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Bloggers #13, TomB's System Scanning

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)

kieron	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:09:00 - [1] Time to quash some rumors, System Scanning, Probes and the related skills are geting some love on the Path to Kali. How much love, you ask? Easier scanning, a better interface, more equipment and a new skill or three are just some of the revisions planned for the System Scanning revamp. So, here you go, Diary entry of the monstrously bad-looking developer pt. II. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:10:00 - [2] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 27/06/2006 18:11:17 Oh yes, easy scanning is ftw. However, seeing a fix to probes being used to make '100% safe' safespots would be interesting, since atm, a person with some time could make a spot much further away from any object than they'd need to be.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:10:00 - [3] really looking forward to this! __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Jester03	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:11:00 - [4] Sweetness !
Bazman	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:17:00 - [5] yessssss /me strokes my covert ops character with all its uber covert skills already trained ----- Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a Gallente whiner.
Glassback	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:18:00 - [6] How about special scanner ships? G. I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about
Avernus	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:21:00 - [7] /emote shivers.... This looks so cool Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Avernus	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:22:00 - [8] Originally by: Glassback How about special scanner ships? G. ^^ What he said... beef up our coverts for scanning, put the ship bonuses in those areas where we'll get some use from them. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
BlackHole Bob	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:22:00 - [9] TomB thanx, this is a devblog well worth reading... this is what I have been waiting for in EvE along with kali... Kali is so going to rock EvE's world!! Blackhole Bob CEO: R-U-OK Corporation In Game Player Guide
Mikal Drey	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:28:00 - [10] hey hey, V nice, i like the 3d Approach, Is that a system View or a map view ? looks like the eve map. specific scan probes, how much impact does this have on the current skills. Probes gonna be a build item or npc as they are now. TII probes :/ might open up more debate about TII BPO etc . . Probe BPO from NPC might be better. Still looking good though :)
Helison	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:28:00 - [11] Edited by: Helison on 27/06/2006 18:29:18 Looks great! Let¦s hope that it also work this way! And what is very important: Probes have to scan in a full sphere and not just in a plane! BTW: Best Blog since start of the Band of Bloggers
Cherybol	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:39:00 - [12] Its great that we get all these blogs now. It keeps me entertained while at work. :) Keep it going! And thank god scanning is getting revamped, as when a hostile jumps into my system im in. By the time i get an accurate idea of where hes at. Hes already moved to another safe spot.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:41:00 - [13] So basicly safespotting remains the Uber and anyone who has managed to create an off grid safespot 10 warps out from any point of the system is sill impossible to find and kill? Great, I really would have hoped that this rework would recognize the fact that it's not right that only specialized ships with probes have a chance of finding safespots that anyone with half a brain can create with any ship in basicly no time whatsoever. Oh well, guess we just can't rely on CCP to get rid of the lame little ways to make combat into a 3-4 hour hide and seek and then your opponent simply loggs off when he sees something on the scanner within less then 1 AU.
Flyyn	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:41:00 - [14] What about scan prob BPO's? I have failed to find a one for sale anywhere on the market. This is as bad as it can get, but don't bet on it.
Angry Sheep	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:47:00 - [15] Brilliant - I have personally moaned to my friends about this for years and even once moaned on the forums, where I was flamed for ænot using it properlyÆ. The current system is good because you know not every one is using it, the new system is awesome and will open up eve star systemsà Well done CCP It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
Two step	Posted - 2006.06.27 18:49:00 - [16] Will the new skills effect moon scanning probes as well?
Sgt Blade	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:00:00 - [17] ahhh cool stuff
Varis	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:01:00 - [18] oooh This looks nice! Need to finish off training so i can fit the launcher and all the other nice goodies!
Avernus	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Noriath ... Great, I really would have hoped that this rework would recognize the fact that it's not right that only specialized ships with probes have a chance of finding safespots that anyone with half a brain can create with any ship in basicly no time whatsoever. ... I know a guy who can bust safespots using the directional scanner in the space of around 10 minutes... basically a master of the art using the most basic of tools available to him. It's not just a matter of training skills, it's an actual skill that he's developed over the course of time (nod to Cyther) Now ability like that is rare; yet you expect to be able to do something like that in any ship, where everyone else who doesn't have the abilities Cyther has, have instead invested considerable time training in-game skills. Would you like anything else while you're on your free ride? Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
iqplayer	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:16:00 - [20] My one concern here, is POS's and the ability to log off at them. I think it's rather silly that while you're logged in at a POS, you're quite safe, but when you log off, you're ship flies out of the shields and sits in space for either 1 minute (combat timer has expired) or 15 minutes (if you forgot). There's also an issue with fighters that I'm working to document and bug report, where if you assign fighters to someone to NPC with, the carrier gets flagged for combat. Wouldn't it make far more sense for ships at a POS to stay within the shields until they disappeared??
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:17:00 - [21] oh my ******* god I have dreamed of that screenshot ever since I gave up trying to learn the current probe system TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Agillious	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:18:00 - [22] I for one have never mastered the current scanner setup. I have been told that you can use it locate people in system, but I haven't seen a tutorial anywhere for it. I welcome any changes to the scanner in Eve, and strongly encourage the Devs to support the scanner with a custom ship type... mebbe enhance one of the two types of covert ships to have sensor or scanning boosts?
Noriath	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Avernus I know a guy who can bust safespots using the directional scanner in the space of around 10 minutes... basically a master of the art using the most basic of tools available to him. It's not just a matter of training skills, it's an actual skill that he's developed over the course of time (nod to Cyther) Now ability like that is rare; yet you expect to be able to do something like that in any ship, where everyone else who doesn't have the abilities Cyther has, have instead invested considerable time training in-game skills. Let's see him bust an off grid safespot, or catch someone who is at a safespot and MWDing towards something at 3000m¦ while prealignet to warp as soon as anyone shows up, or someone who has a dozen safespots and simply moves between them every 5 minuites... In fact, once you have created 3-4 safespots that are far enough apart you can create hundreds more just using your original safespots as warp locations...
Scrappinak	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:34:00 - [24] Hurray to the death of the enigmatic pizza slice!
Sensor Error	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:38:00 - [25] I....... Just....... Came..... ...... Twice...... RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!! ------------------------------------------ Dev Responses to common questions
F'nog	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:48:00 - [26] If we use more than one probe at a time, does that increase our chances of success and accuracy? Originally by: Panzer Goddess I podded wrangler, and all I got was this lousy forumban.
Avernus	Posted - 2006.06.27 19:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Noriath Originally by: Avernus I know a guy who can bust safespots using the directional scanner in the space of around 10 minutes... basically a master of the art using the most basic of tools available to him. It's not just a matter of training skills, it's an actual skill that he's developed over the course of time (nod to Cyther) Now ability like that is rare; yet you expect to be able to do something like that in any ship, where everyone else who doesn't have the abilities Cyther has, have instead invested considerable time training in-game skills. Let's see him bust an off grid safespot, or catch someone who is at a safespot and MWDing towards something at 3000m¦ while prealignet to warp as soon as anyone shows up, or someone who has a dozen safespots and simply moves between them every 5 minuites... In fact, once you have created 3-4 safespots that are far enough apart you can create hundreds more just using your original safespots as warp locations... Your initial criticism was centered on the ability to make a quick easy ss, and not being able to counter that... the guy I described can counter that, everybody else trains for it. Making a deep safe isn't quick. Guys with their speed up can get busted; guys using several ss can get busted. The guys that are popping up new ss as they go and being highly active in their evasion techniques, probably don't even deserve to get caught, because they are putting in the effort to evade you properly. It's not always about finding them at their ss, so much as occasionally creating the right conditions for them to come to you. If all this angst is for the benefit of two interceptors who harrass your haulers, or a small strike group, try getting creative and finding ways to make them engage rather than fruitlessly wasting the time of your corpmates and allies hunting them. If it's an entire fleet you can't get to come out and play..... who the hell are you fighting? Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:03:00 - [28] OMG new scanning screen creams self
Mistrall	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:04:00 - [29] Actually, Apart from the new skills I see nothing really exciting or new. Strength and inacuracy of probes is already an inbuilt feature, reasons why a diverse signal strength is returned after each analysis. Maybe TomB wants to finally document the theory or the maths with Kali but I see no change in the wording of the paragraphs on how probes work. Using additional 'faster' probes maybe an addition but, as another player mentioned above, three safespots and a fast Inty will never get caught with his trousers down even if you inbuild the ability to warp directly to the target using your scanner. Using a 'ship class' analysis may also be inapropriate. I can immagine an unskilled prober dropping probes in a system whith a hostile pos and abandoned ships...how would you separate the ones inside the force field from the others?...then he would have the problem of separating the good (his gang or fleet) from the bad..I can see more endless threads that probes are bugged and dont work and is a waste of skills. Additionally, Recon ships and the separation from their smaller counterparts (cov-ops ships) would require a very careful look into. At the moment the role of a recon pilot is preferably performed by an alt, using a dispensible ship. I would be inclined to turn down an order to take a peep over the gate in 0.0 using a Rook worth nearly 100 mil plus fittings. But then again everyone knows that a Rook pawns and wants to train for one..it outclasses in EW...erm..Recon? To remain on the Caldari race to which I am more aquainted to, a Rook or a Falcon would never outclass a Buzzard in Recon missions as the latter is more agile, can probe scan in much less time, is way much faster in warp (faster than all interceptors) and also much cheaper. Mistrall

TomB	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:08:00 - [30] Originally by: F'nog If we use more than one probe at a time, does that increase our chances of success and accuracy? Now there's something I forgot to mention; Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses Inaccuracy is stacked as well with even freakier results, "stacking" a probe with high inaccruacy and another one with low inaccuracy won't give the same results as if the low inaccuracy would have given you .

