise for those... I tried!).
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2006.06.19 04:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Harris Most of the cards are for the player making a great tackle but the opponant falling over through lack of balance and not necessarily being fouled. Like I said. Does not understand the rules of the game. YOU CANNOT SLIDE IN. It's no longer allowed, and it results in an automatic red card. If you leave your feet, you're leaving the field of play. You might not like it. I might not like it. But since neither you or I are FIFA, our opinions don't mean jack diddly squat. Sliding tackles ARE NOT ALLOWED. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Dimitri Chandler	Posted - 2006.06.19 05:34:00 - [19] The yellow card that Ronaldo got for timewasting by shooting when the whistle had gone was ridiculous, with 23000 idiots in the crowd all blowing whistles. The refs are completely over the top this year. Its spoiling the game. Exiles recruiting Fluffled -Suvetar
Jon Hawkes	Posted - 2006.06.19 07:37:00 - [20] The sooner they make it an instant yellow card for appealing to the referee to book an opposing player, the happier I'll be. There's no excuse for it, it's petty and unsporting, and frankly embarrassing to watch!
Doonwong	Posted - 2006.06.19 08:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Harris Most of the cards are for the player making a great tackle but the opponant falling over through lack of balance and not necessarily being fouled. Like I said. Does not understand the rules of the game. YOU CANNOT SLIDE IN. It's no longer allowed, and it results in an automatic red card. If you leave your feet, you're leaving the field of play. You might not like it. I might not like it. But since neither you or I are FIFA, our opinions don't mean jack diddly squat. Sliding tackles ARE NOT ALLOWED. Actually I think you'll find that sliding tackles are allowed as long you take the ball and not the player, try to get your facts straight before posting absolute nonsense. If you can find anywhere in the rule book that outlaws a sliding tackle I'll eat my own shoes.
Scots Crusader	Posted - 2006.06.19 08:27:00 - [22] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Rthor And also it looks like you cant slide tackle any more either because you dont know what a ref might do. Well, that's a start. In an ideal world, you can't slide tackle because you DO know what a ref will do - automatically send you off. If we want more goals, we ought to eliminate all the plays that stop goals, like dangerous sliding tackles, shirt pulling, barging off the ball and so on. At least FIFA are making a start. Eliminate all the players that stop goals!!!!! That pretty much describes the goalkeepers!!! FIFA are not making a start, they are making an end. They are eliminating ALL SLIDING TACkLES the way I see it, not just the dangerous ones. I love watching a good attacking team(Brasil, Portugal etc) but I also love watching a good hard physical battle to. If we go the way FIFA(and you) seem to want, Brasil will win every tournament as no one will be allowed to tackle them. Players have become soft, because the football ruling bodies are promoting that. ----------------------------------------------- O wad some power, the giftie gie us, To see oursels as ithers see us!

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:09:00 - [23] I'm so glad I'm not balancing football. _______________

Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:11:00 - [24] Edited by: Sarmaul on 19/06/2006 09:10:54 gah dbl Make Khanid Useful!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Tuxford I'm so glad I'm not balancing football. Make Khanid Useful!
NTRabbit	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:33:00 - [26] The reffing in the Brazil v Australia game heavily favoured the Brazilians, the German ref essentially outlawed anything remotely physical and gave out fouls for looking at the player wrong. He also ended the game with 2 minutes of stoppage time left to play, to complete the picture of "favouritism for the favourites" --------

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:36:00 - [27] Originally by: NTRabbit The reffing in the Brazil v Australia game heavily favoured the Brazilians, the German ref essentially outlawed anything remotely physical and gave out fouls for looking at the player wrong. He also ended the game with 2 minutes of stoppage time left to play, to complete the picture of "favouritism for the favourites" Well thats the thing, I didn't really mind those cards in Italy vs. USA since they were all deserved, but the refs seem intent on slowing down the game for some reason. _______________

Harris	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:36:00 - [28] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Harris Most of the cards are for the player making a great tackle but the opponant falling over through lack of balance and not necessarily being fouled. Like I said. Does not understand the rules of the game. YOU CANNOT SLIDE IN. It's no longer allowed, and it results in an automatic red card. If you leave your feet, you're leaving the field of play. You might not like it. I might not like it. But since neither you or I are FIFA, our opinions don't mean jack diddly squat. Sliding tackles ARE NOT ALLOWED. Like I said, watch the game, you might learn something. Rules of the game. Just in case you miss it. Quote: Sending-off offences A player is sent off and shown the red card if he commits any of the following seven offences: 1. is guilty of serious foul play 2. is guilty of violent conduct 3. spits at an opponent or any other person 4. denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area) 5. denies an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the playerÆs goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick 6. uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures 7. receives a second caution in the same match So no, sliding tackles do not constitute a red card offence. Quote: Direct free kick A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following six offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force: * kicks or attempts to kick an opponent * trips or attempts to trip an opponent * jumps at an opponent * charges an opponent * strikes or attempts to strike an opponent * pushes an opponent A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following four offences: * tackles an opponent to gain possession of the ball, making contact with the opponent before touching the ball * holds an opponent * spits at an opponent * handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area) It is what is interpreted as any of the above that is what is changing/was changed for the world cup in particular. You can make a clean tackle sliding in, if you take the ball for example. (It has happend, i've seen it. quel surprise) At the moment, if the player falls over your legs then it is getting interpreted as a foul by some referees. But not all of them. Which backs up the view that it is the interpretation that is the problem. Learn the rules. Learn to interpet them properly. Opinions dont mean squat unless backed up by fact.
