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Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
824
   |
Posted - 2014.07.02 15:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
An idea I got after reading something and having it appear in a dream I had last night. It's been confirmed that Black Ops are on the short list for rebalancing and changes, so here goes:
Give Black Ops the unique ability to jump between systems without a cyno, by locking on to a star's gravity well- you would land in a totally random position around the star.
This would give black ops a unique role in fleets and give them mobility no battleship has ever had before.
As for the rest of the stats, they wouldn't really have to change much, other than balancing their tank and weapons/bonuses to be more focused and effective.
Of course, the Jovians would have thought one step ahead and made it so that we can't jump to their systems (but if they didn'tt then woohoo, Jove space  )
Tell me what you think- I would love a unique ability like this for this (admittedly quite awesome) ship class.
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest;
A City made of Stone is built in the mountains;
But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Saelem Black
Savage Knights
7
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Its been suggested before, many many times.
Personally, I would love it, but it steps on the toes of hot droppers or others who use the cyno as a way to land reinforcements in the middle of the battle.
I kind of think the whole mechanic of cynos is greedy business practice, actually. CCP forces higher level players to pay for two accounts instead of one, and for that reason alone, this will never happen. How many players have cyno alts, I wonder. When I flew blackops, I certainly did.
Alternative suggestions are; being able to lock onto covert capable fleet members and jump to their position (without them having to light a cyno) or only requiring the cyno for bridging, not jumping. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
824
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Saelem Black wrote:or only requiring the cyno for bridging, not jumping.
That's actually what I was going for here- I should edit the OP to show that- it would give the individual ship enormous mobility, but bridging would still need a cyno to lock on to.
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest;
A City made of Stone is built in the mountains;
But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
Ixtab.
1600
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
I suggested this after reading The Lost Fleet to 
+1 |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1135
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
At that point, requiring a cyno to bridge is redundant as you could just jump another BLOP and light a cyno ????? |
Bohneik Itohn
Amarrian Salvage Gnomes and Associates
441
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:At that point, requiring a cyno to bridge is redundant as you could just jump another BLOP and light a cyno ?????
I've seen plenty of fleets with 30-50 Black ops ships, I'm pretty sure one of them can fit a cyno. Meanwhile, 30-50 black ops ships have just arrived with no warning.
Correction: The 30-50 black ops ships WERE the warning.
Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya
Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1136
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 16:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:At that point, requiring a cyno to bridge is redundant as you could just jump another BLOP and light a cyno ????? I've seen plenty of fleets with 30-50 Black ops ships, I'm pretty sure one of them can fit a cyno. Meanwhile, 30-50 black ops ships have just arrived with no warning. Correction: The 30-50 black ops ships WERE the warning.
You land at a random point so you still have to find your target before bad/good things start to happen.
Session change > load grid > find target in system > align > warp > land > lock > shoot/point.
People currently getting caught will still get caught. People not getting caught will even less because they will see a much more massive spike in system telling hem it's hot-drop-o'clock and they should GTFO. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
Ixtab.
1600
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
So what's your point? Are you for it or against it?
It wouldn't change anything other than making blackops a better ship.
Sadly it isn't going to happen anyway as it would probably involve too much work for CCP.
+1 |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1136
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:So what's your point? Are you for it or against it?
It wouldn't change anything other than making blackops a better ship.
Sadly it isn't going to happen anyway as it would probably involve too much work for CCP.
I'm against because it's a change that bring nothing new. You made bridging still require a cyno but that's only an illusion of not being able to bridge wherever you want because you were to need a BLOP on the other system anyway to bridge the gang back home so he can bling jump, light his own cyno and you the bridge the fleet without having to slow boat a cyno to that system. It's basicly a **** ton of code to save people the hassle of having a cyno alt slowboating around. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
828
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Well I wouldn't say it wouldn't bring anything new- it'd open up a whole new slew of possibilities for Black Ops pilots to do a lot more than they could before, and make them have a totally unique role in the ship lineup.
They could jump in at a totally random position on their own, but couldn't bridge in the rest of a fleet to an accurate position without using a cyno in the system first- that wouldn't really open any OP playstyles up at all.
All it'd do would be to make the Black Ops ships a desirable class and the most mobile battleship.
Oh, and if it wasn't restricted, this could mean that they'd be able to do this in high-sec, too- no cynos or bridging, but star-hopping (to coin a phrase) would let the ships jump around in a very useful way.
Also... I have no knowledge of whether or not you actually do know code for EVE, but I'd trust CCP's judgement first on what it'd take to make this possible.
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest;
A City made of Stone is built in the mountains;
But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
Ixtab.
1601
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
As it is, no ship can jump without a cyno (not counting pos mod) so it would in fact "add something new".
Heaven forbid people could play this game without requiring an alt. 
