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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
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Posted - 2014.08.13 12:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Incursions broke the economy of this game when they released and you guys have been trying to fix it in every other way other than at the cause of the problem.
The main problem with incursions is that there is no loot and no salvaging to do. What this means is that these sites are just chain run so that all time spent running incursions is generating large amounts of server created isk as opposed to isk gained from other players.
For example when running level 4 missions a player earns a small percentage of his/her isk from bounties and mission rewards and also in most cases spends a fair amount of time cleaning up the mission and selling loot / minerals from reprocessed loot to other players.
Running anoms is a similar thing where you run a few then clean up then run a few more. In the distant past I think I probably made more isk selling the ships that I built from melting anom loot than I did from the bounty payouts.
To compound this problem you guys recently cut in half the amount of minerals gotten from melting mission / anom loot so I am sure a fairly large percentage of players will stop looting / salvaging and just speed run sites adding further to the imbalance of server generated isk versus isk gained from other players.
In case you guys don't see the problem isk coming into the game from NPC payouts adds to the total isk pool in game and thus increases prices on everything in game. Now I understand the concept of isk sinks and how this last "industrial" expansion added large isk sinks through the increased costs associated with setting up jobs however I feel this is a less ideal way to go about things as adding "taxes" to the game seems to sap some of the fun.
I really think you guys need to contemplate more the amount of time that players spend earning isk from the server versus isk from other players as well as how much time is needed to be spent from various activities to earn a ship loss.
Since NPC payouts are static when mudflation occurs and prices increase that means players that earn the bulk of their income from NPC sources have to spend a higher percentage of their game time earning isk to pay for PvP losses. |

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 13:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Quite simply, I can't see how these sites are going to be remotely worth it if 5 Marauders can only earn 24 Million/Hour including LP each. They need to go back to the drawing board on scout sites, and make them different somehow. Make them about small ships, say.... Cruiser Max. And make them reasonably Isk/Hr competitive. VG's I'd leave as is, since Vanguards often did have heavy elite troops in historical terms. Make Assaults BC max, and redesign all the sites to be about mobile BC fleets (Obviously HAC's, T3's & Logi's would still be involved) and ship speed combined with good tank. Fast strike in and back out somehow. Then you have most ship sizes involved in incursions, Frigates/Destroyers might still get left behind a little but Cruisers are highly accessible to a new player.
As incursions are now on TQ T3's and logis are used quite a bit so I don't see how changing it to cruiser only makes it much more accessible to newer players. Now making them frig and dessie only sites to eliminate T3's and logis would make is so a 2 month old player could run these in a T2 frig.
I think really cost is more of a barrier for newer players than anything. Few newer players know how to earn the isk to pay for dead space and faction fit T3s, T2s and faction ships. Yes incursions can pay out enough to make it worth it to use them but if you can't buy one in the first place and no one will let you in fleet without one then you are kind of dead in the water.
If you want to make these more accessible to newer players I think you have to make cheaper ships more of a viable option so that they can find fleets and the only way I see that happening is to make incursion low / null sec only.
However while I have run high sec incursions I've not run low / null sec ones so I don't even know what people currently fly in them or how hard it is to get into fleet currently with a cheap ship so I could be way off base here.
If anyone reading this who flys low / null sec incursions regularly could give a description of what people typically fly in them and how easy it is to get a fleet if you are in a T2 fit T1 ship that would be appreciated. |