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:43:00 - [29] Originally by: NTRabbit The reffing in the Brazil v Australia game heavily favoured the Brazilians, the German ref essentially outlawed anything remotely physical and gave out fouls for looking at the player wrong. He also ended the game with 2 minutes of stoppage time left to play, to complete the picture of "favouritism for the favourites" Used to play in a team when we had a game which was abandoned because, the ref literally lost it and walked off. His last act was to book a player for 'looking at him aggresively' It was the wrong player that he wrote down anyway but he picked up the ball and walked off saying 'I've had enough, i get no respect'. Bless him the guy was awful. Both teams were bemused.
Mather Maelstrom	Posted - 2006.06.19 09:52:00 - [30] Edited by: Mather Maelstrom on 19/06/2006 09:54:51 Both Italy and America should be a bit ashamed for the amount of red & yellow cards given during that game. Every card given during that match is in my opinion correct. The tackle made by the USA has by rules correctly given a red card. Anything less then a red card would have been a wrong decision. We are not watching American football. If there would be more violence on the field I wouldnÆt be watching football anymore. This might explain why the red card was given: Only watch if you can take a few broken bones and some violence on the field. click pic nasty injury due to a tackle from behind click2 a lot of random violent acts on teh field with several nasty tackles click3 click4 That is why I am happy refs hand out a lot of cards and in fact there were some tackles during other matches that should have gotten a card and even one that should have been given a red card (same tackle as the USA one, but only given a yellow card). //No Pro Gallente RP, no Coreli & Cyrene anymore\\
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.19 10:11:00 - [31] Originally by: Mather Maelstrom Edited by: Mather Maelstrom on 19/06/2006 09:59:45 Both Italy and America should be a bit ashamed for the amount of red & yellow cards given during that game. Every card given during that match is in my opinion correct. The tackle made by the USA has by rules correctly given a red card. Anything less then a red card would have been a wrong decision. We are not watching American football. If there would be more violence on the field I wouldnÆt be watching football anymore. This might explain why the red card was given: Only watch if you can take a few broken bones and some violence on the field. click pic nasty injury due to a tackle from behind click2 a lot of random violent acts on teh field with several nasty tackles click3 again a kick from behind click4 this one so you get a good picture on how much it hurts and to open some minds on the forums. That is why I am happy refs hand out a lot of cards. Those tackles come in a lot harder then some of you seem to realize. In fact there were some more tackles during other matches that should have gotten a card. There is even one that should have been given a red card (same tackle as the USA one, but only given a yellow card). Nice collection of clips there. Some showing genuine bad luck (Cisse for instance, both cases tangles of legs, not player diving in), some outright outrageous behaviour which you'll get in every walk of life. (The mascots that were fighting... can't book them now can you?). Perhaps more so in competetive sport when passions can run high. Most of those cases are those where cards are deserved. The problem at the moment is that cards are also being given out for innocent challenges or even downright excellent tackles. Should the player make one more mistake during the game he's off, when he should only have been on a warning (yellow). Give free kicks, for sure. That's what they're there for. But hold off on the yellow till someone actually deserves it by breaking the laws of the game. Otherwise you set a precedent and end up with 7 a side for no other reason than the ref trying to make a name for his-self. (did so like paulo di-canio pushing the ref into his theatrical fall. laughed for ages when that happened) Seriously, I play football like a zillion other people and am fully aware of how hard challenges can come in (fractured ankle worst injury I've had due to a bad tackle), but it's a physical game and if I don't like it, i can always go and play tiddly winks.
