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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
273
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
I'm not even sure what i find more outrageous, the change itself or the fact that 6 days before the patch going live, not a single dev answered those complaints.
Instead only a CSM member who just happens to be industrialist (i.e. the ONLY group not suffering from that change) chimes in with stupid arguments. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
31
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:31:00 -
[62] - Quote
Amari Jackson wrote:"What about time wasted???" - well, hopefully you got some usage out of it while it was more relevant, and after the changes, hopefully you'll get some usage out of the new benefits.
Training the learning skills was put to use, as well, when you had it. The skills were removed, and SP was refunded.
Amari Jackson wrote: "What about the SP wasted???" - well, CCP doesn't refund skill points for things that are still in game and can still be useful. And if you are clever about it, you should be able to make more isk.
That's the kicker: the skill doesn't exist any more. Previously, the skill gave a significant bonus to materials. That skill was removed. The new skill, Advanced Industry, has a very small bonus to time. They're completely different skills with a completely different purpose.
Amari Jackson wrote:And if you are clever about it, you should be able to make more isk. It's not about being clever, it's about functionality. I'm a small-time manufacturer. I enjoy doing it, but not so much that I want to make a career of it in EvE. It's a for-fun side-job that I only do occasionally, once I've built up enough materials from random collection or reprocessing. Even if I wanted to become a hard-core manufacturer, it would be impossible for me to keep my lines going 24/7 due to my job, which is what I would have to do in order to make use of this new skill.
Prior to Crius, the materials reduction was critical if you wanted to turn even a small profit on items. Post-Crius, a very small reduction in time won't be, so much so that I would have never put the SP into the skill (remember, this is 768,000 SP). |
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
374
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
Mardris Fol wrote:Unfortunately there is far too much precedence for this sort of change.
Two cases:
Scanning skills - 50% of benefit moved from the advanced skill to the base skill. No change over all but I wouldn't have spent months getting the final level of those skills for half the benefit.
Drones - 50% of Interfacing bonus removed and built in to base stats. No change over all and I would still take that but the principle is that same. The benefit of the reduced skills over the baseline is much reduced.
In this case I took the skill because although it was expensive it was 'essential' and now those skill points are essentially wasted. There's no change over all but I don't do enough manufacturing to be affected about 1% or 2% faster production (for level 4/5) and those skill points are a complete waste for me now.
There are some business models where increased volume means increased profit but that's just the mass producers.
Bad analogy. With the scanning skills, you also unlock a T2 module that adds extra value to the same attribute. With the drone skills, the exact same attribute was being adjusted, not replaced with an attribute that is certifiably worthless to a great many pilots (myself included).
This is undeniably the wholesale removal of one skill, because the underlying reason for the skill was removed by CCP, and the addition of a new skill. If CCP removed fighter bombers from the game for balance reasons, players would expect a refund . . . Not for CCP to change the name of the skill to "Drone Shield Recharge" and end up with a skill that increases the recharge rate of your light drones' shields by 20% at level V.
I am not an alt of Chribba. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
561
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:37:00 -
[64] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:I'm not even sure what i find more outrageous, the change itself or the fact that 6 days before the patch going live, not a single dev answered those complaints.
Instead only a CSM member who just happens to be industrialist (i.e. the ONLY group not suffering from that change) chimes in with stupid arguments. this change ONLY affects industrialists not everyone but |
Amari Jackson
Aideron Robotics
10
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:38:00 -
[65] - Quote
Now that I think about it...why am i trying to convince my competition this is a good change?
CCP! REFUND SP NOW!!!!! |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3682
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:41:00 -
[66] - Quote
Trademaster Rob wrote:mynnna wrote:5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions. This actually is the second iteration and I do hope and in fact will be encouraging CCP to revisit it because the original change was more interesting, but let's drop the hyperbole and not make out like it's a waste, shall we? Bam Stroker wrote:I'm not even an industrialist but I know I would feel ripped off by this change. As has been covered in the thread already it's one thing to fiddle with the numbers while leaving the skill's purpose intact but it's another thing to change it into a different skill entirely.
Come Crius CCP should just delete the ME skill, refund the SP and seed the books for the new TE skill then let the players decide if they want to re-invest that SP into the new skill or allocate it elsewhere. If they did this, then when and if they do change the skill into something else again, all the same people would be back here whining about CCP having cheated them out of a skill This is the most terrible response I ever heard from a csm member. Speculation.. tisk tisk. It's plain and simple. Skill A got removed, Skill B got added. Refund for skill A, let people decide if they want to train skill B. That's it. I know CCP can do this.
