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So, tell me what you think of this

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Mr Happ	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:35:00 - [1] Player A hears about EVE Online, goes on ebay to look for a good account, unaware that it's agaisnt the rules He then buys 2 accounts for say, ú200 each Then plays eve for nearly 2 years, now then the orginal owner decides to come back to eve and uses game mechanics to get the accounts back and the player A who brought the accounts is *****, no accoutns, no isk, no ships, eveyrthing eh ahs worked for for 2 years down the drain, orginal owner has it all. So he peitions CCP and there responce is we dont care, your not egtting anything* even tho for 2 years he was loyal to them and payed every month. Oh and the orginal player isnt banned for ebaying the accounts Fiction? No, this just happend in the last two weeks, my questions What are your views? Do you think this is fair LDT Recruitment
Guvnor RBM	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:39:00 - [2] Thats all ****ed up , Fraud for want of a better word _______________________________________________ How I feel about Eve: the love/hate-ometer: Love .\|........................... Hate http://www.battleclinic.com/kill_sigs/signature_display.php?
Indomitus Rex	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:43:00 - [3] You might have a case against CCP. Other than they would prolly say that you should have read the EULA, etc. before purchasing said accounts from E-Bay. Deutschland.
Haxar	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:45:00 - [4] There exist a saying here which translates roughly into "ignorance is no excuse". Besides of that, it sounds rather fishy.
Datsun Achura	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:45:00 - [5] How did he get his account back? Did 'player a' change the password?
Bosie	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:45:00 - [6] Hows about this: Person A buys a car from person B. Two years later the police come and take the car off person A as it turns out it was stolen and even person B did not know that. Person A cries to the courts and is told to go away. Ignorance = no excuse. Bosie. "There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND." ...Winston
Stareyes	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:48:00 - [7] answer here being dont use ebay in my opinion even if he never knew it was against the rules oh and as long as ye keep the cd key you can get the original account back
Fallorn	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:50:00 - [8] player A should have bought his own acount and payed to have the chrs transfered.
Fallorn	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:50:00 - [9] player A should have bought his own acount and payed to have the chrs transfered.
wierchas noobhunter	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:53:00 - [10] now read this: EBAY IS BAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! join col ! now

Verone	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:56:00 - [11] Hard lines. Player A has no case aganist CCP. Before logging into the game, he should have read and understood the EULA. This is a LEGAL document, that covers CCP's back. The fact that he "didn't know" that it was aganist the EULA to buy an account from ebay means nothing. I could walk out of my house, and steal someone's car, claiming I didn't know it was illegal to do so. It is, and I would pay the price. Simple as that. Your friend should have familiarised himself with eve's TOS and EULA before logging into the game. Sadly he's out of pocket, and out of his hard earned work in the game because of his own ignorance to the facts that were there for him to read. VETO RECRUITMENT
Novarei	Posted - 2006.07.07 23:56:00 - [12] my views are; hahahahaha unlucky --------------------
Aran Cole	Posted - 2006.07.08 00:07:00 - [13] The only thing I see wrong with this is that the guy who sold the account on EBay isn't banned. _______________________
Deadeye Dave	Posted - 2006.07.08 00:08:00 - [14] I think it is fair. I don't understand why anyone would spend ú400 on accounts for a game they only hear about and haven't bothered to review the EULA. After a while of game play he must of been aware that buying the accounts was illegal so why didn't he do something about it instead of waiting 2 years until he was caught?
Datsun Achura	Posted - 2006.07.08 00:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Aran Cole The only thing I see wrong with this is that the guy who sold the account on EBay isn't banned. Yeah. Even if player A has a receipt, it's doubtful that this could prove anything. The original seller has won, in the end.
Lord Frost	Posted - 2006.07.08 00:34:00 - [16] Well... how can the original owner use "game mechanics" to get his accounts back? I don't believe there is a way, and besides... the player who bought the accounts on ebay can always say it was an account for isk transaction. Possible between alts... or another means. Yes ebay is bad, but no... once you have an account, you have the pw, and you pay the bill... there is NO way any original owner can take it back... sorry.
