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Kali Suggestion no. 137: Pardons.

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Darkon Gatland	Posted - 2006.07.17 16:51:00 - [1] An idea struck me while is thinking about security status. When people kill others and take a security hit it takes them along while to get back up to positive security status. A logical scenario of course especially for pirates, but what about those who either shot at someone by accident or killed a pirate in low sec who had been harassing him or his corp? So this idea popped into my head, with Kali we will have factional warfare and "tours of duty" so why can't we have the empire you work for offer you a complete security pardon for services to the empire. Its a good way to get people involved with factional warfare and a good easy way to reset your security to 0.0. Now there must be limits to this pardon system. For example, only agents in high sec systems 0.8 - 1.0 can offer the pardon so big time pirates still have to reduce their sec status to be able to fly a ship into and out of the agent station as well as complete missions within high sec. Aswell as other restrictions to ensure it's a quick reset for the good honest eve player (no offence to pirates, you rock too). Or perhaps its a long term reward after some time with an agent, but then it become an option you can use repeatedly once you have worked a long time for him. Anyways just running it up the flagpole...
Haks'he Lirky Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.07.17 17:10:00 - [2] You used to be able to bribe concord agents and boost your sec rating, but pirates just got in pods and flown to the agents and paid to have there sec increased again. Although it was abit iratating since you had to wait 15 mins between each bribe and if you was at -10 it used to take awhile
Sakura Nihil Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.07.17 17:25:00 - [3] Quick summary of my ideas: if a pirate aligns with a faction, let them enter their high-sec space, keep their sec status, but not allow them to shoot anyone besides war targets in highsec. Might be exploited by pirates wanting to go after carebears however, so there needs to be checks and balances.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.07.17 18:23:00 - [4] Originally by: Darkon Gatland ...a good easy way to reset your security to 0.0. Nobody's ever yet explained to me why there should be one. We have to live with the consequences of our actions: why shouldn't pirates have to live with theirs? ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.17 18:29:00 - [5] Because its a game and being permanantly locked out of so many systems unless you spend a few months grinding npcs is a bit retarded. Not allowing pirates into empire is one of the main reason why you cant bounty hunt properly in EvE. And saying that allowing pirates into high sec will lead to ganking is stupid since ganking is well and truly alive in EvE anyway in high sec. Let them in. Let us fight them and collect their bounties. Most of them will be freely attackable. Oveur wants the 'Players' to be the main force behind EvE. Then why do NPCS gank any -5 character that enters .5 and up before we get a chance at them.?? Stupid idea.
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2006.07.17 18:33:00 - [6] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Darkon Gatland ...a good easy way to reset your security to 0.0. Nobody's ever yet explained to me why there should be one. We have to live with the consequences of our actions: why shouldn't pirates have to live with theirs? For killing people with negative standings there should be less of a hit, as should there be some redemption for pirates killing actual other pirates, not the NPC kind.
Jojin Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.17 20:16:00 - [7] There should not be an easy road to recovery for your security status. It was lowered because you chose to take actions against other players. The damage or pain you dished out needs to be something you live with. My main beef with this idea is it would allow individuals to take aggressive actions towards other players in empire space and then easily raise their status back up (-4.9 and up) where they would be protected by concorde, gates, and stations. As mentioned access could be easily gained while in a pod. I am all for letting people act like pirates, but let the players be able to treat them like pirates and attack them on site. As for the pirates not being able to gain access to higher security areas, I don't think it really detracts from access to game play aspects. If they wish to totally change their play style, then they just have a bit of a road to travel.
Athren Soulsteal Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.17 20:18:00 - [8] Edited by: Athren Soulsteal on 17/07/2006 20:19:14 This idea has merit but only if balanced as every other MMOG, MOD and OOG handles it. By fixing the bounty system so that you donÆt pod to get the bounty but capture and turn in the pod to the law. The neg sec player then spends X amount of time in jail till time is served or until the sec rating is up to where he is offered a pardon (based on him only killing faction enemys). Quote: Because its a game and being permanantly locked out of so many systems unless you spend a few months grinding npcs is a bit retarded. No one is forced to be a pirate, itÆs a choice. I have spent many a time in a MMOG jail because I got so annoyed at some player begging for money or stealing a kill that I would attack them. I would make the choice that the Risk (me going to jail for a bit) was worth the Reward (Killing the lamer). Right now there is no balance to Risk Vrs Reward for players that want to break the law. Balance the risk by allowing us to turn in the Baddies for the bounties and then players will finally have to live by their choices. Then you can offer pardons because it would mean something, offering pardons under the current game just further imbalances the reward the neg players are already getting for their choices. Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote
CrayC Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.17 20:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Darkon Gatland So this idea popped into my head, with Kali we will have factional warfare and "tours of duty" so why can't we have the empire you work for offer you a complete security pardon for services to the empire. Its a good way to get people involved with factional warfare and a good easy way to reset your security to 0.0. Problem is, the faction that determines your security rating, is Concord. And you will not be able to work for them, so the Empires, powerful as they may be, are not able to reset the standing achieved with someone else than themselves...
Niccolado Starwalker Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.17 23:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Darkon Gatland An idea struck me while is thinking about security status. When people kill others and take a security hit it takes them along while to get back up to positive security status. A logical scenario of course especially for pirates, but what about those who either shot at someone by accident or killed a pirate in low sec who had been harassing him or his corp? So this idea popped into my head, with Kali we will have factional warfare and "tours of duty" so why can't we have the empire you work for offer you a complete security pardon for services to the empire. Its a good way to get people involved with factional warfare and a good easy way to reset your security to 0.0. Now there must be limits to this pardon system. For example, only agents in high sec systems 0.8 - 1.0 can offer the pardon so big time pirates still have to reduce their sec status to be able to fly a ship into and out of the agent station as well as complete missions within high sec. Aswell as other restrictions to ensure it's a quick reset for the good honest eve player (no offence to pirates, you rock too). Or perhaps its a long term reward after some time with an agent, but then it become an option you can use repeatedly once you have worked a long time for him. Anyways just running it up the flagpole... There should be no easy way resetting your sec status!!! It might be a game, but you should live, breathe and die by your gained reputation. Its easy. If you dont like taking a security hit, you should stay "legal". If you cant, but want to become a "nice" man later, you should work - and work dam hard - to achieve it. Othervice, you can choose between "good guy" one day and "bad guy" the next, and a few days to align your reputation. Thats no good!
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.07.17 23:41:00 - [11] it doesn't take months to go from -10 to -1.9 (so you can go to 1.0) a few weeks of solid 0.0 ratting, level 4s, or complexes can do that. Originally by: Tekka Originally by: ISD "Can I have your stuff?" isn't constructive neither is 95% of the internet
Lorth Synchro.	Posted - 2006.07.17 23:46:00 - [12] Edited by: Lorth on 17/07/2006 23:47:05 WTF double post... ^^^ and someone got in the middle of it? ------------- Recruit me
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.17 23:46:00 - [13] Yea its totaly fair to lock players out of game play.I mean what a good sales line! WELCOME TO EVE WHERE YOU'RE FREE! well except if you're a pirate in which case a whole expansion worth of content is lost to you.But no worries Eh!?! keep sending us those 15 dollars a month even tho nobody really goes into low-sec anymore. If so lock out everyone who has a 0.0+ standing out of 0.4 or lower.Hell i want to see pirate concord come out of no where and just gank em.Because why do they deserve to enjoy more content then us?Nay i say! you worked hard to be legal ENJOY IT! nothing lower then 0.5! CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Lorth Synchro.	Posted - 2006.07.17 23:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker There should be no easy way resetting your sec status!!! It might be a game, but you should live, breathe and die by your gained reputation. Its easy. If you dont like taking a security hit, you should stay "legal". If you cant, but want to become a "nice" man later, you should work - and work dam hard - to achieve it. Othervice, you can choose between "good guy" one day and "bad guy" the next, and a few days to align your reputation. Thats no good! But its a game. Say that 6 times. And not only is it a game, but its one where you don't, or arn't forced to grind your way through it, save for raising your sec status. The only thing forcing someone to grind mindless tasks does, is punich the player, and not the charactor he plays. Which is why I hate people who say such stupid things, as "if you can't do the time dont do the crime." The charactor, which is really who should be punished, since this is a computer game, and your beef isn't with the guy behind the keyboard, isn't punished by having to kill NPC's to get his sec status back up. Think about the for a while. What ill effect occur to Lorth he gains 7 points of security status? The answer is nothing, I gain isk, lots of it in fact. However, the guy playing Lorth, is bored endlessly, by having to do this, and its the same with more or less every other player. Frankly we need anouther way/means of improving sec status other then the current, and only option of the grind. ------------- Recruit me
Montague Zooma Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.07.17 23:58:00 - [15] Originally by: xeom Yea its totaly fair to lock players out of game play.I mean what a good sales line! WELCOME TO EVE WHERE YOU'RE FREE! well except if you're a pirate in which case a whole expansion worth of content is lost to you.But no worries Eh!?! keep sending us those 15 dollars a month even tho nobody really goes into low-sec anymore. Or how about WELCOME TO EVE WHERE OTHER PLAYERS DESTROY ALL YOUR STUFF? Hunting NPCs and mining in low sec has its drawbacks...so does preying on the players who go there. If I choose to go into low sec, I won't complain about the pirates who attack me. The pirates shouldn't complain about the consequences either. We choose our own paths, it's not like the penalties weren't explained in advance.
