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Aadahn
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Posted - 2006.06.25 22:27:00 -
[1]
I have no objection to others being able to use probes to find where a mission deadspace is, and to then warp in to engage the mission runner in combat. I do however have a minor complaint about what happened yesterday.
I was basically sitting on the accelleration gate to the next stage when someone warped in and scrambled me. Admittedly I wasn't really paying as much attention as I should have been.. until I activated the gate and nothing happened. (infiltrated outposts for any that wondered what mission)
I just don't feel that scrambling a ship should have an effect on a warp that is performed by something *external* to that ship. Consider that the acceleration gates are rather massive, are purpose built for nothing but sending things into warp, surely they would be rather difficult to disrupt. Now if perhaps there were a purpose built module that only worked with gates it would make sense (say scramble vs gate of 30 or so?) but this simply did not make a great deal of sense.
Before the flames (which I'm sure will come): I don't mind the loss of the ship and mods (though it was a rather hefty chunk of change to go poof). I don't object to others being able to invade a mission deadspace pocket (though when I consider that I can't warp directly to it myself it is actually odd.... eh no matter). I only object to the mechanics of blocking an externally initiated warp.
psst... wanna buy a hamster? |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.25 22:28:00 -
[2]
It disrupts warps. Thats why its called a warp disruptor.
Theres a warp, it gets disrupted. Nuff said 
You can make up some sci-fi RP bollix to justify it if it makes you feel better, but in Eve, balance > sense 
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Aadahn
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Posted - 2006.06.25 22:39:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: HippoKing
It disrupts warps. Thats why its called a warp disruptor.
Theres a warp, it gets disrupted. Nuff said
You can make up some sci-fi RP bollix to justify it if it makes you feel better, but in Eve, balance > sense
Don't really think it's an rp matter to want a little logic. If there is some here I missed it.... mind I miss a lot of things, but I don't think this was one of them.
...and yes, I'm aware it's a game and that balance is necessary.. it's my opinion that this is not balanced. Others may disagree but without better reasoning it's not going to sway my view.
psst... wanna buy a hamster? |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.06.25 22:43:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/06/2006 22:44:36
The gates between pockets use your ships warp engine to take you there, so if you are warp scrambled, it wont.
Sounds logical, right?
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The Eve Wiki Community Portal | Eve Tribune |
Seidr
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Posted - 2006.06.25 22:45:00 -
[5]
Think of your ship as a sphere, and the warp funnel as..well, a tube in space linking one place to another. A warp scram will stop a ship entering warp by stopping it from entering that tube, like if you were to put a rod through the sphere, stopping it from entering the tube. The acceleration gate might be providing the thrust, but if the ship can't enter the warp tube to start with it may aswell be pushing against dead space. Just my 2isk.
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Frakri Hogsto
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Posted - 2006.06.25 22:47:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Frakri Hogsto on 25/06/2006 22:47:21
because TomB said so
ps. how much for the hamster?
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What you gonna do, when I come for yoU?!
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.06.25 22:54:00 -
[7]
Originally by: HippoKing
It disrupts warps. Thats why its called a warp disruptor.
Theres a warp, it gets disrupted. Nuff said
But it's not being activated on the gate ...
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"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.25 22:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: HippoKing
It disrupts warps. Thats why its called a warp disruptor.
Theres a warp, it gets disrupted. Nuff said
But it's not being activated on the gate ...
Nor is the warp. Look for the gate moving
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Tsanse Kinske
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Posted - 2006.06.26 00:27:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 26/06/2006 00:27:29
Personally, I think the OP has a point and it would make more sense if scrambling didn't have any effect on acceleration gates. Consider the explanation from the Player's Guide:
Quote:
There are certain areas scattered around space that are unsuitable for warping into due to a natural phenomena. These areas have been known for some time and were early on dubbed "deadspace." It is only recently that the strategic usefulness of these special areas has been discovered. Someone got the bright idea that instead of warping or jumping into deadspace, one might be able to use the ancient acceleration gates (the precursors to modern gates) that simply catapult vessels, much like a slingshot, through space.
But I don't think there's a balance issue either.
Mostly I'm just glad to know how it works, as I've been wondering this very thing.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Dinique
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Posted - 2006.06.26 00:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: HippoKing
It disrupts warps. Thats why its called a warp disruptor.
Theres a warp, it gets disrupted. Nuff said
But it's not being activated on the gate ...
Nor is the warp. Look for the gate moving
No, your warp core engine thingy (the thing that scramblers scramble) cannot work in deadspace. So the acceleration gate does it for you. Hence scrambling the ship won't affect the gate from working, since the gate is essentially flinging you.
