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THX 1138
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Posted - 2006.06.23 11:33:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
why do they "have" to honour it?
Are you serious? Alliances live and die by the conduct of their members. If they can't be taken at their word in something as simple as a ransom, then they lose all credibility for ALL transactions.
Of course there's no rule that they 'have' to honour it. I'm speaking from a moral point of view - I'm sorry if it's lost on you.
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Forgon
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Posted - 2006.06.23 11:36:00 -
[32]
Where were you when you were killed,and most importantly,you were a wartarget,- standing or neutral?
And I dont think they were "pirating" :),because veritas has strong anti-piracy rules in low sec(excluding - standing ppl).If you were in 0.0 you are fair game,anyone can do anything to you,it is not about honor or anything.
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Ayame Mishima
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Posted - 2006.06.23 11:36:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I wish there was some sort of ransom system in place actually. As part of the game. The system would make sure that the victim can warp off if he pays the ransom.
I wouldn't like anything like that. I love the freedom of the game and anything like that cuts down on that freedom. Even if there are those black sheep, what would it be like if they wouldn't exist? If everything runs in perfect rules, where is all the fun of not knowing if it will play out as you have planned it?
We do need scammers, pirates and all sorts of bad folks as much as we need good ones. It's the careful mix of both that makes the game worthwhile.
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Damn cheaters. |
James Snowscoran
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Posted - 2006.06.23 11:39:00 -
[34]
That's weird, I didn't know -V- pilots were even allowed to ransom.
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Terra Sky
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Posted - 2006.06.23 11:40:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Forgon
And I dont think they were "pirating" :),because veritas has strong anti-piracy rules in low sec(excluding - standing ppl).
So frankly, will the killers be punished by VI? Would they ever be punished? I doubt it.
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Forgon
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Posted - 2006.06.23 11:46:00 -
[36]
The parts he didnt include was:
Victim: Iamruss
Alliance:
Corp:
Destroyed: Raven
System: B-VIP9
Security: 0.0
It occured in 0.0 so it is not "pirating".That was my point.And yes -V- pilots do ransom time to time,especially while camping gates.
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Verone
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Posted - 2006.06.23 11:53:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Forgon
If you were in 0.0 you are fair game,anyone can do anything to you,it is not about honor or anything.
Wow, there goes any respect I ever had for Vertias, in fact I'm now ashamed to have one of your member corps in my employment history.
Originally by: Forgon
It occured in 0.0 so it is not "pirating".That was my point.And yes -V- pilots do ransom time to time,especially while camping gates.
So you do ransom? But you kill people after you've ransomed them by the look of it. Bad form. You people are what make pirating difficult for people like me.
Foolish.
VETO RECRUITMENT |
Rashmika Clavain
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Posted - 2006.06.23 11:59:00 -
[38]
Originally by: THX 1138
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
why do they "have" to honour it?
Are you serious? Alliances live and die by the conduct of their members. If they can't be taken at their word in something as simple as a ransom, then they lose all credibility for ALL transactions.
Of course there's no rule that they 'have' to honour it. I'm speaking from a moral point of view - I'm sorry if it's lost on you.
Exactly, there is no rule that they have to honour it. Why are you querying morals in a game for a piracy, which by any standard is immoral?
The point I am making is this, ransoming someone for their ship is immoral... taking the ransom and then killing them is immoral. The two ARE immoral to start with.
I just don't understand why people are getting on their high horses about one form of piracy and not another.
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Qwynn
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:00:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Forgon
The parts he didnt include was:
Victim: Iamruss
Alliance:
Corp:
Destroyed: Raven
System: B-VIP9
Security: 0.0
It occured in 0.0 so it is not "pirating".That was my point.
I think you missed a part as well. Whether be it 0.0 or negative standing, if you do ransom a pilot or the ship, giving the pilot hope of survival, then respect your deal and let the pilot live upon payment. If the intention was to kill, why the ransom? To be honest, this is your best way to destroy your credibility in the public.
Originally by: Forgon
And yes -V- pilots do ransom time to time,especially while camping gates.
Resulting from the previous statement, the ransom is just a donation to the involved -V- pilots, as you will get killed anyway.
"Hey, its not pirating. We just want to cover our ammunition costs."
It would be interesting, if both parties would post the chat logs.
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Isenheart
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:01:00 -
[40]
Is it only me who thinks 10 mill is a little to small ransom for a Raven?
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dralid
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:01:00 -
[41]
1) Ransom is ransom, and if paid should be honored, nomatter where the ransom takes place, empire or 0.0
2) NEVER pay ransom, NEVER!
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All lies! |
Isenheart
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:05:00 -
[42]
Originally by: dralid
1) Ransom is ransom, and if paid should be honored, nomatter where the ransom takes place, empire or 0.0
2) NEVER pay ransom, NEVER!
Dual morality?