Rel Zi	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:09:00 - [31] Originally by: Avernus Originally by: Noriath Originally by: Avernus I know a guy who can bust safespots using the directional scanner in the space of around 10 minutes... basically a master of the art using the most basic of tools available to him. It's not just a matter of training skills, it's an actual skill that he's developed over the course of time (nod to Cyther) Now ability like that is rare; yet you expect to be able to do something like that in any ship, where everyone else who doesn't have the abilities Cyther has, have instead invested considerable time training in-game skills. Let's see him bust an off grid safespot, or catch someone who is at a safespot and MWDing towards something at 3000m¦ while prealignet to warp as soon as anyone shows up, or someone who has a dozen safespots and simply moves between them every 5 minuites... In fact, once you have created 3-4 safespots that are far enough apart you can create hundreds more just using your original safespots as warp locations... Your initial criticism was centered on the ability to make a quick easy ss, and not being able to counter that... the guy I described can counter that, everybody else trains for it. Making a deep safe isn't quick. Guys with their speed up can get busted; guys using several ss can get busted. The guys that are popping up new ss as they go and being highly active in their evasion techniques, probably don't even deserve to get caught, because they are putting in the effort to evade you properly. It's not always about finding them at their ss, so much as occasionally creating the right conditions for them to come to you. If all this angst is for the benefit of two interceptors who harrass your haulers, or a small strike group, try getting creative and finding ways to make them engage rather than fruitlessly wasting the time of your corpmates and allies hunting them. If it's an entire fleet you can't get to come out and play..... who the hell are you fighting? And to nitpick! "...is at a safespot and MWDing towards something at 3000m¦ while prealignet to warp..." You don't measure speed in m¦. That's for volume. And yes, I think it's dead funny. And yes, it made me feel better about myself to point this out to you and others.

TomB	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:10:00 - [32] Originally by: Noriath So basicly safespotting remains the Uber and anyone who has managed to create an off grid safespot 10 warps out from any point of the system is sill impossible to find and kill? There will be a probe with almost unlimited range, it's not the best but it will be able to find ships that have gone to far into space. And it will be able to work alone, like all probes will. .

Avernus	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:19:00 - [33] Originally by: TomB Originally by: F'nog If we use more than one probe at a time, does that increase our chances of success and accuracy? Now there's something I forgot to mention; Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses Inaccuracy is stacked as well with even freakier results, "stacking" a probe with high inaccruacy and another one with low inaccuracy won't give the same results as if the low inaccuracy would have given you Very cool I know in your blog you specifically mention Recons... but are the original covert ops frigs going to be compatible with these new recon probe launchers and any other various upgrades? Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:27:00 - [34] Originally by: TomB Now there's something I forgot to mention; Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses Inaccuracy is stacked as well with even freakier results, "stacking" a probe with high inaccruacy and another one with low inaccuracy won't give the same results as if the low inaccuracy would have given you So you're saying that you only get the good stacking when an object is within the radius of 2 (or more) probes that have been launched by different people? i.e. team scanning? --
The Enslaver	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:30:00 - [35] Absolutely incredible! That image is amazing! I love this. --------
G Dabak	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:35:00 - [36] Make the scan results show up on the seamless map in some way that lets you identify which is which, and you'll have a winner.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:42:00 - [37] Edited by: Sarmaul on 27/06/2006 20:43:43 Originally by: TomB [list=1] Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses How can probes stack together when finding a single target if they can't overlap? Edit: Also, any chance of a space sonar so we know roughly what direction to start probing in, or will the virtually unlimited range probe act as that? TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Avernus	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:42:00 - [38] Slightly off topic, but when zoomed out like that, please show gang members in system, enemies in visual range of gang members, etc... 'warp to member at 15km' option as well perhaps; being able to use the zoom out as a tactical layout would rock Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Sovy Kurosei	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:46:00 - [39] Originally by: Sarmaul How can probes stack together when finding a single target if they can't overlap? The probes scan radius can overlap, but the probes itself cannot be in the scan radius of the other probe. ___________________
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:48:00 - [40] Im liking this actually - most focus has been on combat - these new exploration (finding hidden loot etc) im assuming it will get its own little scan field to scan for. Good all round as for finding cloaked ships mmm not sure on that they are invisible for a reason. But then again.
Scorpyn	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:49:00 - [41] Edited by: Scorpyn on 27/06/2006 20:50:08 Seems like the universe will start to feel a lot bigger with Kali. It will be interesting. Any plans for utilizing the space between solar systems some time in the (very) distant future?
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:50:00 - [42] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Sarmaul How can probes stack together when finding a single target if they can't overlap? The probes scan radius can overlap, but the probes itself cannot be in the scan radius of the other probe. thanks TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:50:00 - [43] i am looking forward to this, actually for me this is kali's #1 <3 feature Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:50:00 - [44] Well, I hope that this new system will make busting safespots a lot easier and faster. Currently it is really not a lot of fun to hunt someone because if they know what they are doing it is next to impossible to catch them. I am glad this is getting reworked, but at the same time I am somewhat sceptical of the entire system in its very basics. I still think it's not fair that making safespots is something anyone in any ship can do, but finding them on the other hand is a very specialized job. The entire safespot system allows single ships to occupy whole gangs for hours at a time without firing a single shot and just makes being on the defense extremly frustrating. Enemies can come in, safespot and lock down operations for hours purely by being there. Once they see probes on the scanner then simply log off most of the time. It just heavily favours the hunted over the hunter, and there has to be a point where when you get a whole gang trying to finding a single intruder eluding a vastly superior force in their own system should not be so easy. There is just no good way to stop people from going into your core systems in small fasts ships and leading you on a wild goose chase for several hours only to log off when you almost have them. Well anyways, if I still have your attention TomB, I would like to throw a sugestion out there, being that in systems where you have sovreignty you can install some kind of deep space listing post at a POS that acts as an extremly powerful long range probe for everyone who has access to the station. Throw the defense a bone here, I mean it's one thing if you can play hide and seek in an unoccupied system, but if the system is yours it really shouldn't be so easy for an enemy to operate in it without having sufficient forces to slug it out with the defenders.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.06.27 20:58:00 - [45] I cant express enough how happy this feature makes me. Im looking forward to this more than anything else in Kali 1. Finding people have always been a real hassle in Eve, and making it easier is just fantastic for everyone who likes pvp. Best addition ever to this amazing game. God damn it... just...fantastic. With seemless map and improved scanning, this game will be dangerously addictive to play. --- The Eve Wiki Community Portal \| Eve Tribune
R3dSh1ft	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:09:00 - [46] I would also like to know about the possibility of scanning for a cloaked ship ______________________________________

TomB	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:15:00 - [47] Originally by: R3dSh1ft I would also like to know about the possibility of scanning for a cloaked ship Cloaked ships will be scanable, but they won't get uncloaked if they are found on the scanner. .

Avernus	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:17:00 - [48] Edited by: Avernus on 27/06/2006 21:24:58 Edited by: Avernus on 27/06/2006 21:22:11 Originally by: Noriath Throw the defense a bone here, I mean it's one thing if you can play hide and seek in an unoccupied system, but if the system is yours it really shouldn't be so easy for an enemy to operate in it without having sufficient forces to slug it out with the defenders. That would actually be very cool. It would give a rather tangible bonus to defending fleets within a heavily POS'd system (which would likely signify a vital system for the defenders). Edit: meant to state that the above would refer to a POS module that would extend the benefits of probes for ships... could have different sizes of the 'scanner' that would be nearly equivilant to various ranges and strengths for the coming probes. Ex: Small scanner on a pos could have the similar range and ability of a 3AU Snoop. Edit again: Just occured to me that the above could result in the various overlapping bonuses that TomB was mentioning by having different corps in possesion of the POS's within the alliance... sovereignty bonus sort of stuff. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
R3dSh1ft	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:22:00 - [49] Originally by: TomB Originally by: R3dSh1ft I would also like to know about the possibility of scanning for a cloaked ship Cloaked ships will be scanable, but they won't get uncloaked if they are found on the scanner. yay \o/ sounds good :) i got a reply from a dev, w00 ______________________________________
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:25:00 - [50] Will these new Probes be able to find off-plane safes? The ones made with the current Deepspace that just send you 100 AU straight up and such?
R3dSh1ft	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Will these new Probes be able to find off-plane safes? The ones made with the current Deepspace that just send you 100 AU straight up and such? Linkage ______________________________________
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:29:00 - [52] Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 27/06/2006 21:31:30 Originally by: R3dSh1ft Originally by: Elve Sorrow Will these new Probes be able to find off-plane safes? The ones made with the current Deepspace that just send you 100 AU straight up and such? Linkage [...]That have gone too far into space[...] says exactly nothing about my question. The current Deepspace Observer Probes can find them too - as long as you're on the same plane. I want to know if these can find off-plane safespots too. Essentially, if this works in true 3D or not.
R3dSh1ft	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:33:00 - [53] Edited by: R3dSh1ft on 27/06/2006 21:33:39 The scan probes will have spherical range not pizza style like now ______________________________________
Redd Sectoray	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:35:00 - [54] One word: awesome!
Avernus	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:42:00 - [55] Elve, looking at the screenshot provided, I'm thinking that even the deepest ss on a vertical plane isn't going to be untouchable with these upgrades to scanning that are in the pipeline. Just from the description given, sounds like there will be a probe available that has near unlimited range... while that would get you into the general area I doubt it would come close to putting you on top of someone 680AU straight up from the sun, but close enough to drop a Snoop and zero yourself in quite quickly. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Monica Foulkes	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:51:00 - [56] Does that screenshot mean that all backdrops from Kali and onwards will be the exisiting stars in the EvE galaxy plus a transparent cloud and not just some "suitable" texture image? The 8h skill buffer \| Insta BM Fix
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Will these new Probes be able to find off-plane safes? The ones made with the current Deepspace that just send you 100 AU straight up and such? Looking at the screenshot, the probes are full 3D spheres and not thin cylinders so hopefully they will be able to. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Crobain Stalker	Posted - 2006.06.27 21:57:00 - [58] Can you PLEASE improve the UI for scanniing asteroids for their ore <3 At the moment its impossible to tell which asteroid has which amout of ore, except by untergetting ecerything and then retargeting via the scanner interface, which really blows.
Steppa	Posted - 2006.06.27 22:12:00 - [59] For the love of all that's holy... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give us the ability to "tune out" our gang-members' ships and ADD PILOT NAMES TO THE RESULTS. What possible use is the ship name in this case?
Acerus Malum	Posted - 2006.06.27 22:56:00 - [60] For future dev blogs, please continue to include Icelandic colloquialisms for our own cultural illumination. Thanks.
