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Vacuole
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Posted - 2003.10.05 03:25:00 -
[1]
There's been some talk about this lately, sorry for beating a dead horse.
But I think players need an incentive to actually use "less safe" routes.
Heavy tolls by CONCORD or whoever is a great idea... and it would be easy to role-play.
FRIENDLY MESSAGE TO ALL SPACEFARERS
The new highway gating system has been a wild success. We appreciate everyone using the gates in these last months. All known bugs have been worked-out and the gates have been tuned recently for maximum performance. The trial period for the Highway project is now over.
We are pleased to announce the opening of the Eve Highway System, proudly linking all corners of the universe, and all cultures!
Usage of the gate system will involve a small fee, based on mass of the craft utilizing the network.
The fee schedule will be forthcoming. We invite all spacefarers to continue using the Highway System at will. If, however, you decide not to use the new system, please plan your route accordingly.
--------------------
Well, something like that. If we can get people to stop using the highway system (except in emergency), then the Eve universe will suddenly become a lot "bigger" (as I believe it was intended) and the market might start to recover, atleast a little bit.
Thanks
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Zezman
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Posted - 2003.10.05 03:29:00 -
[2]
no
(»)(»)
À\Oo/
À=\/=
This is Rat. It is a vermin. It has eaten all of Bunny's lettuce. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 03:33:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
no
Tough. It's going to happen
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2003.10.05 03:33:00 -
[4]
What's going to be the incentive not to use them? Unless the toll system is INSANELY expensive nobody's going to care about spending a couple thousand isk to use them. I know I sure won't.
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Lliad
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Posted - 2003.10.05 03:37:00 -
[5]
Couple of thousand. It better be at least 500k isk. Personaly i would like to see it at a million isk but i dought they would go that far.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 03:43:00 -
[6]
Personally, I want see around 5 million isk for large industrials....And a surcharge for bestowers 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Scrapyard Jack
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Posted - 2003.10.05 03:45:00 -
[7]
Quote:
Couple of thousand. It better be at least 500k isk. Personaly i would like to see it at a million isk but i dought they would go that far.
Not sure what you're smoking there, ehehehe!, but ol' Jack gets the feeling that you're waaaaaay off.
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Lliad
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Posted - 2003.10.05 03:49:00 -
[8]
I know im way off. I never said it was what was going to happen. I only said it is what I PERSONALY would like to see.
So why dont you learn the meaning of things before you start posting crap
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StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.10.05 04:02:00 -
[9]
Quote:
FRIENDLY MESSAGE TO ALL SPACEFARERS
The new highway gating system has been a wild success. We appreciate everyone using the gates in these last months. All known bugs have been worked-out and the gates have been tuned recently for maximum performance. The trial period for the Highway project is now over.
(...)
The fee schedule will be forthcoming. We invite all spacefarers to continue using the Highway System at will. If, however, you decide not to use the new system, please plan your route accordingly.
(...)
Maybe they should sort the pator and yulai stuck problems before saying it is bug free.
About the routes, they better implement an autopilot option to avoid the highways too. Try to set a course from Lonetrek to Genesis without using the highways and using the best rout possible, and you will know what I mean... 
_______________________________________________
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 04:04:00 -
[10]
Quote:
I know im way off. I never said it was what was going to happen. I only said it is what I PERSONALY would like to see.
So why dont you learn the meaning of things before you start posting crap
Because Scrapyard Jack is a running gag that hasn't figured out he's reached the end of the road and really should stop running. Sort of like a clown who stopped being funny years ago and has yet to clue in that floppy shoes are passe.
Toss him a few bits from pity. Ehehehh..heh..he....h...*sigh*
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Acix
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Posted - 2003.10.05 04:05:00 -
[11]
So when this doesn't work, are we going to have mandatory trips for everyone to do. Trips going though camped gates so that the pirates get everything handed to them on a silver plater? Do the pirates really need CCP to direct traffic to them?
No flames needed, just being sarcastic.
SNIGG is now officially open for business. We are a merc corp looking for contracts.
For more info click below
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=68313 |
Xelios
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Posted - 2003.10.05 04:09:00 -
[12]
" Do the pirates really need CCP to direct traffic to them? "
What are you talking about? What difference does it make if you go from Amarr to Yulai instead of a 6 jump route in between? You're still in empire space, the worst that could happen is a scratch on the paint or a chip in the windsheild.
