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Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 07:22:00 -
[31]
The only ppl who want highway tolling are :
1: the pirates who saw their choke point gate camping get nerfed by highways.
2: price gouging corps - who are now unable to control markets as they would like or rather don't like the competition the gateways introduce.
So no to gateway tolling. Or as this is such a big issue I suggest Devs hold a vote on it, send a mail to all active accounts and ask players what they think - rather than just relying on the vocal minority on the boards
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Zezman
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Posted - 2003.10.05 07:27:00 -
[32]
Dev's need to focus on fixing known exploits, bugs, and errors in the system. Not adding tolls to gates.
How would you even charge someone to use a gate? And would you charge them to use all of the gates? How would you define which gate is a highway gate, and which is a local gate?
NO, Tolls should be reserved for newly opened gates created by players who built their own jump gates to the closed lands, Jove space, or highways in 0.0 systems.
Adding them to the core systems is ridiculous.
(»)(»)
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This is Rat. It is a vermin. It has eaten all of Bunny's lettuce. |
Xelios
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Posted - 2003.10.05 07:56:00 -
[33]
The devs have spent the last 4 months working on bugs and errors, now it's time for them to focus on content and gameplay problems. This is one of them.
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Sphalerite
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Posted - 2003.10.05 07:57:00 -
[34]
 Quote:
The only ppl who want highway tolling are :
1: the pirates who saw their choke point gate camping get nerfed by highways.
2: price gouging corps - who are now unable to control markets as they would like or rather don't like the competition the gateways introduce.
So no to gateway tolling. Or as this is such a big issue I suggest Devs hold a vote on it, send a mail to all active accounts and ask players what they think - rather than just relying on the vocal minority on the boards
I'm neither. I'm someone who wants to see a diverse economy. I don't want the every-module-for-sale-in-every-station-for-the-same-price situation we have now. I want to see the huge world 5000 systems should be, not this half hour from one end to the other crap we have now.
The highways shrink EVE. They give us less to do, and fewer places to do it.
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NymphoGrrrl
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Posted - 2003.10.05 08:14:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Personally, I want see around 5 million isk for large industrials....And a surcharge for bestowers 
troll
---nuff sad---
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Ace Merrill
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Posted - 2003.10.05 09:28:00 -
[36]
Well, as many have pointed out - Jash especially - the highways decimate regional markets.
My corp operates in Ammatar space, you couldn't give stuff away in that region, everyone just hops right back to Amarr and then off on a jolly hunt round each highway gate until they find the one region with the bargain price for everything they need. - It took 2 weeks to shift a Blackbird at a bargain price, and that's a popular cruiser!
As a result there is zero market (and almost zero players) in the region.
(Of course, almost every office is rented though, mostly by corps that haven't seen Ammatar since they passed through it on day 1, but that's another issue.)
Introducing a toll for highways (as it appears CCP have always intended) will force players to make economic decisions and bring back the regional identity and different feel of each area.
Am I the only one that dreamed of making a killing being the sole "importer" of Caldari ships into an Amarr region and selling exotic items from halfway across the galaxy?
With free highways cutting off most interesting manufacturing avenues and choking profit margins, it's just not worth making anything unless you have all the industrial skills to level 5, because you'll lose money on the tiny margins available.
(Ignoring all the players that think it's a really smart idea to sell below NPC mineral prices, who are, of course too stupid to live. - Anyone confused by this, look into the concept of "Opportunity Cost".)
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Britannia Futures
The future's bright, the future's Britannia. |
Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 09:57:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Harliquin on 05/10/2003 09:59:45
Edited by: Harliquin on 05/10/2003 09:58:46
Quote:
Well, as many have pointed out - Jash especially - the highways decimate regional markets.
Am I the only one that dreamed of making a killing being the sole "importer" of Caldari ships into an Amarr region and selling exotic items from halfway across the galaxy?
Well guess you answered the price gouger line - yup you are and thats all you want tolls for to - help control markets for YOU.
Quote:
With free highways cutting off most interesting manufacturing avenues and choking profit margins, it's just not worth making anything unless you have all the industrial skills to level 5, because you'll lose money on the tiny margins available.
If you cant be arsed to train your skills up what gives you the right to force your market view on others?