Oh, what's that? You don't like speculation? Okay, facts it is then This has never happened, I'll eat my hat if it does happen, and this thread is full of whiners. But whiners or not I will still be nudging CCP to revisit the skill as I said, because the original change was more interesting, even though it had much of the same qualities that made them change ME in the first place. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Amari Jackson
Aideron Robotics
10
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:42:00 -
[67] - Quote
Summer Isle wrote:Amari Jackson wrote:"What about time wasted???" - well, hopefully you got some usage out of it while it was more relevant, and after the changes, hopefully you'll get some usage out of the new benefits. Training the learning skills was put to use, as well, when you had it. The skills were removed, and SP was refunded. Amari Jackson wrote: "What about the SP wasted???" - well, CCP doesn't refund skill points for things that are still in game and can still be useful. And if you are clever about it, you should be able to make more isk.
That's the kicker: the skill doesn't exist any more. Previously, the skill gave a significant bonus to materials. That skill was removed. The new skill, Advanced Industry, has a very small bonus to time. They're completely different skills with a completely different purpose.
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I think of it as a skill change. Others see it as a removal and addition. I can see it both ways. |
Gabriel Quill
The Majestic Duck
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
I can understand the argument to keep jimmies in order, but I don't understand what the argument is against refunding the SP. If this new skill is worth it then people will use those SP toward training it. There's no downside to refunding the SP, and doing so makes this issue go away. |
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:49:00 -
[69] - Quote
It's a change, but it's changing a very valuable skill to an indirectly related and arguably not very valuable skill.
If I do round the clock production, which I generally don't as I do T2 modules, I would save 1.5 days per month with the 5% time reduction, all other factors being equal.
However since this is a global savings (curren tproducers have it traind to 5, future producers maybe 3), the effect on extra income is pretty meh. Because everyone is producing at the same rate more or less, the amount earned from that production is going to normalize at market. If everyone is building faster, then no one is.
I'd say just remove this skill entirely and refund the SP. I can't think of a less exciting skill to max out. Unless you count the new 'refining skills' where I folks get to sit on the edge of their seat waiting for 'Veldspar 5' to complete.
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3682
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:50:00 -
[70] - Quote
Gabriel Quill wrote:I can understand the argument to keep jimmies in order, but I don't understand what the argument is against refunding the SP. If this new skill is worth it then people will use those SP toward training it. There's no downside to refunding the SP, and doing so makes this issue go away.
We'd get ten times as many threads demanding refunds for every little skill change as we already do if CCP set the precedent; ISD would go mad from cleaning it all up and just delete the forums instead.
Actually, maybe that's an upside...
e:
Throwaway Sam Atild wrote: However since this is a global savings (curren tproducers have it traind to 5, future producers maybe 3), the effect on extra income is pretty meh. Because everyone is producing at the same rate more or less, the amount earned from that production is going to normalize at market. If everyone is building faster, then no one is.
Whiners take note, this is a much better refutation of "5% build time is still useful" than the "no your argument is bad and poopy" that was posted a little earlier. Hi-five to this guy. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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afkboss
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:53:00 -
[71] - Quote
If CCP remove a skill they need to refund the skillpoints, not just replace it with something completely fkn useless. |
Denidil
The Scope Gallente Federation
632
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 12:59:00 -
[72] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Gabriel Quill wrote:I can understand the argument to keep jimmies in order, but I don't understand what the argument is against refunding the SP. If this new skill is worth it then people will use those SP toward training it. There's no downside to refunding the SP, and doing so makes this issue go away. We'd get ten times as many threads demanding refunds for every little skill change as we already do if CCP set the precedent; ISD would go mad from cleaning it all up and just delete the forums instead. Actually, maybe that's an upside... e: Throwaway Sam Atild wrote: However since this is a global savings (curren tproducers have it traind to 5, future producers maybe 3), the effect on extra income is pretty meh. Because everyone is producing at the same rate more or less, the amount earned from that production is going to normalize at market. If everyone is building faster, then no one is.
Whiners take note, this is a much better refutation of "5% build time is still useful" than the "no your argument is bad and poopy" that was posted a little earlier. Hi-five to this guy.
CCP Has refunded skills before, and you know it. Don't play stupid, we know you're not.
Changing it from 5% material waste reduction to 1% time reduction per skill level is pretty BS. Since they removed Material Waste, why don't we change it to a 5% reduction in production line costs per level? That way it stays a competitive (cost) advantage of the same nature it is now (if a lower magnitude one).