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 00:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Montague Zooma Originally by: xeom Yea its totaly fair to lock players out of game play.I mean what a good sales line! WELCOME TO EVE WHERE YOU'RE FREE! well except if you're a pirate in which case a whole expansion worth of content is lost to you.But no worries Eh!?! keep sending us those 15 dollars a month even tho nobody really goes into low-sec anymore. Or how about WELCOME TO EVE WHERE OTHER PLAYERS DESTROY ALL YOUR STUFF? Hunting NPCs and mining in low sec has its drawbacks...so does preying on the players who go there. If I choose to go into low sec, I won't complain about the pirates who attack me. The pirates shouldn't complain about the consequences either. We choose our own paths, it's not like the penalties weren't explained in advance. And wrong! you see you're gameplay is not being limted.If anything its being enhanced!Low-sec is the area where you have to watch out and deal with people.But you can goto low-sec and with enough planing and witts and you normaly won't get killed.On the other hand i can do nothing of the sort to access new stuff in the xpac.Unless of course i stop pirating and spend 2 months WORKING NO FUN to raise my sec status.There is no risk v reward there.For us its just a plain grind,and even then i have to stop doing what i love! Really i have no need for high-sec except the market.But once kali starts pumping out new and fun things in high-sec thats Bullsh**,thats gameplay i cannot access it.nobody is stoping you from coming into low-sec.Concord is stoping my 110% from going into high-sec. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.18 00:55:00 - [17] Originally by: xeom Originally by: Montague Zooma Originally by: xeom Yea its totaly fair to lock players out of game play.I mean what a good sales line! WELCOME TO EVE WHERE YOU'RE FREE! well except if you're a pirate in which case a whole expansion worth of content is lost to you.But no worries Eh!?! keep sending us those 15 dollars a month even tho nobody really goes into low-sec anymore. Or how about WELCOME TO EVE WHERE OTHER PLAYERS DESTROY ALL YOUR STUFF? Hunting NPCs and mining in low sec has its drawbacks...so does preying on the players who go there. If I choose to go into low sec, I won't complain about the pirates who attack me. The pirates shouldn't complain about the consequences either. We choose our own paths, it's not like the penalties weren't explained in advance. And wrong! you see you're gameplay is not being limted.If anything its being enhanced!Low-sec is the area where you have to watch out and deal with people.But you can goto low-sec and with enough planing and witts and you normaly won't get killed.On the other hand i can do nothing of the sort to access new stuff in the xpac.Unless of course i stop pirating and spend 2 months WORKING NO FUN to raise my sec status.There is no risk v reward there.For us its just a plain grind,and even then i have to stop doing what i love! Really i have no need for high-sec except the market.But once kali starts pumping out new and fun things in high-sec thats Bullsh**,thats gameplay i cannot access it.nobody is stoping you from coming into low-sec.Concord is stoping my 110% from going into high-sec. Yup. CCP seem to make some very 'odd' game decisions. But usually only for a specific group of people.
Montague Zooma Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.07.18 01:22:00 - [18] Originally by: xeom And wrong! you see you're gameplay is not being limted.If anything its being enhanced!Low-sec is the area where you have to watch out and deal with people.But you can goto low-sec and with enough planing and witts and you normaly won't get killed.On the other hand i can do nothing of the sort to access new stuff in the xpac.Unless of course i stop pirating and spend 2 months WORKING NO FUN to raise my sec status.There is no risk v reward there.For us its just a plain grind,and even then i have to stop doing what i love! Hey! I'm enjoying hitting my head with a hammer...but I don't like the pain. Make the pain stop, just don't insist that I stop hitting my head with a hammer! OUCH!!! You can always prey on players in 0.0 where there is no security penalty.
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 01:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Montague Zooma Originally by: xeom And wrong! you see you're gameplay is not being limted.If anything its being enhanced!Low-sec is the area where you have to watch out and deal with people.But you can goto low-sec and with enough planing and witts and you normaly won't get killed.On the other hand i can do nothing of the sort to access new stuff in the xpac.Unless of course i stop pirating and spend 2 months WORKING NO FUN to raise my sec status.There is no risk v reward there.For us its just a plain grind,and even then i have to stop doing what i love! Hey! I'm enjoying hitting my head with a hammer...but I don't like the pain. Make the pain stop, just don't insist that I stop hitting my head with a hammer! OUCH!!! You can always prey on players in 0.0 where there is no security penalty. Great analogy BTW.Except this isn't real-life and its just a game for fun.Tell ya what show me 1 other class of player that has such limits inposed on him as we do and ill be quite.No body else has gameplay cut from them cut dry and simple.Also 0.0 combat is nothing like low-sec piracy k? CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
nahtoh Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.18 02:00:00 - [20] Edited by: nahtoh on 18/07/2006 02:00:53 Originally by: xeom Edited by: xeom on 18/07/2006 00:58:25 Originally by: Montague Zooma Originally by: xeom Yea its totaly fair to lock players out of game play.I mean what a good sales line! WELCOME TO EVE WHERE YOU'RE FREE! well except if you're a pirate in which case a whole expansion worth of content is lost to you.But no worries Eh!?! keep sending us those 15 dollars a month even tho nobody really goes into low-sec anymore. Or how about WELCOME TO EVE WHERE OTHER PLAYERS DESTROY ALL YOUR STUFF? Hunting NPCs and mining in low sec has its drawbacks...so does preying on the players who go there. If I choose to go into low sec, I won't complain about the pirates who attack me. The pirates shouldn't complain about the consequences either. We choose our own paths, it's not like the penalties weren't explained in advance. And wrong! you see you're gameplay is not being limted.If anything its being enhanced!Low-sec is the area where you have to watch out and deal with people.But you can goto low-sec and with enough planing and witts and you normaly won't get killed.On the other hand i can do nothing of the sort to access new stuff in the xpac.Unless of course i stop pirating and spend 2 months WORKING NO FUN to raise my sec status.There is no risk v reward there.For us its just a plain grind,and even then i have to stop doing what i love! Really i have no need for high-sec except the market.But once kali starts pumping out new and fun things in high-sec thats Bullsh**,thats gameplay i cannot access it.nobody is stoping you from coming into low-sec.Concord is stoping me 110% from going into high-sec. Tough nuggies? Cry Me A River Build A Bridge And Get Over It? Theres no agents in low sec that may have faction warfare missions? Nobody forced you to pop other players in empire space, deal with it. Now I thought that the attraction of eve was its harsh it can hurt type game play... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Carch	Posted - 2006.07.18 02:11:00 - [21] Edited by: Carch on 18/07/2006 02:12:22 Originally by: xeom Edited by: xeom on 18/07/2006 00:58:25 Originally by: Montague Zooma Originally by: xeom Yea its totaly fair to lock players out of game play.I mean what a good sales line! WELCOME TO EVE WHERE YOU'RE FREE! well except if you're a pirate in which case a whole expansion worth of content is lost to you.But no worries Eh!?! keep sending us those 15 dollars a month even tho nobody really goes into low-sec anymore. Or how about WELCOME TO EVE WHERE OTHER PLAYERS DESTROY ALL YOUR STUFF? Hunting NPCs and mining in low sec has its drawbacks...so does preying on the players who go there. If I choose to go into low sec, I won't complain about the pirates who attack me. The pirates shouldn't complain about the consequences either. We choose our own paths, it's not like the penalties weren't explained in advance. And wrong! you see you're gameplay is not being limted.If anything its being enhanced!Low-sec is the area where you have to watch out and deal with people.But you can goto low-sec and with enough planing and witts and you normaly won't get killed.On the other hand i can do nothing of the sort to access new stuff in the xpac.Unless of course i stop pirating and spend 2 months WORKING NO FUN to raise my sec status.There is no risk v reward there.For us its just a plain grind,and even then i have to stop doing what i love! Really i have no need for high-sec except the market.But once kali starts pumping out new and fun things in high-sec thats Bullsh**,thats gameplay i cannot access it.nobody is stoping you from coming into low-sec.Concord is stoping me 110% from going into high-sec. then quit really tired of the i cant go high sec, low sec, 0.0 areas whines from everyone in every thread
