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Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
17
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Posted - 2011.11.21 04:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Don Pellegrino wrote:No. There's a reason why highly competitive games have no "stunning" mechanics. It removes a huge part of the player skill/experience influence and instead can make fights depend on the outcome of a random numbers generator.
This game NEEDS a mechanic to neutralize high value targets, but ECM (eve's stunning) is a terrible way to do it. It also scales terribly, a Falcon in a 5v5 can easily keep 3/5 enemy targets permajammed while in large battles ECM is close to useless.
Try (20 scorps + 80 tempest) vs 100 tempest and see who wins :) |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
364
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Posted - 2011.11.21 05:07:00 -
[32] - Quote
Other ewar weakens ships, while ECM completely disables them. Countering the ewar of other races gives your ship benefits, such as increased lock range or a capacitor booster. ECCM doesn't improve your ship.
Here's a thought. Which ship is more useful in a fleet fight? a) A Maelstrom which is neuted, tracking disrupted, sensor dampened, scrammed, webbed and target painted b) A jammed Maelstrom
Well, a) could attack close range targets, and alpha a few mid-range enemies. However, b) can do nothing.
Maelstrom a) has 3 ewar ships on it. Maelstrom b) has 1 ewar ships on it.
ECM needs fixing. |
OT Smithers
Buccaneer's Den
22
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Posted - 2011.11.21 06:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
I agree that it sucks to be jammed. It sucks enough that pretty much every other PvP game out there has all but done away with this as a mechanic.
However...
Right now Caldari pilots have the Drake, Tengu (if they have rich blood), and ECM boats. Further, ECM boats give up everything else to do what they do, including DPS and tanking. Where other recons, for example, are combat ships, the Falcon is exclusively a support ship.
I would be perfectly happy to see ECM removed from the game if it meant a complete reworking of the Caldari ship and weapon lineup. I doubt that will happen.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
1197
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Posted - 2011.11.21 07:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
It's a bad mechanic and it should be replaced as soon as someone can come up with something better.
2 things to bear in mind when thinking up a replacement
(1) Caldari don't have any secondary E-war specialisation like the other 3 races have. (2) They're supposed to be the E-war specialists, and they should have the best and most effective E-war
Most people seem to come up with alternative ideas for ECM along the lines of "sends a stern note to the target's mother asking her to get him to knock it off" or "shouts 'Hey you kids get off my lawn!'". Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Hannibal Ord
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
50
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Posted - 2011.11.21 07:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
The Offerer wrote:KFenn wrote:The Offerer wrote:Except Target painting is not a primary e-war for any race. So what about all the bonused Minmatar hulls? That's a secondary racial E-war for Minmatar. A secondary E-war is something unknown to Caldari. Minmatar: Web, TP Amarr: Neut, TD Gallente: SD, warp disruptor range Caldari: ECM
Quoting this to show just how much this is fail. |
Vachir Khan
TriSeq Defence Group
44
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Posted - 2011.11.21 08:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
ECM in and of itself is fine but 14+ jam str on a Falcon is too much. Lowering BB and scorp to something like 6.5-7 and Falcon to 10 would be a lot better. It would still dominate in a 1v1+falcon scenario but you can't stop that anyway. In smaller gangs they wouldn't have the fight changing capability they have now. Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude. |
de votso
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
0
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Posted - 2011.11.21 08:36:00 -
[37] - Quote
The Offerer wrote:KFenn wrote:The Offerer wrote:Except Target painting is not a primary e-war for any race. So what about all the bonused Minmatar hulls? That's a secondary racial E-war for Minmatar. A secondary E-war is something unknown to Caldari. Minmatar: Web, TP Amarr: Neut, TD Gallente: SD, warp disruptor range Caldari: ECM This!
Falcons are girly doomsday devices and the world of eve will be a better place when ECM is given a stacking penalty and affects only the maximum number targets the victim's ships can lock back. also give Caldari EW boats a secondary bonus to missile launcher disruption (Explosion velocity/Radius or such). |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
33
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Posted - 2011.11.21 08:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
mkint wrote:To understand how awful it is consider how it compares to other ewar. No other ewar can completely remove someone from a fight. No other ewar has a permajam. Ecm isn't the iwin button it used to be but it is still a sh!t mechanic.
Oddly enough I recall fitting 4 damps on a Myrm JUST to f over a guy that I knew was going to bring a scorpion to the party.