Azraelion	Posted - 2006.07.08 00:40:00 - [17] In general, someone "buying" an account is certainly experienced with MMPORGs and aware of the legal (EULA) and security problems that may arise...so I can't see player A as an innocent victim. It may not be fair that everything is lost after player A payed for the account for 2 years, it may not be fair that the original "owner" gets away without a ban, but CCP has no insight in any private deal that may be made, they stick to the EULA, and I can't see them doing anything wrong in this case. One big misconception in your post: There is no account OWNER. The EULA says: "Upon establishing a valid Account, and subject to your continued compliance with the EULA, CCP grants you a limited, non-exclusive, revocable license to access the System, and to access and use the Game Content and User Content (each as defined below), in order to play EVEÖ online." So, with a valid account, you can play the game, use the content, but you never ever own anything. Everything in the game, your character, your items, your ISK is owned by CCP...and they decided to let the guy who created the account use this game content...sounds reasonable.
Lisento Slaven	Posted - 2006.07.08 00:45:00 - [18] If Player B is the one who put his account up for sale on Ebay and then came back a few years to claim it, what's to stop him from putting it on Ebay again? Both people should be banned. The buyer and the seller. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Mr Happ	Posted - 2006.07.08 00:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Lord Frost Well... how can the original owner use "game mechanics" to get his accounts back? I don't believe there is a way, and besides... the player who bought the accounts on ebay can always say it was an account for isk transaction. Possible between alts... or another means. Yes ebay is bad, but no... once you have an account, you have the pw, and you pay the bill... there is NO way any original owner can take it back... sorry. Apprently, and im egtting this from my ex corp mate, you can sell your accounts on ebay, wait a year then use the email address that u registered them with because its kept on file. And claim they where stolen and you gave up eve, no questions asked they give y the accounts back This is exactly what happend this time LDT Recruitment
Otto Torivus	Posted - 2006.07.08 00:56:00 - [20] Fraud sucks, that being said... If he has records of the sale he can get his money back bare minimum. With E-bay a record exsists. Contacting CCP not working? Contact a lawyer, a good ambulance chaser is very affordable and suprisingly effective. The person might not be able to get the accounts back, but he can make his antagonists life a living hell. PS my spelling sucks rhubarb Time to kill a commie for Jesus

Lord Frost	Posted - 2006.07.08 01:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Mr Happ Originally by: Lord Frost Well... how can the original owner use "game mechanics" to get his accounts back? I don't believe there is a way, and besides... the player who bought the accounts on ebay can always say it was an account for isk transaction. Possible between alts... or another means. Yes ebay is bad, but no... once you have an account, you have the pw, and you pay the bill... there is NO way any original owner can take it back... sorry. Apprently, and im egtting this from my ex corp mate, you can sell your accounts on ebay, wait a year then use the email address that u registered them with because its kept on file. And claim they where stolen and you gave up eve, no questions asked they give y the accounts back This is exactly what happend this time With that said... you can claim an account bought thru isk is stolen too. I find this all hard to believe... that the whole STOLEN argument after a year or 2 will float. Very hard to believe.
Ethernet	Posted - 2006.07.08 01:11:00 - [22] Edited by: Ethernet on 08/07/2006 01:12:21 Accounts can not change ownership. If you have received an account second hand, the original owner can still claim ownership of this account. Note that accounts transferred before May 18th 2004 are exempt from this rule, as account transfers were allowed before that time. Characters can be transfered through the Character Transfer service, to another valid account. This is the only valid procedure to attain ownership of an character.
Lord Frost	Posted - 2006.07.08 01:14:00 - [23] Okay... what if... in theory... I buy account on Ebay, transfer the character to my account.. or another account. Done.