As for the guys who sell below npc mineral prices, its a free market live with it or go do somthing else. PPl buy and sell for what they think is a fair price NOT what YOU think is fair.
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Judicator
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Posted - 2003.10.05 10:01:00 -
[38]
Please remove the stupid highways. Let's make EVE big again.
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slothe
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Posted - 2003.10.05 10:10:00 -
[39]
OK
The highway gets jammed - people get stuck and complain (im currently stuck in Amarr)
The traffic has to be reduced.
OPTIONS
1. Close highways
2. Toll Highways
Which would you prefer....
Say hello on our forum @www.aserea.com
or join our public channel ingame "MLM Public"
http://www.khainestar.com/eve |
Jojin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 10:26:00 -
[40]
The idea of a toll is a good one.
It allows for more choices and variations in travel planning. Not a lot in and of itself, but for new individuals it adds more depth.
It should help on the market front as those who are used to traveling quickly to all regions will now have an additional overhead to consider. This will help local market individuals maintain higher profit levels.
It should increase the use of the courier missions for smaller items, as it may be cheaper to pay someone to throw in a package with a larger group than to ferry the package alone.
It should make things more interesting.
Will all these things occur, I am not sure, but I am willing to wait and see before breaking out my torch.
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Baldemar
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Posted - 2003.10.05 10:39:00 -
[41]
Quote:
Vote YES for highway tolls!
The universe was meant to be huge and not easily traversed in a hour or 2. Hopefully, with an excessive toll people will linger in their base regions and the distinct regional markets will recover.
I hope they actually  *GASP* take a RISK and venture out of safe space once in awhile. 
IMHO, free highway travel is just another big security blanket for carebears. |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.10.05 11:35:00 -
[42]
I vote for a TROLL on the Highways.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Turtle
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Posted - 2003.10.05 11:40:00 -
[43]
Quote:
I vote for a TROLL on the Highways.
Hey wait, this is sci-fi, not fantasy.
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Relentless
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Posted - 2003.10.05 11:56:00 -
[44]
Doesn't have to be a fantasy troll. It could just force you to listen to whiney rhetoric about how it thinks the game could be better, and repeatedly tell you to shut up anytime you disagree with it.
I'd probably stop using the highway.
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Paul Dubois
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Posted - 2003.10.05 11:59:00 -
[45]
As I see it, the main objection people have to long trips is not so much the time taken (well, I'm sure some do too :-) ) but more that its time spent doing nothing. You feed in a destination, hit autipilot and sit back and wait, while youre flying you pretty much can no nothing of interest within the game apart from maybe hitting the mwd or afterburner module when you're approaching a gate.
If people were able to do something productive/constructive whilse in flight they might be less concerned about time taken. Now as to what they can do I'm not sure but surely a ship has a communications system? So maybe something involving markets, agent, brokers whatever. But something to make travelling less boring would be well appreciated. Hmm apart from attacks by rampaging pirates, whilst that would certainly liven up the trip I don't think my poor hoarder would appreciate the damage :-).
As for the main point of the thread - as long as the cost is not too exorbitant. If they price it so that only shuttles are reasonably priced then I won't be happy, even with the highways its usually 20-35 jumps to get from my base to areas where I usually fight so currently a round trip to those areas is not viable in one day, I load up go to the area hang around for a few days or so then head back. Without the highways its more like 25-50 jump. Which is effectively a days playing timeon its own.
The other point is that I think they need to sort out once and for all the tendency for systems to become blackholes before they implement it as sometimes the only way round blackhole systems is be using the superhighways.
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Ace Merrill
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Posted - 2003.10.05 12:13:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Ace Merrill on 05/10/2003 12:16:05
Quote:
Well guess you answered the price gouger line - yup you are and thats all you want tolls for to - help control markets for YOU.
No, not really, but niches and stuff make the game interesting, with the current system it's so bland and underused. It's also totally unrealistic as there's no need to think how companies actually do - where should we base, what is demand and how much etc...
Besides, my corp manufacture nothing except our own ammo - we didn't fall for the "go buy a 10m isk bp and earn it back at 10k per ship" way of business.