Mather Maelstrom	Posted - 2006.06.19 10:23:00 - [32] I wanted to make clear how easily things can go wrong. There have indeed been some cards given that shouldn't have to, but I think in the match between Italy and the USA every card was fair. That tackle could have ended up in one of the above cases. It is not something you wish to see in a World Cup match. I also think that de Rossi shouldn't be allowed to play any further in World Cup, because of that elbow punch. //No Pro Gallente RP, no Coreli & Cyrene anymore\\
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.19 10:36:00 - [33] Edited by: Harris on 19/06/2006 10:43:08 Spelling Originally by: Mather Maelstrom I wanted to make clear how easily things can go wrong. There have indeed been some cards given that shouldn't have to, but I think in the match between Italy and the USA every card was fair. That tackle could have ended up in one of the above cases. It is not something you wish to see in a World Cup match. I also think that de Rossi shouldn't be allowed to play any further in World Cup, because of that elbow punch. Fair point then. I just think that the people who run the game need to be careful that we don't move to far away from the physical side of things. Hell, David Buust dropped onto his leg and it snapped clean beneath him with no involvement from anyone. (Man City Vs Man Utd). The point? It can happen at any time in the most unfortunate of circumstances and you can't legislate for that. Some guys are susceptible to injuries. Other guys can take a hit and walk away with a bit of bruising. Malicious intent or persistant infringement is where the line is with regards the cards. As for the red cards, on balance with the way the refs have been working, no real complaints I guess but a couple of them were harsh I think.
Scots Crusader	Posted - 2006.06.19 10:42:00 - [34] I agree, punish players for BAD tackles. But players are being punished for ANY tackle. 1970 was the first time bookings were allowed in the World Cup. That year there were none, but this year there has been half a dozen already, are you telling me that football is that much dirtier and harder than it was back then??? I think not. A tackle from behind is potentially a bad tackle, therefore, give a foul. But not all warrant a booking. But it has gone beyond that, a perfectly good tackle from the side is being punished because contact is being made with the player and he is going down like Parker with his strings cut!!!! Come on, that is not football. Fottball is a contact sport, or at least was. I agree that skillful players needed protection(everyone has seen Pele getting lumps kicked out of him) but it has gone way too far. A tackle is slowly becoming a thing of the past. But is that fair on the avarage international player, who needs to rely on workrate and aggression to compete against the games better players. ----------------------------------------------- O wad some power, the giftie gie us, To see oursels as ithers see us!
Xrak	Posted - 2006.06.19 14:06:00 - [35] tbh relying on 1 man to make the call is utterly stupid, all cards shud be able to be overturned by a group of refs watching the replays and looking from other angles.
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.19 14:26:00 - [36] Originally by: Xrak tbh relying on 1 man to make the call is utterly stupid, all cards shud be able to be overturned by a group of refs watching the replays and looking from other angles. 2 Issues. First is that the linesmen are supposed to be able to help but they normally only ever contribute in increasing number of cards given out but theoretically, the ref isn't on his own. Secondly, any changes to the game need to be those which can be promulgated at all levels, down to grass roots sunday league. At the moment, pretty much every nuance of top flight footy can be applied at down to the lowest level. The only differences are things like whether linesmen are present officially or not (usually it's a sub running the line for a half at the lowest levels or none at all in some kids leagues) and the presence of a fourth/fifth official. If you start to introduce changes that break from that then you are changing the nature of the game between the different levels and that is something not to be taken lightly. Having a comittee to decide on fouls and the like at every game would slow it down to unbelievable levels. The ref is the one who'd have to decide to go to replay, well, he usually has a blooming good idea what the outcome would be and he has to go with his gut. They'll make mistakes sometimes but as long as they show common sense then there shouldn't be a problem and it should balance out in the end. Why bother putting it to other guys for 1-2 minutes worth of decision when it will probably be the same? It just wouldn't work as it should. Unless the US TV firms got their way in which case they'd cut to ads every 30 seconds in a rough match.