Nobody stacks jobs enough for 5% time bonus to be noticable outside of cap production. Making it save money on facility costs makes way more sense and benefits everyone who trained it. Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1473
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:05:00 -
[73] - Quote
and nothing of value was lost GRRR Goons |
RavenNyx
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
13
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:07:00 -
[74] - Quote
mynnna wrote:[...] This has never happened, I'll eat my hat if it does happen, and this thread is full of whiners. [...] Whiners? I see alot of discontent capsuleers that are voicing their concerns and offering a solution, but I wouldn't call them whiners for that. This is (sorta') constructive criticism with the odd overreaction - no reason for CSM member to start name-calling :)
mynnna wrote:[...] But whiners or not I will still be nudging CCP to revisit the skill as I said [...] Thank you :) |
Pie Napple
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
7
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:07:00 -
[75] - Quote
I have nothing against the new skill, but i agree that is not worth the train. Its simply too much sp for what it does.
I would prefer if the new skill was changed from a x3 skill to a x2 or even x1 skill, everyone should get the new skill at the same level as the old and the extra sp refunded.
That way there wont be as much wasted sp and no one have to go out and buy new skillbooks. |
Denidil
The Scope Gallente Federation
632
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:10:00 -
[76] - Quote
Pie Napple wrote:I have nothing against the new skill, but i agree that is not worth the train. Its simply too much sp for what it does.
I would prefer if the new skill was changed from a x3 skill to a x2 or even x1 skill, everyone should get the new skill at the same level as the old and the extra sp refunded.
That way there wont be as much wasted sp and no one have to go out and buy new skillbooks.
that is also a perfectly viable option Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
31
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:13:00 -
[77] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Throwaway Sam Atild wrote: However since this is a global savings (curren tproducers have it traind to 5, future producers maybe 3), the effect on extra income is pretty meh. Because everyone is producing at the same rate more or less, the amount earned from that production is going to normalize at market. If everyone is building faster, then no one is.
Whiners take note, this is a much better refutation of "5% build time is still useful" than the "no your argument is bad and poopy" that was posted a little earlier. Hi-five to this guy. How about the fact that it really isn't useful to everyone who had Material Efficiency skilled up?
I do manufacturing once a week, at most, from materials I gain through reprocessing. I generally only make things that I use myself, and my lines will run for four to six hours. For someone like me, the reduction in materials in a case like this was absolutely worth it, as otherwise, it would have been better to reprocess the junk and sell the materials, then buy what I wanted from the market.
With the new / changed skill, my six-hour lines would see a savings of 18 minutes. Considering that the manufacturing lines are generally the last thing I do before heading out for the night, 768,000 SP is absolutely not worth it to me to save three minutes per hour when I'll most likely be asleep when they finish (and even if I were online, I wouldn't have the materials to restart them).
Honestly, I'd much rather get the SP back and put it into my reprocessing skills, since those are changing, as well (and, in my case, once I have those maxed out for the upcoming changes, I'll actually be getting more converted-ISK-value than I was previously). |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3682
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:18:00 -
[78] - Quote
RavenNyx wrote:mynnna wrote:[...] This has never happened, I'll eat my hat if it does happen, and this thread is full of whiners. [...] Whiners? I see alot of discontent capsuleers that are voicing their concerns and offering a solution, but I wouldn't call them whiners for that. This is (sorta') constructive criticism with the odd overreaction - no reason for CSM member to start name-calling :) Thank you :) Yeah you're giving most of the people in this thread far more credit than they deserve. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Doug Dannger
Department of Public Works
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:25:00 -
[79] - Quote
At this point I don't care. They're taking a working established system their players have spent 1000s of hours iterating upon and making tools to share and use, and dumping it all on its head just to change it for the sake of changing it.
Making my skills useless is just the icing on the cake and adding insult to injury. |
Axe Coldon
46
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:29:00 -
[80] - Quote
I vote for a refund also. We are getting screwed enough on this change..don't add this to the list. _________________________________________________________________________________________________ No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced. |
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Manfred Hideous
TOHOKU 9.0
71
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:31:00 -
[81] - Quote
I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if a dev has responded.
I don't have the time to treat eve as another job but I do produce stuff on a small scale via an alt. I see a real benefit when producing something if I have a skill that reduces the materials needed for the job. I do NOT receive benefit when I have jobs completing 5% faster.