Quote:
If you cant be arsed to train your skills up what gives you the right to force your market view on others?
I'm not forcing my ideas on anybody, this is a free discussion on a forum designed for such. If you don't like my argument, i'd like to hear why, but don't tell me I'm forcing it on anyone.
Quote:
As for the guys who sell below npc mineral prices, its a free market live with it or go do somthing else. PPl buy and sell for what they think is a fair price NOT what YOU think is fair.
That's not my point - hence the term opportunity cost. If you can sell item X at 5m isk or the componants A, B & C that go into it for 6m isk, then effectively you're putting extra effort and cost in to make less money. If you want to do that, fine, but I'll be getting rich quicker than you (all other things being equal).
Earn less by doing more just seems, to me at least, an exercise in stupidity.
(As a side note I'm astounded by the number of people who can't seem to spell their character name correctly - even allowing for foreign spelling. I know I'd feel stupid playing a game for months whilst flying around with a character that proclaims my errors, but hey, that's just a personal irk.)
edit: minor spelling - yes ironic given the above.
--
Britannia Futures
The future's bright, the future's Britannia. |
Ace Merrill
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Posted - 2003.10.05 12:18:00 -
[47]
Quote:
The other point is that I think they need to sort out once and for all the tendency for systems to become blackholes before they implement it as sometimes the only way round blackhole systems is be using the superhighways.
Except for the fact that 90% of the time, the "blackholes" ARE the highways, precisely because they are so heavily used.
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Britannia Futures
The future's bright, the future's Britannia. |
Erty
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Posted - 2003.10.05 12:18:00 -
[48]
Yeah, a toll would be nice.
With shuttles it should be _very_ cheap (maybe 50k isk), but as long as you take a ship that can transport some stuff (yes I know shuttles have 10 m3 cargo) it should be more expensive.
Maybe 200k for a frigate, 500k for a cruiser, 1-2 mil for a battleship and 3, 4 or maybe even 5 mil for an industrial.
With that system players would be able to travel around quite fast.
For example I have two main bases - one in Lonetrek (the system has been my base since beta, I just can't leave it), and one in Khanid. I have a couple of ships in both of my bases.
With tolls I would be able to go from Khanid to Lonetrek just as fast as now with a shuttle, and it wouldn't be too expensive either.
But if I wanted to take all my rare laser drops from Khanid to Lonetrek to sell it or something that would cost me money if I was in a hurry.
In that way the regional markets would start to exist again.
This is my signature. |
Angelsfist
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Posted - 2003.10.05 12:22:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Quote:
Vote YES for highway tolls!
The universe was meant to be huge and not easily traversed in a hour or 2. Hopefully, with an excessive toll people will linger in their base regions and the distinct regional markets will recover.
I hope they actually *GASP* take a RISK and venture out of safe space once in awhile.
IMHO, free highway travel is just another big security blanket for carebears.
I couldn't agree more, however if they are dead-set in staying in empire space then they'll need a bit more motivation.
Afterall the only people outside of empire space are the mean uber pirates <sarcasm>
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 12:37:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Harliquin on 05/10/2003 12:39:25
First off the free gates make the market model truely free - which its seems most of the ppl here can't cope with.
What is the market not easiy enough for you to fix? quick lets slap some import tariffs on everything coming from those damn foreigners - WTF is this the US vs Europe trade talk simulator? (think steel and bananas)
Quote:
Quote:
As for the guys who sell below npc mineral prices, its a free market live with it or go do somthing else. PPl buy and sell for what they think is a fair price NOT what YOU think is fair.
That's not my point - hence the term opportunity cost. If you can sell item X at 5m isk or the componants A, B & C that go into it for 6m isk, then effectively you're putting extra effort and cost in to make less money. If you want to do that, fine, but I'll be getting rich quicker than you (all other things being equal).
Earn less by doing more just seems, to me at least, an exercise in stupidity.
I'd agree with you totally, I can see your point - I'm amased by what some ppl sell stuff for but hey if its close to me I buy & recycle - they are happy I'm happy. At the end of the day that is their choice.
[Quote](As a side note I'm astounded by the number of people who can't seem to spell their character name correctly - even allowing for foreign spelling. I know I'd feel stupid playing a game for months whilst flying around with a character that proclaims my errors, but hey, that's just a personal irk.)