Sharcy	Posted - 2006.06.19 14:26:00 - [37] The quality level of referees in this championship has so far been the best I've ever seen at a big tournament. All the red cards I've seen were deserved, including the Czech one saturday (the Ghana player was in a position to score, so if you rule that he was fouled, you have to give red). What's more, the linesmen have a very good eye for off-side, which I find rather unique. -- Sonnema is recruiting!
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.19 16:25:00 - [38] Edited by: Rthor on 19/06/2006 16:34:05 Originally by: Sharcy The quality level of referees in this championship has so far been the best I've ever seen at a big tournament. All the red cards I've seen were deserved, including the Czech one saturday (the Ghana player was in a position to score, so if you rule that he was fouled, you have to give red). What's more, the linesmen have a very good eye for off-side, which I find rather unique. But is not the penalty kick punishment enough? If you give the card and a penalty it basically ends a game. And there could not have been any additional factors on the Czech red card because it was the weakest foul ever. Czech guys basically hit the bottom of the Ghanian's shoe lightly which probably should not have even caused a fall if the striker had normal balance and will to create a shot rather than fall and rely on ref calling a PK. If I were a striker with this kind of officiating I would not take any shots at all I would just dive all over the place hoping for PK and a red card for the defense whenever somebody touches me because if they call it I just won a game.
Xrak	Posted - 2006.06.19 16:34:00 - [39] Originally by: Harris Originally by: Xrak tbh relying on 1 man to make the call is utterly stupid, all cards shud be able to be overturned by a group of refs watching the replays and looking from other angles. 2 Issues. First is that the linesmen are supposed to be able to help but they normally only ever contribute in increasing number of cards given out but theoretically, the ref isn't on his own. Secondly, any changes to the game need to be those which can be promulgated at all levels, down to grass roots sunday league. At the moment, pretty much every nuance of top flight footy can be applied at down to the lowest level. The only differences are things like whether linesmen are present officially or not (usually it's a sub running the line for a half at the lowest levels or none at all in some kids leagues) and the presence of a fourth/fifth official. If you start to introduce changes that break from that then you are changing the nature of the game between the different levels and that is something not to be taken lightly. Having a comittee to decide on fouls and the like at every game would slow it down to unbelievable levels. The ref is the one who'd have to decide to go to replay, well, he usually has a blooming good idea what the outcome would be and he has to go with his gut. They'll make mistakes sometimes but as long as they show common sense then there shouldn't be a problem and it should balance out in the end. Why bother putting it to other guys for 1-2 minutes worth of decision when it will probably be the same? It just wouldn't work as it should. Unless the US TV firms got their way in which case they'd cut to ads every 30 seconds in a rough match. First. To quote a highly intelligent person (lol) "In theory Communism works". Secondly. I ment it in a less obtrusive way. The group would be simply for overturning decisions such as yellow/red cards or whether a goal was actually scored etc. This would be done after the game or during it but not interupting it.
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.19 17:59:00 - [40] Originally by: Xrak First. To quote a highly intelligent person (lol) "In theory Communism works". Secondly. I ment it in a less obtrusive way. The group would be simply for overturning decisions such as yellow/red cards or whether a goal was actually scored etc. This would be done after the game or during it but not interupting it. Firstly, I did say Quote: ...that the linesmen are supposed to be able to help... No system is perfect. It is up to FIFA to give direction for more common sense, not blind enforcement of rules against any physical contact. Secondly. There is already a sytstem in place where cards can be rescinded. This is based on either mistaken identity on the refs part in which case the team can make an appeal, or the refs own judgement when he files his report and is able to make a recommendation to that effect. Player gets sent of, panel over turns his card, does the game get replayed so it's 11-11 not 11-10. What if it happens again. How many replays? It would create far more problems than it would solve. Thirdly. How would you make it even feasible to rescind/allow goals after the match has already finished??? Teams change their approach and games turn on goals scored. Do you suggest that a team should be told that they didn't in fact win a game 10 minutes after the final whistle but in fact the refs decision has been over turned and they drew it and there must be a replay??? It's a nice theory but in football you cannot change the result of a match after it has been played. (unless matches are fixed of course but even then, the result is rarely voided, just the offending team punished with points deduction or something) If it were to be introduced during matches at all, it should be thought out very very carefully and then only used if there was a definate stoppage in play. There may then be a case for it being unobtrusive, but again, it can't be applied to all levels so it's not an ideal change.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.19 18:04:00 - [41] Referees were told specifically to clamp down on certain things this world cup. Some things included: Reckless tackling (the USA player's sending off vs Italy) Use of Elbows (Di Rossi sending off vs USA) 'Last Man' fouls (hence the red cards before penalties) Poor Behaviour Sarmaul, Naughty Boy, Weirda, Kaylana, readme please :)