+1 |
Bohneik Itohn
Amarrian Salvage Gnomes and Associates
445
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 17:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yeah, don't get me wrong I love the idea of solo players being able to do all sorts of new things with black ops ships. This is right up my alley. I just thought it would cause some big problems with usual sov life. However consensus from sov residents seems to disagree so I'll concede to their experience.
Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!-á - Freyya
Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help. |
Fer'isam K'ahn
None Of One
181
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 18:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sov ? Isn't that the stagnate broken feature everyone is unhappy with ? Wouldn't want any suggestion being tainted by considering that.
That said, I'd love Black Ops to be the only jump ship in the game, it might break something, it might not, I ll love to see that, even only if some High Secers think its safe now to jump to low and lose an arm, a leg and the rest trying tot run that level 3 distribution mission to low-¦-¦
+1 for the balls to suggest and implement it ,)
Are you sure your issues aren't elsewhere ?! |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
112
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 19:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ignoring the merits of the idea for a moment: CCP has stated on several occasions (and implemented changes accordingly) that they don't like the idea of players being easily able to create safe spots that aren't in scan range of a celestial object. Letting a BlOps do what you propose in a system of sufficient size would do exactly that. On this alone, I doubt CCP would ever implement it.
That aside, I think this idea also presents some interesting gameplay possibilities, along with nuanced balance issues. With this change in effect, it would be trivial for a properly-equipped BlOps fleet to form a covert jump portal chain of arbitrary length. Say you have N BlOps, all equipped with covert cynos and covert jump portals. N-1 BlOps jump into the first system. N-2 BlOps jump into the second, and so on. Each BlOps (except the first) would end up in totally random (and thus reasonably safe) positions in the systems along the route. Each one bridges the covert fleet to the next BlOps until said fleet hits their destination. This would allow users to set up a temporary (maybe even quasi-permanent if the bridge ships are judiciously logged off and/or cloaked when not in use) covert jump bridge network that could run from hisec to anywhere in losec or nullsec without ever using a single stargate.
This would represent pretty much the ultimate form of power projection, and interestingly enough, it would be of most benefit to smaller corps/alliances that don't hold sov and don't have access to an established network of jump bridges.
Could this be the great power projection equalizer? Maybe. It could also be horribly broken. Who knows.
Reading Comprehension: a skill so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
829
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 19:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:Ignoring the merits of the idea for a moment: CCP has stated on several occasions (and implemented changes accordingly) that they don't like the idea of players being easily able to create safe spots that aren't in scan range of a celestial object. Letting a BlOps do what you propose in a system of sufficient size would do exactly that. On this alone, I doubt CCP would ever implement it.
I see what you're saying- but I just wanted to respond to the first part by saying this is nothing like the deep space safes there used to be- those were literally waaaaaay out of the system- now the outer limits of any system is 10AU beyond the orbit of the furthest celestial (planet, stargate, et cetera), beyond which you can't make bookmarks or warp to.
This would simply put the ship in a random position around the system's star, making it well within scan range and not giving deep space safe areas.
Also, I think the idea of a covert chain caravan would be amazing for smaller entities- it'd allow small corps and alliances to navigate usefully, and make travelling through low and null easier, possibly resulting in more emergent gameplay.
After all, the only star-hopping ship class would be Black Ops, at least with this suggestion 
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest;
A City made of Stone is built in the mountains;
But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Tikitina
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
136
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 19:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:As it is, no ship can jump without a cyno (not counting pos mod) so it would in fact "add something new". Heaven forbid people could play this game without requiring an alt.
I think that would go against the current business model for this game.
The easiest way to keep increasing subscriptions is to get those already interested(sub'd) to buy more accounts.
|
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
575
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 19:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
T2 Hulls aren't PvP friendly due to the insurance system. We will never see a fleet of 250 Black Ops Battleships on a grid when losing even 2% of the fleet will cost more than wiping an entire enemy fleet.
There will always be that one time someone used a T2 Hull based fleet to do something for shizzles but the rest of the time, T1 hulls were used.
If they revamp the POS to have 2, 4 or 6 docking points and they allow the POS to have limited use of the ships docked, I can see a huge demand for Black Ops. Imagine a POS with a Black Ops docked at it, being allowed to bridge covert as a result. Even if the docking ring was outside the bubble like jump bridge networks, I suspect you would see a lot more demand for them. |
IceAero
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
22
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 19:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
I think this is a pretty awesome idea.
BlackOps obviously need love, and something 'new' is best.
Jumping into any system within range and landing within 5AU of the star would be a very interesting change the game dynamics.
+1
Balance proposals:
-- Link this ability with a high-slot module. Passive, or active. (I'm thinking in the 100-200m price range.)
-- Give up a 10 second warp-up timer for 'celestial coordination.'