So how do you know how ppl want to spell their names? you get irritated by Kathy & Cathey and tell them it should be Cathy?
Edited to get quotes right
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Ace Merrill
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Posted - 2003.10.05 13:08:00 -
[51]
Quote:
[Quote](As a side note I'm astounded by the number of people who can't seem to spell their character name correctly - even allowing for foreign spelling. I know I'd feel stupid playing a game for months whilst flying around with a character that proclaims my errors, but hey, that's just a personal irk.)
So how do you know how ppl want to spell their names? you get irritated by Kathy & Cathey and tell them it should be Cathy?
No, and like I said, it's more of a personal thing - and some names do vary, but on the other hand, it's kinda annoying and confusing to see half a dozen "Muad'Dib" in game just cause no one bothered to check how it was spelt.
--
Britannia Futures
The future's bright, the future's Britannia. |
Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 13:10:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Harliquin on 05/10/2003 13:15:13
Quote:
Quote:
So how do you know how ppl want to spell their names? you get irritated by Kathy & Cathey and tell them it should be Cathy?
No, and like I said, it's more of a personal thing - and some names do vary, but on the other hand, it's kinda annoying and confusing to see half a dozen "Muad'Dib" in game just cause no one bothered to check how it was spelt.
And the fact one spelling of a particular name can only be used once in EVE would have nothing to do with the multiple spellings either!
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 14:37:00 -
[53]
Quote:
The only ppl who want highway tolling are :
1: the pirates who saw their choke point gate camping get nerfed by highways.
2: price gouging corps - who are now unable to control markets as they would like or rather don't like the competition the gateways introduce.
So no to gateway tolling. Or as this is such a big issue I suggest Devs hold a vote on it, send a mail to all active accounts and ask players what they think - rather than just relying on the vocal minority on the boards
First, the toll idea was CCP's. The highways were planned to have tolls. The gates denying access for recent agression was the first step towards making the gates discriminate on allowing passage based on certain criteria (was mentioned in a dev blog or something).
2nd, Pirates were always intended to be part of the risk factor in doing business. You think it's accidental that the non-highway connections are low security? That 0.0 space is full of easily identified chokepoints near where the regions connect?
3rd, if you see someone gouging a price you can complain about it. That's what lazy furbearers do best. People with any business sense see it as an opportunity. And it's an opportunity availible to those locally.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.10.05 14:49:00 -
[54]
Highways make the universe seem too small for me, nuff said. If tolls help bringing some of the "vast" feel back then so be it.
As long as those tolls are calculated based on your ship and its cargo I¦m totally fine with it.
And really that "pirates want this cause..." point is the biggest crap I¦ve ever heard.
Pirates were killing people before and even more after the highways came.
Mai's Idealog |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.10.05 17:01:00 -
[55]
Quote:
that is ridiculous
a toll system is stupid
Zezman, stop trolling with your stupid one-line conclusive commentary. If you think it is stupid, then tell us why.
The superhighway system is ruining the market economy. That is just plain fact. The sad thing is that the toll idea is probably the worst "fix" for this issue that is possible, but at least it is getting somewhere.
Really, when you think of it, any toll that they are realistically likely to implement would be extremely burdensome for new players, yet be chump change for the bigger merchants. It is just a really bad way to solve this problem.
The best way would be to remove the highways or to restrict certain types of vessels from going through the highway gates. My solution was to restrict access to shuttles only. That way you can quickly travel from one empire to the other if you need to, but you would have to buy whatever ship you need once you get there.
Even a system by which the highways are restricted to frigates only would be workable. Cruisers and above can too easily be outfitted to act as pseudo-industrials which is the whole point of adding a toll.
Think about it. Imagine they implemented a toll of 50,000 isk per jump. I remember when I was new, 50,000 isk was a good chunk of change (took me a whole day to save up that much for my first condor), but I now throw away 50,000 isk without a second thought.
It just isn't a good idea. Restriction on the type of vessel is the best way, and hell, its much more RP friendly as well. (due to the ability of empires to quickly mass huge fleets and threaten other empire's homeworlds, use of the superhighway system will be restricted to shuttles only).