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Forgon
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:05:00 -
[43]
No,personally(and mortis generally) I dont ransom ppl because,2 killmails > isk.But some ppl do,some ppl both ransom and kill.It is their choice really (it is a game for gods sake).And I wasnt even online when that thing happened,so I dont really know the story from our side.
All I am saying is keep in mind B-VIP is a 0.0 system,ppl can do mistakes (maybe they WAS lag,who knows),and dont believe everything you read.
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Trevedian
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:08:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Trevedian on 23/06/2006 12:08:11
Originally by: Forgon
The parts he didnt include was:
Victim: Iamruss
Alliance:
Corp:
Destroyed: Raven
System: B-VIP9
Security: 0.0
It occured in 0.0 so it is not "pirating".That was my point.And yes -V- pilots do ransom time to time,especially while camping gates.
Don't call what you do "ransoming" if your not honoring the ransoms...
If some1 in my corp didn't honor a ransom, I would boot them in a second...
Can't you empathize how not honoring a ransom would feel if someone did the same to you after you paid them the requested amount? -V- sucks and should be destroyed if the only person they can get to represent their POV can't grasp what is wrong with not honoring ransoms.
[STORY] I was once lied to about a 1 v 1 when 5 ships jumped in on me... Then I was podded after I paid a ransom... A year later, I saw the guy who podded me in recruitment chat and convinced the idiot to join Kr0m... We prompty gang humped him and podded him after we convinced him to fit faction hardners... Yeah it was low, but not as low as dishonoring 1 v 1's and lying about ransoms. Yeah I know my grudges are a lil extreme, I don't mind dying, but that incident ****ed me off more in EVE than anything else.
Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
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Dinique
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:09:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Dinique on 23/06/2006 12:10:24
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
Originally by: THX 1138
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
why do they "have" to honour it?
Are you serious? Alliances live and die by the conduct of their members. If they can't be taken at their word in something as simple as a ransom, then they lose all credibility for ALL transactions.
Of course there's no rule that they 'have' to honour it. I'm speaking from a moral point of view - I'm sorry if it's lost on you.
Exactly, there is no rule that they have to honour it. Why are you querying morals in a game for a piracy, which by any standard is immoral?
The point I am making is this, ransoming someone for their ship is immoral... taking the ransom and then killing them is immoral. The two ARE immoral to start with.
I just don't understand why people are getting on their high horses about one form of piracy and not another.
You're wrong. Morals are completely subjective.
To a pirate, ransoming someone isn't immoral. To the "Honourable Pirate" type like Verone and co. advocate Ransoming is perfectly moral. Ransoming and then destroying someone after they paid your ransom is Immoral to them.
Obviously in the case of these -V- pirates, neither ransoming or dishounoring a ransom is immoral. Which tells you about what kind of characters they are.
In the case of for instance the average JF member or yourself, both practices are completely immoral. But thats your morals. And everyone's morals are different.
_____
There's so many different worlds
So many different suns
And we have just one world
But we live in different ones
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Rashmika Clavain
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:10:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Forgon
some ppl both ransom and kill.It is their choice really (it is a game for gods sake).
That's how I see it too. They're pirates ffs! 
Gawd I'm even getting the urge to... yaaaaar.
Ahem.
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THX 1138
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:14:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Forgon
it is not about honor or anything.
Thank you for clarifying that.
I endorse what Verone said above.
As to the morals... I can't remember the name of the guy going on about it above, they never said they wouldn't shoot him. It is well know that if you are not 'blue' in 0.0 you get shot. So be it. The moral factor kicked in when they offered ransom. That's where their morals failed.
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Rashmika Clavain
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:14:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Dinique
In the case of for instance the average JF member or yourself, both practices are completely immoral. But thats your morals. And everyone's morals are different.
You can't disagree with that  , but that's kinda been my point too though.
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Rashmika Clavain
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:15:00 -
[49]
maybe they're roleplaying an immoral pirate?
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Dinique
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:17:00 -
[50]
Originally by: THX 1138
Originally by: Forgon
it is not about honor or anything.
Thank you for clarifying that.
I endorse what Verone said above.
As to the morals... I can't remember the name of the guy going on about it above, they never said they wouldn't shoot him. It is well know that if you are not 'blue' in 0.0 you get shot. So be it. The moral factor kicked in when they offered ransom. That's where their morals failed.
err no.
If its not against your morals to shoot someone, its not immoral to you to shoot someone :P
Same thing for ransoming and then shooting the victim anyway.
Just because you are in 0.0 doesn't mean you will be free from judgement by the rest of universe.
_____
There's so many different worlds
So many different suns
And we have just one world
But we live in different ones
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Qwynn
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:22:00 -
[51]
On behalf of -V-, I would love to see the chat logs, as 10 million for a raven is odd.
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dralid
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:23:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Isenheart
Originally by: dralid
1) Ransom is ransom, and if paid should be honored, nomatter where the ransom takes place, empire or 0.0
2) NEVER pay ransom, NEVER!
Dual morality?
Not really no, but I can see why you tend to think so, pirate.