Please refund the SP and allow people to buy this skill book. This would give the no-lifers a benefit they really want and will allow the rest of us to find another home for the orphaned SP. |
RavenNyx
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
13
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:34:00 -
[82] - Quote
mynnna wrote:RavenNyx wrote:mynnna wrote:[...] This has never happened, I'll eat my hat if it does happen, and this thread is full of whiners. [...] Whiners? I see alot of discontent capsuleers that are voicing their concerns and offering a solution, but I wouldn't call them whiners for that. This is (sorta') constructive criticism with the odd overreaction - no reason for CSM member to start name-calling :) Thank you :) Yeah you're giving most of the people in this thread far more credit than they deserve. You're probably right. I've been away for a while (last time I visited the forums, they looked quite different). The last couple of threads I can remember reading from back then was along the lines of "omfg fix sov you cccp noobs!!1", or just "crime&punishment". These are well-written and constructive posts in comparison to what I remember... |
Erich Shephard
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:46:00 -
[83] - Quote
I'll try to be brief. I am a relatively new player, only in-game since October, 2013, and I have selected Industry with a couple alts as my primary ISK-making endeavor.
I feel like the change to the Material Efficiency skill, moving it from a material to a time efficiency effect, has virtually eliminated its value to me. I've worked for months training science and production skills, developing spreadsheets and bookmarked trade routes through hostile space, readying myself for running a T2 production and distribution line. Since I am so new, I don't have the connections yet to be part of a larger industrial network, and am striking it out on my own with myself, a couple alts, and a friend or two. I had no intention of trying to compete with the big boys in Jita or even Hek, nor am I selling capital components or T3 subsystems. I don't have the skills, networks, or knowledge for that kind of thing yet. But I am a hell of a lot more prepared and advanced than those noobs flipping T1 EANMs in Hek.
Except now I'm not. My Material Efficiency V skill no longer provides me any advantage (T2 modules and drones sold in markets that don't have the demand to accept 5% more without a 5% drop in prices). Access to copy and research slots is now (well, not now, but soon) blown wide open. Sure, I have the advantage of knowing to use buy orders, and I get some boost in invention chance, but the availability of copy/research slots and the Material Efficiency skill were really the only two things differentiating me from a month-old toon. I still have a lot that separates me from a seasoned T3 industrialist or a ship builder, but it seems like all the work that separated me from a T1 module builder has been for nothing.
I can see why the move from Material Efficiency to Advanced Industry would be worthwhile for ship builders and others in low-volume high margin production, but at the other end, it isn't worthwhile, and won't be for quite some time. All things being equal, I'd rather have the old barrier to competition back. Since that is not going to be an option, the skillpoints will be fine too. I'll probably end up training Advanced Industry V anyway, but in 2-3 years when I have an incentive to. Until then, I can think of a dozen skills I'd train first. |
Aloh
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Mordus Angels
6
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:55:00 -
[84] - Quote
Just my .02 isk
Respectfully to the CSM member the bonus you state as a replacement advantage only matters if you have your character building constantly. If you build to need or to replace losses it has zero effect on your bottom line. The numbers of characters that will see an actual benefit here will be few.
My take on this is that CCP sees training time as income. Refunding skill points would then be reducing possible income. It is my opinion they don't want to do that.
To the people that want skill refunds, (again my opinion ) not going to happen. Look at the leadership skills. I think it was race relations, the skill allowed you to have more members in your corp that were not the same race as you are. They nuked it just like they are nuking this one. Instead of refunding the skill points they changed it into a BS skill for dealing with concord agents or something like that.
You didn't get much warning that one was coming either.
I answered CCPs industry changes survey when they put it out, it seems I was in the minority. I have unsubbed my industry toon and unless I see that I am missing the point of the changes the only activity that account will have will be to plex the account and move him next door to hisec and sell off the ships and items he used for industry. Other then one break this is the first time since 2007 he has not been training.
It is a shame he has every industry skill in the game and the only things he can not build right now is a titan or the last level of a outpost upgrade. 90 odd million skill points is just too much for a cyno alt.... |
H3llHound
Koshaku Tactical Narcotics Team
29
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 13:55:00 -
[85] - Quote
Having Mat. Eff. at 5 never gave you a benefit but rather eliminated a penalty. Every serious producer has it at 5 already otherwise he couldnt compete. I also dont get why suddenly everyone is suprised about the change...it was outlined in the indy-devblog pack, 2 months ago, that the skill would be changed to something less powerful (devblogs said reduction in installation costs).