Cpt Ghost	Posted - 2006.06.27 22:57:00 - [61] Ohhhh, im so gonna train for probeusage now! I really like the info _______________________________________________ Danish Freedom Fighters Vi s°ger nye members ;) Join 'dfreedom' ingame.
Niomi Kunst	Posted - 2006.06.27 22:59:00 - [62] What about working in a scanning system that interacts with sovereignty. You could deploy "Scan Modules" at POS's if you have system sovereignty that would allow the same scanning system that probes give you but to anyone in the corporation/alliance. Even requiring the same skills that probes currently need would be wonderful.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.06.27 23:00:00 - [63] Sounds nifty
Matthew	Posted - 2006.06.27 23:01:00 - [64] Originally by: Scorpyn Any plans for utilizing the space between solar systems some time in the (very) distant future? I can't see that happening, for the simple reason that the space between solar systems simply doesn't exist within the server structure. Eve is really a collection of 5000+ tiny pockets of isolated space, the only connection being gates to teleport you between them, and certain shared services. The best approximation they could really get is to create pockets of extra-solar space. But those would essentially behave like the current solar systems, they'd just have no stars/planets etc, and would have some other in-game excuse for teleporting in and out of them. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
xplosiv	Posted - 2006.06.27 23:32:00 - [65] congratulations you have just made gank culture and the superblob and pos wars dominate the universe. yes system scanning sux's atm, but im starting to wonder if all the dev's are not actualy in super alliances(bob, cough). why do i say that? becuase atm super alliances run 0.0 there are 2 ways to combat them, blob to blob them or gurrila raid them. in case 1 this is mainly between 2 super alliances they aare contesting a system gaianst 1 another and they need to go to safe for 5min. what do they do? war to the combat operations pos their alliance like any good 1 would have set up in the system. in case 2 you have a 10man corp maybe vs a 300man active player allaince. they have taken you little area of 0.0 and you want to fight back. you can't put a pos up cus they will come bash it the same nighr and you can't meat them on open battle. so what do you do? you pt a carrier at a safe and run ops with cruiser frig and hac's with fighter for backup you can stop them using the system as a industrial basis for npc/mining cus your carrier is off scan probe angle. well welcome to kali. no more of that it's unfair on the alliance who want the space but cba to keep a combat gang capable of containing the smaller hostile ships at a moments notice. like i said scan probing was naff but this will make 0.0 boring for all but BOB, i mean alliances
Gierling	Posted - 2006.06.27 23:52:00 - [66] Defense does need a bone here, Tomb how about a POS module that interferes with scanning in about a million km radius. Either hiding items in that radius (by lowering thier signatures massively) or giving false positives to the pos. Click Me And Me
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.06.28 00:07:00 - [67] Originally by: Gierling Defense does need a bone here, Why? The current system dosn't do it, and this system is going to make using cloaked ships even more important for scouting as you have no idea otuside scanner range if a target's parked at a POS, frex.
Demangel	Posted - 2006.06.28 00:18:00 - [68] Edited by: Demangel on 28/06/2006 00:19:41 To me this "exploration" issue/feature was one of the things I always wanted in EVE, and while I'm happy for any and all improvements to it... I have major issues with the current methodology. 1: To me it seems silly that our ships do not have the ability to perform fairly effective scans without modules or probe ammo. IMHO Every ship should have a built in scanning system which is better or worse dpending on the nature of the ship. some ships should have shorter range scanning capabilities, while others should have longer. If an object is within this "scanning" sphere, the "little" battle happens, and you can warp to whatever it is you find. The scanning feature should be "useful" to ALL players regardless of race ship choice, or fitting. I put useful in qoutes as a reminder that useful doesn't mean perfect or uber... 2: Not sure if this was ever changed, but last I cared to look, probes are all missile users toys... Sucks to be a non cloaker gallente lover then eh? 3: Probes and or special modules should INCREASE effectiveness of this feature, NOT enable it. For example probes should simply allow you to more easily scan places that arn't close to you. They should not be a requirement to scan effectively. the better the probe, the better it scans, the more specific the probe, the more specific the thing it can detect. Scanning modules should increase your ability to detect hard to detect things, and increase your scanning range. 4: Skills should be in place for people to not only allow the use of the stuff mentioned in point 3, but also to increase the effectiveness of the basic scanner in point 1. To be blunt, I see this more as just another module we're supposed to go wow over, one I won't get to use much because I don't care to bother with scan probes. Being able to explore a system, be it for PVP or other purposes should be the right of every player, and every ship... Not a special ability only gained by those with missile slots they don't mind sacrificing for scouting abilities. Modules and probes again should improve your ability to do what should naturaly be possible for all starships. As a compromise I suggest reducing the effective scanning range of a ship to something much smaller, and have it be based on the ships design philosophy. The vexor is meant to be a space exploration vessel, as is the navitas... But the tristan is a warship, as is the Thorax. The tristan and thorax might have to put up with a crummy 1-2 AU max range scan sphere... While the Navitas and Vexor might enjoy a 2-3 AU scan sphere by default. Then introduce a skill which boosts your scan range, and resolution and increment it by % like all other skills do... To make true scout ships (cloakers etc) still important, make them the end all be all of scouting, with the longest scan ranges, fastest scan times, and most effective resolutions, then enable them (as they are now) to use advanced scanning tools (probes, and possibly other modules) even more effectively. TBH though any improvement on exploration and scanning is a long overdue gift from above. But I would like one that empowers everyone, not just those who feel like shedding spare SP's into it. If it empowers everyone at a basic level equally, it's far easier to balance. Anyway seriously, consider what I said, please. I weep at the thought of what a good exploration system could do for the tactical side of EVE, and the adventure aspect of EVE! Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
fairimear	Posted - 2006.06.28 00:40:00 - [69] i think fair is fair and cloaks need to be totaly unerfed now. balance must be maintaine dbetween the blobers and the anarchists. to much protection for alliance that can't defened there space so don't deserve it.
Mistrall	Posted - 2006.06.28 00:41:00 - [70] TomB, Probe strength stacks with other probes if an object is located in both probe radiuses Inaccuracy is stacked as well with even freakier results, "stacking" a probe with high inaccruacy and another one with low inaccuracy won't give the same results as if the low inaccuracy would have given you I seem to already obtain the above features There will be a probe with almost unlimited range, it's not the best but it will be able to find ships that have gone to far into space. And it will be able to work alone, like all probes will. How will it differ from the current Observator Deep Space one? Mny thks Mistrall
Roue	Posted - 2006.06.28 01:13:00 - [71] WOAH! In one fell swoop so much became awesome and then it was half ruined. Everything in the blog is great but the following. CLOAKED SHIPS WILL BE SCANNABLE, IT WON'T UNCLOAK THEM BUT IT WILL BE SCANNABLE. If that means that you can use the scanner to scan for cloaked ships, and even if that includes probes I still think that is crazy. Basically the standard operations in any fleet now will be to set scanner to 150km and any cloaked ship signal a warp out. Forever eliminating any possibilithy for warp in tactics. Making covertops now lose half of their use in the game. I'm sorry but that singular feature there is not a good idea. There is no reason why cloakable ships should be scannable and I'll explain why. Covert ops ships it's half of their use. The other being probing and that will arguably be better done with recon cruisers leaving them as the faster cloaked solution for setting warp in points. Beyond that using a cloaking device on any other ship is a valid tactic for avoiding being scanned. It's fair and balanced because not only do you lose a hi slot but you also take a 50% reduction to your locking type penalty. Which is severe enough as is. I see no reason why cloakable ships should be scannable at all. Make the ability to find those who wish to accept the risk of being found easy, fast. This new system looks great. But if someone takes the penalty of losing a slot and that drastic of a hit to locking speed then they should be able to sit still in a location moving at a crawl and cloak. If you saw where they went you will find them. Anyone willing to take an entire gank fleet and fit them with cloaks is also willing to realize a gank fleek going up against them could just snipe with 2x the locking speed. Fair enough to me
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.06.28 01:45:00 - [72] Originally by: TomB Originally by: Noriath So basicly safespotting remains the Uber and anyone who has managed to create an off grid safespot 10 warps out from any point of the system is sill impossible to find and kill? There will be a probe with almost unlimited range, it's not the best but it will be able to find ships that have gone to far into space. And it will be able to work alone, like all probes will. 50000AU probes?
James Duar	Posted - 2006.06.28 02:05:00 - [73] I'm sorry but I'd like to say to all those complaining about a single attacker shutting down operations in a system -- you're not really thinking about the problem correctly. If someone is buzzing the system, then gang up everyone in the system and wait for them to attack someone. They yell for help in gang chat and everyone else warps in on top of them. I approve of better scanners, but this was just a ridiculous complaint that showed a complete lack of lateral thinking. --- Encrypted Client Side Bookmarks! Raise YOUR voice to CCP. Let's end slow copy times and bookmark lag for good!
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.06.28 02:20:00 - [74] Originally by: Demangel Being able to explore a system, be it for PVP or other purposes should be the right of every player, and every ship... Not a special ability only gained by those with missile slots they don't mind sacrificing for scouting abilities. Probe launchers don't use a missile hardpoint last time I checked. WRT the main discussion, I'd just like to throw this thought in: Currently probes are one of the few areas of Eve in which personal skill and knowledge are absolutely crucial. The current system is badly-documented and badly-understood, and it's something of a black art. Further, even when you know how what you're trying to do works in theory, putting it into practice is still a challenge. As a result, I'd say that in many respects it's one of the best bits of Eve. The current system does need an overhaul, some bits do need to be binned and other bits do need to be made easier. But it would be a huge shame if it stopped being an art and started being a science, because it would I feel take something important out of the game in the process.
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.06.28 02:20:00 - [75] sweet cant wait for the new scanning system, oh no 2more skills to train oh well still great damn need to make a new sig...