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Vacuole
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Posted - 2003.10.05 04:13:00 -
[13]
Acix:
I agree that's it's an eternal arms race between pirates and "carebears" (non-pirates I think).
But I personally believe that the scales are tipped just a wee-bit in the non-pirate favor with those highways, and the markets suffer as a result.
I can envision an Eve where there's a couple of differnet routes to most places without using the highway system. I think this would mean making some more connections on a smaller scale through some system.
God forbid, people might have to learn the hard way how to navigate like an expert around or through pirate blockades.
See, I think this is what the problem is.. people too pig-headed to learn how to fend for themselves and CCP remedying their plight, at the expense of the market's well being.
I remember the "good-ole-days" when plotting a course from empire space to Stain (for example) was considered a major odyssey that took a long time to complete.. I personally felt like I was off on a looong-distance trip and the universe was vast and the people I met along the way were truly strangers.
Now, you can get there in a few jumps and do it pretty-much in the time it takes to go take a good no. 2.
Hello market homogeny, goodbye courier/tradesman market. Also, goodbye feeling of exploration and intrigue.
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Master Scy
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Posted - 2003.10.05 04:18:00 -
[14]
I'm hoping the fee will be based on ship class + volume of loaded cargo...
-----------------------------
You think Marco Polo said
"Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ?
-Indigo Seqi
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 04:24:00 -
[15]
Quote:
I'm hoping the fee will be based on ship class + volume of loaded cargo...
So an industrial full of Robotics bears the same toll as one of Datasheets? Err...how about not.
Mass of the vessel is the fairest way because it bypasses the possible market issues. Like if you bought that load of whatever above NPC market value.
It's easiest for CCP to take the least valuable cargo and place it in the highest capacity industrial, then create the toll based on that ship's mass. That way someone hauling an Iteron Mark V full of nuclear s ammo doesn't have their profit margin completely wiped out.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Zezman
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Posted - 2003.10.05 05:19:00 -
[16]
And how do you plan on enforcing a toll?
(»)(»)
À\Oo/
À=\/=
This is Rat. It is a vermin. It has eaten all of Bunny's lettuce. |
Xelios
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Posted - 2003.10.05 05:21:00 -
[17]
Old ladies with walkers. No one ****s with an old lady and her walker.
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Vacuole
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Posted - 2003.10.05 05:25:00 -
[18]
I hope to solicit CCP to impose it through modified game mechanics.
In fact, I think it is already in the works not by my suggestion. I was just reiterating the need for it.
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Ayar Cachi
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Posted - 2003.10.05 05:31:00 -
[19]
There has been talk of implementing a toll system in Eve before.
For example, LeKjart mentioned it. So there may be some mechanics or at least some hooks for this (and more interesting tolls) in place already. Maybe.
I vote we don't put zez in charge of it though. what? No voting? crap.
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Zezman
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Posted - 2003.10.05 05:50:00 -
[20]
that is ridiculous
a toll system is stupid
(»)(»)
À\Oo/
À=\/=
This is Rat. It is a vermin. It has eaten all of Bunny's lettuce. |
Vacuole
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Posted - 2003.10.05 05:56:00 -
[21]
Zezman
That may be.. please explain why.
Thanks --
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Vacuole
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Posted - 2003.10.05 05:57:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Vacuole on 05/10/2003 05:58:27
Double post, because of the inferior boards.
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GraveDigger
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Posted - 2003.10.05 06:05:00 -
[23]
yes, troll,troll,troll,? er. I mean toll,toll,toll....I will be more then happy to pay to use the hywy system, just as long as they use the isk everyone pays for upkeep!
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Zezman
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Posted - 2003.10.05 06:05:00 -
[24]
It is ridiculous to toll jump gates of previously free systems. For one, who gains by this?
Where does the money go? Into a vacuum. Would it reduce traffic? No. There is no benefit for such a system, and it greatly hinders the traveling public.
The best way to ease the highway system is to make it broader, with more interconnections. Not less.
(»)(»)
À\Oo/
À=\/=
This is Rat. It is a vermin. It has eaten all of Bunny's lettuce. |
Angelsfist
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Posted - 2003.10.05 06:15:00 -
[25]
Vote YES for highway tolls!
The universe was meant to be huge and not easily traversed in a hour or 2. Hopefully, with an excessive toll people will linger in their base regions and the distinct regional markets will recover.
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Kalki Nibiru
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Posted - 2003.10.05 06:22:00 -
[26]
I guess they need to relocate agents out of the highway systems then, because it sure would be a ***** trying to do missions and always having to pay a toll.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate
.
<Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market?
<Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
Kalki Nibiru
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Posted - 2003.10.05 06:22:00 -
[27]
I guess they need to relocate agents out of the highway systems then, because it sure would be a ***** trying to do missions and always having to pay a toll.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate
.
<Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market?
<Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
Sphalerite
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Posted - 2003.10.05 06:24:00 -
[28]
Quote:
It is ridiculous to toll jump gates of previously free systems. For one, who gains by this?
Where does the money go? Into a vacuum. Would it reduce traffic? No. There is no benefit for such a system, and it greatly hinders the traveling public.
The best way to ease the highway system is to make it broader, with more interconnections. Not less.
The problem is that the highways homogenize EVE. Before the highways, there were lots of local markets, and they were all different. The world felt huge, there were places that were hours away.
The way things are now, one corp can corner the market for the entire universe. there is no local variety, and thats killed any dynamic player trading. Why would I ever place a buy order for something I can't find locally, when I can check half the universe in half an hour.
Adding tolls would bring the player trader concept back to life. A corp can still sell its good all over the universe easily, but a solo player with some cash and an indy can make some money off it too, by going the long way around.
So they gain from this. Pirates also gain many more places that have traffic, so they don't have to camp the 2 or 3 places where people actually have to take goods though as it is right now.
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Amin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 06:48:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Amin on 05/10/2003 06:50:24
The problem i see with the highway system is primarily how its laid out. It doesnt make alot of sense from a defense point of view, the fact that i can go from Amarr to Pator in 2 jumps is ridiculous. Only ccp knows why there have been "border skirmishes" in the bleak lands, tbh i doubt more hand a handful of corps are actually based in regions like this one.
A toll for highways, maybe (do i hear conjestion charge  ) . But what needs to be changed before hand is how the highway is laid out. It should be like a "ring road" similar to the M25 around London. It should link all the regions that located outside the starting regions (molden heath, khanid, forge, placid etc). This would still make Eve easy to transverse from one far out region to another, without having to go through the the most congested regions. The highway jump point could be linked to systems that r maybe a few jumps from the starting regions. It will still reduce the number of jumps needed on some journeys, whereas on others it may be easier to avoid the highways all together for others
This way you wont have 1 major bottleneck system like yulai, and if for some reason a system in the new highway does go down it wont take the whole highway with it.
Just some thoughts, very unlikely to be implimented, i know 
Drink StarsiÖ Relation Co-ordinator
Caldari State Citizen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Xelios
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Posted - 2003.10.05 07:04:00 -
[30]
Zezman, the whole reason the question of tolls is being brought up is to counteract the super easy trading and bypassing of dangerous systems. How will putting in more superhighway gates do anything but make these problems 1000x worse?
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 07:22:00 -
[31]
The only ppl who want highway tolling are :
1: the pirates who saw their choke point gate camping get nerfed by highways.
2: price gouging corps - who are now unable to control markets as they would like or rather don't like the competition the gateways introduce.
So no to gateway tolling. Or as this is such a big issue I suggest Devs hold a vote on it, send a mail to all active accounts and ask players what they think - rather than just relying on the vocal minority on the boards
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Zezman
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Posted - 2003.10.05 07:27:00 -
[32]
Dev's need to focus on fixing known exploits, bugs, and errors in the system. Not adding tolls to gates.
How would you even charge someone to use a gate? And would you charge them to use all of the gates? How would you define which gate is a highway gate, and which is a local gate?
NO, Tolls should be reserved for newly opened gates created by players who built their own jump gates to the closed lands, Jove space, or highways in 0.0 systems.
Adding them to the core systems is ridiculous.
(»)(»)
À\Oo/
À=\/=
This is Rat. It is a vermin. It has eaten all of Bunny's lettuce. |
Xelios
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Posted - 2003.10.05 07:56:00 -
[33]
The devs have spent the last 4 months working on bugs and errors, now it's time for them to focus on content and gameplay problems. This is one of them.
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Sphalerite
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Posted - 2003.10.05 07:57:00 -
[34]
Quote:
The only ppl who want highway tolling are :
1: the pirates who saw their choke point gate camping get nerfed by highways.
2: price gouging corps - who are now unable to control markets as they would like or rather don't like the competition the gateways introduce.