He got no jams, mission accomplished.....mainly because I doubt he could target more than 30km. |
Written Word
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
139
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Posted - 2011.11.21 09:02:00 -
[39] - Quote
Its not very balanced for small scale warfare, like less than 5 people per side.
As gang sizes increases however, its just another interesting wrinkle as well as being the only true counter to enemy logistics. |
Dibsi Dei
Salamyhkaisten kilta
2
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Posted - 2011.11.21 09:22:00 -
[40] - Quote
Written Word wrote:Its not very balanced for small scale warfare, like less than 5 people per side.
As gang sizes increases however, its just another interesting wrinkle as well as being the only true counter to enemy logistics. ECM could use a rework as an anti-logistics weapon. That way it wouldn't completely shut down small scale battles. |
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Florestan Bronstein
The Waterworks
175
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Posted - 2011.11.21 09:35:00 -
[41] - Quote
ECM is fine imo.
But the Blackbird is too strong compared to the Kitsune (given their relative price points). |
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
2
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Posted - 2011.11.21 10:05:00 -
[42] - Quote
ECM is not OK, but over time i have seen incredibly simple and effective changes proposed, some that i can recall:
* being jammed would reduce targets locked to 1 not 0 (or have a script for jamming to 0, but with really short optimal) * making race-specific ECM race-exclusive, i.e ladar jammer would have a 0% chance to jam magnetometric. * completely removing the dice rolls.. say if ecm>sensor there is an effect, otherwise not. * keeping dice rolls but giving the jammer some additinal penatly for failing. * a damp nerf style script overhaul that makes users choose between lower strength at high optimal VS high strength but in falloff. etc |
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2011.11.21 10:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
ECM is fine at the moment.
Recons are powerful ships and can be worked in many different field of play.
Curse: One of the most versitile ships in the game, capable of nueting at an impressive 80KM it still has that osh*t effect on me when I see on land on grid.
Huggin: Great for camps, shuts down any speed you might of had.
Lachesis: Instalocking fool.
Rook: Decent combat ship. Applying ECM with ok dps, works best at longer ranges.
Pilgrim: I love to solo hunt in this, but it is quite weak in many reguards
Rapier: Frigate killer, amazing solo ship.
Arazu: Can you say Hotdrop...
Falcon: Great small gang support ship. Useless in fleet fights.
Recons go great in gangs, and order of priority is Recons>Logi>DPS, and out of that list is Falcon>Rook>Curse>Rapier>anything else>Pilgrim. This outlines that people hate being jammed, but also hate being nueted.
EWAR as a whole needs to be addressed and balanced, it's not a priority though. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1584
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Posted - 2011.11.21 10:29:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ottersmacker wrote:* completely removing the dice rolls.. say if ecm>sensor there is an effect, otherwise not. * keeping dice rolls but giving the jammer some additinal penatly for failing. Those two are kind of connected to what ECM currently does, and it's hard to remove them without giving it some completely different functionality.
One thing that sets ECM apart from the other ewar types is its binary nature, which is a direct result of what it's affecting: you can either be locked on or not, so ECM can only really change your state from one to the other. With TDs or damps or even painting, what you're doing is altering some key variable along a sliding scale: you make gun tracking and optimal relatively lower than it was; you make sensors relatively weaker and shorter-ranged; you make ships relatively larger. With ECM, there is no such scale for the attribute it affects: it's on or off, and nothing in-between.
That's why the effects are randomised all the way, and not just in falloff: to make a statistical sliding scale out of those binary values. If you want to remove the random element, you also have to either figure out a way to make GÇ£being locked onGÇ¥ not be a binary state so you can make relative adjustments, or you need to make it affect something else that already has a more granular scale.
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Willl Adama
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
41
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Posted - 2011.11.21 13:07:00 -
[45] - Quote
No, I think it is a bad game mechanic.
It's not that I think it is too powerful or too hard to beat, it is simply that it is a terribly frustrating mechanic to be up against, thus removing the fun.
One of the reasons for this, I think, is that it is basically an all or nothing disable, based on randomness to a large degree. Either, you are completely unaffected, or you are 100% disabled. All other EWAR forms only partially disables you, but do so 100% of the time (when applied). If you are webbed you move at a percentage of your speed, if you are tracking disrupted you lose a percentage of your tracking/range, and so on. Latest Video:-á-á Kill Will: Volume 4 |
Valhallas
New Eden Robotics
12
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Posted - 2011.11.21 13:46:00 -
[46] - Quote
I think you should be able to target optically when jammed.