Darkrydar	Posted - 2006.07.08 01:31:00 - [24] You use to be able to change acount ownership. This was before CCP allowed character swapping (before that was even an option). Keep in mind this was 2-3 years ago. You would have to mail CCP and inform then of the change. That being said, if the guy bought an account off ebay and had no clue about the eula its his problem. When you deal with a lowlife who was breaking the rules, the fact that they scammed you shouldnt really be a shocker should it?
Jinx Barker	Posted - 2006.07.08 01:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Lord Frost With that said... you can claim any account bought thru isk is stolen too. I find this all hard to believe... that the whole STOLEN argument after a year or 2 will float. Very hard to believe. EDIT: on another note... Ebay is legal. There is a real fine line, but Ebay transactions are binding, whether or not they violate any EULA. Ebay doesnt care about CCPs EULA. The new owner didnt buy an account, he bought the time put into that account. Actually couple of things: I did a little research, E-Bay purchases are somewhat legal, you have a small recourse if you buy ACTUALL, PHYSICAL MERCHANDISE - you have absolutley NO RECOURSE if you buy what they call "VIRTUAL ITEMS" - The sales of VIRTUAL items can take place on E-Bay and be paid for by payment agents like Pay-Pal - However, if you ask PAY PAL and E-bay to send you their "fine print" info you will notice that they specifically obsolve themselves of any responsibility with regard to VIRTUAL ITEMS. So if you get scammed buying a VIRUAL ITEM, you cannot claim "FAILED DELIVERY" or not getting the merhcnadise - since the fine print by E-Bay, PayPal, BidPay and rest of them are specifically exclude them. So lesson is: DO NOT USE E-BAY OR BUY VIRTUAL ITEMS WITH REAL MONEY. Regarding the issue of Account Selling and stuff, I feel we need to clarify few things: 1) There is a difference between an Account Sale and Character Sale: whether LEGAL/APPROVED by CCP, for ISK on EVE website or illicit/NOT APPROVED by CCP, via E-Bay, for real-life cash. 2) It is illegal/NOT APPROVED by CCP to sell EVE Online accounts, under any circumstances, ever. 3) It is legal/APPROVED by CCP to sell Characters from an EVE Online account for ISK and, if seller pays the transfer fee. 4) It is NOT legal/against EULA to sell characters, items etc, for real-life cash. So, all the people who: Bought accounts from E-Bay are at HUGE RISK of losing their accounts. Bought characters from E-Bay, are at lesser risk - unless CCP gets hard evidence. Bought characters for ISK either via forums, or via in game means - and can prove it with screenshots and conversation logs - are safe. In other words, DO NOT USE E-BAY. People CAN AND WILL SCAM you when it comes to EVE Online Items. I feel bad for the OP though, I understand - as a human being with emotions and feelings - what happened and what he did. However, I also understand the CCP's side, and they are 100% protected by EULA and there is absolutely no legal way of getting under that.
Nefera Sen	Posted - 2006.07.08 01:50:00 - [26] Tragic Irony, or poetic justice? Both should be banned for useing ebay.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.07.08 01:50:00 - [27] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/07/2006 01:52:24 Actually, you were allowed to transfer accounts before the character transfer tool existed, IIRC. Not sure if you were allowed to pay money though. Both should be banned outright IMO. --Proud member of the [23]-- -WTB Platinum Technite, WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II-
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2006.07.08 02:04:00 - [28] Owned. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
HostageTaker	Posted - 2006.07.08 02:11:00 - [29] Ebay is the Devil's work! That is all. Oh and ban both people for ebaying, kthxbye. >>> EvE Online Wallpapers <<<
Traellium	Posted - 2006.07.08 02:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Otto Torivus Fraud sucks, that being said... If he has records of the sale he can get his money back bare minimum. With E-bay a record exsists. Contacting CCP not working? Contact a lawyer, a good ambulance chaser is very affordable and suprisingly effective. The person might not be able to get the accounts back, but he can make his antagonists life a living hell. PS my spelling sucks rhubarb Well, good luck with doing this if you live in Bushwack Utah, and they are in Nowhere, Romania. All you buy is a lawyer who knows how to collect for his time ... from you. Had this situation pop up with Sony as well. Friends took over accounts from people leaving the game, played the accounts for 2+ years, lotsa loot, paid full year subscription, and lost the accounts to the original holder. Only one person ever has true rights to an account, and to make things easier for Sony the rule was whoever proved they originally bought the account won. Original email address, original credit card info, original registration address ... they all point at who actually owns the account. Any other arguments after that are really irrelevant, since it's so hard to prove you did or didn't steal the account. The gaming companies could spend tons of time and energy on crap like this, I prefer if they focus on more legitimate gaming issues myself. This whole issue arises because some sold the accoutn illegally, and someone bought it illegally, and they can't get along. If its not already obvious, this is a big reason why selling accounts is illegal? Also, people sell the accounts on eBay and then say someone hacked their account and sold it... so they get it back. Then they sell it again, with all the stuff you added. Its buyer beware, and if you spend money on virtual items that are virtually yours until they virtually aren't, its not the biggest issue in life.