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 02:19:00 - [22] Edited by: xeom on 18/07/2006 02:21:14 Wow thats a really good rebutal...No wait I was reading one of my posts.You seem stuck on this idea that punishing the player is anything smart to do.First of,me blowing you up is part of the game.CCP love's that part hell read some of ovuers blogs.Here's the problem they can't hurt my gameplay because i won't be getting any.Plain simple nothing for me a whole Expansion pack zoomed passed like nothing. Im all for penalising me.Hell you can attack and pod me at any given time.But to tell me,O sorry you can't play that part of the game.Is just plain silly. Cool i poped some players so mabye i get less rewards or something.Mabye any of the other factions can attack me at any time whatever it my be!But to not give me gameplay at all is unbalanced.And i highly doubt there will be low-sec empire agents sence it seems to be PVP oriented.Also they are fighting for empire land. Overall people think we are not a real part of the game.And need to be punished.This is not true,sure penalise my CHARACTER,but not me the paying customer. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
nahtoh Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.18 02:31:00 - [23] Originally by: xeom Edited by: xeom on 18/07/2006 02:21:14 Wow thats a really good rebutal...No wait I was reading one of my posts.You seem stuck on this idea that punishing the player is anything smart to do.First of,me blowing you up is part of the game.CCP love's that part hell read some of ovuers blogs.Here's the problem they can't hurt my gameplay because i won't be getting any.Plain simple nothing for me a whole Expansion pack zoomed passed like nothing. Im all for penalising me.Hell you can attack and pod me at any given time.But to tell me,O sorry you can't play that part of the game.Is just plain silly. Cool i poped some players so mabye i get less rewards or something.Mabye any of the other factions can attack me at any time whatever it my be!But to not give me gameplay at all is unbalanced.And i highly doubt there will be low-sec empire agents sence it seems to be PVP oriented.Also they are fighting for empire land. Overall people think we are not a real part of the game.And need to be punished.This is not true,sure penalise my CHARACTER,but not me the paying customer. Hell use a trained up ALT to take part in it, thats not punishing the player. It may stop one of the players characters from taking part. Pirates do what they want to do, granted it does not appeal to me. But hey what ever floats your boat. But I place your points in the same catagory I do with "WHAAAA Why can't I get a Titian solo" Or "WTF outposts are 0.0 only that sucks!!!" You wanted to be a in game criminal? fine knock yourself out, but don't expect the lawgivers to give you a free access pass into highsec. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Carch	Posted - 2006.07.18 02:33:00 - [24] then think of the grind as a prison sentence to be served, that is if you really want to get back into high sec space. so that you can get to what ever that content is you want. you made the choises that put you where your at. be proud of em, wear em like a medal
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 02:50:00 - [25] Edited by: xeom on 18/07/2006 02:50:12 Whats that about titans & outposts?Sure a single person will never be able to build one alone.Let alone run it.But agian please please,show me another gameplay style that cuts you off from other parts of the game.Because neither of those do.The problem isn't team work or something hard i need to do.Its that i have to stop playing the way i like. "You get to do what ever you wan't to!" yea... I get to blow up people.NOBODY ELSE GETS TO! War's and 0.0 exist.Again i just prefer the pirate style of fighting.I'm not asking for 1.0 access just wan't to be able to use the new content.And why do i need a alt?The latest EON mag talks about no carears.And not forcing the player into certain mold.I think it needs a reprint thats clearly wrong. Also on the whole "raising you're sec status is like prison time." So let me get this straight.I should come home from work or school and then spend 4-5 hours each day working to raise my sec status?And then send some people 15 dollars a month for doing it? Really if someone came selling something like that to you're house im pretty sure you would have thrown him out.Not to mention kicked his a**. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Carch	Posted - 2006.07.18 02:55:00 - [26] whats your sec status now? you could have started to rat a bit at -5.01 or something instead of waiting untill its gonna take forever to get back to -4.99
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 03:03:00 - [27] im -9.0 and plan to go full blow -10. But the question is why do i have to work,NOT PLAY to raise it.further more why not create a system where i can only use the new content with restraints. Why do i have to stop my gameplay of choice to enjoy another part of eve?Who else has to do that? Someone give me a reason besides "uhhmmmmm because you killed pplz!" CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Carch	Posted - 2006.07.18 03:12:00 - [28] Originally by: xeom im -9.0 and plan to go full blow -10. But the question is why do i have to work,NOT PLAY to raise it.further more why not create a system where i can only use the new content with restraints. Why do i have to stop my gameplay of choice to enjoy another part of eve?Who else has to do that? Someone give me a reason besides "uhhmmmmm because you killed pplz!" i think youll have to go to m0o's complaint department for that anser. as a mission runner im cut off from all minmatar space, i mean sheesh cant they take a joke? (i knew the conseqences and it dont bother me, you know the conseqences of being -9 and plan to go farther)
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 03:17:00 - [29] You're right nobody is forced to grind,and i never plan to.The problem is not going into high-sec for easy kills. I wan't to be able to do the new kali warfare(PVP).And fight for a faction! Unless i can sign up for a pirate faction or something ,gameplay is simply not accessable to me. Again why a alt? You guys just keep coming up with the same thing. "STOP CRYING YOU KILLED PEOPLE LIVE WITH IT YOU DONT GET THE NEW GAMEPLAY!" Again why? CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 03:19:00 - [30] Great mate now i wana be able to go -10 with amarr to and fight for the minmatar faction.Don't see what the problem is,its still going to be PVP. Also you're gameplay is not being cut off missions are basicly the same for all the sides.Change a few names around and such but you still get the thing. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.18 03:32:00 - [31] Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: xeom Edited by: xeom on 18/07/2006 02:21:14 Wow thats a really good rebutal...No wait I was reading one of my posts.You seem stuck on this idea that punishing the player is anything smart to do.First of,me blowing you up is part of the game.CCP love's that part hell read some of ovuers blogs.Here's the problem they can't hurt my gameplay because i won't be getting any.Plain simple nothing for me a whole Expansion pack zoomed passed like nothing. Im all for penalising me.Hell you can attack and pod me at any given time.But to tell me,O sorry you can't play that part of the game.Is just plain silly. Cool i poped some players so mabye i get less rewards or something.Mabye any of the other factions can attack me at any time whatever it my be!But to not give me gameplay at all is unbalanced.And i highly doubt there will be low-sec empire agents sence it seems to be PVP oriented.Also they are fighting for empire land. Overall people think we are not a real part of the game.And need to be punished.This is not true,sure penalise my CHARACTER,but not me the paying customer. Hell use a trained up ALT to take part in it, thats not punishing the player. It may stop one of the players characters from taking part. ... You wanted to be a in game criminal? fine knock yourself out, but don't expect the lawgivers to give you a free access pass into highsec. And here we have the very quintessential stupidity. CPP punishes the pirate who uses his main. Meanwhile Mr. Carebear Roid Hugger who hangs out in high sec and Mr. Carebear Herd Lover who hangs out in 0.0 both have 'Piwate Alts' that they use without any consequence to gank whoever they like. After all they can log off anytime and go play High Sec Roid Hugging or 0.0 Herd Burgling in perfect safety. Yeah thats the solution. If your a complete idiot it is.
Allaina Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.18 03:34:00 - [32] Originally by: xeom You're right nobody is forced to grind,and i never plan to.The problem is not going into high-sec for easy kills. I want a Caldari Navy Raven but I don't want to have to grind Caldari Navy Missions. Quote: I wan't to be able to do the new kali warfare(PVP).And fight for a faction! Unless i can sign up for a pirate faction or something ,gameplay is simply not accessable to me. I want to fight with this char, but this char is a hauler/scientist. PvP gameplay is simply not accessable to this char. Did CCP cut off this game content or did I? Did CCP cut off your factional warfare content or did you? Quote: Again why a alt? See above, thats why an alt. Xeom can be your pirate char and you can make a factional alt. Do want xeom to be able to build Tech 2 ships? Did CCP cut you off from that game play too? Quote: You guys just keep coming up with the same thing. "STOP CRYING YOU KILLED PEOPLE LIVE WITH IT YOU DONT GET THE NEW GAMEPLAY!" Again why? Pretty much because every other person has to live with their ingame actions on their characters yet you want to be exempt. Again, did CCP cut off from gameplay or did you?