5 million isk toll is really the only way to make tolls a viable option.
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 17:14:00 -
[56]
Quote:
3rd, if you see someone gouging a price you can complain about it. That's what lazy furbearers do best. People with any business sense see it as an opportunity. And it's an opportunity availible to those locally.
I really have no problem with price gouging and have never complained about it. (see numerous posts defending supercon prices)
If you notice its the pro-tollers complaing they cannot control the markets to start hiking prices - In effect they want tarriffs introduced help local production because they can't be bothered or are too crap to nail an eve-wide market.
I'm against artificial trade barriers - EVE is all about a player controlled market - its just all the corps want that player controlled market on their own terms - real competition is too much for them to handle.
And that make eve bigger again line is pure tosh - I can't play 24/7 so don't want to waste my time spending 30minutes travelling from one place to another.
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Fijou
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Posted - 2003.10.05 17:21:00 -
[57]
Quote:
Even a system by which the highways are restricted to frigates only would be workable. Cruisers and above can too easily be outfitted to act as pseudo-industrials which is the whole point of adding a toll.
One can easily fit a probe to have over 500 cargo space which rivals and surpasses that of many cruisers, so allowing frigates wouldnt exactly solve anything.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 18:00:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Quote:
3rd, if you see someone gouging a price you can complain about it. That's what lazy furbearers do best. People with any business sense see it as an opportunity. And it's an opportunity availible to those locally.
I really have no problem with price gouging and have never complained about it. (see numerous posts defending supercon prices)
If you notice its the pro-tollers complaing they cannot control the markets to start hiking prices - In effect they want tarriffs introduced help local production because they can't be bothered or are too crap to nail an eve-wide market.
I'm against artificial trade barriers - EVE is all about a player controlled market - its just all the corps want that player controlled market on their own terms - real competition is too much for them to handle.
And that make eve bigger again line is pure tosh - I can't play 24/7 so don't want to waste my time spending 30minutes travelling from one place to another.
A completely free market has led us where we are now: people selling blueprint copies instead of manufacturing because the profit margins are so low it's avoiding the mineral aquisition is worth more than actually manufacturing anything. What little market demand there is gets consumed by people importing products that they're paid to take. Because that's essentially what happens when you kill an npc: you're paid a bounty and an item to sell on the market. Which further limits the demand for market goods, especially for imported ones.
You keep saying people want to control the market. You keep ignoring the fact that in order to control the market you have to put forth some effort. Right now the market is in the crapper because people are controlling it with next to no effort. It takes no effort for someone to manufacture in a single location, load up the goods into industrials and undercut everyone in 5 different regions.
A completely free market economy has never worked. It really won't work in Eve since there is next to no cost to manufacture products and absolutely no cost to aquire the same goods without manufacturing. This is a game in the end. That means there have to be opportunities for everyone to share. With the regions so closely connected, the amount of opportunities are shared among more people than they can support.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.10.05 18:06:00 -
[59]
Edited by: j0sephine on 05/10/2003 18:10:15
"One can easily fit a probe to have over 500 cargo space which rivals and surpasses that of many cruisers, so allowing frigates wouldnt exactly solve anything."
... Having the toll be a percentage of cargo value --calculated using market prices-- could be a good start... except it'd require the market to be enhanced so it finally supports trade of NPC drops. (plus, market prices can be quite off base due to current manipulations going... but that's another story)
On second thought, would be much easier to just burn the silly things down. :s
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 18:31:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Edited by: j0sephine on 05/10/2003 18:10:15
"One can easily fit a probe to have over 500 cargo space which rivals and surpasses that of many cruisers, so allowing frigates wouldnt exactly solve anything."
... Having the toll be a percentage of cargo value --calculated using market prices-- could be a good start... except it'd require the market to be enhanced so it finally supports trade of NPC drops. (plus, market prices can be quite off base due to current manipulations going... but that's another story)
On second thought, would be much easier to just burn the silly things down. :s
That was the original suggestion, to remove the damn things. But I think CCP is afraid of drowning in all the tears so that's not an option. We'll have to settle for some enormously complicated method that creates a lot of confusion and tons of tweaking before getting something half as effective.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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