Sister Zoot	Posted - 2006.07.08 02:40:00 - [31] Originally by: Mr Happ Player A hears about EVE Online, goes on ebay to look for a good account, unaware that it's agaisnt the rules He then buys 2 accounts for say, ú200 each Then plays eve for nearly 2 years, now then the orginal owner decides to come back to eve and uses game mechanics to get the accounts back and the player A who brought the accounts is *****, no accoutns, no isk, no ships, eveyrthing eh ahs worked for for 2 years down the drain, orginal owner has it all. So he peitions CCP and there responce is we dont care, your not egtting anything* even tho for 2 years he was loyal to them and payed every month. Oh and the orginal player isnt banned for ebaying the accounts Fiction? No, this just happend in the last two weeks, my questions What are your views? Do you think this is fair I think this might be called karma.
JP Beauregard	Posted - 2006.07.08 03:53:00 - [32] Originally by: Mr Happ What are your views? Do you think this is fair Stupidity has its own reward. ** PILCO - We Service Brains of All Sizes **
Mystic Elandria	Posted - 2006.07.08 05:19:00 - [33] yeah this world is a **** up place... too bad its against the law strap guns or missiles to your car private plane and go take out the sum *** who ripped you off
Chief Seattle	Posted - 2006.07.08 05:47:00 - [34] hmm, mesed up one one side, just plain worng on the other: lesser of 2 evils i'd say the player who purchased the accounts may have a slight chance of getting them back from CCP but if CCP took the accounts from him in the first place then idk i wonder if i could purchase a female sig and make some siglets.....
Lardarz B'stard	Posted - 2006.07.08 05:55:00 - [35] Caveat Emptor, as they say in Leeds. Both players should be banned imho, but I guess CCP would ask for PROOF that he had actually sold the account. Exiles Recruitment
Drizit	Posted - 2006.07.08 06:56:00 - [36] Originally by: Lardarz B'stard Caveat Emptor, as they say in Leeds. Both players should be banned imho, but I guess CCP would ask for PROOF that he had actually sold the account. Ebay would provide records if the player went to them and asked. It would result in both being banned but at least the guy who bought it would stop the other one from getting the account back. Depending on how the account was purchased, he could even get his money back. If Paypal was involved, a petition to them would result in a big legal suit against the player who sold the account for fraud. In cases of large amount like that, player A would get his money back and if player B did not have a paypal account that paypal could get the money back from, they would take him to court. I have had extensive dealings with Paypal and I got my money back after paying for a PC that didn't turn up. He closed both his Ebay and confirmed Paypal accounts right after the sale. Paypal are taking the guy to court for over ú700 due to my reimbursement. So it's not only the buyer who needs to beware. --
Tachy	Posted - 2006.07.08 07:08:00 - [37] If the trade took place back when account trading was allowed, have your corpmate send in proof of his/her purchase. If he/she bought it later, have both banned. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Jinx Barker	Posted - 2006.07.08 07:11:00 - [38] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 08/07/2006 07:12:36 Originally by: Drizit Originally by: Lardarz B'stard Caveat Emptor, as they say in Leeds. Both players should be banned imho, but I guess CCP would ask for PROOF that he had actually sold the account. Ebay would provide records if the player went to them and asked. It would result in both being banned but at least the guy who bought it would stop the other one from getting the account back. Depending on how the account was purchased, he could even get his money back. If Paypal was involved, a petition to them would result in a big legal suit against the player who sold the account for fraud. In cases of large amount like that, player A would get his money back and if player B did not have a paypal account that paypal could get the money back from, they would take him to court. I have had extensive dealings with Paypal and I got my