Noriath	Posted - 2006.06.28 02:22:00 - [76] Edited by: Noriath on 28/06/2006 02:24:53 Originally by: James Duar I'm sorry but I'd like to say to all those complaining about a single attacker shutting down operations in a system -- you're not really thinking about the problem correctly. If someone is buzzing the system, then gang up everyone in the system and wait for them to attack someone. They yell for help in gang chat and everyone else warps in on top of them. What in the blazes are you rambling about? If you gang up everyone in the syste and expect them to be ready to warp on top of an enemy with a setup that can acctually counter the kinds of ships that intruders use your operations ARE shut down. You can't expect to win an engagement with the kinds of ships intruders who try to get cheap ganks and disrupt operations use if you just warp your ratting battleships there. Besides, a smart intruder will never acctually atack anyone as soon as the gang is in the system and he knows he's being hunted. That's the part I am complaining about. You can't leave the system because then they will atack someone, but you can't combat them either because all they have to do in order to waste your time is not show themselves...
Idara	Posted - 2006.06.28 02:56:00 - [77] Oh my god...I can't freakin' wait!
Avernus	Posted - 2006.06.28 03:02:00 - [78] Noriath, I had to look up what alliance you were in, because I'm becoming seriously disturbed by your alliances apparent lack of creativity in the pvp department.... from reading your descriptions of your alliances gang activities, and methods of response, it's like there is a mental block or an inability to cope any time you have to deal with hostiles. Hours of camping, inability to think outside the box.. I've heard some horror stories concerning your alliances inability to deal with raiders, but this is sort of cementing my thoughts on it. The 'blob', and the will to camp is not the means to survival as an alliance; you can force out smaller opponents from their own space with tactics like that, but they are nearly useless in matters of defence against a near equal sized foe. Hopefully, when Kali progresses, and constellation sovereignty kicks in and more automatic defenses come into play, you'll be able to hold your own against the small raiders, but based upon your views (if they are widely held) I wouldn't bet on even short term survival were one of the other big 2 to take a shot at you... with or without Kali. Evolve man! And find some damn FCs who can be creative and aggressive. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.06.28 04:12:00 - [79] Obviously I can't explain the exact circumstances of why we are having so much trouble with people safespotting and logging off in systems we should be able to defend a lot better, but trust me it's not pure incompetence.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.06.28 05:52:00 - [80] Sounds promising, when can we test it? Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
MIstress Saki	Posted - 2006.06.28 06:45:00 - [81] Originally by: Avernus Noriath, I had to look up what alliance you were in, because I'm becoming seriously disturbed by your alliances apparent lack of creativity in the pvp department.... from reading your descriptions of your alliances gang activities, and methods of response, it's like there is a mental block or an inability to cope any time you have to deal with hostiles. Hours of camping, inability to think outside the box.. I've heard some horror stories concerning your alliances inability to deal with raiders, but this is sort of cementing my thoughts on it. The 'blob', and the will to camp is not the means to survival as an alliance; you can force out smaller opponents from their own space with tactics like that, but they are nearly useless in matters of defence against a near equal sized foe. Hopefully, when Kali progresses, and constellation sovereignty kicks in and more automatic defenses come into play, you'll be able to hold your own against the small raiders, but based upon your views (if they are widely held) I wouldn't bet on even short term survival were one of the other big 2 to take a shot at you... with or without Kali. Evolve man! And find some damn FCs who can be creative and aggressive. Ahh the old ä gang up and catch themààôcommentary. If it would be so easy. Maybe in your theoretical fantasy world against some stupid nops such ôtacticsö will be successful. I the last year we had gain enough experience about what raiders are able to do. Against experience raiders in small ship (mainly Interceptors) you have almost 0% to catch them or do you relay think he donÆt know about the ôwarp toö button? If raiders appear you must interrupt your current mining operations, you must fly to your POS to change ships and then a useless ôhuntö begins which can take hours. As long as the attackers stay in the system you cannot return to normal work. And what happens when you bring reinforcements? Yes they log out. Nice, isnÆt it? After some boring senseless ôhuntsö we discovered that the best way is to ignore the raiders and fight back with ôboredomö. We log and play another game. And please donÆt call such game play ôtacticsö it is only insufficient game mechanics (easy savespoting, log out, insufficient (POS) scanning abilities (which will change I hope), local)
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2006.06.28 06:56:00 - [82] A nice blog, and quite promising at that ! One problem though. It's going to be very easy to confuse enemies when they are trying to scan your ship down by having dozens of shuttles parked around the same area. I mean, faster scanning is all good, but without shiptypes to select and scan for you are going to potentially end up with results for every single left item in your region of space. I think that's going to have a serious impact on how usefull this is going to be in the end. Old blog
Edmund Khan	Posted - 2006.06.28 07:39:00 - [83] Edited by: Edmund Khan on 28/06/2006 07:42:36 Can we get some type of temporary bookmarks along with these changes? We're all aware of the current bookmarks situation. It takes a lot of time to add a new one if you already have 10k of them in people and places, so this is not very cool when you're scanning down a system. And besides the timelag issue, you then also have a whole bunch of useless instas in your p&p... I though of something like flags that only last as long as you're in system. Or as long as your probes are in space. After that they dissapear. After i saw the devblog system scanning picture i simply had to edit it a bit and here it is: These flags would be ofcourse warpable to and maybe even sharable inside a group. Maybe with some tooltips when hovering above them, with the name and description, visible on overview and in space...
BadIronTree	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:05:00 - [84] are you going to fix recon ships? so they can fit a Covert Ops Cloaking Device II and a Cynosural Field Generator I at the same time as they sould? now 50% of the role of the ship is gone :/ recon ships are useless now :( _________ Elite Frigate pilot :) Assault, Interceptors, Stealth bombers, Interdictors, covert ops the sig is stolen like your corpes :)
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:09:00 - [85] Originally by: TomB Originally by: R3dSh1ft I would also like to know about the possibility of scanning for a cloaked ship Cloaked ships will be scanable, but they won't get uncloaked if they are found on the scanner. omg perfect I really do love you now. may I suggest the following, cloaked ships should be findable with probes however to really pin point their location you need to use the directional scanner and as soon as you get within 2km it will get decloaked and be ganked . cloaked alts ftl Greetings Grim
Mindlles	Posted - 2006.06.28 08:20:00 - [86] Its sounds good, Some more tweaks and it will be great.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.06.28 09:13:00 - [87] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 28/06/2006 07:09:24 A nice blog, and quite promising at that ! One problem though. It's going to be very easy to confuse enemies when they are trying to scan your ship down by hiding in between the derelicts in space. I mean, faster scanning is all good, but without shiptypes to select and scan for you are going to potentially end up with results for every single left item in your region of space. I think that's going to have a serious impact on how usefull this is going to be in the end. Considering the range of these probes, there must be a result filter of some kind, otherwise we do indeed have chaos on our hands. --- The Eve Wiki Community Portal \| Eve Tribune
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.06.28 10:25:00 - [88] Originally by: Edmund Khan I though of something like flags that only last as long as you're in system. This is a great idea. @Rod's comment, the obvious solution would be to allow you to filter your scan results using the overview settings. Not only does this allow you to keep the same functionality and reuse an existing set of presets etc, but it also means that you can run multiple filters on the same set of results, so you can do one scan, filter the results for frigs, and then filter it for BS without having to do a rescan. That would be nifty.
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.28 11:12:00 - [89] One more tiny comment, which might seem unrelated but is rather relevant imho: Can you make it so that entering a Force Field NEGATES any PvP Timer you are on? When you introduced PvP Timers, reasoning was that if you got yourself in trouble, pay the price: Put up a POS to log or fit a Cloak. Cloaking is going to be scannable (Which is good), but logging at a POS STILL requires you to stay there for 15 minutes waiting for the Timer to finish. And with scanning being made easier, logging off at a POS while on PvP Timer will mean guaranteed death if the other side is paying attention. (It already is now, but meh)
Damien Smith	Posted - 2006.06.28 11:16:00 - [90] With regards to guerilla covops pilots disrupting your operations, the problem isn't that there's no way to locate them, it's that you shouldn't know they're there in the first place. The whole point of a covert pilot is that they're supposed to be unseen, able to move about at will collecting information, that's what they're for. The only reason you know they even entered your system is because you see them in local, which is a different can of worms entirely. Nerfing coverts by allowing them to be scanned for will kill them completely. What's the point of a cloaked ship that can't remain hidden?
Dufas	Posted - 2006.06.28 11:30:00 - [91] Sounds great...long as we dont get screwed with probes that r to big to fit more then say 2 in cargo with no bps so we cant make them in .0 or some other hinderence __________
fairimear	Posted - 2006.06.28 12:21:00 - [92] Edited by: fairimear on 28/06/2006 12:24:07 so tomb you are removind the ability to use a carrier in eve for anything but frontline(suicide work) and pos hugging? that right no more carriers at ss deligating fighters. and whats this no more carriers in 0.0 without a pos at all, why you ask? o thats simple, because you can't cloak em any more to keep em safe from scans at a ss. the nme now warp to it and becasue you are as slow as a brick there scouts with drone trails WILL fnd it. and dont even think of trying to warp to another spot if they warp in, your forgetting you line up like a oil tanker. less not forget the rest of your gang who strike poorly defened targets and then cloak at ss when a uber blob comes. i mean it's all their fualt the alliance can't fight samll gang on small gang and win so you just hand their blobs a way to hunt down the small raiders and never let them do the work that keep's undeserving aliances from holding space. heres a idea why dont you fix combat setups using wcs or the never balanced ecm/eccm, or the boring fleet fights of 100v1 ship repeated 100times untill it's over. SCANNING CLOAKED SHIPS IS THE WORST IDEA IN THE LONG SAD HISTORY OF YOU BAD IDEAS TOMB
Deakin Frost	Posted - 2006.06.28 12:23:00 - [93] Oh god, I love you guys! Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!)