So no to gateway tolling. Or as this is such a big issue I suggest Devs hold a vote on it, send a mail to all active accounts and ask players what they think - rather than just relying on the vocal minority on the boards
I'm neither. I'm someone who wants to see a diverse economy. I don't want the every-module-for-sale-in-every-station-for-the-same-price situation we have now. I want to see the huge world 5000 systems should be, not this half hour from one end to the other crap we have now.
The highways shrink EVE. They give us less to do, and fewer places to do it.
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NymphoGrrrl
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Posted - 2003.10.05 08:14:00 -
[35]
Quote:
Personally, I want see around 5 million isk for large industrials....And a surcharge for bestowers
troll
---nuff sad---
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Ace Merrill
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Posted - 2003.10.05 09:28:00 -
[36]
Well, as many have pointed out - Jash especially - the highways decimate regional markets.
My corp operates in Ammatar space, you couldn't give stuff away in that region, everyone just hops right back to Amarr and then off on a jolly hunt round each highway gate until they find the one region with the bargain price for everything they need. - It took 2 weeks to shift a Blackbird at a bargain price, and that's a popular cruiser!
As a result there is zero market (and almost zero players) in the region.
(Of course, almost every office is rented though, mostly by corps that haven't seen Ammatar since they passed through it on day 1, but that's another issue.)
Introducing a toll for highways (as it appears CCP have always intended) will force players to make economic decisions and bring back the regional identity and different feel of each area.
Am I the only one that dreamed of making a killing being the sole "importer" of Caldari ships into an Amarr region and selling exotic items from halfway across the galaxy?
With free highways cutting off most interesting manufacturing avenues and choking profit margins, it's just not worth making anything unless you have all the industrial skills to level 5, because you'll lose money on the tiny margins available.
(Ignoring all the players that think it's a really smart idea to sell below NPC mineral prices, who are, of course too stupid to live. - Anyone confused by this, look into the concept of "Opportunity Cost".)
--
Britannia Futures
The future's bright, the future's Britannia. |
Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 09:57:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Harliquin on 05/10/2003 09:59:45
Edited by: Harliquin on 05/10/2003 09:58:46
Quote:
Well, as many have pointed out - Jash especially - the highways decimate regional markets.
Am I the only one that dreamed of making a killing being the sole "importer" of Caldari ships into an Amarr region and selling exotic items from halfway across the galaxy?
Well guess you answered the price gouger line - yup you are and thats all you want tolls for to - help control markets for YOU.
Quote:
With free highways cutting off most interesting manufacturing avenues and choking profit margins, it's just not worth making anything unless you have all the industrial skills to level 5, because you'll lose money on the tiny margins available.
If you cant be arsed to train your skills up what gives you the right to force your market view on others?
As for the guys who sell below npc mineral prices, its a free market live with it or go do somthing else. PPl buy and sell for what they think is a fair price NOT what YOU think is fair.
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Judicator
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Posted - 2003.10.05 10:01:00 -
[38]
Please remove the stupid highways. Let's make EVE big again.
-------------------------
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slothe
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Posted - 2003.10.05 10:10:00 -
[39]
OK
The highway gets jammed - people get stuck and complain (im currently stuck in Amarr)
The traffic has to be reduced.
OPTIONS
1. Close highways
2. Toll Highways
Which would you prefer....
Say hello on our forum @www.aserea.com
or join our public channel ingame "MLM Public"
http://www.khainestar.com/eve |
Jojin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 10:26:00 -
[40]
The idea of a toll is a good one.
It allows for more choices and variations in travel planning. Not a lot in and of itself, but for new individuals it adds more depth.
It should help on the market front as those who are used to traveling quickly to all regions will now have an additional overhead to consider. This will help local market individuals maintain higher profit levels.
It should increase the use of the courier missions for smaller items, as it may be cheaper to pay someone to throw in a package with a larger group than to ferry the package alone.
It should make things more interesting.
Will all these things occur, I am not sure, but I am willing to wait and see before breaking out my torch.
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Baldemar
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Posted - 2003.10.05 10:39:00 -
[41]
Quote:
Vote YES for highway tolls!
The universe was meant to be huge and not easily traversed in a hour or 2. Hopefully, with an excessive toll people will linger in their base regions and the distinct regional markets will recover.
I hope they actually *GASP* take a RISK and venture out of safe space once in awhile.
IMHO, free highway travel is just another big security blanket for carebears. |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.10.05 11:35:00 -
[42]
I vote for a TROLL on the Highways.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Turtle
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Posted - 2003.10.05 11:40:00 -
[43]
Quote:
I vote for a TROLL on the Highways.