ECM screws up your electronics, It should not stop you rotating your guns to a chosen angle and firing them.
If I am sitting 800m from a stationary Nyx in a gunboat It would be a rather difficult target to miss if aiming optically.
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Valhallas
New Eden Robotics
12
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Posted - 2011.11.21 13:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
Double post |
Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:12:00 -
[48] - Quote
The point of a game to to engage a player in interacting with the game.
ECM removes a massive part of interaction with the game.
Therefore ECM is a bad game mechanic. |
Minigin
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
i will put my 2 cents in on this without saying whether i approve of them or not, but i think it will become obvious what i feel should be done to the mechanic by the end of this summary of my views.
my first view of ecm is that it has very little place in large scale conflicts. we have seen groups attempt to employ it as a tactic: i refer to the northern coalition employing mass scorps fit with racial jams (according to enemy gang comps) typcially to interfere with rep chains.
while in theory this tactic is viable, in practice its almost impossible to pull off. there are a host of problems including but not limited to coordination of jams, the fragility of the ships they are typically fit on and the fact that 40 extra sets of hard hitting guns will usually project the same kind of force but with more certainty.
an idea that has been toyed with is fitting them on regular fleet ships, however i suspect similar problems would be encountered and again there is more reliance on dice rolling than player skill or command decisions (which i feel should be the way pvp in any game is decided)
the issue im trying to get at here, is that in these massive scale fights, brining more ewar is not necessarily going to win anything for you, typcially these mass number setups depend on who is slightly more coordinated (or brought way more people to the battle) so it comes down to these two things more than what ships you bring. for an example of this we saw band of brothers take a 200 man assault frig fleet up against 150 assorted ships and mop the floor with them back in tribute old days. so in this scale of fighting where people are dumping more and more people into systems just to mass numbers, the effectiveness of ecm gets weaker the more people rock up (on both sides)
the viability of ecm in small gangs is almost the inverse of this. ecm inclusion into an already stronger fleet almost completely mitigates the need for competence. the more people you bring to fight smaller numbers (and the more ecm you bring) the stronger it gets. because the probability of successful jams becomes insanely high. as it is, ecm drones are almost required on nearly every class of ship. their ability to break locks over a prolonged time and allow people escapes or easy kills (and again their exponentially increasing effectiveness in numbers) serves to again promote risk adverse pvp in eve.
if there were no smartbombs i would say ecm drones are the single most game breaking item in eve (even so they are still up there in terms of over poweredness)
something important to note is the relation of the strength of ecm to other ewars. while i personally believe the other ewar drones have their place and uses (despite no one else giving a **** about them) however i would be a fool to suggest they are even in the same league as ecm drones. especially in increasing numbers. again its the nature of the mechanic being chance (and its increasing frequency with greater numbers) that makes ecm a much more attractive option. i feel the same relates to the modular versions.
the last point i want to make relates to the recon class ecm boat. the fact that falcons can warp cloaked essentially means that despite how strong they already may be, there is no way for a pvper or fc to know (perhaps before its too late) if there is a falcon or 2 or 10 in the area. are pvpers just meant to assume the worst in every situation? i am sure particularly in solo pvp it is difficult enough to try fighting 1 falcon and a flight of jam drones, but with its increasing popularity will there at all be a place for solo pvp in the game? or has this time already been eclipsed???? it makes it more a game of chance (will i engage wont i... is there a falcon hiding here) rather than again... relying on skill and knowledge (ok i know that curse will likely have 2 med neuts... can my tank hold till i down a couple of people etc) and letting that be one of the core components.
while sure you can say a good pvper can snuff out where a falcon might be... there really is no way of telling what might be cloaked and ready (a bomber or perhaps a rapier or an arazu... ANYTHING BUT A MOTHER ****ING FALCON!!!!)
(as a closing point, i would like to point out the probability of a first time jam on most bcs if you are in a falcon and activate all your jams on them is around 80-90% in a competent pilots falcon. this seems... very high. and once you start cycling them after your first jam... **** just starts to get silly.) so solo pvpers need to fit to be very very resistant to ecm and then still it will come down to pure luck.
so tl;dr
ecm is not viable in larger scale combat.
ecm in smaller scale combat is very VERY strong and it seems to promote more of its use rather than finding a happy balance. |
Mukutep
Capital Industries Research And Development Fidelas Constans
6
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
Yes, it is fine like it is IMO |
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Zowie Powers
Hole in the wall
14
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:23:00 -
[51] - Quote
ECM offer the weak and womanlike a chance to feel superior and powerful, therefore we will always have to tolerate a numerous mob who wish to see it continue as long as CCP can make payroll each month.