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 03:44:00 - [33] Acctualy you can go ahead and just buy the cald navy raven,but i fail to see the point of that line.As thats not cutting you off from gameplay. TBH i hate alts and thats why i don't plan to get one.I wan't to play as xeom. Hmm what?you're science building char can't PVP? Well quick fix matey,train any frigate skill to lvl 4 and small guns too.And boom you can pvp!(i only say lvl 4 because they are really to crapy to fly before). alt alt alt,why why why?Everyone has to live with there in-game actions? Please show me how johny 0.0 or bob roid hugger have to worry about anything.As long as they avoid becoming me their fine.They may have to deal with ****ing of other corps and such but not with a npc god faction. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Carch	Posted - 2006.07.18 03:46:00 - [34] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: xeom Edited by: xeom on 18/07/2006 02:21:14 Wow thats a really good rebutal...No wait I was reading one of my posts.You seem stuck on this idea that punishing the player is anything smart to do.First of,me blowing you up is part of the game.CCP love's that part hell read some of ovuers blogs.Here's the problem they can't hurt my gameplay because i won't be getting any.Plain simple nothing for me a whole Expansion pack zoomed passed like nothing. Im all for penalising me.Hell you can attack and pod me at any given time.But to tell me,O sorry you can't play that part of the game.Is just plain silly. Cool i poped some players so mabye i get less rewards or something.Mabye any of the other factions can attack me at any time whatever it my be!But to not give me gameplay at all is unbalanced.And i highly doubt there will be low-sec empire agents sence it seems to be PVP oriented.Also they are fighting for empire land. Overall people think we are not a real part of the game.And need to be punished.This is not true,sure penalise my CHARACTER,but not me the paying customer. Hell use a trained up ALT to take part in it, thats not punishing the player. It may stop one of the players characters from taking part. ... You wanted to be a in game criminal? fine knock yourself out, but don't expect the lawgivers to give you a free access pass into highsec. And here we have the very quintessential stupidity. CPP punishes the pirate who uses his main. Meanwhile Mr. Carebear Roid Hugger who hangs out in high sec and Mr. Carebear Herd Lover who hangs out in 0.0 both have 'Piwate Alts' that they use without any consequence to gank whoever they like. After all they can log off anytime and go play High Sec Roid Hugging or 0.0 Herd Burgling in perfect safety. Yeah thats the solution. If your a complete idiot it is. hey im all for getting rid of alts, instas, chokepoints, but this is what ccp allows and is what we all have to deal with
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.18 04:04:00 - [35] Originally by: Allaina Originally by: xeom You're right nobody is forced to grind,and i never plan to.The problem is not going into high-sec for easy kills. I want a Caldari Navy Raven but I don't want to have to grind Caldari Navy Missions. Quote: I wan't to be able to do the new kali warfare(PVP).And fight for a faction! Unless i can sign up for a pirate faction or something ,gameplay is simply not accessable to me. I want to fight with this char, but this char is a hauler/scientist. PvP gameplay is simply not accessable to this char. Did CCP cut off this game content or did I? Did CCP cut off your factional warfare content or did you? Quote: Again why a alt? See above, thats why an alt. Xeom can be your pirate char and you can make a factional alt. Do want xeom to be able to build Tech 2 ships? Did CCP cut you off from that game play too? Quote: You guys just keep coming up with the same thing. "STOP CRYING YOU KILLED PEOPLE LIVE WITH IT YOU DONT GET THE NEW GAMEPLAY!" Again why? Pretty much because every other person has to live with their ingame actions on their characters yet you want to be exempt. Again, did CCP cut off from gameplay or did you? Having to use alts to experience EvE is retarded. Many think its fine to meta-game by using alt scouts, and alt marketers, and alt scientists, alt forum *****s and alt researchers. I disagree. You tell this guy to 'live with the consequences' but then you suggest he 'use an alt' to bypass them? This meta-gaming is unnecessary. If the guy is playing by the rules and paying CCP as much money as you and I then he deserves as a customer to experience the full content. Low sec Pirates are a prime example of how CCP shat on part of its playerbase. As are people who dont like to sit in alliances like herd animals. Your alt solution is not a solution at all, its most probably the cause of the problem in the first place - the use of alts to gank and camp without consequence causing CCP to nerf the game and geniune pirates in the process.
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 04:04:00 - [36] I wana state again the current system is FINE!!! Theres nothing in high-sec right now that is not offered in low-sec.Well at least anything CCP controls(not like the player driven crappy market in low-sec). The problem comes with the factional warfare.You make it unbalanced,and simply giving everyone else more gameplay options. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Lorth Synchro.	Posted - 2006.07.18 04:13:00 - [37] Did any one read my post on the last page? You all seem to be ignoring it. ------------- Recruit me
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 04:28:00 - [38] Yea lorth i agree a new way to raise the sec status should happen.But also a way to mabye not have to raise it and still fight for the faction of my choosing. The question is how?Personaly i think the upcoming changes would work fine with removing concord.And giving the navys more power.So i could be -9 to all races except minmatar and be fine in there space. We can't simply make it bribing concord or something.Because then the richest get of easy.while most of us real poor pirate's(well not that poor 0.o) non-alts,struggle. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Lorth Synchro.	Posted - 2006.07.18 04:34:00 - [39] TBH in the short time that I've been thinking of it, I can't think of an unbiased fair way to raise sec status. Maybe someone smarter then me can. But what will forever bother me is the endless swarm of people who wish to punish the player, and not the charactor, for actions inside the game. No, someone should not be forced into doing an activity that they find dull, because of activitys that are perfectly within the rules of the game. Further, since the activity, while it punishes the player, at the same time it benifits the charactor. Which in and of it self it just tottaly out of wack. What kind of in game punishment, is it, if the only one feeling the strain is the out of game, guy behind the keyboard? ------------- Recruit me
Carch	Posted - 2006.07.18 04:42:00 - [40] Edited by: Carch on 18/07/2006 04:44:36 Originally by: Lorth Did any one read my post on the last page? You all seem to be ignoring it. not ignoring you lorth, i just dont know that much about factional warfare yet. seems your saying its a "catch 22" ie you want factional warfare but your gonna have to go to high sec space to do it, but as soon as you do youll be shot by concord. my question would be is factional warfare confind to high sec space or will it also be in low sec space, is it caused by the way the highway is set up? whats causing the problem? how could you get what you want without going to high sec space? low sec space highway loop? agents? what? im really gonna have to go read about factional warfare but i dont think ya should be allowed back into high sec space with your security status as it is. edit: sorry there lorth, thought it was xenon that posted that, im tired
Montague Zooma Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.07.18 05:14:00 - [41] Originally by: xeom Except this isn't real-life and its just a game for fun. That's what all the despised "carebears" say, though. "Boohoo, all the good minerals are in low sec or 0.0, why can't I mine there just as safely as I do in high sec? It's just a game, I'm trying to have fun." Just because it's a game doesn't mean it shouldn't have rules. Rules define a game. Piracy has negative consequences...it's how the game is designed. Low sec piracy has negative consequences that are made quite plain. It's not like you pod one player in Empire and are forever damned. You see your sec status drop and know if you continue to initiate aggression in low sec that you will lose access to higher security systems. Yet you still continue to hit yourself in the head with that hammer. Quote: Tell ya what show me 1 other class of player that has such limits inposed on him as we do and ill be quite. No body else has gameplay cut from them cut dry and simple. I know aggressive anti-pirates who suffer the same limitations that you do. They knew the job was dangerous when they took it. Mission runners also find things closed off to them because of the faction hits they take. Quote: Also 0.0 combat is nothing like low-sec piracy k? That's true. You can generally find easier targets in low sec than in 0.0. The sec hits and gate guns are there to offset that.
rodgerd Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.18 05:18:00 - [42] Originally by: Montague Zooma Originally by: xeom Except this isn't real-life and its just a game for fun. That's what all the despised "carebears" say, though. "Boohoo, all the good minerals are in low sec or 0.0, why can't I mine there just as safely as I do in high sec? It's just a game, I'm trying to have fun." [...] Low sec piracy has negative consequences that are made quite plain. [...] Yet you still continue to hit yourself in the head with that hammer. /signed What a pack of whiners.