Hey wait, this is sci-fi, not fantasy.
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Relentless
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Posted - 2003.10.05 11:56:00 -
[44]
Doesn't have to be a fantasy troll. It could just force you to listen to whiney rhetoric about how it thinks the game could be better, and repeatedly tell you to shut up anytime you disagree with it.
I'd probably stop using the highway.
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Paul Dubois
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Posted - 2003.10.05 11:59:00 -
[45]
As I see it, the main objection people have to long trips is not so much the time taken (well, I'm sure some do too :-) ) but more that its time spent doing nothing. You feed in a destination, hit autipilot and sit back and wait, while youre flying you pretty much can no nothing of interest within the game apart from maybe hitting the mwd or afterburner module when you're approaching a gate.
If people were able to do something productive/constructive whilse in flight they might be less concerned about time taken. Now as to what they can do I'm not sure but surely a ship has a communications system? So maybe something involving markets, agent, brokers whatever. But something to make travelling less boring would be well appreciated. Hmm apart from attacks by rampaging pirates, whilst that would certainly liven up the trip I don't think my poor hoarder would appreciate the damage :-).
As for the main point of the thread - as long as the cost is not too exorbitant. If they price it so that only shuttles are reasonably priced then I won't be happy, even with the highways its usually 20-35 jumps to get from my base to areas where I usually fight so currently a round trip to those areas is not viable in one day, I load up go to the area hang around for a few days or so then head back. Without the highways its more like 25-50 jump. Which is effectively a days playing timeon its own.
The other point is that I think they need to sort out once and for all the tendency for systems to become blackholes before they implement it as sometimes the only way round blackhole systems is be using the superhighways.
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Ace Merrill
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Posted - 2003.10.05 12:13:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Ace Merrill on 05/10/2003 12:16:05
Quote:
Well guess you answered the price gouger line - yup you are and thats all you want tolls for to - help control markets for YOU.
No, not really, but niches and stuff make the game interesting, with the current system it's so bland and underused. It's also totally unrealistic as there's no need to think how companies actually do - where should we base, what is demand and how much etc...
Besides, my corp manufacture nothing except our own ammo - we didn't fall for the "go buy a 10m isk bp and earn it back at 10k per ship" way of business.
Quote:
If you cant be arsed to train your skills up what gives you the right to force your market view on others?
I'm not forcing my ideas on anybody, this is a free discussion on a forum designed for such. If you don't like my argument, i'd like to hear why, but don't tell me I'm forcing it on anyone.
Quote:
As for the guys who sell below npc mineral prices, its a free market live with it or go do somthing else. PPl buy and sell for what they think is a fair price NOT what YOU think is fair.
That's not my point - hence the term opportunity cost. If you can sell item X at 5m isk or the componants A, B & C that go into it for 6m isk, then effectively you're putting extra effort and cost in to make less money. If you want to do that, fine, but I'll be getting rich quicker than you (all other things being equal).
Earn less by doing more just seems, to me at least, an exercise in stupidity.
(As a side note I'm astounded by the number of people who can't seem to spell their character name correctly - even allowing for foreign spelling. I know I'd feel stupid playing a game for months whilst flying around with a character that proclaims my errors, but hey, that's just a personal irk.)
edit: minor spelling - yes ironic given the above.
--
Britannia Futures
The future's bright, the future's Britannia. |
Ace Merrill
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Posted - 2003.10.05 12:18:00 -
[47]
Quote:
The other point is that I think they need to sort out once and for all the tendency for systems to become blackholes before they implement it as sometimes the only way round blackhole systems is be using the superhighways.
Except for the fact that 90% of the time, the "blackholes" ARE the highways, precisely because they are so heavily used.
--
Britannia Futures
The future's bright, the future's Britannia. |
Erty
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Posted - 2003.10.05 12:18:00 -
[48]
Yeah, a toll would be nice.
With shuttles it should be _very_ cheap (maybe 50k isk), but as long as you take a ship that can transport some stuff (yes I know shuttles have 10 m3 cargo) it should be more expensive.
Maybe 200k for a frigate, 500k for a cruiser, 1-2 mil for a battleship and 3, 4 or maybe even 5 mil for an industrial.
With that system players would be able to travel around quite fast.
For example I have two main bases - one in Lonetrek (the system has been my base since beta, I just can't leave it), and one in Khanid. I have a couple of ships in both of my bases.