-- Give it a 30-60 second cool-down timer. (If you land in a hostile system, you shouldn't be able to just jump right out to your next waypoint--you need time to be scanned down)
-- Increased fuel cost.. |
Alternative Splicing
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
73
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 20:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
Idea is good so long as there are measures put in place to avoid having them become too useful for transport or traveling.
It always struck me as strange that there was so little actual espionage you could do with black ops ships. It would be interesting if they could either disable POS defenses, or prevent a POS/structure from sending a notification to its owners when it was under attack or reinforced. That would make them useful and create content. Imagine if the owners of POS empires actually had to pay attention, and didn't have perfect guidance for when and where to send the fleet? It would actually be black ops rather than just hotdrop light. Let them be the tools such that a smaller group can really harass a larger group.
Another idea would be to give black ops a cyno which could pose as another person's cyno so long as they are in the same system. Fits thematically, and would be unique and no doubt generate lots of content.
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Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
831
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 20:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
IceAero wrote:I think this is a pretty awesome idea.
BlackOps obviously need love, and something 'new' is best.
Jumping into any system within range and landing within 5AU of the star would be a very interesting change to their usefulness.
+1
Balance proposals:
-- Link this ability with an (expensive) active high-slot module which:
1) Can only be activated uncloaked
2) Drops your velocity to 0
3) Has a 5-10 second activation delay after decloaking
4) a 30-60 second cool-down after jumping, during which time you cannot cloak or jump again.
5) Increased fuel costs for the jump
More balance: If you fit this module on a ship, then you Cannot fit a cyno at all. This prevents any changes to existing cyno mechanics.
I like this a lot- it'd be like a Black Ops equivalent of the Bastion Module Marauders got.
I actually feel you may have imposed a little too many limitations though- maybe it could narrow down to:
'Cannot Warp/Jump for a set time after Jumping' timer, say 60 seconds (30 seconds at BLOPS V)
'Cannot activate Cynosural Field Generator/Covert Cynosural Field Generator while module is online' restriction
Maybe some other things as well.
I'm so glad to see positive feedback
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest;
A City made of Stone is built in the mountains;
But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
IceAero
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
25
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 20:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:I like this a lot- it'd be like a Black Ops equivalent of the Bastion Module Marauders got. I actually feel you may have imposed a little too many limitations though- maybe it could narrow down to: 'Cannot Warp/Jump for a set time after Jumping' timer, say 60 seconds (30 seconds at BLOPS V) 'Cannot activate Cynosural Field Generator/Covert Cynosural Field Generator while module is online' restriction Maybe some other things as well. I'm so glad to see positive feedback
I like your idea with the reduction and the activate with cyno online. I also think I agree that you should be stuck at 0 velocity after jumping in for a time period, i'm just not sure how long.
More thoughts:
1) Require Astrometrics V and BlackOps V for the mod.
2) Activation delay starts at 10 seconds and gets a 10% reduction per level with "Astrometric Acquisition." I just don't think you should be able to uncloak and jump INSTANTLY. There needs to be a delay.
3) Cool down starts at 60 seconds with a 10% reduction per level with "Astrometric Rangefinding"
With max skills, a forced delay of 30 seconds sitting in space uncloaked seems...fair?. I don't do any scanning, so I don't know what is reasonable, but I think it's only fair that you have to sit there long enough to be scanned down and warped to, but only just. Key thing to remember is that the fleet is completely spread out, so the best a scanner will get is one target. And there needs to be some risk involved with jumping into an unscouted system.
[A more simple skill-implementation would just involved BlackOps V for the mod, and Astrometrics skill affects the cool down (with a forced activation delay).] |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
831
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 21:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Yeah, if this is a mod, it needs some requirements- the Bastion Module has a set of requirements separate from the ships' requirements, I'd see this one having something along the same lines.
Quote:3) Activation delay starts at 10 seconds and gets a 10% reduction per level with "Astrometric Acquisition." I just don't think you should be able to uncloak and jump INSTANTLY. There needs to be a delay.
I do agree with this one- it would make sense- you'd have to be uncloaked for a small window before you Jumped.
Quote:The one thing I'm not sure about is post jumping, whether or not you should be allowed to warp. With max skills, a forced delay of 30 seconds sitting in space seems brutal. You'll definitely be scanned down in that time because everyone knows you'll be by the star.
