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BTW folks my prediction came true.

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Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.09.27 11:55:00 - [1] I'm not going to harp on tachyons since i've said all i've needed to say.. but I will say this. Apocolypses and even Armageddons, are very much in fashion this fall. I knew that if CCP kept the tachyon on chaos the way it was, everyone would be using it. Now I know tachyons most certainly have their drawbacks, but holy christ, I see people with Scorpions trying to squeeze them on their ships, haha. I'm sorry but when ships with 9,000mw powergrids are trying to put tachyons on their ships, there's a problem here folks. Everyone is scrambling for tachyons and more tachyons! Megabeam/Pulse isn't bad either, infact they're way better than anything on the hybrid/projectile side of the fence.. It's kinda silly.. need to tone down lasers a little here as far as damage.. :) ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
qrac	Posted - 2003.09.27 13:17:00 - [2] 1. they're the best ships when it comes to mining. 2. they're good for dealing dmg with all those turret slots which means they're the best for npc-hunting and good for pvp. i don't think tachyons r the problem here. btw i use tachyons on my scorpion when npc-hunting since it makes it much easier (no ammo).. but when it comes to pvp i would never fit tachyons on it. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
Carbon	Posted - 2003.09.27 13:19:00 - [3] Just because a lot of people are trying to fit them/use them does NOT mean that it's a good idea. Most people think: "More damage = better! KilL!" but do not realize that they have their limitations and drawbacks, just as any weapon should. Once a tachyon gets through your shields it has to deal with your armour.. and there you have the limits of superiority for that weapon.
s0cks	Posted - 2003.09.27 14:38:00 - [4] Jam the tachyon ship with ECM, warp scramble, web, and you win. Or... fit 1 or 2 EM hardners and Thermal hardners and hey presto, that gun isnt so tuff anymore. If EVERYONE is using tachyons then its easy to know wot hardners you're gonna be fitting :) Making your projectiles/hybrids much better.
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2003.09.27 17:41:00 - [5] Edited by: DREAMWORKS on 27/09/2003 17:42:54 Quote: Jam the tachyon ship with ECM, warp scramble, web, and you win. Or... fit 1 or 2 EM hardners and Thermal hardners and hey presto, that gun isnt so tuff anymore. If EVERYONE is using tachyons then its easy to know wot hardners you're gonna be fitting :) Making your projectiles/hybrids much better. Agree, it has become very easy to know what hardener to use in PvP. On my scorp i fit several kind of guns, hybrids for armor, tachyon for shield and launchers + torpedo's for hull and armor. This way i do all damage types. The tachyon is perfect for eating away those shields, but a shield using hardeners and those nice cap eating tachyons mean nothing anymore. - edit - btw tachyons isnt effective for armor and hull. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2003.09.27 20:16:00 - [6] One of the main reasons Tachyons are considered best is because of the way combat ensues in EVE. Make ways for combat to ensue in all distances close - med - long - extreme and things will change. 425mm and 1400mm aren't bad, they both have slightly different roles, they just aren't suited for the way combat is fought in EVE atm. Pain is meant to be felt
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.09.27 20:18:00 - [7] Tachs really hit trouble if the target takes a half second to drop an energized armor mod into the low slot for thermal too. The vulnerability of lasers requires a change in tactics most people shudder at even contemplating: Letting your armor actually do some work. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Rising Sin	Posted - 2003.09.27 22:17:00 - [8] Yeah, gotta agree with Jash - lasers are all hyped, but not that great except for ganking. I still have yet to to lose a ship to someone using tach's and I've fought a buttload. -- "If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right."
Roba	Posted - 2003.09.27 22:28:00 - [9] Ummmm.... 425mm rails are as good as any laser when fitted to a Scorp. Well they have better range. 20% range bonus, 25% from sharpshooter, and another 40% - 60% from tracking comp. All that equals on heck of a long range hitter. Since they have 48km base opt.