El Yatta	Posted - 2006.06.28 12:33:00 - [94] Originally by: Elve Sorrow Edited by: Elve Sorrow on 27/06/2006 21:31:30 Originally by: R3dSh1ft Originally by: Elve Sorrow Will these new Probes be able to find off-plane safes? The ones made with the current Deepspace that just send you 100 AU straight up and such? Linkage [...]That have gone too far into space[...] says exactly nothing about my question. The current Deepspace Observer Probes can find them too - as long as you're on the same plane. I want to know if these can find off-plane safespots too. Essentially, if this works in true 3D or not. You can already do this with observators, a VERY good grasp of the scanner, and a bit of luck, as well as judicious (not constant) use of the other ranged probes. The good thing is that MOST PEOPLE DONT KNOW IT. I have to say that the screenshot at the end of the blog is very sexy, and I want it lots. However, I'm concerned that they will take all the fun out of it, all the skill, that some of us have worked hard to acquire (and I acknowledge that I'm not even close to some of the scanning greats I've seen in action, but I can and will bust most spots in a system, including offplane deep-space multi-100 au spots). I'm especially annoyed that they are removing the triangle of probes - this was the first hurdle that most people fell at when trying to probe, getting the target within a triangle, especially near a warpable object with no others around it (like a gate on the edge of a system). Still, true 3D and integration with the UBER scrolling view/solarsystem/map do make me happy. ---\|\|---
Deakin Frost	Posted - 2006.06.28 12:36:00 - [95] The probe triangle is an urban myth.
D2O LightWater	Posted - 2006.06.28 12:36:00 - [96] About time fella
Deakin Frost	Posted - 2006.06.28 12:39:00 - [97] Originally by: xplosiv you pt a carrier at a safe and run ops with cruiser frig and hac's with fighter for backup you can stop them using the system as a industrial basis for npc/mining cus your carrier is off scan probe angle. Gee, why don't we just make carriers baseline instead and have proxy warfare instead?
Deakin Frost	Posted - 2006.06.28 12:44:00 - [98] Originally by: Monica Foulkes Does that screenshot mean that all backdrops from Kali and onwards will be the exisiting stars in the EvE galaxy plus a transparent cloud and not just some "suitable" texture image? Lets hope so. Celestia can render 50000 stars (multipixel) and 300000 redshift plot points (single pixel) while still keeping a good framerate, while EVE would just need to render 5500 of them.
fairimear	Posted - 2006.06.28 12:45:00 - [99] Originally by: Deakin Frost Originally by: xplosiv you pt a carrier at a safe and run ops with cruiser frig and hac's with fighter for backup you can stop them using the system as a industrial basis for npc/mining cus your carrier is off scan probe angle. Gee, why don't we just make carriers baseline instead and have proxy warfare instead? now theres a good idea, maybe some 1 responsible for balancing will look at the reasons why no one wants to put them on the front line.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.06.28 13:13:00 - [100] Originally by: El Yatta I'm especially annoyed that they are removing the triangle of probes - this was the first hurdle that most people fell at when trying to probe, getting the target within a triangle, especially near a warpable object with no others around it (like a gate on the edge of a system). Still, true 3D and integration with the UBER scrolling view/solarsystem/map do make me happy. You saw the bit where you can't drop probes within the scan radius of other probes but that multiple overlapping probes increase accuracy, right? Depending on how the accuracy things are set up, you could find that you'll land out of grid unless you have multiple overlapping probes, requiring the multi-drop approach of the kind exemplified by the triangle, but where you can't just triple-drop probes in the same spot when you're close enough and get a perfect fix. There's slightly more depth to the system as described than is obvious on a first read-through.
Avernus	Posted - 2006.06.28 14:16:00 - [101] Originally by: MIstress Saki Ahh the old ä gang up and catch themààôcommentary. If it would be so easy. Maybe in your theoretical fantasy world against some stupid nops such ôtacticsö will be successful. I the last year we had gain enough experience about what raiders are able to do. ...stuff I have to respond... I'm sorry, but I have to take pity here, this is just pathetic. I can't believe that you are actually shutting down entire operations in the area due to some inty raiders, it's simply unreal. Then once you aren't actually doing anything, you (in your own words) then embark on a useless hunt. /Slaps saki with a trout Oddly enough, I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to defending against raiders. Near 3 years a resident of Querious. We have a history of daily raiders dating back to the Curse Alliance when they used our space as a training grounds. Here is a 'crazy off the wall idea' Instead of going 'Oh Noes, pirates!' and logging off in order to bore them to death, how about you take some people off their primary carebear duties in the op and instead put them in ships for Guard and Escort duty? I know... it's just crazy... PS. FA used to think the blob up or bore them tactic worked as well; it took the loss of their space to learn otherwise. Nothing in life is quite so sweet as the taste of payback.
Azriel Dregg	Posted - 2006.06.28 14:31:00 - [102] I'm sure this has already been suggested somewhere, but any chance of considering adding a new detectable object, let's call it "Ship Signature" for now, that lets you both detect and probe the location where a player was when they logged off? Currently tactics to log off fleets at a SS in order to perform a logon trap are favored by some, and while increasing timeouts for ships to disappear or introducing a locking penalty after logon are good suggestions -- it would be nice to also include roles for cov ops scouts to detect them. Probe their logoff position, send a gang with an interdictor and start a camp fire. Or just avoid the system with your escort/etc gang, since there's a high likelyhood of a logon trap when your scout sees 15 ship signatures in a pipe system. This would force hostile incursions into deep alliance territory to utilize tactics to bring in POS for fleets to logoff at, since the signature would lead you to the place where they warped from when they logged off... It would also allow defence of regions from gang incursions that simply log off once you get them locked down to a system and go for a few hour break. As preemptive comment for those who say "this will prevent small pirate gangs entering big alliance territory" -- why should you be able to roam around without fear in an alliance space that takes billions per month to secure, by simply login off when things get too hot? Rewards vs Risks -- roaming gangs would need to use diversions and prepare to take few losses if they enter hostile space, not just press the close button and go for dinner.

TomB	Posted - 2006.06.28 15:51:00 - [103] Originally by: fairimear so tomb you are removind the ability to use a carrier in eve for anything but frontline(suicide work) and pos hugging? Carriers are supposed to be capable of frontline combat, have you ever wondered why they get these support bonuses? Making scanning a usable tool for finding things won't get cut off because this ship class ain't in the right state of balance. .

R Dan	Posted - 2006.06.28 16:25:00 - [104] Hey TomB great blog, couple of questions: is it envisioned that these changes to scanner will start the process of moving towards an 0.0 space that doesnt have a mandetory local chat? so rather than easily looking at local to see whos about you need to deploy probes? -maybe that have a GFX change when a new ship enters their scan radius? Would being cloaked lower your chance of being reported by a scan? I'm sure I've got others but cant think stright atm I will save you, but make sure you bring beer - Wrangler and cAKe - Imaran I thought it was bREe, omgi'mgivingawaymodroomsecwetsftl - Cortes when come back ... bring PIE. Me like PIE. -Capsicum
fairimear	Posted - 2006.06.28 17:19:00 - [105] Originally by: TomB Originally by: fairimear so tomb you are removind the ability to use a carrier in eve for anything but frontline(suicide work) and pos hugging? Carriers are supposed to be capable of frontline combat, have you ever wondered why they get these support bonuses? Making scanning a usable tool for finding things won't get cut off because this ship class ain't in the right state of balance. should i be exectinga blog on balancing current ships within the next week then? goodie i can't wait maybe we will get suport cruiser that people will fly to. or is this just a way to explain off changes that affect ships as they are used now not effect ships as you would like them to be used at some point.
Deakin Frost	Posted - 2006.06.28 17:34:00 - [106] You know, you could just use multiple safespots instead and stay aligned to a new one to get the hell out as soon something shows up on overview? Jesus Christ, put some frickin' effort in it. If people are supposed to die against your drones, then you should be vulnerable, too. Get the hell out!
fairimear	Posted - 2006.06.28 18:02:00 - [107] Edited by: fairimear on 28/06/2006 18:05:28 Originally by: Deakin Frost You know, you could just use multiple safespots instead and stay aligned to a new one to get the hell out as soon something shows up on overview? Jesus Christ, put some frickin' effort in it. If people are supposed to die against your drones, then you should be vulnerable, too. Get the hell out! there is just no need to be able to find cloaked ships. if you had any idea you would be aware you can't make anything die to your fighters well you cloaked becasue you see you can't controll them then. to use them you have to be uncloaked and then you are vulnerable to normal scanning, thats fair i think. but why is it fair that some 1 can scan you well you are cloaked and have a covert ops waiting at that safe for when you uncloak to deligate OR to refit a ally ship. O and btw tomb carriers have the ability to deligate fighters for remote combat, hence they should not always have to be on the front line.
El Yatta	Posted - 2006.06.28 18:36:00 - [108] Originally by: Deakin Frost The probe triangle is an urban myth. It really really isnt - try some very advanced scanning and you will see. However, as Joerd said - I suppose if to bust harder-to-find ships you have to overlap some probes then thats still a good element of skill to it. ---\|\|---
EzraFromBrooklyn	Posted - 2006.06.28 18:52:00 - [109] please do not change the scan probes by that much, at the moment it is easy enought to find someone and actually takes a little bit of skill, making it an art. If you want to make it easier to find NPC and Stationary objects that would be gr8 to encourage exploration but if u make it all about skill points to find ppl in safe spots you will take a niche that is used by ppl who learned the tricks and turn it into entirely skill point dependant.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.06.28 18:55:00 - [110] Originally by: TomB Carriers are supposed to be capable of frontline combat, have you ever wondered why they get these support bonuses? Making scanning a usable tool for finding things won't get cut off because this ship class ain't in the right state of balance. That just made my day, I'd love to see capital ships rebalanced to acctually be right up there on the front lines. I'm not entirely sure how it will be done so that they will not incur many more losses then they do right now, but this will be great! Originally by: Avernus Here is a 'crazy off the wall idea' Instead of going 'Oh Noes, pirates!' and logging off in order to bore them to death, how about you take some people off their primary carebear duties in the op and instead put them in ships for Guard and Escort duty? I know... it's just crazy... So how is that any different from having all the defenders blob up? They still have to stop whatever they are doing and get on guard duty. Besides, the real issue here is not that it's impossible to defend your own from these kinds of punks. I like to refer to them as Darvin's little helpers because they usually only kill the people that aren't paying attention. The real issue is that there is hardly a way to kill a raider who knows when to atack and when not to. If you get defenders and escrorts out you will not even see a good raider within 500km of them, because they know that just by keeping the defenders on the miners they are costing them millions and millions in ratting money. I have nothing against that per se, those kinds of tactics are perfectly valid, but the risk factor to invaders is just too low, and I don't think even with the new scanning system it will be possible to catch someone who has become very skilled at evasion.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.06.28 19:08:00 - [111] Originally by: fairimear there is just no need to be able to find cloaked ships. Yes there is. Just because it's a problem for the current implementation of carriers doesn't mean it's not a good idea for everything else.