Pax Uranus Protoculture Club	Posted - 2006.07.18 06:24:00 - [43] Originally by: xeom Also 0.0 combat is nothing like low-sec piracy k? OMG! Must be hacks or exploits. People in 0.0 are probably much more likely to fight back? (Isn't it sort of funny when the average lowsec pirate's sack seems to shrivel up when they encounter actual PvPers instead of the random oblivious soft-target player wandering through lowsec?) Anywaays, as much as I can agree with Lorth pointing out that there's something intuitively off about the system, it still does adheres to a basic tenet of player choice. Every player for the most part, based on what paths they choose to walk down in Eve, are constrained in one form or other by any of a number of systems or situations - PC and/or NPC. This is the same basic rant that we're seeing elsewhere for other topics, just worded differently and aimed at a new topic. Aka: What? There are consequences to my actions? WTF? The game's broken!
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.18 06:35:00 - [44] Originally by: Pax Uranus This is the same basic rant that we're seeing elsewhere for other topics, just worded differently and aimed at a new topic. Aka: What? There are consequences to my actions? WTF? The game's broken! The same could be said of the anti-pirates here. Somebody killed me. Punish him CCP because I afraid to or I cant. Player is > then NPC and should be the ones to punish the pirate. Let him into high sec so he can be punished.
Pax Uranus Protoculture Club	Posted - 2006.07.18 07:10:00 - [45] That's an interesting part of my post to quote, since it doesn't roll with your attempted point at all (depending on timezones, it could be really late or early so it's understandable if the logic centers aren't working). The point of what you quoted of mine goes something like this, and it's made generic for easier comprehension and to show how it can and does apply to a whole lot of things in Eve: 1) Action X leads to Result Y 2a) If you don't want Result Y, don't do Action X 2b) If you don't particularly care about Result Y, go ahead and do Action X It's a really basic concept to grasp, and it applies to just about everything in- and out-of-game. Strangely enough, it still seems to elude people.
Ky'var Traven	Posted - 2006.07.18 07:46:00 - [46] I love these posts, pirate whining because they can't get into high sec and gank whom ever they please with impunity. All I see here is someone trying to justify why they should not be punished for their in game actions.
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.18 08:22:00 - [47] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 18/07/2006 08:23:03 Originally by: Pax Uranus That's an interesting part of my post to quote, since it doesn't roll with your attempted point at all (depending on timezones, it could be really late or early so it's understandable if the logic centers aren't working). The point of what you quoted of mine goes something like this, and it's made generic for easier comprehension and to show how it can and does apply to a whole lot of things in Eve: 1) Action X leads to Result Y 2a) If you don't want Result Y, don't do Action X 2b) If you don't particularly care about Result Y, go ahead and do Action X It's a really basic concept to grasp, and it applies to just about everything in- and out-of-game. Strangely enough, it still seems to elude people. I agree. 1) Action X leads to Result Y - Going into low sec may get you killed. 2a) If you dont want Result Y, Dont do Action X 2b) If you dont particularly care about result Y, go ahead and do Action X Added 3) If you do Action X and Result Y happens, dont expect CCP and NPCs to help by ruining someone elses gameplay. It was your choice. Yep. Quite simple really.
Nicholai Pestot Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.18 08:36:00 - [48] A single weekend of ratting in syndicate in my trusty taranis of NPC farmage netted me a 2.3 gain in sec status (not to mention 50 million in npc bounty and another 150 million in faction loot). I honestly cant see the problem. If you want an 'RP' method of hi-sec access, the ability to apply to be a privateer could be introduced. You would need to have a standing of greater than 5 with one of the Empires to apply for this, and would be allowed to enter their hi-sec space only.There would be an initial price for applying for this (50 million say) and a 15 million a week charge.You would still be an outlaw so would still be a viable target to all, and would still suffer the attentions of concord/gate turrets for attacking people. You would immediatly loose your rights as a privateer if you aggress anyone of greater than +1 standing with that empire, immediatly suffering a large finacial penaulty as your assets are frozen by your home empire...say another immediate loss of 50 million. Could be a prelude to Kali factional warfare, and would fit the current 'heating up' of the cold war quite well ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete
Avon Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.18 08:50:00 - [49] They should bring back Concord agents to help with sec, but with a twist. The 'pirate' goes to the Concord agent to fix his sec. The agent gives him a mission. This mission involves an iteron mk V, a hold full of zydrine, a huge amount of collateral, and a trip across empire space with Concord immunity. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.07.18 09:05:00 - [50] lol, whining pirates.
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.18 09:10:00 - [51] Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 18/07/2006 09:11:01 Originally by: Haks'he Lirky You used to be able to bribe concord agents and boost your sec rating, but pirates just got in pods and flown to the agents and paid to have there sec increased again. Simple solution: Make agents not talk to someone with a status lower than x. Eve is prolly the only game where one can tank his way through an Empire that is p***ed off beyond belief, evade the geese and arrows and finally arrive at a station to have a friendly chat with some NPC who offers them a cup of tea and a mission. But thats just my understanding, I never had that bad sec status but I understand that even with -10 you can still talk to a faction's agents and that officially blows. ----------------------------------------------------- "At least freelancer keeps the physics realistic." -- SINKFIST
Blighter	Posted - 2006.07.18 10:18:00 - [52] I always though there should be a reperations system in place, where if you kill someone, you can pay them isk to have the sec hit wiped. How much isk, though, is up to the victim. He gets his isk, and repreives you, and you lose the sec hit.
nahtoh Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.18 10:47:00 - [53] Originally by: Lorth TBH in the short time that I've been thinking of it, I can't think of an unbiased fair way to raise sec status. Maybe someone smarter then me can. But what will forever bother me is the endless swarm of people who wish to punish the player, and not the charactor, for actions inside the game. No, someone should not be forced into doing an activity that they find dull, because of activitys that are perfectly within the rules of the game. Further, since the activity, while it punishes the player, at the same time it benifits the charactor. Which in and of it self it just tottaly out of wack. What kind of in game punishment, is it, if the only one feeling the strain is the out of game, guy behind the keyboard? And how can you punish the character but not the player unless Alts are used? Persoanlly I only use one character so thats not my prefered way of dealing with it. But it is a way of dealing with it. Yes and while the pirating is allowed by the game mechanics it has blance points...ie do it in range of sentry guns you get shot, you lose sec rating... Sorry but not everything in eve is fixed by 15 mins of warping between Safe Spots... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
D'Mur Pilru	Posted - 2006.07.18 11:09:00 - [54] Originally by: xeom But the question is why do i have to work,NOT PLAY to raise it.further more why not create a system where i can only use the new content with restraints. Why do i have to stop my gameplay of choice to enjoy another part of eve?Who else has to do that? Someone give me a reason besides "uhhmmmmm because you killed pplz!" Actually, that's quite a good reason. You don't like to grind you say. Boohoo, sorry little you. I can't count the hours spend grinding and mining early in my Eve life, because some a-hole pirate decided it would be fun to shoot a frigate or cruiser. You shoot people, destroy all they have, set them back in the game, but if you then have to spend some time to achieve something, you want it handed to you. Very sound reasoning indeed. Kudos to you. Pirates in Eve...they're like bankrobbers complaining they can't open a savings account
Melkor Bloodaxe Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.18 11:48:00 - [55] The point is: Why should a pirate have to grind his way to a higher sec-stat? Example (not true atm): I'm a pirate (this one is true though...), sec-stat=-10 my wallet contains 1Billion ISK. Why then is the only way to raise my sec-stat to grind NPC's??? Why can't I just pay to raise my sec-stat? Why can't I just buy a safetypass through high-sec? I hear carebears say: "But I can't go safely to 0.0 either, cos I will get shot..." Remember: You can ALWAYS go to 0.0, cos the only one who will kill you is a real-player pirate (pay attention and you survive). However, with -10 you will instantly lose your ship by CONCORD in high-sec space. --- Originally by: HippoKing Since when is justified killing more fun than random killing?