--
All lies! |
Maximillian Pele
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:28:00 -
[53]
You judge a Corporation or Alliance on the basis of what it does.
If you don't keep your word in one situation the chances are you won't in others. Hence Veritas Immortalis cannot be trusted to keep its word in anything.
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Dekiri
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:31:00 -
[54]
I am probably old fashioned but i would never ever pay a ransom nor ask for one! The great thing about pirating is blowing up things and where is the fun with that ransom stuff ?
Pillage and murder yes!
Ask strangers for money no!
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My dad can beat up your dad! |
THX 1138
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:38:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dinique
err no.
If its not against your morals to shoot someone, its not immoral to you to shoot someone :P
Same thing for ransoming and then shooting the victim anyway.
Just because you are in 0.0 doesn't mean you will be free from judgement by the rest of universe.
Of course it's subjective. I got involved in this thread to hear VI's stance - I've got what I came for.
As all-powerful and arrogant as alliances are (I will include D2 in this), they forget that every action taken by, and endorsed by the alliance is in effect an advertisement. I think that Forgon's words above are a disgrace to his alliance. Yes, it's my opinion. Yes, it's subjective.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.06.23 12:56:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Ayame Mishima
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I wish there was some sort of ransom system in place actually. As part of the game. The system would make sure that the victim can warp off if he pays the ransom.
I wouldn't like anything like that. I love the freedom of the game and anything like that cuts down on that freedom. Even if there are those black sheep, what would it be like if they wouldn't exist? If everything runs in perfect rules, where is all the fun of not knowing if it will play out as you have planned it?
We do need scammers, pirates and all sorts of bad folks as much as we need good ones. It's the careful mix of both that makes the game worthwhile.
I agree. Eve just wouldnt be eve without scammers, killers etc. But i think a optional ransom system wouldnt severly hurt this freedom. And the advantage of having a system where the victim gets safe passage if he pays the ransom is more people paying the ransom.
Please comment in the thread i created in General Discussions for commenting on the ransom system idea. I explain the reasoning behind this in that thread. 
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The Eve Wiki Community Portal | Eve Tribune |
Dinique
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:01:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Ayame Mishima
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I wish there was some sort of ransom system in place actually. As part of the game. The system would make sure that the victim can warp off if he pays the ransom.
I wouldn't like anything like that. I love the freedom of the game and anything like that cuts down on that freedom. Even if there are those black sheep, what would it be like if they wouldn't exist? If everything runs in perfect rules, where is all the fun of not knowing if it will play out as you have planned it?
We do need scammers, pirates and all sorts of bad folks as much as we need good ones. It's the careful mix of both that makes the game worthwhile.
I agree. Eve just wouldnt be eve without scammers, killers etc. But i think a optional ransom system wouldnt severly hurt this freedom. And the advantage of having a system where the victim gets safe passage if he pays the ransom is more people paying the ransom.
Please comment in the thread i created in General Discussions for commenting on the ransom system idea. I explain the reasoning behind this in that thread.
A system whereby the ransom transaction is facilitated making it easier to transfer the right amount quickly and easily is a good idea.
A system that guarentees 'honest' piracy isnt. I thought you said the game needs bad guys? You are eliminating one kind of bad guy, in favour of another kind that you like better.
_____
There's so many different worlds
So many different suns
And we have just one world
But we live in different ones
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Logi3
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:06:00 -
[58]
This is very disturbing. Puts a black mark against us who Pirate to the book "Pirating, Do's & Dont's" by Captain Hook.
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SavageJohn
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:11:00 -
[59]
VETO arent honourable in my opinion.
Veto didnt give me an option of ransom when I got jumped by 4 of them in Katagumer complex a few weeks ago... They just went ahead and killed me.. END OF!!!
I lost my raven had a little moan about it and then got a new ship and played the "GAME" some more.
You are now pointing fingers at -V-.. It was 4 members that blew this guys raven up. It was not a -V- "op" so stop *****ing about -V-
Please remember people. EVE is a game at the end of the day.
Just drop it now, its pointless moaning about who was right or wrong.
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Sakura Nihil
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Posted - 2006.06.23 13:18:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 23/06/2006 13:21:24
Originally by: SavageJohn
VETO arent honourable in my opinion.
Veto didnt give me an option of ransom when I got jumped by 4 of them in Katagumer complex a few weeks ago... They just went ahead and killed me.. END OF!!!
I lost my raven had a little moan about it and then got a new ship and played the "GAME" some more.
You are now pointing fingers at -V-.. It was 4 members that blew this guys raven up. It was not a -V- "op" so stop *****ing about -V-
Please remember people. EVE is a game at the end of the day.
Just drop it now, its pointless moaning about who was right or wrong.
There's a difference between blowing someone's ship up and violating a ransom agreement, you know.
It is a game, you're correct, but it is how you play the game that matters. The way your alliancemates acted against him on face value is very dishonorable, though I would like to hear the other side ofc.
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