fairimear	Posted - 2006.06.28 20:03:00 - [112] Edited by: fairimear on 28/06/2006 20:03:05 Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: fairimear there is just no need to be able to find cloaked ships. Yes there is. Just because it's a problem for the current implementation of carriers doesn't mean it's not a good idea for everything else. COmE ON what way on earth is any non covertops (that can warp off from the safe cloaked any way) that is cloaked harming you. why should you be able to stalk it waiting for it to decloak at it's safe when all it has done is sit there. it's can't fire at you without decloaking it can't do sod all. so why is it not plenty being able to scan it when it is decloak when it may be actualy doing something to you other than putting you off mining because it's in system and you can't tell if he is afk or not just waiting for you to go do something like npc hunt. god dam you don't deserve to be in 0.0 if you can't tactical lure it out and kill it with bait and your brains
Noriath	Posted - 2006.06.28 21:17:00 - [113] Having a cloaked ship in a system is incredibly useful, because it allows you to watch local and thereby see who's moving into and out of the system. So it is hurtiing someone, good information is half the battle in Eve. Acctually more like three fourths the battle. Also I don't see how it is so horrible if cloaked ships show up on probes. They won't be decloaked by it, so there is no way of even knowing wether your probe got an accurate reading or not, and decloaking ships once you are in the vincinity of them is not really that easy unless we're talking about a huge ship that can't move out of the way and is rather easy to bump into by accident.
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.06.28 23:56:00 - [114] Oh my god... I want to kiss him, but I want to kill him even more. What I understand from the blog is that the Recons will be the new scan probes uber users, and there will be MORE skills to learn to use them. OK, I can do with learning the skills necessary for speeding up the scan probes, although, I can't think of any valid reason to introduce these and I'll explain later. But now I have to learn to fly a Recon ship (not too hard for me, maybe a week's time) and buy a 160+ mil ship to be able to do what only the Covert Ops was doing before: scan faster. What happens to the Covert ops? Why did they have to lose their role as the fastest scanning ship? I'm going to draw paralels to real life here, but when did you use a B-52 bomber (fatest plane that comes to my limited mind) to do recon work? Or that 260 pounds soldier? I fail to see the reasoning for "support skills" for scanning, as this is not a skill/module someone uses THAT often in your pilot life. Take gunnery "support skills" (Motion prediction, that sort of skills). You use them, as a fighter, every time you fight. Missile skills, same deal. New drone skills, same. But scanning? How many times in your life did you use the scanning skills? And changing Astrometrics' role to find more groups of ships? Come on, pod my character without a clone while you're at it. It took a long time for my low intelligence and memory to learn that... Why the hell do I have to spend yet more time to relearn a skill I had? Finding cloaked ships... I hate it, but whatever. Scan, find cloaked ship, bring in the interdictor and launch a sphere. Bye bye covers ops/recon. Obviously, I love the scan view and the fact that the probes are able to scan in 3D. I also kinda like having to only use 1 probe to find a ship, although that takes away from the fun of scanning. A couple of more questions: Will the BPOs for ALL probes be available on the market this time? Has any of my scanner improvements suggestions been taken into account? (more important, the ability to quickly divide the scan range, a visual indication of where you're scanning in space, probes no longer display on the scanner and have the name of the ship we scanned for appear, rather than some meaningless ID) When can we test this new system on Sisi? I was looking forward to this, now I'm no longer sure.
Firefly Fox	Posted - 2006.06.29 02:28:00 - [115] What the heck is wrong with the link? Both in Firefox and Internet Explorer if I click the link it opens to This post, but if I copy the link and paste it into the address bar I get the devblog like Im suppost to. Alot of links on this site do this. Something to do with the referer maybe? Anyone else having this problem?
IsmaelYU5 Iluvatar	Posted - 2006.06.29 03:48:00 - [116] ok im mostly happy with these features but i foresee a huge problem: the result for finding everyone everywhere will be a ****load of more bm's ------------ An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind - Gandhi
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.06.29 09:19:00 - [117] Originally by: Donna Darko How many times in your life did you use the scanning skills? More than I can count. All the damn time, in fact. Don't use them much? Don't specialise in them. Some of us are looking forward to being able to get an edge in this area though...

TomB	Posted - 2006.06.29 11:09:00 - [118] Originally by: Donna Darko What happens to the Covert ops? Why did they have to lose their role as the fastest scanning ship? Woopsie, the name "Recon Launcher" has nothing to do with Recon ships there, it's just called that atm, Covert Ops are still supposed to be equally or even more scan based than Recons. I'll get the name changed, thanks for pointing that out. .

Mistrall	Posted - 2006.06.29 11:34:00 - [119] TomB, then thats fine cos I see some thoughts finally being applied to the Recon. Perhaps specialising this ship combined with the new 'Explorer' role whilst keeping the smaller frigate 'cov-ops' class to fast probing with the new probes so far so good..keep up the good work Mistrall
Steppa	Posted - 2006.06.29 12:43:00 - [120] Well, thanks for acknowledging the fact that carriers=suicide machines in fleet combat. As for scanning covert ops ships, perhaps you would need a special probe to find them, but the alt with a covert ops sitting in a system idle all day has long been the bane of 0.0 operations. Since I don't think CCP will address problems using alts (due to it's impact on the financial bottom line), this is the next best thing. Now all we need is some fair and balanced way of dealing with idlers that are using up bandwidth and we're golden.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.06.29 15:06:00 - [121] "so why is it not plenty being able to scan it when it is decloak when it may be actualy doing something to you other than putting you off mining because it's in system and you can't tell if he is afk or not just waiting for you to go do something like npc hunt. god dam you don't deserve to be in 0.0 if you can't tactical lure it out and kill it with bait and your brains" You can reverse this whine very easily -- if someone expects to be able to just put on a cloak and go afk for hours in 0.0 safespot perfectly safe, they "god dam don't deserve to be there" in the first place. So they may have to move around every now and then. Noes.
Kyguard	Posted - 2006.06.29 16:28:00 - [122] I need new pants and I need em now! === God is on the side with the best arti
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.06.29 17:52:00 - [123] Originally by: Donna Darko OK, I've see 0.0 blobs jump through a gate in front of me quite often, and most of them lacked covert ops. My question was adressed to players, I was curious how many of you do it. You might just be the only person I know who only flies covert ops and scans every day. Anyway, faster scanning and specialization is not really what I have a problem with, but the Astrometrics skill change is. You don't see them? Dude, that's the whole point Seriously though. Blobs in 0.0 have coverts out. They're not with the blobs, because they're scouting ahead, but they're there. And if they're any good, you won't see them, even if you're looking for them. And while a lot of them don't bother with probes, many do. Going out without a prober is a drawback, but going out without a covops at all is suicide.
solidshot	Posted - 2006.06.29 19:19:00 - [124] will it be possible to scan for drones, cans ect as well?
Gorion Wassenar	Posted - 2006.06.29 20:16:00 - [125] I am quite worried about the scanner spamming situation of anyone detecting a COVOP and just warping away. How are they supposed to sneak up on people? How about they do not show up on the ship scanners and just probes. ------------------ CEO of TKI
Bearclaww	Posted - 2006.06.29 22:53:00 - [126] Scan for Cargo Cans....for all the one missions runners leave behind. It might be worthwhile sometimes What about that
Maxlis	Posted - 2006.06.29 23:34:00 - [127] Wow, scanning is taking a turn for the awesome. I'll be glad to see this in game :)
Medici	Posted - 2006.06.30 01:10:00 - [128] Cloaked ships turning up on a scanner? Regarding Co-Ops and Recon,not sure its fitting for a dedicated stealth vessel to show up at all on any scans,for intelligence gathering and creating jump 2 warp in points,you want both suprise and stealth,which from reading the blog will go if they show up at all. Maybe instead just allow for ships using Proto/Improved Cloaks to send back a register,it could be explained as something like ,"due to the inefficiancy of the Proto/Improved cloaks certain signal leakage is to be expected" so whilst invisible to the eye they emit small particles that to a varying degree and can show up on scans. Regarding Cloaked zombies in your system all day,annoying yes but so are gatecamps,bubbles,100man gank fleets for 1 frig,macrominers,scammers,spys,corp theifs,moles,suicide kessie alt,log on traps,log off miner pansies,and a whole host of other things. Please don't hit the skill specific Covert roles Tomb,there must be some kind of way keeping them stealthy?
booh	Posted - 2006.06.30 07:29:00 - [129] Scanning for coverted ships is OK, it should take longer to scan for it though (maybe twice the normal time).
fuze	Posted - 2006.06.30 08:21:00 - [130] Scanning for coverts isn't that much affecting because they can move without any speed penalty. You'll still won't catch em, just scare them away at best. They still can keep moving around blobs at 2k or more distance without being found ever. But what bugs me is the scientific theory behind this. How in Eve is it possible that a probe can scan a cloaked signature from several AU away? Some kind of subspace doppler radar with extraordinairy precision? Then again Eve pretty much defies all know scientific theories. How about adding beacons that give out false ship signatures? Make those special type of probes and you could have a nice chess game of ships trying to find eachother. Scanning cloaked ships actually only affects proto and II cloakers since they can't move that fast. And pretty much makes them useless when being scanned. So I agree that scanning coverts is hugely in favor of alliances and disfavors guerilla warfare. Its even in huge favor of any defensive group that can find all ships of an attacking smaller group and neutralize all ships. It also is a huge problem with (older) storylines having cloaked jovian ships. Because they are all scannable now unless you come up with some advanced cloaking technology. But that sounds like an poor excuse to me. I just don't like it when devs think out new stuff without thinking it through thorroughly because it affects the game too much and you have to come up with even more trainable skills tyring to undo the negative effects. The new way of scanning is pretty much exciting but please keep in mind the effects of scanning cloaked ships. They are not to be taken lightly. We ain't got balls, but plenty of nuts.
babylonstew	Posted - 2006.06.30 11:22:00 - [131] well, being able to scan cloakers just kicked stealth bombers in the danglies, like they needed another kick apart from the whole cloak thing, looks good Forum advice Linkage
Donna Darko	Posted - 2006.06.30 11:24:00 - [132] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Donna Darko OK, I've see 0.0 blobs [...] and most of them lacked covert ops. You don't see them? Dude, that's the whole point Seriously though. Blobs in 0.0 have coverts out. They're not with the blobs, because they're scouting ahead, but they're there. And if they're any good, you won't see them, even if you're looking for them. And while a lot of them don't bother with probes, many do. Going out without a prober is a drawback, but going out without a covops at all is suicide. Oh, come on, Joerd... Now you're just insulting my intelligence.