_____
There's so many different worlds
So many different suns
And we have just one world
But we live in different ones
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.06.26 01:02:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dinique
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: HippoKing
It disrupts warps. Thats why its called a warp disruptor.
Theres a warp, it gets disrupted. Nuff said
But it's not being activated on the gate ...
Nor is the warp. Look for the gate moving
No, your warp core engine thingy (the thing that scramblers scramble) cannot work in deadspace. So the acceleration gate does it for you. Hence scrambling the ship won't affect the gate from working, since the gate is essentially flinging you.
Incorrect. Your ship cannot set a destination in deadspace. Which is why you can warp out of a deadspace, but not into it. An acceleration gate gives your ship a target to warp to in an area you cannot normally warp to.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Tassill
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Posted - 2006.06.26 01:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Dinique
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: HippoKing
It disrupts warps. Thats why its called a warp disruptor.
Theres a warp, it gets disrupted. Nuff said
But it's not being activated on the gate ...
Nor is the warp. Look for the gate moving
No, your warp core engine thingy (the thing that scramblers scramble) cannot work in deadspace. So the acceleration gate does it for you. Hence scrambling the ship won't affect the gate from working, since the gate is essentially flinging you.
Incorrect. Your ship cannot set a destination in deadspace. Which is why you can warp out of a deadspace, but not into it. An acceleration gate gives your ship a target to warp to in an area you cannot normally warp to.
And that explains why MWD's dont work in a deadspace pocket...... how ?
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Valea Silpha
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Posted - 2006.06.26 02:26:00 -
[13]
Because it can't set the destination.
Microwarp drive works by flinging you into warp momentarily, but that warp has to be directed at something very close by.
<Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing
<Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head |
Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.06.26 03:29:00 -
[14]
an accel gate only uses warp drive because it was easier to program. based on lore it could warp a ship without a drive because its more of a giant liner accelerator.
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MrBadidea
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Posted - 2006.06.26 04:10:00 -
[15]
I'm sure that the RP behind the Acceleration Gates isn't that they actually put you into warp, but are massive slingshot devices that are used to accelerate a ship to very high speeds over a short distance, seeing as any form of warp technology won't work in there.
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.06.26 05:39:00 -
[16]
The acceleration gate isn't grabbing you and firing you like a giant crossbow, its powering you and helping your ship WARP into the deadspace pocket.
You're still warping, so there's no reason you should be able to use an accel gate when scrambled.
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.06.26 08:14:00 -
[17]
The deadspace gates do not use your warp drive, as that would defeat the purpose.
Even if you assume for a minute that they do, scramblers stop ships from locking onto their destination by fiddling with their oh-so-fickle youcanonlywarpwhereccpwantyoutowarp-core. Deadspace does this anyway, hence the gates, so warp scramblers should not have an effect on the use of gates.
As for MWDs in deadspace, they are just glorified afterburners, they aren't even close to the scale of actual warp drives, and should not be affected by deadspace.
Again, even if you assume that they are in fact full warp drives, the inability to set a destination in deadspace will not affect them, as they do not need a destination.
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Throwing ships away doing stupid things since April '06 |
spurious signal
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Posted - 2006.06.26 09:14:00 -
[18]
Warp drives and acceleration gates don't make your ship move at all. Rather, they make the entire rest of the universe move backwards very quickly.
Warp disruptors work by holding the universe still and therefore work on both warp-drive warp and acceleration gate effects.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.06.26 09:22:00 -
[19]
Originally by: spurious signal
Warp drives and acceleration gates don't make your ship move at all. Rather, they make the entire rest of the universe move backwards very quickly.
Warp disruptors work by holding the universe still and therefore work on both warp-drive warp and acceleration gate effects.
I concur with this idea.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.06.26 09:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Valea Silpha
Because it can't set the destination.
Microwarp drive works by flinging you into warp momentarily, but that warp has to be directed at something very close by.
That would explain why you can't simply MWD towards a random direction in space, by double-clicking in that direction. It would also explain why your MWD does not work while you're warp scrambled.
Oh no, wait ....
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"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Olixia Castitatis
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Posted - 2006.06.26 10:09:00 -
[21]
I would imagine that, when an acceleration gate is activated, your ship is still providing something to stop you being ripped to shreds by the G forces from acceleration. Perhaps your warp drives provide this, and if these systems are distrupted, you can't warp because there is no anti Gforce bubble around you.
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<Sig goes here> |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.06.26 10:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Olixia Castitatis
I would imagine that, when an acceleration gate is activated, your ship is still providing something to stop you being ripped to shreds by the G forces from acceleration. Perhaps your warp drives provide this, and if these systems are distrupted, you can't warp because there is no anti Gforce bubble around you.