money back after paying for a PC that didn't turn up. He closed both his Ebay and confirmed Paypal accounts right after the sale. Paypal are taking the guy to court for over ú700 due to my reimbursement. So it's not only the buyer who needs to beware. Drizit, you missing a point, E-Bay & PayPal cant do nothing for him. They DO NOT COVER VIRTUAL ITEM sales. It is funny that you can break all the Copyright Laws in the world by selling the stuff and buying the stuff, but if it is a scam then itÆs all over. People shouldnÆt use E-Bay to buy in game items. But moral implications aside, perhaps if people realized that if they indeed bought stuff from E-Bay, virtual stuff like EVE online Characters, Accounts, ISK and whatever else they are selling up there, the seller of the item can scam the buyer w/o any legal repercussions because neither PayPal nor any other Online Payments agency covers virtual items under their "buyer protection agreements." So, the reason why you got your cash back is because it was an actual item, it was a piece of merchandise, tangible and physical. EVE Online and MMORPG stuff falls under "virtual items" clause.
Dem Bones	Posted - 2006.07.08 07:57:00 - [39] 1) Whot the hell is dumb enough/sad enough to pay ú200 to buy an account? Half the fun of the game is getting there by your own means. Its like buying half-life 2 and using a cheat to skip straight to the end level. 2) Player B should have been banned. He has blatantly broken the EULA, and yet is allowed to get away with it. Then again, we don't actually know if the original owner actually sold the accounts himself. His PC could have been stolen, or hacked, and the account sold off by the theif
Plutoinum	Posted - 2006.07.08 08:31:00 - [40] Edited by: Plutoinum on 08/07/2006 08:33:27 wrong button

HippoKing	Posted - 2006.07.08 08:38:00 - [41] Owned Only thing I don't like is the guy who sold it getting the accounts back.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.07.08 08:39:00 - [42] Originally by: Dem Bones 1) Whot the hell is dumb enough/sad enough to pay ú200 to buy an account? Half the fun of the game is getting there by your own means. Its like buying half-life 2 and using a cheat to skip straight to the end level. No, its like buying HL2 and then paying someone 10x the cost of it so you don't have to play most of it
Sensor Error	Posted - 2006.07.08 09:59:00 - [43] Originally by: Mr Happ Oh and the orginal player isnt banned for ebaying the accounts Fiction? No, this just happend in the last two weeks, my questions What are your views? Do you think this is fair It's perfectly true that he won't get banned, as the transfer of accounts was allowed before about a year and a half ago. E-mail CCP, find receipts of the transfer, contact E-bay as well. There is surely something they can do. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!! ------------------------------------------ Dev Responses to common questions
Sensor Error	Posted - 2006.07.08 10:00:00 - [44] Edited by: Sensor Error on 08/07/2006 10:04:38 Edited by: Sensor Error on 08/07/2006 10:03:36 Edited by: Sensor Error on 08/07/2006 10:02:44 Originally by: Bosie Hows about this: Person A buys a car from person B. Two years later the police come and take the car off person A as it turns out it was stolen and even person B did not know that. Person A cries to the courts and is told to go away. Ignorance = no excuse. Bosie. Originally by: Indomitus Rex You might have a case against CCP. Other than they would prolly say that you should have read the EULA, etc. before purchasing said accounts from E-Bay. Originally by: Drizit Originally by: Lardarz B'stard Caveat Emptor, as they say in Leeds. Both players should be banned imho, but I guess CCP would ask for PROOF that he had actually sold the account. Ebay would provide records if the player went to them and asked. It would result in both being banned but at least the guy who bought it would stop the other one from getting the account back. Depending on how the account was purchased, he could even get his money back. If Paypal was involved, a petition to them would result in a big legal suit against the player who sold the account for fraud. In cases of