ArchenTheGreat	Posted - 2006.06.30 11:41:00 - [133] We all know there is some time to Kali. I have some questions than: - will current probes be fixed before Kali comes out? I mean: make them all work like Deep Space Observator Probe - in full 3D. - if you have no plans on fixing probes: will new probes work in 3D or like the old ones? - please do not change meaning of Astrometrics skill, it takes a while to train it for lvl5 but it is worth it now, if you change it's meaning most of the time people will scan for only one group at a time (ships) making all those skillpoints useless - will there be any tutorial "how to use scanner"? - will you train GM in scanner use? I petitioned scan probes twice and got contradicting answers from GMs, the only way to learn how they worked was to train Astrometrics lvl5 (which costed me almost 15 euros only to find they are broken).
Medici	Posted - 2006.06.30 13:19:00 - [134] Edited by: Medici on 30/06/2006 13:23:49 Originally by: booh Scanning for coverted ships is OK, it should take longer to scan for it though (maybe twice the normal time). Not intending to bait here Booh but why is it ok to be able to scan for Covert/Recon ships,I just don't get the devs reasoning to include this group also. Taking these groups names in the strict sense,(Covert meaning hidden/secret and Recon/Reconnoiter* meaning to gather intelligence mainly military),just being visible and scannable for seems to nerf their named roles in Eve. If these ships become scannable for with any probes,regardless of the fact they can still be cloaked and hard to catch,alerts a fleet to their prescence in a system. If are then probed for the corp or alliance a rough position of the ship. From here I would expect a fleet to start to adjust their strategies accordingly,which means whatever was you turn it a Covert is no longer hidden and a Recon is no longer picking up accurate information on a fleet/corps true movement/strategies as they are now alerted not only to position but also ship class. Further impacted in this would be warp in points using Cov/Rec ships to drop jump in fleets onto targets,as above the fleet/corp would be aware of ship class and region and adjust accordingly. Finally I don't see how making them longer to scan for helps either as intelligence gathering is can be fairly slow and time consuming anyway,so eventually your going to show up on the scans results and its back to square one. Its not a flame Booh just trying to understand the Devs resons for including Cov/Rec class in scannable ship types,(other than the fact alliances/corps detest zombie Cloakers sat in their system all day)*.
booh	Posted - 2006.06.30 15:00:00 - [135] Edited by: booh on 30/06/2006 15:02:56 Edited by: booh on 30/06/2006 15:01:46 Originally by: Medici Edited by: Medici on 30/06/2006 13:23:49 If these ships become scannable for with any probes,regardless of the fact they can still be cloaked and hard to catch,alerts a fleet to their prescence in a system. ...... Finally I don't see how making them longer to scan for helps either as intelligence gathering is can be fairly slow and time consuming anyway,so eventually your going to show up on the scans results and its back to square one. First point... If i got you right... you are concerned about enemy pilots being spotted in local because of probing? If this is the case, there is now the local channel, where you can see enemy contacts, no matter if cloacked or not. Second. Longer scans would be kind of explainable. There was some concerns about how the cloacked ships can be scannable... I was thinking CCP could say they still have a scan signature, just a small one, which would result in longer scan times. Like scanning for anomalies in space (star trek style) And scanning for cloacked ships would be kind of preventing people to go AFK at safespots for long times... And the longer scanning times would be some kind of protection for active cloackers (active as opposite for AFK).
Velsharoon	Posted - 2006.06.30 17:05:00 - [136] Hehe bye bye mission runners
Semkhet	Posted - 2006.06.30 20:35:00 - [137] Edited by: Semkhet on 30/06/2006 20:36:29 The point about letting cloaked ships appear on scanner will affect ships using proto and improved cloaks but not those able to fit cloaks II. For cloaks II, since probes will deliver results affected by variable precision according to the type of probe and luck (randomness), and since the scan will not uncloak them, it will be pointless to attempt to decrease the error margin via successive scans till you get a viable warping target at let's say 15 Km because the CovOps or Recon will simply warp away still cloaked and you won't catch zilch. However for all the other cloaks who require desactivation prior to warp, it becomes interesting and they will find themselves in a critical situation. Therefore the new usual method will probably be to only attempt to pinpoint the location if the class of cloaked ship is different than CovOps or Force Recons. Now if the new interface implemented in the scan dialog doesen't discriminate between roles but is instead based on generic ship classes, let's say by displaying only frigs, elite frigs, cruisers, elite cruisers instead of frigs, af, bombers, covops, cruisers, hacs, force recon, etc... then I can predict a lot of frustration and people will probably not bother to scan for elite frigs and elite cruisers since it could be a covops or force recon that will never get caught. For the rest of the ships, the procedure will be simple: Interdictor warps to hunting CovOps or Force Recon and releases a few bubbles around, and rest of the team warps in and brushes the area by flying through the zone with their drones orbiting so each ship can create a spheric uncloakable area according to the various default orbit distance of different types of drones.
Medici	Posted - 2006.06.30 21:05:00 - [138] Edited by: Medici on 30/06/2006 21:07:02 Originally by: booh Edited by: booh on 30/06/2006 15:02:56 Edited by: booh on 30/06/2006 15:01:46 Originally by: Medici Edited by: Medici on 30/06/2006 13:23:49 If these ships become scannable for with any probes,regardless of the fact they can still be cloaked and hard to catch,alerts a fleet to their prescence in a system. ...... Finally I don't see how making them longer to scan for helps either as intelligence gathering is can be fairly slow and time consuming anyway,so eventually your going to show up on the scans results and its back to square one. First point... If i got you right... you are concerned about enemy pilots being spotted in local because of probing? If this is the case, there is now the local channel, where you can see enemy contacts, no matter if cloacked or not. Second. Longer scans would be kind of explainable. There was some concerns about how the cloacked ships can be scannable... I was thinking CCP could say they still have a scan signature, just a small one, which would result in longer scan times. Like scanning for anomalies in space (star trek style) And scanning for cloacked ships would be kind of preventing people to go AFK at safespots for long times... And the longer scanning times would be some kind of protection for active cloackers (active as opposite for AFK). My concerns are mainly about the Cov/Recon class of ships,and are centered around them showing up with any kind of probe. I understand your point about local,what i'm trying to get at is that in their roles the fact they don't show up at all on scans is a huge benefit. If they show up and the class can be confirmed,the target group I would expect to adapt accordingly. So im not so concerned about them being caught,as to their roles of surveillance and intelligence gathering being impacted,as they are no longer totally invisible,and lose much of their effectiveness,as targets can now at least scan them down to get id. To respond to your second point,I had also considered a longer scanning time,but I came to the conclusion again that if they show up on scans at all seems to nerf their roles. But I think your idea that it could be like sig radius,where cov cause a very long time to give result to probe scans and evem then only to the most accurate ones,is probably what will happen. After reading semkhets post it would seem this is the case :) Yup I agree i'm left thinking the Devs want to disuade AFK cloaked at safespots,but it would be nice if they can clarify their reasons for making Cov/Recon scannable,tbh if they can't be caught then why even make them show up?
Bubba Zenetti	Posted - 2006.07.01 18:21:00 - [139] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Donna Darko OK, I've see 0.0 blobs jump through a gate in front of me quite often, and most of them lacked covert ops. My question was adressed to players, I was curious how many of you do it. You might just be the only person I know who only flies covert ops and scans every day. Anyway, faster scanning and specialization is not really what I have a problem with, but the Astrometrics skill change is. You don't see them? Dude, that's the whole point Seriously though. Blobs in 0.0 have coverts out. They're not with the blobs, because they're scouting ahead, but they're there. And if they're any good, you won't see them, even if you're looking for them. And while a lot of them don't bother with probes, many do. Going out without a prober is a drawback, but going out without a covops at all is suicide. not really, a regular frig can scout. It's likely you can get out of most camps in a frigate if you have a lot of frigate SP's and experience doing it, even if there is an interdictor. A sensor boosted huginn or lucid inty pilots severely decreases your chance of survival 8) Fortunately, either of these is rare
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.07.01 23:39:00 - [140] Originally by: Donna Darko Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Donna Darko OK, I've see 0.0 blobs [...] and most of them lacked covert ops. You don't see them? Dude, that's the whole point Seriously though. Blobs in 0.0 have coverts out. They're not with the blobs, because they're scouting ahead, but they're there. And if they're any good, you won't see them, even if you're looking for them. And while a lot of them don't bother with probes, many do. Going out without a prober is a drawback, but going out without a covops at all is suicide. Oh, come on, Joerd... Now you're just insulting my intelligence. I'm just replying to what you said...
Apply	Posted - 2006.07.02 02:07:00 - [141] I dont like the simple scan idea because of a.) those, who learnt to use probes effectively will lose their advantage and this is just an "another RL skill removed" thing, which i dont like b.) agent runners in below 0.5 will be hunted, busted, etc (there will be whinefest on forums) I like the simple scan idea because of the quicker scan makes battles more interesting, less safespotted fleets for hours. The idea of finding cloaked ships is a "LOL. Erm, rahter OMG. Bad.", but the interface is awesome.
Grae Corvidus	Posted - 2006.07.02 02:34:00 - [142] Ok, right upfront I'm very new to Eve so I don't know much about scanning at all. But regarding the scanning of cloaked ships, why not make it so that it's only really viable when using a combination of probes, similar to the triangulation idea? Balance it so that tho odds of successfully scanning a cloaked ship only come into play from the overlap/stacking of multiple probes... then it would require a more concentrated effort and some skill to pull it off. Given the limited understanding I have of the issue it seems like a reasonable compromise...