Since acceleration gates work even on ships that don't have warp drives, and were in use before warp drives were invented, that's not going to fly either.
You're not going to find a rational explanation for it. You're just going to have to go with "because CCP want it to work that way." Or if they don't, to try and get it changed. 
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"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.06.26 10:59:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Olixia Castitatis
I would imagine that, when an acceleration gate is activated, your ship is still providing something to stop you being ripped to shreds by the G forces from acceleration.
That would be the hull and the inertial dampeners. Moving on......
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Throwing ships away doing stupid things since April '06 |
migaaresno
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Posted - 2006.06.26 11:19:00 -
[24]
Looking for a RP point thise whole system of not being able to use acceleration gates while scrambled is all wrong. they SHOULD be able to use them.
First, warp scramblers only disrupt the target navigation computer for warp drive as you see in the description : "Disrupts the target ship's navigation computer which prevents it from warping" The warp disruptor has nothing to do whit the warp engine or disrupting the warp bubble. it only disrupts the computer to lock on a warpeble object.
The Acceleration gate is indeed hurling the ship away in a distant part of the same solar system. "The most successful attempt was that of the old Minmatar Empire, which built acceleration gates that employed gravity in an unique way to slingshot ships between planets. This gave the ships enough momentum to fly between planets in a much shorter time than before". thise was before the warp drive was invented (also called the jump drive in the sientific stories). so the acceleration gate and warp drive function seperatly.
The fact they can use the acceleration gate before the warp drive indicate the massive G-forces was substaineble whitout the help of the warp bubble. Simply the ship hull was strong enough i presume.
The reason why MWD's dont work in death space is a bit unclear. the way they work is entirely diferance then the "normal" warp drive. they dont need to lock on a object and fly mutch mutch mutch slower while draining mutch mutch and mutch more energy. I wish there would be a other sientific atricle about micro warp drives.
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Blue Dice
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Posted - 2006.06.26 11:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: spurious signal
Warp drives and acceleration gates don't make your ship move at all. Rather, they make the entire rest of the universe move backwards very quickly.
Warp disruptors work by holding the universe still and therefore work on both warp-drive warp and acceleration gate effects.
There is a little but significant flaw in this logic:
If they would "hold the Universe" why can then ships in the are that are not targeted with scramblers move?
I think that the post above mine is quite accuratly representing how Acceleration gates are intended to work in EVE
_________________________________________
Commander! We are surrounded! - Great, so we can shoot into any direction!
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Star Crush
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Posted - 2006.06.26 11:44:00 -
[26]
Originally by: migaaresno
Looking for a RP point thise whole system of not being able to use acceleration gates while scrambled is all wrong. they SHOULD be able to use them.
First, warp scramblers only disrupt the target navigation computer for warp drive as you see in the description : "Disrupts the target ship's navigation computer which prevents it from warping" The warp disruptor has nothing to do whit the warp engine or disrupting the warp bubble. it only disrupts the computer to lock on a warpeble object.
The Acceleration gate is indeed hurling the ship away in a distant part of the same solar system. "The most successful attempt was that of the old Minmatar Empire, which built acceleration gates that employed gravity in an unique way to slingshot ships between planets. This gave the ships enough momentum to fly between planets in a much shorter time than before". thise was before the warp drive was invented (also called the jump drive in the sientific stories). so the acceleration gate and warp drive function seperatly.
The fact they can use the acceleration gate before the warp drive indicate the massive G-forces was substaineble whitout the help of the warp bubble. Simply the ship hull was strong enough i presume.
The reason why MWD's dont work in death space is a bit unclear. the way they work is entirely diferance then the "normal" warp drive. they dont need to lock on a object and fly mutch mutch mutch slower while draining mutch mutch and mutch more energy. I wish there would be a other sientific atricle about micro warp drives.
Well said, also can someone tell me the difference between a Acc gate and a stargate as you can still use a stargate while disrupted thnx.
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migaaresno
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Posted - 2006.06.26 12:01:00 -
[27]
Edited by: migaaresno on 26/06/2006 12:06:08
Quote:
Well said, also can someone tell me the difference between a Acc gate and a stargate as you can still use a stargate while disrupted thnx.
Sure, simple explaination: Acceleration gate hurl the ship and jump gates make some kind of tunnel whit a boson sphere and wormholes.
Long explaination about jump gates : here
the Acceleration gate and Jump gate have nothing to do whit the Warp drive. So you should use both while being scrambled.
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i'Pod
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Posted - 2006.06.26 12:13:00 -
[28]
Do the ships that can fly inside a planet (when not in warp - takes a while to get near enough) and over each other with no collision make sense?