large amount like that, player A would get his money back and if player B did not have a paypal account that paypal could get the money back from, they would take him to court. I have had extensive dealings with Paypal and I got my money back after paying for a PC that didn't turn up. He closed both his Ebay and confirmed Paypal accounts right after the sale. Paypal are taking the guy to court for over ú700 due to my reimbursement. So it's not only the buyer who needs to beware. Originally by: Dem Bones 2) Player B should have been banned. He has blatantly broken the EULA, and yet is allowed to get away with it. How about NO, as the selling of accounts was _LEGAL_ back then. He should be able to prove that the transfer occured before they outlawed it, and that the transfer happened at all, CCP should give it back. It depends on a lot of stuff I guess, but still. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!! ------------------------------------------ Dev Responses to common questions
Sensor Error	Posted - 2006.07.08 10:03:00 - [45] Edited by: Sensor Error on 08/07/2006 10:03:22 double post RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!! ------------------------------------------ Dev Responses to common questions
Dao 2	Posted - 2006.07.08 10:19:00 - [46] Edited by: Dao 2 on 08/07/2006 10:20:15 Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/07/2006 01:52:24 Actually, you were allowed to transfer accounts before the character transfer tool existed, IIRC. Not sure if you were allowed to pay money though. Both should be banned outright IMO. no u couldn't ;p not even for isk :\| ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Di Jiensai	Posted - 2006.07.08 12:08:00 - [47] Asuming that it has never been legal to sell an account for real money: Gather all evidence concerning the transactions: Look up ebay archived aution if possible scan your bank account transaction sheet with the payment for the account and your eve payments for the time you played the account. include any emails you exchanged with the seller. Wrap it all up and send a mail to ccp explaining the whole issue and/or petition it. If they stick to their own rules, they will have to ban the account if you can supply all said proof. You will not get the account back, but you can and should make sure that the old/new user does not profit from his clearly immoral actions. To quote a proverb: "Ignorance does not protect from punishment" --- The Story of the Big-Bad-Nos-Domi and the Brutix Selfproclaimed last instance on Rightousness Issues
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.07.08 13:13:00 - [48] so he paid 400 for 2 accounts to play a game he hasnt even played yet....ya right, the logic isnt there, so i call the OP a lier. NOBODY spends 400 bucks on a game they just heard was good. regardsless, eula says you can not sell or buy in the fashion mentioned, and as many said already ignorence is no excuse. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The Hippo mating ritual
Oppenheimerr	Posted - 2006.07.08 13:49:00 - [49] Originally by: DukDodgerz so he paid 400 for 2 accounts to play a game he hasnt even played yet....ya right, the logic isnt there, so i call the OP a lier. NOBODY spends 400 bucks on a game they just heard was good. regardsless, eula says you can not sell or buy in the fashion mentioned, and as many said already ignorence is no excuse. Well you clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Go play WoW for a while and you'll discover there are tonnes of little kiddies who had daddy buy them a character off ebay right off the bat. You see level 60 char's running around without a damned clue what they're doing. It happens in every MMO and it's sickening.

wystler	Posted - 2006.07.08 16:23:00 - [50] Okay, think this has run its course now. If anyone you know has bought anything on Ebay you should petition it ingame and let the GMs investigate. I'd highly recommend you don't breach the EULA in this fashion, as you have no legal recourse if something like this does go and happen to you eve-crc.net \| forum rules \| [email protected] Official keeper of the smilie. Yarr!




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