Halkin	Posted - 2006.07.02 05:25:00 - [143] Originally by: Maxlis Wow, scanning is taking a turn for the awesome. I'll be glad to see this in game :) I agree, in part. Scaning for cloaked ships is a bad idea imo, I just dont see why it should be possible. I understand from first hand experience that a cloaked covert can disrupt activity within a system but if you cant find a way to counter in then thats your fault. How can a covert be a covert if it can be found, I can see multiple inties warping in on cloaked ship spots running around like idiots. As funny as this would be to watch I dont think it should happen, reasons why are elsewhere in this thread. As for the the scanning improvements, i say gg.
Halkin	Posted - 2006.07.02 05:27:00 - [144] Originally by: Apply ...there will be whinefest on forums... just a normal day then
Kage Getsu	Posted - 2006.07.02 06:59:00 - [145] This looks awesome. _________________________________________________________
booh	Posted - 2006.07.02 07:22:00 - [146] Edited by: booh on 02/07/2006 07:22:52 Originally by: Halkin How can a covert be a covert if it can be found, I can see multiple inties warping in on cloaked ship spots running around like idiots. As funny as this would be to watch I dont think it should happen, reasons why are elsewhere in this thread. Have you ever tried this? It's not as easy as it sounds and the cloacked ship has very good chances to survive, specialy if it can warp while cloaked. You must distinguish between ships with Covert Ops Cloacking Device and those with Prototype Cloaking or Improved Cloaking devices. Then it all makes sense imo. Because there is no way you can catch a cloaked ship with COCD if the pilot is not AFK. Well, BS which cloack deserve to die
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.07.02 12:02:00 - [147] So you warp to your final result, which now has about 150km precision. That means that the cloaked target is anywhere within 150km bubble around you. Now tell me how do you find it, considering that it probably moves all the time. I think that even the cloaked BS has good chances to accelerate and warp when he notices company, provided that it is already aligned. Also .. if you can affect the other person's scanning result by launching additional scan probes within his probe's radius, that probably means that not only gang members can assist by launching high precision probes, but the prey can interfere with scanning by launching low precision probes .. sound like fun. Need to bring lots of scan probe launchers though.
Medici	Posted - 2006.07.02 12:38:00 - [148] Still have my concerns about Cov/Recon,I really would like to give this some hardcore testing on Sisi,and also see how it plays out on TQ. I'll take a stab though just for the record,and say that I think it will hamper Cov/Recon stealth. To be constructive and if you're reading this still Tomb,any chance you could enlighten us and expand on Semkhets post,and tell us just what kind of information a target will get back from using the Recon* probe,for Cov/Recon class ship that's moving constantly,(and not just sat zombie cloaking in 1 spot)?
DirtyHarry	Posted - 2006.07.02 13:31:00 - [149] Good stuff :) --------------- Havocide - Old School For Old Fools F-E Forum // RKK Forum
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2006.07.02 15:50:00 - [150] Originally by: booh Edited by: booh on 02/07/2006 07:22:52 Originally by: Halkin How can a covert be a covert if it can be found, I can see multiple inties warping in on cloaked ship spots running around like idiots. As funny as this would be to watch I dont think it should happen, reasons why are elsewhere in this thread. Have you ever tried this? It's not as easy as it sounds and the cloacked ship has very good chances to survive, specialy if it can warp while cloaked. You must distinguish between ships with Covert Ops Cloacking Device and those with Prototype Cloaking or Improved Cloaking devices. Then it all makes sense imo. Because there is no way you can catch a cloaked ship with COCD if the pilot is not AFK. Well, BS which cloack deserve to die these lines deserve to be read again qft its no about covert ops but any other ship to find cloaked ships is prolly the most curcial change in all of this Greetings Grim
Deakin Frost	Posted - 2006.07.02 16:57:00 - [151] As soon something shows up on overview, that gives you enough time to get out, since the incoming ships show up while still in warp and have to go into a state change before their UI gets responsive. Also, unless you're warp beaconing, there's no reason why you shouldn't be aligned to warp out when in a safespot.
Kaseki	Posted - 2006.07.09 04:12:00 - [152] Wow! Amazing possibilities! I'm a covy-ops pilot myself! But this could breathe new life into Friggies like the Merlin and Maulus! Not to mention if they upgrade DD sensors so they can actually hunt cloaked ships! Game on! I love hide-and-go-seek! Finally SIG vs. SENSOR scanning! Will ECM/ECCM affect this equation? (Easy detection less localization?) Additional sensor modules? Sensor linking? (Scanning works better with buddies!) SENSOR DRONES to aid scanning? SIG dampening modules? Will cloaked ships have reduced scanning ability? Ships moving while cloaked, and certainly warping should leave a "Wake" and be easier to spot! Will COVY OPS ship finally get a reduced SIG and bonus based on level? Stay tuned!
madaluap	Posted - 2006.07.09 15:12:00 - [153] Big hooray for easier finding of targets with probes and special scan equipment. Savespots are overpowered. Now the agro timer is gonna rock, damn loggers... But the normal scanner isnt changing right? Because i like the fact that i can find a target before dropping out of warp..and they cant . That shouldnt change imo, skills shouldnt take over expirience. _________________________________________________
Tow Truck	Posted - 2006.07.09 17:19:00 - [154] You folks really need to hurry with this stuff, if only getting it onto SiSi as fast as possible as sign of good means. You wouldn't want to witness the tantrum I threw after trying to find offgrid stashes visible on system scanner but probes giving me a hard time. Also, new system scanning needs to be able to scan for cargo/secure cans.
cheru	Posted - 2006.07.09 18:21:00 - [155] I don¦t know if it has been said yet, but as much as this: Quote: One of these groups is just ôShipsö - selecting that group scans for all ship types in the game, ... is useful, there¦s still a need to be able to scann for specific types of ships imo. Otherwise using scanprobes in empire wars/hub systems will be a pain at best with 500+ results per scan. ................................................. been there done that
Deakin Frost	Posted - 2006.07.09 19:29:00 - [156] Sorting by ship type...
Irrilian Eve University The Big Blue	Posted - 2006.07.16 13:26:00 - [157] A little late perhaps, but just a plea: please consider limited functionality stealth probes. Scan probes catch abandoned ships, the afk, those whom log out with an aggression timer and the inexperienced. Any competent gang has someone continuously checking the scanner for probes if theyÆre sitting at a ôsafespotö, ready to move to another safespot the instant one appears. The problem is that the amount of effort to find someone is disproportionate to how easy it is to nullify the hard work of a covert ops pilot by just remembering to hit a button every 30 seconds or so. Let me offer an example. A hostile force had jumped multiple carriers into our home system. Preferring a guerrilla style war rather than deploying a pos for the carriers to hide within its shields, they opted to sit cloaked a deep space safespots. The carriers would only uncloak to assign fighters for the short while the guerrilla force needed that extra fire power, as soon as their job was done, the gank over, theyÆd recall them and cloak again. After fighters appeared I would have to warp to one of my own deep safepots to deploy a deep space probe (to ensure that their covert ops wouldnÆt detect that I was actively hunting for the carriers). Id only have the time it took them to gank someone to get several readings and make use of some lateral thinking* to get into the general region where the carriers were. If I was unlucky it might take a couple of ganks. Next Id have to wait for subsequent occasions when a carrier was uncloaked, making use of the scanner, mid warp bookmarks and my constellation of deep safe spots to slowly manoeuvring myself in 3d space, closing down the distance from between us from 14Au to less than 50M km. Finally after a days of patient stalking I was ready, once the carriers were uncloaked to gank someone Id play my hand and drop 3 3au probes together and pray that they would be to preoccupied this time to notice. On the several times I got within 50M of a carriers deep safespots, the closest I got to one was seeing its fighters warp out after the carrier as it fled to another safespot, for all they had to do was to remember to hit the scan button every 30 seconds or so and as soon as they spotted a probe warp to another deep space safespot. Days of patient stalking, guile and cunning countered by just tapping a button every once and a while. So please can I have some TechII stealth probes, even if theyÆre limited and awkward to use? All the better, I enjoy the mental challenge of my role. * = all the information is available if you look for it, you just need to think about how to visualise it to make use of it. - - - The Big Blue, ôExodus realised.ö
Kaseki	Posted - 2006.07.29 14:17:00 - [158] Edited by: Kaseki on 29/07/2006 14:20:43 Maybe late, but I hope TomB sees this... High slot module required to SCAN for CLOAKED ship... Fidelity is negotiable.
Laendra	Posted - 2006.08.03 10:43:00 - [159] Originally by: TomB [list=1] Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person Hmmm, just a thought...you have a "nearly" unlimited range probe launched in a system...you have to wait for the damn thing to time out before you launch something with more accuracy???? That is gonna suckle, unless the "inaccuracy" is a lot different than it is now...I could see limiting probes of identical types, but not differing accuracy. Does range from the scan probe have any bearing on strength of signal? So, if I launch a probe and the target is only 10au away, shouldn't the probe be better at detecting (more accurate and better signal strength) it than if it were 200au away? -------------------
aeti	Posted - 2006.08.03 11:54:00 - [160] Originally by: Laendra Originally by: TomB [list=1] Probes can not be deployed within scan radius of another probe owned by the same person Hmmm, just a thought...you have a "nearly" unlimited range probe launched in a system...you have to wait for the damn thing to time out before you launch something with more accuracy???? smartbombs ;)
Beastiality	Posted - 2006.11.26 14:47:00 - [161] Anyone know if I'm going to need Astro 5 to use all the new probes or if I should just train something else?
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.26 15:12:00 - [162] Originally by: Beastiality Anyone know if I'm going to need Astro 5 to use all the new probes or if I should just train something else? Necro... But I'll still answer your question. Yes all the new probes of the Exploration system in EVE requires Astrometrics Level 5. All the old probes keep their current skill requirement. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.11.27 22:31:00 - [163] i dont believe anyone has got this to work yet to cloaked ships will still annoy the living hell out of us

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