If there was a bunch of good quality and remotely believable technobabble explaining these things, I'd have no issue.
But as it is...
Just drink the Kool Aid. (I don't know what they call it in Iceland)
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spurious signal
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Posted - 2006.06.26 13:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Blue Dice
There is a little but significant flaw in this logic:
If they would "hold the Universe" why can then ships in the are that are not targeted with scramblers move?
I think that the post above mine is quite accuratly representing how Acceleration gates are intended to work in EVE
Logic? Who brought that dirty word into this?!
Truth is beauty, beauty is truth, humour pwns all.....
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Lurtz
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Posted - 2006.06.26 13:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: HippoKing
It disrupts warps. Thats why its called a warp disruptor.
Theres a warp, it gets disrupted. Nuff said
You can make up some sci-fi RP bollix to justify it if it makes you feel better, but in Eve, balance > sense
but in storyline acceleration gates use a different tech (not warp) because warp doesn't work in DS areas. It is essentially putting your ship in a giant railgun
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Lady Fallon
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Posted - 2006.06.26 13:28:00 -
[31]
Stargates are a man made wormhole that is allways open and allways locked onto its counterpart in another solar system. however lore indicates sometimes this lockon drifts as one could infer from the perelles incident in the chronicles.
basicly EVE stargates work very much like the ones in SG-1 except they allow 2way travel without having to dial out for each trip.
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Kurren
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Posted - 2006.06.26 16:35:00 -
[32]
Originally by: HippoKing
It disrupts warps. Thats why its called a warp disruptor.
Theres a warp, it gets disrupted. Nuff said
You can make up some sci-fi RP bollix to justify it if it makes you feel better, but in Eve, balance > sense
Well, you can't use MicroWarps in dead space. You can't warp to something that is 200km+ away. The story behind the mission gates is that they throw your ship... not warp your ship. I agree with the guy. It makes no real sense to me either. If "all" warping is nul when in deadspace, there should be consistancy.
The WDis. could keep the guy from leaving the mission, but it shouldn't be able to stop him from being thrown somewhere by something that does not include a warp drive of any kind... as far as story goes.
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SobaKai.com
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.26 16:38:00 -
[33]
Is everyone reading my comment or just quoting it?
The whole point is that you can make up any RP bull faeces to justify either side, but as far as eve balance is concerned, warp disruptors disrupt warps. All warps.
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Eyari
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Posted - 2006.06.26 17:50:00 -
[34]
Yes, I've read your post...but it's invoking the "Because I said so" card of poor game mastering / dungeon mastering / game development. In other words, not particularly edifying, rather arbitrary, and while correct on a technicality, you don't address the real point, which revolves around the key word "should" or "ought".
Acceleration gates probably only "warp" you because it was a copy/paste of the code to trigger warping to that for acceleration gate behaviour.
Otherwise, they'd have to create a "Slingshot Active" voice recording, etc.
The lore clearly states that it is not a warp. So, those supporting the "scramble at acceleration gates" have to state either:
1. Lore is wrong and should be changed.
2. Acceleration gate activation should not be subject to scrambling.
Saying that the present situation is "consistent" is wrong. There isn't a question of balance here. Change the lore or change the mechanics.
And while I'm at it, I haven't seen anyone from the "scramble at acceleration gate" camp defend the notion that MWD's are prohibited from deadspace due to the anti-warp effects there (either from targeting or activation, your choice...they both fail), but that warp core scramblers do not affect MWD's. Very nice catch of a "technicality"...
Personally I don't care as I don't have a horse in this race (I got all I need out of it, which is to confirm a hunch that it would block a warp, so I know how to prepare), but this is a blatant inconsistency, and the OP et al have a point. It even seems to me that the OP isn't actually whining, but wants a clarification.
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Rosenkranz
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Posted - 2006.06.26 19:07:00 -
[35]
The problem I see here is that CCP's storeline is inconsistant with the current game mechanics.
According to deadspace lore, someone should not be able to warp into the deadspace of someones missions. They should end up at the first acceleration gate like everybody else. Since they don't it's a break in the storyline and either the mechanic should be fixed or the lore should be correct to reflect what actualy happens.
Same goes for the acceleration gates themselves. Since they have nothing to do with warping as far as the storyline goes, then warp disruptors shouldn't stop you from using the gate. Since it does because of the game mechanic, it's a break in the storyline and should be fixed one way or the other.
Really, I wouldn't care which way it got fixed. But consistancy between game mechanics and storyline is kind of important to imersion(sp). I wonder if the Dev's might have an opinion one way or the other on this?
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"Its never just a game when you're winning." - George Carlin |
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