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.19 18:05:00 - [42] Originally by: Xrak tbh relying on 1 man to make the call is utterly stupid, all cards shud be able to be overturned by a group of refs watching the replays and looking from other angles. Totally. Football is so resistant to this it's stupid. They even have a monitor on the edge of the pitch for the 4th/5th official right now in the World Cup, but the ref isn't allowed to request replays :S Sarmaul, Naughty Boy, Weirda, Kaylana, readme please :)
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.19 18:13:00 - [43] Originally by: Testy Mctest Referees were told specifically to clamp down on certain things this world cup. Some things included: Reckless tackling (the USA player's sending off vs Italy) Use of Elbows (Di Rossi sending off vs USA) 'Last Man' fouls (hence the red cards before penalties) Poor Behaviour The question is what is termed 'reckless'? Some of the times when players have gone in sliding, they've won the ball fair and square and still been penalised. Not even touching the opponant but he 'fell over' the ball as it was taken from him. That or shoulder barges (not ramming off of the pitch) being stopped for the simple fact that the opponant let his legs give way on contact and held his arms up in protest......... I mean.. wtf Are these men or mice? Where is their pride For all my opinionated diatribe (sorry folks), what I fear the most is tackling being taken away from the game as it then ceases to be competative and then comes down to who can do the most tricks to dummy opponants etc or who can dive the best to con the ref. (half way there already). As for the rest of the things they've been told to clamp down on, absolutley on them, it makes sense. Just this matter of perception really isn't it.... .... who'd be a ref?????????
Sharcy	Posted - 2006.06.20 06:32:00 - [44] Originally by: Rthor But is not the penalty kick punishment enough? If you give the card and a penalty it basically ends a game. And there could not have been any additional factors on the Czech red card because it was the weakest foul ever. Czech guys basically hit the bottom of the Ghanian's shoe lightly which probably should not have even caused a fall if the striker had normal balance and will to create a shot rather than fall and rely on ref calling a PK. If I were a striker with this kind of officiating I would not take any shots at all I would just dive all over the place hoping for PK and a red card for the defense whenever somebody touches me because if they call it I just won a game. Regarding the red card: in this case, there are no light or severe fouls anymore. If you take down a player who's only got the keeper left in front of him, you're off. Which is exactly what the ref did in this case. Yes, it was double misfortune that it happened in the penalty box, but still, the ref applied all the rules correctly. So all we can do is discuss those rules. I agree that the Czechs were severly punished for a minor offense, but look at it this way: a goal was prevented from being scored, which can at the same time be viewed as spoiling the game. Which is why FIFA is very tough on these things. In the old days, strikers would be taken down given the chance and if the foul was not too rough, the defender would get away with it with yellow. Now, the table has turned for the strikers, which I find a good thing. Sure, there are some who try "schwalbes", but the Holland - Ivory Coast match showed that refs don't fall for that so easily anymore. Drogba had most "fouls" against him waived away by the ref, and Arjen Robben even got a yellow for acting (when he was in fact fouled and Holland should have been given a penalty)... both these players have a reputation for doing nose dives a bit too eagerly. There will always be examples of where the rules are too harsh for the situation, but the rules are clear now and both the refferees, players and specatators know what to expect. -- Sonnema is recruiting!
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.20 08:56:00 - [45] Originally by: Sharcy There will always be examples of where the rules are too harsh for the situation, but the rules are clear now and both the refferees, players and specatators know what to expect. For this world cup, perhaps. In 8-10 weeks or whatever the teams will go back to club football and the reffing will, for the most part, go back to what each nation is used to. Season after season, UEFA et al give directives and for the first few months of the season, they'll be applied rigidly, then settle down to common sense levels again. The world cup is slightly different in that if the refs want to ever ref a world cup match again, they have to stick to it and the chance for any common sense to be applied doesn't come around because by that time, we have a winner!