In its current iteration Mat. Eff. is a too powerful skill as was Drone interfacing. |
Claudius Dethahal
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 14:01:00 -
[86] - Quote
It's not just that it's a reduction in power, the change also only benefits a subset of producers.
To me the lack of communication seems to indicate that CCP knew it was a pretty unfair trade. |
Trademaster Rob
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 14:05:00 -
[87] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Trademaster Rob wrote:mynnna wrote:5% faster building is 5% more isk per time, 5% faster that you can pivot and make something else based on changing market conditions. This actually is the second iteration and I do hope and in fact will be encouraging CCP to revisit it because the original change was more interesting, but let's drop the hyperbole and not make out like it's a waste, shall we? Bam Stroker wrote:I'm not even an industrialist but I know I would feel ripped off by this change. As has been covered in the thread already it's one thing to fiddle with the numbers while leaving the skill's purpose intact but it's another thing to change it into a different skill entirely.
Come Crius CCP should just delete the ME skill, refund the SP and seed the books for the new TE skill then let the players decide if they want to re-invest that SP into the new skill or allocate it elsewhere. If they did this, then when and if they do change the skill into something else again, all the same people would be back here whining about CCP having cheated them out of a skill This is the most terrible response I ever heard from a csm member. Speculation.. tisk tisk. It's plain and simple. Skill A got removed, Skill B got added. Refund for skill A, let people decide if they want to train skill B. That's it. I know CCP can do this. Oh, what's that? You don't like speculation? Okay, facts it is then This has never happened, I'll eat my hat if it does happen, and this thread is full of whiners. But whiners or not I will still be nudging CCP to revisit the skill as I said, because the original change was more interesting, even though it had much of the same qualities that made them change ME in the first place.
So you want this revisited before Crius? Or will they keep this and def change it after crius expansion? Because then speculation it's not but happen it will never (or at least not soon) Also if this happens maybe CCP should wait with the expansion, think about the consequences it has, act accordingly, have a role-out plan and then, but only then release the new expansion. |
Kage Kugisa
SpyderTech Ltd.
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 14:10:00 -
[88] - Quote
First forum post ever, I just wanted to add that I too trained ME to V because it was required, and it was a long train. The replacement skill seems almost certain to bar nearly no one from effectively competing with me. Perhaps it will be substituted as a prereq where ME V was before? That would give individuals who trained this the leg up they thought they were investing in. |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
32
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 14:16:00 -
[89] - Quote
H3llHound wrote:Having Mat. Eff. at 5 never gave you a benefit but rather eliminated a penalty. Every serious producer has it at 5 already otherwise he couldnt compete. I also dont get why suddenly everyone is suprised about the change...it was outlined in the indy-devblog pack, 2 months ago, that the skill would be changed to something less powerful (devblogs said reduction in installation costs).
In its current iteration Mat. Eff. is a too powerful skill as was Drone interfacing. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with it being removed. but rather that our SP is being converted into a skill that isn't useful to an apparently-large number of people.
I keep using myself as an example, but it's only because I know what my play-time is like: I manufacture things I can put to use, but only do so from reprocessed materials. I usually do my runs at the end of the week, and set them up just before leaving for the night. I will have four or five manufacturing lines that run for four to six hours, and then sit idle until the next week.
Previously, a reduction in installation costs would have been fine. Something like that would still be a benefit to small-time manufacturers. This change, though, reducing manufacturing time by 5%, will reduce my longest manufacturing lines (about six hours) by 18 minutes.
I'm usually asleep when my lines stop, and even if I were awake, I wouldn't be putting anything else on them until the next week, once I had more materials from reprocessing junk loot.
Material Efficiency V was useful to me because it was a direct reduction in the cost of what I do, regardless as to whether it was a "benefit" or the "elimination of a penalty." Advanced Industry is useless to me because I don't keep my lines going 24/7. The skill is 768,000 SP. That's not an insignificant investment, especially considering it saves 72 minutes per day (per line) at level V. If you have any more down-time on a line than that, you've wasted the skill's benefit for that line on that day.
If the skill reduced the installation cost, I would be perfectly happy with it. A time reduction? I would have to turn my for-personal-use side-job in EvE into a full-time primary job to make use of it. I don't want to do that, and wouldn't have trained the skill if it had been like this in the beginning. |
Myxx
754
|
Posted - 2014.07.16 14:17:00 -
[90] - Quote
I have material efficiency to 5, on two characters. The skill you are proposing to replace it with does not do anything that I need it to do. Like others have said before me, I would caution you *not* to make this change, CCP. |
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