Majin Buu	Posted - 2003.09.27 23:45:00 - [10] tachs are rubbish tbh BoB KillBoard
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.09.28 04:53:00 - [11] the good thing about lasers is they have the most range (yes tachyons will do more damage at long range than railguns) and they also happen to do the most damage now of all the turrets.. coupled with their ability to strip shields quickly, lasers ARE easily the best weapons in this game.. are they all hype? yes and no.. any apoc that stumbles across my raven dies, he just does, there's no way for a laser user to really beat my ship.. in bigger fights? laser is king.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
The Wretch	Posted - 2003.09.28 05:04:00 - [12] Edited by: The Wretch on 28/09/2003 05:26:22 [sits back and chuckles at the sheep following the mis-informed tacheon crowd] Blasters blow away the mega pulse. Mega pulse is good for npc hunting - would not touch them for pvp. Fall off sucks horribly on those. The biggest problem for those that use the close range weapons such as hybrid blasters are missle impacts pushing them in the OTHER direction (even with 1-2 ab's on). Those 1400 artillery cannons on a tempest are ruthless imo. I firmly believe the Tempest with projectiles is the best overall pvp winner (dmg, defense, ecm, manuverability). The Apoc/arma are just dmg or tanks - nothing else (the pvp ships for dummies). I use them to npc hunt and thats it. The Wretch Cyberdyne Systems CEO
Darth Maul	Posted - 2003.09.28 06:13:00 - [13] I'm about tired of reading all this Tacheyon propaganda bull**. Tachs, and lasers in general are fine for PvE.. but in PvP its projectiles and missles all the way. With my setup and skills my tachs on an apoc are roughly 6.56 damage mods and a 7.74 rof. An average hit on an npc rat is mid to upper 200ish when at optimum range, lower when closer or farther. 300 hits are quite common, and the best wrecking so far a little over 900. Sounds uber? Well I fought my corpmates Raven, our pertinent skills are very comperable (read very top of the line gunery and supporting skills). He used 1400mm's and cruise missles, I used 4 tachs, 2 heavy mods, and 2 cruise launchers. All he did was turn on a few hardeners and a SB, and kicked my ass from one side of the system to the other. I was landing hits for an average of 80 tops, while he was smoking me for 350+ and in the beginning when I had the cap to turn on tach shields for a few seconds he was landing hits for almost 200. I used that same raven setup on chaos and kicked the out of all the laser users - so I was expecting it. But it just irks the utter hell out of me when people spread all these lies about tacheyons and lasers in general. The people scrambling to mount them for PvP, especially if they dont have an Apoc with at least lvl 3 and tons of cap regen mods and skills are utter fools. If I cant take down hardened shields with 5600 cap at a 240 regen and 80ish modified cap per shot on the tacheyons, I don't see how anyone else can. A laser user doesnt have the cap to fire his weapons and run tac shields and whatever other medium modules he nededs. Its just not there. Sure against unhardened shields lasers do great comparable damage - but since THE damage to harden against is Em and Thermal since those are the naturally lowest resist types.. that advantage is always gone in PvP, and the situation only gets much worse when you get to naturally resistant armor. I had stopped posting on this topic 2 weeks ago when it was becomming clear that the Devs were buying all the bull** the anti-laser crowd was spewing, so I gave up. But all this post is doing is rubbing salt in the wound. Lasers were nerfed overall, and stacked tac shields are still way too effective. Who cares? When I farm rats Ill use my trusty ole Tach Apoc.. when I need to PvP Ill load up the Tempest with projectiles and cruise missles, and when I need a guaranteed win Ill load the EW Scorp. Thats just the way things are now.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.09.28 06:46:00 - [14] I'm not anti-laser at all really, I'm not anti-anything. I'm just pointing something out, lasers are insanely popular, and insanely good right now. They are superior to other turrets. I really don't think the other turrets really can compete with lasers overall at the moment. I haven't used projectiles in a while, I get mixed opinions on them from people. You either love them or you hate them I suppose.. low ROF and low tracking seem to be the major problems here, though with zero energy usage, I guess you can't expect these guns to be THAT great.. that no capacitator usage does allow for a lot energy to be put towards defensive modules ect. Hybrids are truly horrible, they really are. There's just no hybrid turret that fits my style at all. The blasters are very damaging but the range is so short that it's not worth using them.. I find it silly to close in to under 5km when you can do more damage with any laser turret really. Railguns range is nice.. but lasers have better range.. not a better optimal, but their falloff range is much higher, thus they will do more damage than a railgun over distance. Railguns simply can't hit anything past their optimals at all, and their tracking is so **** poor forget about it when anything closes in on you, that and the fact their damage is average at best, they simply aren't that good. It's easy to see why lasers are considered the best turrets.. they're just awesome at almost every range, their tracking is generally better, and they do the most damage. Not having to use ammo is a huge advantage, especially when you look at large turrets, large ammo is very well, large? It's volume is insanely high, it's difficult to carry around much ammo.. my Raven can only carry about 1000 rounds if I wanna carry missles too, that's uh, insanely low, doesn't last long. I do think the current stats on lasers coupled with the fact they don't require ammo, makes them a bit too good. Considering about 85% of the people I see in battles are using lasers, I'd say there is an imbalance there.. lasers ARE good, they're not all hype.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