Uther Doull	Posted - 2006.06.22 08:58:00 - [46] the refs for holland - ivory coast, and holland - argentina were horrible tbh stopping the game for every little thing, and giving out yellow cards for stuff that really doesn't warrant it the ref in for holland - ivory coast really seemed horribly biased against holland too, it's a wonder we still won tbfh...
Uther Doull	Posted - 2006.06.22 09:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Harris Most of the cards are for the player making a great tackle but the opponant falling over through lack of balance and not necessarily being fouled. Like I said. Does not understand the rules of the game. YOU CANNOT SLIDE IN. It's no longer allowed, and it results in an automatic red card. If you leave your feet, you're leaving the field of play. You might not like it. I might not like it. But since neither you or I are FIFA, our opinions don't mean jack diddly squat. Sliding tackles ARE NOT ALLOWED. that's BS, you can slide tackle as long as you go for the ball and don't slide in from behind, if you do that and hit the ball before the other guy trips over you legs then it's allowed tbh i think the refs should give a lot more cards for schwalbes because that is what is causing all this crap
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.22 17:07:00 - [48] All right players are catching on to new rules. As a result we can look forward to more games such as Ghana-USA with enough falling and rolling and yellow cards to warrant 5 minutes of stoppage time. But no cards for diving. Oh and the penalty kick call was crap too. The worst thing of it all is that it gives US team something else to blame for their failure to back up their pre World Cup delusional talk. I was beginning to think that refs dont give yellow cards as much to "better teams" in "better games" or that maybe there was some change over the last week in officiating guidelines but alas no change and the fans are worse off for that.
Mak'shar Karrde	Posted - 2006.06.23 03:06:00 - [49] I know I was defending the referee in the USA/Italy game... But DAMN some of these refs suck! I expect the odd bad call and can rationalise most of them but some refs are just going out of their way to lose my support... Graham Poll was a complete embarrassment today. You can miss a dive, you can miss a quick elbow to the face but how the hell can you accidently give a guy three yellow cards before sending him off? That's just bad refereeing.
Sharcy	Posted - 2006.06.23 07:42:00 - [50] Originally by: Mak'shar Karrde Graham Poll was a complete embarrassment today. You can miss a dive, you can miss a quick elbow to the face but how the hell can you accidently give a guy three yellow cards before sending him off? That's just bad refereeing. Yeah, that guy was hilarious. What an amature, he SO did his best to ruin the game. Did one of the Croats have to shoot Viduka in the head with a 9mm for him to get a free kick? Still, I'm very happy for Australia and Hiddink that they went through -- Sonnema is recruiting!
PKlavins	Posted - 2006.06.23 08:30:00 - [51] Originally by: Sharcy Originally by: Mak'shar Karrde Graham Poll was a complete embarrassment today. You can miss a dive, you can miss a quick elbow to the face but how the hell can you accidently give a guy three yellow cards before sending him off? That's just bad refereeing. Yeah, that guy was hilarious. What an amature, he SO did his best to ruin the game. Did one of the Croats have to shoot Viduka in the head with a 9mm for him to get a free kick? Still, I'm very happy for Australia and Hiddink that they went through that ref should be ganked. painfully. australia should have won 4-2. that ref missed 2 clear penalties for australia.... I make sigs/banners 5mill each, convo/evemail for details
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.25 20:59:00 - [52] 15 yellows, 4 reds, 7 minutes stoppage time (15%+ of time in a half wasted) Winner: England next match
Stubnitz	Posted - 2006.06.25 21:07:00 - [53] Edited by: Stubnitz on 25/06/2006 21:07:58 Originally by: Rthor Winner: England next match i hope your right. but i think i would rather have seen the ref use the brains he was born with. The ref's performance was Comical
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2006.06.25 21:09:00 - [54] Originally by: Rthor 15 yellows, 4 reds.... ...and it should have been an awful lot more. I count at least three other players who should never have been allowed to finish the game. If once, just once, the referee actually did what he's supposed to do and punish every single case of dissent, timewasting etc. etc. with yellow cards .... then after that team was expelled from the WC for losing so many players a game had to be abandoned, we might actually see players sticking to the rules in future. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.25 22:22:00 - [55] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr ...and it should have been an awful lot more. I count at least three other players who should never have been allowed to finish the game. If once, just once, the referee actually did what he's supposed to do and punish every single case of dissent, timewasting etc. etc. with yellow cards .... then after that team was expelled from the WC for losing so many players a game had to be abandoned, we might actually see players sticking to the rules in future. But I think that there is a paradox here that you dont get. At some point after giving out too many yellow cards or red cards too early in the match or too many altogether a ref CANNOT continue on this pace or else it will look like he gave out too many cards to his superiors. For example at this stage Portugal is kind of screwed for the rest of the World Cup due to the fact that they will have players either suspended or playing soft to avoid suspension. So instead of enforcing the rules with proper yellow cards later in the game a ref can do nothing but talk while everybody is diving (hoping for red cards for opposition) or fouling extra hard (thinking that ref cannot possibly give out any more cards for his own sake). The result is what this game was.