I wouldn't say they couldn't cloak- plus, you could land cloaked, too, I suppose
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest;
A City made of Stone is built in the mountains;
But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
IceAero
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
25
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 21:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:Yeah, if this is a mod, it needs some requirements- the Bastion Module has a set of requirements separate from the ships' requirements, I'd see this one having something along the same lines. Quote:The one thing I'm not sure about is post jumping, whether or not you should be allowed to warp. With max skills, a forced delay of 30 seconds sitting in space seems brutal. You'll definitely be scanned down in that time because everyone knows you'll be by the star. I wouldn't say they couldn't cloak- plus, you could land cloaked, too, I suppose
I re thought this and I think that this mod CANNOT be used for risk-free jumping into a system. Being forced to sit in space for 30 (20?) seconds, uncloaked, at zero velocity, seems like a good trade. It's not as if when local goes up someone will instantly think "Oh, I better go scan down the star to see if someone jumped in." And, if they do, they have a very small window to get a fix on you and warp to you for a tackle. And a fleet is protected anyway because even being scanned down will locate only 1 ship. If the fleet wants a fight, then they should save their buddy. |
Rendiff
Funk Soul Brothers
Northern Associates.
78
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 21:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
I like it. Saves you from having to have some random cyno alt scout the system. |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
832
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 21:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
IceAero wrote:
I re thought this and I think that this mod CANNOT be used for risk-free jumping into a system. Being forced to sit in space for 30 (20?) seconds, uncloaked, at zero velocity, seems like a good trade. It's not as if when local goes up someone will instantly think "Oh, I better go scan down the star to see if someone jumped in." And, if they do, they have a very small window to get a fix on you and warp to you for a tackle. And a fleet is protected anyway because even being scanned down will locate only 1 ship. If the fleet wants a fight, then they should save their buddy.
Well if that's the case, I think 30 seconds would work as a base timer, if it can't cloak in that window- it's simple enough to scan down a battleship-sized signature in well under 30 seconds.
Maybe a related skill reduces it by 13.333... (13 and 1/3) % per level, so it'd be down to 10 seconds at V.
Either that, or have it be the 60 second start, reduced to 30 at skill level V, but be able to cloak. After all, sitting still for any amount of time is a big drawback- and if someone sees a black ops on d-scan before it cloaks, they'll know for sure that it's around the sun somewhere and be able to prepare for it once it decloaks, if they're that dedicated (after all, it can't covops cloak).
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest;
A City made of Stone is built in the mountains;
But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
Ixtab.
1607
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 23:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Not being able to move for 30 seconds would suck. Wouldn't it be better if you spawned within 100km of the sun and couldn't cloak for 30 after a sun jump?
I think that would be a bit more fair as interceptors would have a good chance to catch you and an arazu camping the sun would always be able to lock and point you.
+1 |
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Umbrarum Paradisi
832
|
Posted - 2014.07.02 23:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Well a sun jump wouldn't put you in some predetermined place around the star- it'd be a totally random spot within a certain distance of it- not on a specific grid, at least the way I imagined it.
Also, the immobilization could work as a balance factor- I mean, it needs a drawback, and that works decently (IMO)- after all, it can still cloak itself, it just can't warp off immediately after sun jumping. It's a minor inconvenience, but it works.
I mean, it'd kind of defeat the purpose of being 'covert' if it could just be found that easily after it sun jumps.
But again, thanks for good input- I have to think about some of these things more
"A City made of Wood is built in the forest;
A City made of Stone is built in the mountains;
But a City made of Dreams....is built in heaven."
-Jovian Proverb-á |
Raw Matters
NORDIC COMPANY
Northern Associates.
41
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 09:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
I totally like the idea of jumping without having to have a secondary char, but I think it would be much more consistent with the way things are now if you'd arrive at the gate of a system instead.
If there is any defense fleet, it will most likely be at a gate, waiting for intruders. If you could now just Black-Op-Hop around it, that would severely reduce the effectiveness of gate camps. If the BO however would appear at that gate, defenders could take it out right away. I would even go that far and have the server plot a route to the target system and select the gate you would appear when flying there by warp. Or weight the chances to appear at a gate in a way, that the amount of ships at a gate increase the chance for you to appear at that (camped) gate.
Then the old risk vs reward would be still intact. Risk: you might end up in a gate camp. Reward: you can jump around freely at any time. |
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
237
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 09:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
Very good idea. I'd suggest giving this ability to all jump-capable ships and removing cynos from the game altogether but that's been requested before and I won't get my hopes up.
X |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
Ixtab.
1609
|
Posted - 2014.07.03 10:14:00 -
[30] - Quote
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:Well a sun jump wouldn't put you in some predetermined place around the star- it'd be a totally random spot within a certain distance of it- not on a specific grid, at least the way I imagined it.
Also, the immobilization could work as a balance factor- I mean, it needs a drawback, and that works decently (IMO)- after all, it can still cloak itself, it just can't warp off immediately after sun jumping. It's a minor inconvenience, but it works.
I mean, it'd kind of defeat the purpose of being 'covert' if it could just be found that easily after it sun jumps.
I think that is where the cyno comes in. You can use an alt to create a safe and then light a cyno for your Black ops or you can risk jumping blindly to the sun where someone could be waiting.
+1 |
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