Brannor McThife Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.18 12:56:00 - [56] Originally by: D'Mur Pilru Pirates in Eve...they're like bankrobbers complaining they can't open a savings account QFT. My word. What a lot of whiners. You chose to become a criminal...live with it. The fact that you can actually redeem yourself AT ALL (grinding NPCs) is a blessing. I'd be willing to campaign that your sec status slowly improve towards -3.0. Not 0.0, as you need to do some work before being allowed back into 0.9/1.0 space, after all, you have a criminal record, and they (Concord) want to keep newbie pilots safe. This improving will be based on you "doing time" by NOT attacking/destroying any other positive standing pilots - call it a probation period. During this time, any aggressive (not defensive) action taken on your behalf in any space other than 0.0, will result in massive negative hits. If you want your sec rating back, you have to show that you MEAN IT. Otherwise, go cry on your fellow gankers' shoulders. -G Absolution: 150% damage of Zealot Astarte: 140% damage of Deimos Sleipnir: 140% damage of Vagabond Nighthawk: 90% damage of Cerberus
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.07.18 13:03:00 - [57] Originally by: Melkor Bloodaxe The point is: Why should a pirate have to grind his way to a higher sec-stat? Example (not true atm): I'm a pirate (this one is true though...), sec-stat=-10 my wallet contains 1Billion ISK. Why then is the only way to raise my sec-stat to grind NPC's??? Why can't I just pay to raise my sec-stat? Why can't I just buy a safetypass through high-sec? I hear carebears say: "But I can't go safely to 0.0 either, cos I will get shot..." Remember: You can ALWAYS go to 0.0, cos the only one who will kill you is a real-player pirate (pay attention and you survive). However, with -10 you will instantly lose your ship by CONCORD in high-sec space. Do you think the likes of Pablo Escobar could just have given the US government a billion dollars to buy off any criminal charges? You should be happy you actually have a way to redeem your character, CCP is even so nice as to make it a very profitable way. Grinding rats might be boring, but it makes you cash and it improves sec rating. CCP is too friendly!
Jimmycs83 The Exiles	Posted - 2006.07.18 13:43:00 - [58] yeah the system is ok atm ... apart from the fact that you can completely avoid any punishment by the use of an alt tbh just let pirates into high-sec where they can be shot at by everyone... then maybe some of the carebears might actually find a reason to do some real anti-pirate stuff which is the only way a pirate should really be getting punished. And as for high sec ganking .. well it happens anyway and imo is the fault of the noob who puts billions of isk into a T1 hauler and expects not to die ... someday they will learn
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 14:29:00 - [59] Ok,i want you guys to say it to yourselfs 10 times,its just a game.Then if you still don't get it go outside and keep repeating it till you do. Trust me i have no desire in high-sec,NON what so ever.The only thing i wan't is factional warfare.Everyone else gets to get but pirates?!?! wha? Again i can do anything else i wan't with out problems with enough teamwork and play.My problem is just because i decide to do something a certian way doesn't mean a whole expansion should be without access to me. "But but..what about outposts and motherships an.." NO LISTEN LISTEN,Anyone can go out and do those things and still continue on with their gameplay.I can't do factional warfare and still play the way i want to. Agian current system is fine.Problem is a whole expansion worth of stuff is gone.I mean if i can fight with the pirate factions instead or something great.I just wan't want to be treated LIKE THE REST OF THE PAYING COSTUMERS! and get the same ammount of gameplay everyone else gets. Please get over the caracal you lost back when you were a noob ok.Its a game and everyone deserves the same gameplay chances. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
nahtoh Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.18 14:32:00 - [60] Originally by: xeom Trust me i have no desire in high-sec,NON what so ever.The only thing i wan't is factional warfare.Everyone else gets to get but pirates?!?! Agian current system is fine.Problem is a whole expansion worth of stuff is gone.I mean if i can fight with the pirate factions instead or something great.I just wan't want to be treated LIKE THE REST OF THE PAYING COSTUMERS! and get the same ammount of gameplay everyone else gets. Please get over the caracal you lost back when you were a noob ok.Its a game and everyone deserves the same gameplay chances. Till you can prove you can't do factional warfare in lowsec your prefred area to operate in stop whinning... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Lala Ru	Posted - 2006.07.18 16:17:00 - [61] Originally by: xeom "But but..what about outposts and motherships an.." NO LISTEN LISTEN,Anyone can go out and do those things and still continue on with their gameplay.I can't do factional warfare and still play the way i want to. Oh REALLY? Wow, I'll just go out and build me a mothership then. It's not like building a mothership required lots of grinding, mining, and generally a ton of effort to build. How much game time and resources do you think is sunk into the construction of a mothership? Meanwhile, you actualy GAIN loot and bounties when ratting.
Pax Uranus Protoculture Club	Posted - 2006.07.18 16:25:00 - [62] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 18/07/2006 08:23:03 Originally by: Pax Uranus That's an interesting part of my post to quote, since it doesn't roll with your attempted point at all (depending on timezones, it could be really late or early so it's understandable if the logic centers aren't working). The point of what you quoted of mine goes something like this, and it's made generic for easier comprehension and to show how it can and does apply to a whole lot of things in Eve: 1) Action X leads to Result Y 2a) If you don't want Result Y, don't do Action X 2b) If you don't particularly care about Result Y, go ahead and do Action X It's a really basic concept to grasp, and it applies to just about everything in- and out-of-game. Strangely enough, it still seems to elude people. I agree. 1) Action X leads to Result Y - Going into low sec may get you killed. 2a) If you dont want Result Y, Dont do Action X 2b) If you dont particularly care about result Y, go ahead and do Action X Added 3) If you do Action X and Result Y happens, dont expect CCP and NPCs to help by ruining someone elses gameplay. It was your choice. Yep. Quite simple really. Congratulations - I think that you're actually starting to make some progress. Indeed, if someone wanders into 0.0 or lowsec, they accept the risk that game design and game mechanics allows for the very real possibility that someone will aggress and perform unspeakable acts upon them. So, by taking Action X (in this case, going into less secure space) they accept that Result Y (things that will make them cry) can and probably will happen. Game design and mechanics also dictate that if someone aggresses them in lowsec, that there will be ramifications as well. Oh my, consequences. However, in this case the current argument seems to be that these consequences are ruining someone's gameplay. Note the irony. Anyhow, I'm happy that you were able to make the basic causality connection at least. Here's to hoping that even more out there can take that tiny, but significant, first intellectual step. Make no mistake, whenever someone comes on the forums and cries about how Eve is filled with griefers and gankers because they just got killed in lowsec by some very mean pirates - well, if you look around you'll notice that people deride them as well. There's a pattern here and it doesn't take long to figure out. And really, who says that the Pirate factions won't have factional warfare as well? I mean, duh, look at the Kali-shift RP/Event stuff that's been going on for the last bunch of months. Surprise! It's all pretty much been Pirate faction-based!
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.18 20:39:00 - [63] Originally by: Pax Uranus Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 18/07/2006 08:23:03 Originally by: Pax Uranus That's an interesting part of my post to quote, since it doesn't roll with your attempted point at all (depending on timezones, it could be really late or early so it's understandable if the logic centers aren't working). The point of what you quoted of mine goes something like this, and it's made generic for easier comprehension and to show how it can and does apply to a whole lot of things in Eve: 1) Action X leads to Result Y 2a) If you don't want Result Y, don't do Action X 2b) If you don't particularly care about Result Y, go ahead and do Action X It's a really basic concept to grasp, and it applies to just about everything in- and out-of-game. Strangely enough, it still seems to elude people. I agree. 1) Action X leads to Result Y - Going into low sec may get you killed. 2a) If you dont want Result Y, Dont do Action X 2b) If you dont particularly care about result Y, go ahead and do Action X Added 3) If you do Action X and Result Y happens, dont expect CCP and NPCs to help by ruining someone elses gameplay. It was your choice. Yep. Quite simple really. Congratulations - I think that you're actually starting to make some progress. Indeed, if someone wanders into 0.0 or lowsec, they accept the risk that game design and game mechanics allows for the very real possibility that someone will aggress and perform unspeakable acts upon them. So, by taking Action X (in this case, going into less secure space) they accept that Result Y (things that will make them cry) can and probably will happen. Game design and mechanics also dictate that if someone aggresses them in lowsec, that there will be ramifications as well. Oh my, consequences. However, in this case the current argument seems to be that these consequences are ruining someone's gameplay. Note the irony. Anyhow, I'm happy that you were able to make the basic causality connection at least. Here's to hoping that even more out there can take that tiny, but significant, first intellectual step. Make no mistake, whenever someone comes on the forums and cries about how Eve is filled with griefers and gankers because they just got killed in lowsec by some very mean pirates - well, if you look around you'll notice that people deride them as well. There's a pattern here and it doesn't take long to figure out. And really, who says that the Pirate factions won't have factional warfare as well? I mean, duh, look at the Kali-shift RP/Event stuff that's been going on for the last bunch of months. Surprise! It's all pretty much been Pirate faction-based! Your not taking into account the changes which have occurred over the years. EvE was originally much easier and more enjoyable to pirate in. Your saying that because the 4 year old mechanics are implemented they shouldnt be changed to be balanced with the rest of the evolving game? I disagree.