babyblue	Posted - 2006.06.25 22:30:00 - [56] Can someone start a "1 match ban for Figo" thread please?
Murukan	Posted - 2006.06.25 22:48:00 - [57] The refs are the world cup mvp's. No one else has won as many games as they have so far
Scots Crusader	Posted - 2006.06.26 12:44:00 - [58] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Rthor 15 yellows, 4 reds.... ...and it should have been an awful lot more. I count at least three other players who should never have been allowed to finish the game. If once, just once, the referee actually did what he's supposed to do and punish every single case of dissent, timewasting etc. etc. with yellow cards .... then after that team was expelled from the WC for losing so many players a game had to be abandoned, we might actually see players sticking to the rules in future. So you feel that every rule should be enforced to the letter of the law?? This comes from the official FIFA website:- 6. uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures And it's punishment is a red card!!! I counted 7 English players on saturday swearing on camera. With your idea, england are down to 5 players and thrown out of the W/C before the Dutch/Portugal game even kicked off. This shows that there is no way the rules can or should be enforced to the letter of the law. ----------------------------------------------- O wad some power, the giftie gie us, To see oursels as ithers see us!
Spavin ll	Posted - 2006.06.26 13:05:00 - [59] Originally by: Scots Crusader This comes from the official FIFA website:- 6. uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures And it's punishment is a red card!!! I counted 7 English players on saturday swearing on camera. With your idea, england are down to 5 players and thrown out of the W/C before the Dutch/Portugal game even kicked off. This shows that there is no way the rules can or should be enforced to the letter of the law. IMO its the rule that should be enforced to the letter of the law, if it was you wouldnt get players swearing gesturing to officials/other players.
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.26 13:28:00 - [60] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Rthor 15 yellows, 4 reds.... ...and it should have been an awful lot more. I count at least three other players who should never have been allowed to finish the game. If once, just once, the referee actually did what he's supposed to do and punish every single case of dissent, timewasting etc. etc. with yellow cards .... then after that team was expelled from the WC for losing so many players a game had to be abandoned, we might actually see players sticking to the rules in future. But you see, they won't. They'll drop to the floor and feign injury and the refs will ignore that and book the innocent party and then players will be sent off for brushing past, trying to win the ball and otherwise trying to play a game of football which is not non-contact. You're being too idealistic. Common sense must prevail and the if it does on all sides then the game can be played in the spirit in which it was intended. Site the example of the player getting booked for fouling Henry last week when he wasn't anywhere near him. quite literally didnt touch him, but Henry fell as he lost his balance and so the card was given. Happy with that? Last nights game was a case in point in players dropping to the floor at the slightest contact for a free kick. Most of the cards were valid but a good proportion weren't and it ruined the game because the ref had to carry on in the way he started and the players cottoned on to it and started falling like flies. Figo's headbutt... Send him off. But send the guy who fell the the ground 3 seconds after the they touched heads like he'd been injected with horse tranquiliser.
Scots Crusader	Posted - 2006.06.26 14:35:00 - [61] Originally by: Spavin ll Originally by: Scots Crusader This comes from the official FIFA website:- 6. uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures And it's punishment is a red card!!! I counted 7 English players on saturday swearing on camera. With your idea, england are down to 5 players and thrown out of the W/C before the Dutch/Portugal game even kicked off. This shows that there is no way the rules can or should be enforced to the letter of the law. IMO its the rule that should be enforced to the letter of the law, if it was you wouldnt get players swearing gesturing to officials/other players. That is the point, it does not need to be aimed at officials or other players. If you miss a sitter and shout FFS at no one in particular. Letter of the law states you should be sent off. The sending off if for foul/abusive language, not whom it is aimed at. ----------------------------------------------- O wad some power, the giftie gie us, To see oursels as ithers see us!