Maybe one day CCP will have a DEVS ONLY thread where they discuss ways to change it and brook no outside interference, that might be the only way the ECM fans get to understand why it's a terrible mechanic. |
Ariane VoxDei
19
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
ECM is horrible as is.
No reliable counter. Fit some ECCM and *maybe* you wont be jammed. Weigh that against fitting more buffer or whatever.
Range. ECM can be applied from too far away. Similar can be said for damps. Should be brought into the other ewar range, that is, tackle/neut range. Want to gamble with a icantloose button, you have to be taking appropriate risk = the risk that if your ecm does not succed, you are now caught. If you want to get serious about it, also make activating a ECM shortcycle any running mwd (on the ecmboat that is)
Jamcycle is too long, it would still be plenty devastating if the cycle was cut in half (and capuse per cycles adjusted accordingly).
Cant really be arsed to talk more about ECM at this point if it doesnt get on the table for the patch. |
Minigin
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:26:00 -
[53] - Quote
i do also want to point out... that all the other ewars tend to do something along the lines of disable one 'class' of ship.
tds - turret ships neuts - cap reliant ships damps - snipers and kiters tps - sig tankers
it can even be said of warp scrams and webs aside from their obvious tackle (anti escape mechanics): warp scram - mwd fits webs - sig tanks/ab fits
but then you get to ecm...
counters everything. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
2181
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:32:00 -
[54] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Do you think the current ECM mechanic is good? Yes.
But the ECCM visual effect, is nauseating.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Baaldor
Sin Factory Anarchy Unlimited
46
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:33:00 -
[55] - Quote
Caulk H0lster wrote:Tactic, yes.
Game mechanic, no.
From what I understand.........
What do you mean "From what I understand"? If you do not get it, then your wall of text is irrelevant. Let me guess you are one of those "Fit multi-specs on everything" special snowflakes.
ECM is a good mechanic, and if used properly, and if the user "understands", it can be a good tactic. Plus it is one of those game mechanics that require some actual thought behind it if you wish to be actually effective.
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Raimo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
31
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:33:00 -
[56] - Quote
ECM is a horrible game mechanic. Overpowered in small gang environments (But oh so boring), completely useless in large fights. Just do something, the best ideas I've seen have been to transform it to a dedicated anti-logistics EWAR for large fleets |
Lord Ryan
True Xero
111
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:34:00 -
[57] - Quote
It's a bit lame! But a favorite tactic for fail blobs. Since most pilots fall in the fail blob category, it's here to stay. -á"Nerf it cause I can't fly it". I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Minigin
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:39:00 -
[58] - Quote
Baaldor wrote:Caulk H0lster wrote:Tactic, yes.
Game mechanic, no.
From what I understand......... What do you mean "From what I understand"? If you do not get it, then your wall of text is irrelevant. Let me guess you are one of those "Fit multi-specs on everything" special snowflakes. ECM is a good mechanic, and if used properly, and if the user "understands", it can be a good tactic. Plus it is one of those game mechanics that require some actual thought behind it if you wish to be actually effective.
please explain to me what you mean by actual thought in relation to ecm? |
Ariane VoxDei
19
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Posted - 2011.11.21 14:39:00 -
[59] - Quote
Actually now that i've given it a bit more thought, if ECM was shortranged, like I feel it needs to be, we have a opportunity here.
The ECM equivalent of a hictor. Simply a heavily tanked, ECM-bubble ship with little or no offensive capabilities. With the difference (from existing ecm/ecmburst) that anything inside the bubble cant lock, loses all locks - including itself. Or a module that works to similar effect.
I mean, imagine it. racing a 100% lockbuster bubble through a enemy gang. It would be hilarious. |
mkint
372
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Posted - 2011.11.21 15:07:00 -
[60] - Quote
Ecm should reduce max locked targets by 1 100% of the time. Eccm should add 1 locked targets 100% of the time. Chance only applies when you are in falloff.
There also needs to be changes with tracking ewar and mods to make them work with missiles as well but this is an ecm thread. |
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