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.18 21:19:00 - [64] Hey as long as i get factional warfare coolsville.The problem is they only keep mentioning the main empires.Pirate factinal warfare can't work because players control that(0.0).And yes low-sec is still controled by the empires not NPC pirate factions. Agian with the mothership yes it takes tons of work ,BUT GUESS WHAT?! at the end of the day you can go ahead and do anything else you wan't.No limits imposed on you. Then again a pirate gets no such thing.Just because you can die in low-sec and 0.0 does not equal us going into high-sec.BECAUSE WE CAN'T EVER!There is no ammount of stratagy or cunny i can use to escape this. And finaly ruining game play? Are you guys dense? Its the intended gameplay for low-sec and 0.0.Nobody is ruining you're gameplay by killing you.Infact like i said before,they are enhancing it. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Pax Uranus Protoculture Club	Posted - 2006.07.19 00:00:00 - [65] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Your not taking into account the changes which have occurred over the years. EvE was originally much easier and more enjoyable to pirate in. Your saying that because the 4 year old mechanics are implemented they shouldnt be changed to be balanced with the rest of the evolving game? I disagree. One step forward, two steps back. It's ok, someday comprehension will be all sorted. I'm not really taking into account changes over the last few years because it's not directly related to my point at all. Changes themselves aren't that material, they simply set new guidelines by which causality then will exist. I simply find it highly entertaining and amusing when players don't or can't acknowledge the "why's" of how things unfold. It's akin to watching lab rats or something of the sort. One of the ironies of this all is that you're not actually really discussing this at the same level. You're focused on the base construct, while I have been discussing the actual process and flow. The great rub of it all is that it's very possible that I, when looking at the construct, might agree that certain aspects could use sprucing up here or there (but most likely not for the same reasons). The goal that you should work towards then is being able to approach a problem from multiple levels and angles. Try to understand what is actually being set forth before you. Then, you may be able to snatch this pebble from my palm. Just to make this simpler, since part of the disconnect might be lack of comprehension, you're focusing primarily on the existing game design/mechanic and ruleset while I'm laughing at people's stupidity and inability to grasp consequences when playing by those mechanics/rules. Do you now begin to grasp how the actual construct doesn't have much impact to what I'm trying to point out regarding the process/flow?
Scoundrelus The Black Fleet	Posted - 2006.07.19 00:03:00 - [66] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Darkon Gatland ...a good easy way to reset your security to 0.0. Nobody's ever yet explained to me why there should be one. We have to live with the consequences of our actions: why shouldn't pirates have to live with theirs? What actions? Mining? Whats the consequence? Having money? Being bored? ===============================================
mimik	Posted - 2006.07.19 00:34:00 - [67] Originally by: xeom Hey as long as i get factional warfare coolsville.The problem is they only keep mentioning the main empires.Pirate factinal warfare can't work because players control that(0.0).And yes low-sec is still controled by the empires not NPC pirate factions. Agian with the mothership yes it takes tons of work ,BUT GUESS WHAT?! at the end of the day you can go ahead and do anything else you wan't.No limits imposed on you. Then again a pirate gets no such thing.Just because you can die in low-sec and 0.0 does not equal us going into high-sec.BECAUSE WE CAN'T EVER!There is no ammount of stratagy or cunny i can use to escape this. And finaly ruining game play? Are you guys dense? Its the intended gameplay for low-sec and 0.0.Nobody is ruining you're gameplay by killing you.Infact like i said before,they are enhancing it. sorry but there is a huge contradiction in your post here and most of the others u have made in this thread. u keep saying people can choose to have a mothership or build an outpost if they want to and that its only their choices that mean they cant. however for them to get a mothership or a titan or build an outpost they would have to spend months mining or ratting to make isk or whatever other method they need. they dont get it handed to them on a plate. u seem to be wanting to open up content that might or might not be restricted from u without having to do anything. its like me saying to ccp i only have 5mill isk but i dont want to spend time making money so give me an outpost please. if i want to get access to that content i have to EARN it by my in-game actions. u just seem to want it given to u.
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.19 00:47:00 - [68] "Indeed, if someone wanders into 0.0 or lowsec, they accept the risk that game design and game mechanics allows for the very real possibility that someone will aggress and perform unspeakable acts upon them. So, by taking Action X (in this case, going into less secure space) they accept that Result Y (things that will make them cry) can and probably will happen." Very true and such is the desired gameplay of eve.But here's the key word in all that "might".They might NPC for 3 hours and never get ganked.Then agian the first jump in they could get ganked.But with some planing and effort the odd's tip in favor of player. And such is the point of eve using you're knowledge and witt's can really take you places.But as a pirate there is nothing i can do to "out smart" concord.No ammount of planing is going to get me past them.You mention the higher end gameplay and why certain things work the way they do.Yet piracy has a problem nobody else suffers from. I really don't have a problem with this.As its clear without concord it would be very hard to stop us from killing a lot of easy targets.And there clearly needs to be places for new players.The problem comes with kali and the factional warfare.This gameplay is not reachable by us with low standings with concord. All were asking for is the same gameplay opportunities everyone else gets.Nothing more nothing less.I accept when i get ganked and i also gank that has nothing to do with this. On a side note raising ones sec status is also something that is not desirable.In a game that is always shouting about how much it rules because theres no grinding.I find it funny how to leave one of the main professions it takes quite a bit.Clearly a player should not be able to go from -10 back to -1.89 in a day.But weeks if not months of boring NPCing is clearly not the answer.Or at least there should be some other options. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.19 04:18:00 - [69] Originally by: Pax Uranus Originally by: Infinity Ziona Your not taking into account the changes which have occurred over the years. EvE was originally much easier and more enjoyable to pirate in. Your saying that because the 4 year old mechanics are implemented they shouldnt be changed to be balanced with the rest of the evolving game? I disagree. One step forward, two steps back. It's ok, someday comprehension will be all sorted. I'm not really taking into account changes over the last few years because it's not directly related to my point at all. Changes themselves aren't that material, they simply set new guidelines by which causality then will exist. I simply find it highly entertaining and amusing when players don't or can't acknowledge the "why's" of how things unfold. It's akin to watching lab rats or something of the sort. One of the ironies of this all is that you're not actually really discussing this at the same level. You're focused on the base construct, while I have been discussing the actual process and flow. The great rub of it all is that it's very possible that I, when looking at the construct, might agree that certain aspects could use sprucing up here or there (but most likely not for the same reasons). The goal that you should work towards then is being able to approach a problem from multiple levels and angles. Try to understand what is actually being set forth before you. Then, you may be able to snatch this pebble from my palm. Just to make this simpler, since part of the disconnect might be lack of comprehension, you're focusing primarily on the existing game design/mechanic and ruleset while I'm laughing at people's stupidity and inability to grasp consequences when playing by those mechanics/rules. Do you now begin to grasp how the actual construct doesn't have much impact to what I'm trying to point out regarding the process/flow? I am sure both you and I could spend all day writing posts made of the contents of various thesauruses and Collins Pocket Dictionaries but I really dont want to cause I really dont give a flying feck about you or your writing skills or your ego. If you want to pose as a phantom genius go and find a target thats at least half as witty as yourself. Now back to the REAL discussion, which was never about 'not considering the mechanics' or 'laughing at idiots' or YOU. Thank You
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.19 04:29:00 - [70] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 19/07/2006 04:30:32 Originally by: xeom "Indeed, if someone wanders into 0.0 or lowsec, they accept the risk that game design and game mechanics allows for the very real possibility that someone will aggress and perform unspeakable acts upon them. So, by taking Action X (in this case, going into less secure space) they accept that Result Y (things that will make them cry) can and probably will happen." Very true and such is the desired gameplay of eve.But here's the key word in all that "might".They might NPC for 3 hours and never get ganked.Then agian the first jump in they could get ganked.But with some planing and effort the odd's tip in favor of player. And such is the point of eve using you're knowledge and witt's can really take you places.But as a pirate there is nothing i can do to "out smart" concord.No ammount of planing is going to get me past them.You mention the higher end gameplay and why certain things work the way they do.Yet piracy has a problem nobody else suffers from. I really don't have a problem with this.As its clear without concord it would be very hard to stop us from killing a lot of easy targets.And there clearly needs to be places for new players.The problem comes with kali and the factional warfare.This gameplay is not reachable by us with low standings with concord. All were asking for is the same gameplay opportunities everyone else gets.Nothing more nothing less.I accept when i get ganked and i also gank that has nothing to do with this. On a side note raising ones sec status is also something that is not desirable.In a game that is always shouting about how much it rules because theres no grinding.I find it funny how to leave one of the main professions it takes quite a bit.Clearly a player should not be able to go from -10 back to -1.89 in a day.But weeks if not months of boring NPCing is clearly not the answer.Or at least there should be some other options. Not to mention that if you want to play a pirate then you want low security status and a bounty. Why would a pirate want or even be able to have a security status that could get you into your local schools choir. The fact was that CCP did have to lock pirates out because they could go around and kill newbies in 1.0 systems with frigates back in the old days. They could tank concord. They could do all sorts of stuff that you just cannot do anymore in EvE. There is no longer a reason to keep pirates out of high sec and there are many reasons, including factional warfare, why pirates should be allowed in now. Hopefully CCP will take a good hard look at this issue.