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.26 14:42:00 - [62] What bugs me is referrees cant change their decisions based on video replays or whatever. I mean, it's quite easy for us to see whats wrong because we see it from 10 different camera positions, at 1/10th the speed. Let the ref see a few replays if in doubt.
Ena'Fi	Posted - 2006.06.26 14:44:00 - [63] Originally by: Scots Crusader Originally by: Spavin ll Originally by: Scots Crusader This comes from the official FIFA website:- 6. uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures And it's punishment is a red card!!! I counted 7 English players on saturday swearing on camera. With your idea, england are down to 5 players and thrown out of the W/C before the Dutch/Portugal game even kicked off. This shows that there is no way the rules can or should be enforced to the letter of the law. IMO its the rule that should be enforced to the letter of the law, if it was you wouldnt get players swearing gesturing to officials/other players. That is the point, it does not need to be aimed at officials or other players. If you miss a sitter and shout FFS at no one in particular. Letter of the law states you should be sent off. The sending off if for foul/abusive language, not whom it is aimed at.
Spavin ll	Posted - 2006.06.26 14:45:00 - [64] Originally by: Ena'Fi Originally by: Scots Crusader Originally by: Spavin ll Originally by: Scots Crusader This comes from the official FIFA website:- 6. uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or gestures And it's punishment is a red card!!! I counted 7 English players on saturday swearing on camera. With your idea, england are down to 5 players and thrown out of the W/C before the Dutch/Portugal game even kicked off. This shows that there is no way the rules can or should be enforced to the letter of the law. IMO its the rule that should be enforced to the letter of the law, if it was you wouldnt get players swearing gesturing to officials/other players. That is the point, it does not need to be aimed at officials or other players. If you miss a sitter and shout FFS at no one in particular. Letter of the law states you should be sent off. The sending off if for foul/abusive language, not whom it is aimed at. Grr stupid alt posts
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.26 14:55:00 - [65] Says it all really doesn't it. Sepp Blatter - head of FIFA, the guys who give direction to the referees, said that the ref in last nights game Holland Vs Portugal should have been given a yellow card for his performance
Luc Boye	Posted - 2006.06.26 15:07:00 - [66] Originally by: Elve Sorrow What bugs me is referrees cant change their decisions based on video replays or whatever. I mean, it's quite easy for us to see whats wrong because we see it from 10 different camera positions, at 1/10th the speed. Let the ref see a few replays if in doubt. yeah, they have that in bunch of other sports, and its working great (basketball for example).
Harris	Posted - 2006.06.26 15:51:00 - [67] Originally by: Luc Boye yeah, they have that in bunch of other sports, and its working great (basketball for example). There are a lot more natural breaks in other games then there are in football, where the game is only supposed to stop for injuries (player is supposed to get off pitch asap) and re-starts after a goal or half time. I know it doesn't work in reality quite like that but that is where the difficulty in introducing it starts. If you could get it working without disrupting the flow of the game then it's feasible. After that it's just a matter of opinion as to whether it's needed.
Kaeten	Posted - 2006.06.26 19:09:00 - [68] Originally by: Elve Sorrow What bugs me is referrees cant change their decisions based on video replays or whatever. I mean, it's quite easy for us to see whats wrong because we see it from 10 different camera positions, at 1/10th the speed. Let the ref see a few replays if in doubt. thats why imo they should get ear peices then get a comfirmation form the box room if it is punishable by a yellow/red card for example. High-Sec Piracy Recruitment
Sarafi	Posted - 2006.06.26 23:52:00 - [69] The replays would be especially useful for when then whistle is blown for something thats happened in the box, either a penalty is given or the player is booked for diving to me this seems the most important use and would wipe out the nasty diving. As for the penalty given for italy - a bit harsh, but the defeneder was bloody silly for going on his arse for the tackle anyway.
F4ze	Posted - 2006.06.27 13:41:00 - [70] Edited by: F4ze on 27/06/2006 13:42:42 funny picture Edit: hotlinking not allowed it seems, you can find the picture here at the bottom: http://www.zattevrienden.be/dag_269
Rthor	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:21:00 - [71] See France-Spain was a good game with good ref.

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