qrac	Posted - 2003.09.28 09:51:00 - [15] Quote: are they all hype? yes and no.. any apoc that stumbles across my raven dies, he just does, there's no way for a laser user to really beat my ship.. in bigger fights? laser is king.. if we go by your analogy then scorpions and ravens are too good since they can ALWAYS win over apoc's. it's kinda silly... we need to tone down caldari battleships a little. tachyons have a special role and so do caldari ships.. there's no need to nerf either of them. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
djfolw	Posted - 2003.09.28 09:54:00 - [16] Dude you don't know anything raynor i've would use projectiles over those lasers any day of the week just like uhh one of those guys said a tempest will wreck anyone in pvp in a very short amount of time the only way lasers kick is for no ammo. thats about it and large ammo being so big it's not that bad only if you want to hunt npc's. for anything else your not goin to use more then 200-300 rounds in any situation that's not npc. Don't know about hybrids but my corp mates like them on there mega that's for sure. i think it all depends on your ship and skills for how the guns rule or not. The way it should be. and i think ppl should try usin there armour a little more than they do to but hey i don't like gettin down that low either. but you never see anyone try to use there aroumr instead of shields hhmmm like maybe on a apoc or armaggedon. wierd aint it. the aroumor kings tryin to use shields kinda wierd but the way it is. well that's my rant and rave and tach's arnt every where i think after the weps patch ppl have really changed it up in my opinon which means ccp did a good job on the balancin. laterz
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.09.28 10:08:00 - [17] Quote: Dude you don't know anything raynor i've would use projectiles over those lasers any day of the week just like uhh one of those guys said a tempest will wreck anyone in pvp in a very short amount of time the only way lasers kick is for no ammo. thats about it and large ammo being so big it's not that bad only if you want to hunt npc's. for anything else your not goin to use more then 200-300 rounds in any situation that's not npc. Don't know about hybrids but my corp mates like them on there mega that's for sure. i think it all depends on your ship and skills for how the guns rule or not. The way it should be. and i think ppl should try usin there armour a little more than they do to but hey i don't like gettin down that low either. but you never see anyone try to use there aroumr instead of shields hhmmm like maybe on a apoc or armaggedon. wierd aint it. the aroumor kings tryin to use shields kinda wierd but the way it is. well that's my rant and rave and tach's arnt every where i think after the weps patch ppl have really changed it up in my opinon which means ccp did a good job on the balancin. laterz I'm kinda talking lasers in general here actually.. not just the tachyon. Lasers certainly have their drawbacks but no weapon used in ganksquads sends you back to the clone station faster than laser ships right now. Overall, i'd say Lasers > Projectiles > Hybrids.. if the 425mm Railgun was a little better I'd say Hybrid = Projectile in power right now. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:15:00 - [18] How to fix lasers... lower em dmg.... lower dmg mod.. add kin dmg to lasers. Make switching crystals take 10sec.. like ammo. End result= lasers no longer as effective at stripping shields, however gain a bit in armor penetration. Cap would be lowered to compensate for reduced dmg mod. Lasers become more useful against the normal unimaginative em-therm tac combo. Have to add a 3rd dmg type to hybrid as well.. (I really think this woulda been the best way to fix tac shields anyway) Being the guy in the raven doing the test above with maul, I can indeed state that 1400mm rock, even on a raven without proper bonuses. Scary to think of em on a tempest. The cruise missiles didn't hurt either. :) Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:20:00 - [19] Quote: How to fix lasers... lower em dmg.... lower dmg mod.. add kin dmg to lasers. Make switching crystals take 10sec.. like ammo. End result= lasers no longer as effective at stripping shields, however gain a bit in armor penetration. Cap would be lowered to compensate for reduced dmg mod. Lasers become more useful against the normal unimaginative em-therm tac combo. Have to add a 3rd dmg type to hybrid as well.. (I really think this woulda been the best way to fix tac shields anyway) Being the guy in the raven doing the test above with maul, I can indeed state that 1400mm rock, even on a raven without proper bonuses. Scary to think of em on a tempest. The cruise missiles didn't hurt either. :) I think damage types are fine.. really, it doesn't make sense for lasers to do kinetic damage, hate to pull the realism card, but there's nothing kinetic about the hit from a laser beam. I see no reason to change hybrid damage type at all, since thermal/kinetic makes sense. Here's how to fix lasers IMO. Increase the ROF on them a bit.. nerf their tracking a little.. there, uh, that's all that needs to be done. Nothing huge.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
minesweeper	Posted - 2003.09.28 11:39:00 - [20] Actually i'm quite happy with my hybrid guns. Sure they don't do uber damage, but getting a wrecking shot of 480 at 80km with a 425 railgun isn't that bad, or having a couple of neutron blasters and staying close to the enemy isn't bad either. Besides those ships that get hybrid bonuses usually have more medslots too. So they can either use ECM or extra hardeners to improve their shields or reduce the danger from the opponent.