Pax Uranus Protoculture Club	Posted - 2006.07.19 05:46:00 - [71] Originally by: Infinity Ziona I am sure both you and I could spend all day writing posts made of the contents of various thesauruses and Collins Pocket Dictionaries but I really dont want to cause I really dont give a flying feck about you or your writing skills or your ego. If you want to pose as a phantom genius go and find a target thats at least half as witty as yourself. Now back to the REAL discussion, which was never about 'not considering the mechanics' or 'laughing at idiots' or YOU. Thank You You're very welcome. I am, though, trying to find which words in any of my posts would require a reader to use a thesaurus or dictionary. Honestly, I'm having a hard time finding any. There definitely are none in yours. Anyhow, it's immaterial. I do so hope that you were able to finally grasp some of the basic points being made, otherwise this back and forth has been a complete waste of time. So, moving past the numerous disconnects where we apparently were addressing different topics to varied success, let's take a look at Xeom's most recent remarks and work from there. Honestly Xeom, I wouldn't really sweat factional warfare in regards to pirates. If you take a step back and look at things that have been happening or noted by Devs, reading between the lines can strongly lead you to believe that pirates should be jussssssssssssst fine. It's not a state secret that a number of Devs are PVP-monkeys or YARRRRRR-pirates. I'm sure they're providing, or attempting to provide, those points of views into the development process cycle. Look at the majority of the Events that have been run over the last year - they're almost entirely focused around the pirate factions. There's clearly quite a lot shaping up in that regard. Finally, and most importantly: rewind to a month or so ago when CONCORD didn't seem to be doing their job in a lot of cases, then dig around and read the explanations about why/how. This is why all of the Chicken Little routines have been somewhat amusing. Yeah, pirates will most probably be jussssssssssstttt fine. Ziona, are there any words that need to be defined for you or points explained in simpler terms? I'm always willing to help those in need out.
Maximillian Pele	Posted - 2006.07.19 06:50:00 - [72] The reason it is highly unlikely that a "pardon" system would be introduced is the simple fact that it would be abused. If CCP granted conditional pardons so < -4.9 pirates could take part in Empire faction wars it is inevitable that someone would use that oportunity to gank a foe or park a smart-bombing battleship outside a noob station or somewhere in Jita. All hell was breaking loose once people realised that Concord was switched off after that patch, so I cannot see a situation where pardons are not going to be exploited by part of the player base. EvE already has methods to keep your sec level above -5.0. You can kill NPCs, PvP in 0.0 or simply refrain from ganking ships or popping pods where you'll take a sec hit. And needing to grind rats is not punishing the player - there is absolutely no reason why a pirate can't create and alt or even start a second account - it is punishing the character by making that character wear the consequences of its actions in game. Everyone needs to grind at some point in EvE: you need to grind missions to raise your faction standing. You need to grind missions to get RP from R&D agents if you want Tech 2 BPOs. You need to grind whatever method you use to gain ISKs to buy ships and equipment. So why not grind to raise your sec? If you started now you'd have your sec up by the time CCP institutes factional warfare. Pirates complaining about needing to grind NPCs to raise their sec is like Mission runners complaining that doing certain kill missions ruins their standing with other factions. If you don't want a low faction standing then don't do those kill missions or go and do missions for that faction to raise it again. CCP designed EvE so that choices a player makes will have a future consequence in game. Hence kill mails, secruity and faction standings all reflect your character's past actions. You have ability to control them. CCP has given you both the choices and the tools - use them! It really does appear that low sec pirates are becoming EvE's new carebears.
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.19 15:35:00 - [73] But unlike mission runners we do it for more then just rewards from the missions. Personaly i would like to see some concord agents offer something like a 2 week plan.Of doing 4-5 missions a day,no isk or item rewards just sec status.OFC its not exactly 2 weeks it all depends on you're sec status and how many missions you run. Also runing a mission is nothing like doing belt rats.While missions are rather boring.Nothing contends with belt rats. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Lord WarATron Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.19 16:09:00 - [74] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/07/2006 16:14:06 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/07/2006 16:11:42 Look man, who says that all factional agents are going to be high sec anyway? I am sure that ccp will probebly make them all low sec agents as to get people out of empire. And quite frankly, if someone spends hours of his time making isk and you pirate him, you are taking the short cut to faster riches. If you want fast cash, then you take the penelty of sec rating. If you want to pirate and not get a sec penelty, then go to 0.0. Its not rocket science, you mess someones day by pirating them, then Concord will mess your day by ganking you unless you rat like mad! I am not against piracy, I think it add's the much needed immersion in this game. However, you compleatly forget one thing - If there was no disincentive to piracy, heck, every man and his GTC funded alts would pirate everyone everyware. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
xeom Obsidian Sins	Posted - 2006.07.19 17:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/07/2006 16:14:06 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/07/2006 16:11:42 Look man, who says that all factional agents are going to be high sec anyway? I am sure that ccp will probebly make them all low sec agents as to get people out of empire. And quite frankly, if someone spends hours of his time making isk and you pirate him, you are taking the short cut to faster riches. If you want fast cash, then you take the penelty of sec rating. If you want to pirate and not get a sec penelty, then go to 0.0. Its not rocket science, you mess someones day by pirating them, then Concord will mess your day by ganking you unless you rat like mad! I am not against piracy, I think it add's the much needed immersion in this game. However, you compleatly forget one thing - If there was no disincentive to piracy, heck, every man and his GTC funded alts would pirate everyone everyware. Quick money HA! Please its almost impossible to make profit unless you gate camp.Again im not messing up anybodys day mate.And leaving the way pirates are now is what leads to alts.Its really hard to be a pure pirate with out a money making alt. I think the missions with concord would be a good option.One side we have longer sec raising threw ratting.You get a ton of money and come out smelling clean to concord.The other option is shorter but no isk. CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? \| Join[..SIN]
Vikram Bedi	Posted - 2006.07.19 17:35:00 - [76] Originally by: xeom im -9.0 and plan to go full blow -10. But the question is why do i have to work,NOT PLAY to raise it.further more why not create a system where i can only use the new content with restraints. Why do i have to stop my gameplay of choice to enjoy another part of eve?Who else has to do that? Someone give me a reason besides "uhhmmmmm because you killed pplz!" Because your gameplay of choice directly interferes with other peoples gameplay of choice. It's as simple as that. You want to impose punishments on other players, so the game environment imposes punishments on you. Personally I tend to agree with the sentiment that you should be allowed in highsec, if only so that I can attack you there, but really, quit whining. Your style of play injures other player characters, mining and mission running and ratting do not.
LexaKosh	Posted - 2006.07.19 20:01:00 - [77] Tell ya what show me 1 other class of player that has such limits inposed on him as we do and ill be quite.No body else has gameplay cut from them cut dry and simple.Also 0.0 combat is nothing like low-sec piracy k? Run enough missions for one faction and you cannot access the territory of another faction. That is one example. Will you be quiet now? Pls keep to your promise

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