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 13:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Incursions broke the economy of this game when they released and you guys have been trying to fix it in every other way other than at the cause of the problem. right, a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h broke the economy, while there are people earning hundred of BILLIONS out there. first of all, incursions are limited, there just so many sites which can be run by just so many people.
First of all who is earning hundreds of Billions per hour out there and what activity are they doing to accomplish this?
I'm not sure what you are hopping to accomplish by comparing a rate ( isk per hour ) to a static number ( hundreds of Billions ).
I also think you missed the point. It's not so much the raw amount of isk / hour potential earnings as it is the source of the isk. You seem to have completely missed the point of the post I made or got all butt hurt when I questioned your cash cow and stopped reading past the first paragraph and decided to rage post.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:Incursions broke the economy of this game when they released and you guys have been trying to fix it in every other way other than at the cause of the problem. right, a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h broke the economy, while there are people earning hundred of BILLIONS out there. first of all, incursions are limited, there just so many sites which can be run by just so many people. First of all who is earning hundreds of Billions per hour out there and what activity are they doing to accomplish this? first: were did you read the "per hour"? second: you still didnt explain how something so limited in scope and number of involved players can break the economy. there's a finite number of incursions that can be running at the same time, each of those can have a finite number of sites at the same time and even if you drag it on by not shooting moms its duration is finite. each of those sites have a fixed number of maximum ships that can enter and a fixed payout - even when one of these sites get contended only the winning fleet gets the payout. no way in heck this can even jiggle eve economy, lets not talk about "break" it.
go back up and reread your initial post that I commented on. You said "a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h".
As far as you limited scope comment it's not as limited as you make it seem when sites are completed new ones spawn and when an incursion completes a new incursion spawns.
Just because it may be limited in nature does not mean it has no effect on the game economy.
As far as my original comment you are again missing the point that all isk in not equal and when you introduce a new source of server generated isk without introducing an isk sink you offset that balance and mudflation occurs.
Also I am of the oppinion that most of the things that CCP has done since the original balance offset has served to only make things worse not better.
If you dont' understand the difference between server generated isk and isk gotten from other players or the concept of mudflation I do not have the room here nor do I care to take the time to explain it to you especially when google will help you find resources that will do a much better job than I could. |

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 15:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote: As incursions are now on TQ T3's and logis are used quite a bit so I don't see how changing it to cruiser only makes it much more accessible to newer players. Now making them frig and dessie only sites to eliminate T3's and logis would make is so a 2 month old player could run these in a T2 frig. .
the same would happen with pirate fregates and such. anything that can help low isk - low sp players do something would help more high isk - high sp ones. they solved this problem in high sec ded 3-4 by excluding t3 ships, the only solution that can keep eve players from using ultra costly/blingy ships to min-max wathever ccp throw at them is to stop those ships at the door. but I dont think its a good solution, you just have to accept that older players will min-max any pve content at the cost of newbies.
What you say here is just not true. They just made drone changes to have a more linear increase with benefit from skill and more base damage without increasing all level 5 damage so that is one example of a change which helps low SP players without helping high SP players.
I fully agree with you that players will min-max that was in part my point. I do not like changes like locking out T3 which restrict choice. I'd much rather see changes that encourage one behavior over another. An example would be to increase the risk of loosing a ship so that it would not make financial sense to fly "blinged out" ships into them. This could be accomplished by making incursions only spawn in low / null sec. Also could figure out a way to add some type of variation into the mix that would lead to an unpredictableness which resulted in more "wipes"
However none of that is really important here as I was commenting to Nevyn on how what he suggested doesn't really change the options currently open to newbies now and how the real barrier for entry was not skills but availability to fleet and isk. |