McBlunt	Posted - 2003.09.28 12:04:00 - [21] Thermal-EM damage is just as good for taking down a ship as Thermal-Kinetic. Thermal-Kinetic is "ok" for both shields and armor. Thermal-EM WRECKS shields but isnt very effective on armor, it balances out
Ka'loor	Posted - 2003.09.28 12:19:00 - [22] Pne thing most ppl clearly miss is one sinple thing. Lasers need many cap recharge modules, be it cap batteries, simple cap rechargers or something else, so your stuck mostly with your high base DoT, other turret types can fit a damage mod or two, or as many low slots as there are if they want to and keep firing all day......... Attack without mercy, until blood is gone, until life is gone, until the light is gone, unto the shadow itself. Better to die with honor, than to live in shame.
Solas	Posted - 2003.09.28 16:37:00 - [23] Tacheons are nice but I would not use them IÆm PVP. If you have those bad boys mounted on an Amar ship even you cant fill your slots with decent guns. I like large beams and pulse lasers.
Xelios	Posted - 2003.09.29 02:58:00 - [24] The only problem right now is range. It's exceptionally hard to get into close range especially using a battleship. If the other person doesn't want you close it's fairly easy for them to make sure you don't get anywhere near them. Tachs are nice, but if they're all you're using you're going to lose. They suck against hull and armor, and since most bships have more than twice the amount of hull/armor as they do sheilds this is not a good thing.
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.09.29 09:35:00 - [25] Quote: Tachs really hit trouble if the target takes a half second to drop an energized armor mod into the low slot for thermal too. The vulnerability of lasers requires a change in tactics most people shudder at even contemplating: Letting your armor actually do some work. I agree completely, energized armour can make a huge difference on a battleship - the only drawback being there isn't the equivalent to a shield booster. Still if you have a lot of low slots some energized armour is a very good idea. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.09.29 14:47:00 - [26] Quote: Quote: Tachs really hit trouble if the target takes a half second to drop an energized armor mod into the low slot for thermal too. The vulnerability of lasers requires a change in tactics most people shudder at even contemplating: Letting your armor actually do some work. Armor repairer may not be the equivalent of a shield booster, but they're also sorely underestimated I agree completely, energized armour can make a huge difference on a battleship - the only drawback being there isn't the equivalent to a shield booster. Still if you have a lot of low slots some energized armour is a very good idea. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Dragon Emperor	Posted - 2003.09.29 15:07:00 - [27] Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 29/09/2003 15:09:22 I really hate somebody spread the lie about tachyon or laser in general, If anybody want to fit tachyon on scorpion, he's an idiot. with my amarr bs 4, energy opt/mgt 4, controlled bursts 4, and 1 med, 3 low slot BEST cap modual, I won't fit more than 2 tachyon on my apoc, ok? If I can not take down any bs pilot with other type weapon fitting and a brain, you scorpion users sure CAN NOT either. Tachyon doesn't do more dmg, megathron user with hybrid weapon, tempest user with proj weapon all do better dmg than tachyon user in apoc. Why I ignored caldari bs? because if an caldari bs can do same turret dmg as other bs pilots, this game is unplayable.
Dragon Emperor	Posted - 2003.09.29 15:07:00 - [28] Edited by: Dragon Emperor on 29/09/2003 15:07:30
Kronarty	Posted - 2003.09.29 17:27:00 - [29] Jim, Quit this whiney lobbying against the energy weapons, really, please do, it is no longer funny.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2003.09.30 00:23:00 - [30] Quote: Jim, Quit this whiney lobbying against the energy weapons, really, please do, it is no longer funny. I don't think lasers are too strong.. if they are it's just slightly so. I think stacking damage mods, is the real evil.. combined with the already insanely high damage mod and not so terrible ROF on tachyons, they are pretty imbalanced, to a degree. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE

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