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote:
go back up and reread your initial post that I commented on. You said "a couple hundred guys earning 100mil/h".
read better the same post and thell me where's the "billions/hour" comment. if you assume something, you know what they say about people who assume things? Quote: As far as you limited scope comment it's not as limited as you make it seem when sites are completed new ones spawn and when an incursion completes a new incursion spawns.
Just because it may be limited in nature does not mean it has no effect on the game economy.
in an economy like eve, where people losing trilions in ships like the last bruhuaua in null make only a small blink in trit sales, it is completely meaningless. just bother to look at available data instead of just assuming (again...). Quote: As far as my original comment you are again missing the point that all isk in not equal and when you introduce a new source of server generated isk without introducing an isk sink you offset that balance and mudflation occurs.
and would you care to post your statistical data about how these changes would impact eve echonomy in the short, mid and long range? where's your data coming from? you are just jumping the "there are a few guys in hisec making money, lets chase them out of MY game!" bandwagon, its making you looking jelous as hek, but feel free if you want.
I'm not sure if it's me being poor at expressing my point or if you are just reading too fast. My original point what that you were comparing a rate to a bulk number. No you did not say hundreds of Billions of isk per hour but you did say hundreds of Millions of isk per hour and I was pointing out that comparing those two is meaningless.
Once again you are comparing apples to oranges with your trit reference.
So now we move on to due to you not understand the base concept that I have put forth you want to divert the conversation to my lack of having any statistical data of which CCP holds tight to it's chest like the trade secret that it is. No I do not have any statistical data on this nor do I have any computer models to predict specific numerical outcomes and if I did you would have seen the title "CCP" before my name. However just because I don't work for CCP and as such do not have access to the specific market data that would be needed does not mean that I do not understand the basic concepts of how in game economies work nor does it invalidate my opinion on the matter.
I'm not really sure what you think I'm jealous of. I've got the skill points and isk to do what ever I want in game. If I want to run incursion then I run them there's nothing for me to be jealous of. You however seem to want to try to invalidate my comments by offering nothing other than diversion tactics and refusing to address my base point and offering numbers so vague and incomparable as to be meaningless. You seem to be jealously protecting something you know to be out of balance.
Now if you understand that there is a difference between server isk and player isk and the ratio of server isk to isk sinks and how once isk is introduced to the game above and beyond that which is taken out that newly generated isk has affects far beyond that initial payout and is cumulative over time then I am more than happy to be corrected and educated on the matter. But your ad hominem attacks only serve to demonstrate the complete lack of any factual basis for your viewpoint and maybe even a basic lack of understanding of the concepts that I put forth here.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 16:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote:ergherhdfgh wrote: I fully agree with you that players will min-max that was in part my point. I do not like changes like locking out T3 which restrict choice. I'd much rather see changes that encourage one behavior over another. An example would be to increase the risk of loosing a ship so that it would not make financial sense to fly "blinged out" ships into them. This could be accomplished by making incursions only spawn in low / null sec. Also could figure out a way to add some type of variation into the mix that would lead to an unpredictableness which resulted in more "wipes"
again with the "if we nerf high sec enough its players will come here" bull high sec players dont like playing in null of they would be already there. if you remove all content from high sec, you just remove any interest for those players to play eve. and if you lose enough players your nullbears wont have enough money to keep paying ccp servers and people. would you like a 150$ montly subscription?
You sir are an excellent troll. You know how to make your comments ignorant enough that I have to comment.
I do not agree with nerfing high sec to "force" players into null. However you do seem to want to ignore the fact that ships people are willing to fly in high sec they would not be willing to fly in low / null and the significant power increase that those ships offer will affect the isk / hour so if the compensation difference is not significant enough to over come that then there is an imbalance. There is a reason why CCP removed high sec level 5 missions from the game.
I doubt you will see large numbers of people willing to fly faction and deadspace fit marauders into low sec incursions and if you see them in null it's most likely a result of the system being locked down with bubbled gates and or more players than is needed for the incursion to act as "PvP back up" both of which reduce the isk / hour of and player running the null sec incursion and all of which are unneeded or impossible in high sec.
I play WoW and I raid in that game. I understand the attraction of that type of cooperative non-competitive game play. I am also not a PvPer so I understand people who have no interest in going out to null and would never want to force or encourage that type of game play and am unhappy with CCP's current drive to do so.
However one must understand this game is not WoW and that games like WoW do not have a economy that is so closely tied to game mechanics in so many ways. Also games like WoW completely seperate PvE and PvP with instanced dungeons that forbid the two activities from ever meeting. The opposite of which is true for Eve. |

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
171
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Posted - 2014.08.13 20:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Sara Tosa wrote: its not a question of money, if you place anything in null only people blue with the two coalitions will be able to run them. and if you are blue you can run them in wathever ship you want, you just need to look at intel and warp to pos when needed. if you place them in low only a few people that can hold that system completely locked for the period or friendly with every local denizens will be able to run them, exactly as it happens with level 5 missions. for everybody else would be suicide. so basically you arent lowering the isk/sp factor, you are just removing them from most player's reach.
I'm not sure what you mean by isk / sp factor but i never implied that I wanted to see it easier for lower skill point players to make isk I did not even suggest that they get easier access to incursions that was someone else's comment that I was replying to. All that I said was that in high sec incursions it's very difficult to get into a group if you do not have a "blinged out" and "shinny" ship. The isk needed to buy a ship like that is certainly a barrier of entry for newer players that makes finding a fleet difficult for them. Even if you could come up with a fleet of newbies to run them some other high dps fleet could come by and steal all your payouts.
My only comment was that in low sec and null sec I doubt the "shinny" ship prerequisite for getting into fleet that exists in high sec would likely not exist in low or null.
The problem with the large coalitions dominating and locking down almost all of null sec is one that I have commented on else where and is a deviation from this topic and therefore I will not get into it here. |
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