With tolls I would be able to go from Khanid to Lonetrek just as fast as now with a shuttle, and it wouldn't be too expensive either.
But if I wanted to take all my rare laser drops from Khanid to Lonetrek to sell it or something that would cost me money if I was in a hurry.
In that way the regional markets would start to exist again.
This is my signature. |
Angelsfist
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Posted - 2003.10.05 12:22:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Quote:
Vote YES for highway tolls!
The universe was meant to be huge and not easily traversed in a hour or 2. Hopefully, with an excessive toll people will linger in their base regions and the distinct regional markets will recover.
I hope they actually *GASP* take a RISK and venture out of safe space once in awhile.
IMHO, free highway travel is just another big security blanket for carebears.
I couldn't agree more, however if they are dead-set in staying in empire space then they'll need a bit more motivation.
Afterall the only people outside of empire space are the mean uber pirates <sarcasm>
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 12:37:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Harliquin on 05/10/2003 12:39:25
First off the free gates make the market model truely free - which its seems most of the ppl here can't cope with.
What is the market not easiy enough for you to fix? quick lets slap some import tariffs on everything coming from those damn foreigners - WTF is this the US vs Europe trade talk simulator? (think steel and bananas)
Quote:
Quote:
As for the guys who sell below npc mineral prices, its a free market live with it or go do somthing else. PPl buy and sell for what they think is a fair price NOT what YOU think is fair.
That's not my point - hence the term opportunity cost. If you can sell item X at 5m isk or the componants A, B & C that go into it for 6m isk, then effectively you're putting extra effort and cost in to make less money. If you want to do that, fine, but I'll be getting rich quicker than you (all other things being equal).
Earn less by doing more just seems, to me at least, an exercise in stupidity.
I'd agree with you totally, I can see your point - I'm amased by what some ppl sell stuff for but hey if its close to me I buy & recycle - they are happy I'm happy. At the end of the day that is their choice.
[Quote](As a side note I'm astounded by the number of people who can't seem to spell their character name correctly - even allowing for foreign spelling. I know I'd feel stupid playing a game for months whilst flying around with a character that proclaims my errors, but hey, that's just a personal irk.)
So how do you know how ppl want to spell their names? you get irritated by Kathy & Cathey and tell them it should be Cathy?
Edited to get quotes right
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Ace Merrill
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Posted - 2003.10.05 13:08:00 -
[51]
Quote:
[Quote](As a side note I'm astounded by the number of people who can't seem to spell their character name correctly - even allowing for foreign spelling. I know I'd feel stupid playing a game for months whilst flying around with a character that proclaims my errors, but hey, that's just a personal irk.)
So how do you know how ppl want to spell their names? you get irritated by Kathy & Cathey and tell them it should be Cathy?
No, and like I said, it's more of a personal thing - and some names do vary, but on the other hand, it's kinda annoying and confusing to see half a dozen "Muad'Dib" in game just cause no one bothered to check how it was spelt.
--
Britannia Futures
The future's bright, the future's Britannia. |
Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 13:10:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Harliquin on 05/10/2003 13:15:13
Quote:
Quote:
So how do you know how ppl want to spell their names? you get irritated by Kathy & Cathey and tell them it should be Cathy?
No, and like I said, it's more of a personal thing - and some names do vary, but on the other hand, it's kinda annoying and confusing to see half a dozen "Muad'Dib" in game just cause no one bothered to check how it was spelt.
And the fact one spelling of a particular name can only be used once in EVE would have nothing to do with the multiple spellings either!
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 14:37:00 -
[53]
Quote:
The only ppl who want highway tolling are :
1: the pirates who saw their choke point gate camping get nerfed by highways.
2: price gouging corps - who are now unable to control markets as they would like or rather don't like the competition the gateways introduce.
So no to gateway tolling. Or as this is such a big issue I suggest Devs hold a vote on it, send a mail to all active accounts and ask players what they think - rather than just relying on the vocal minority on the boards
First, the toll idea was CCP's. The highways were planned to have tolls. The gates denying access for recent agression was the first step towards making the gates discriminate on allowing passage based on certain criteria (was mentioned in a dev blog or something).
2nd, Pirates were always intended to be part of the risk factor in doing business. You think it's accidental that the non-highway connections are low security? That 0.0 space is full of easily identified chokepoints near where the regions connect?
3rd, if you see someone gouging a price you can complain about it. That's what lazy furbearers do best. People with any business sense see it as an opportunity. And it's an opportunity availible to those locally.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.10.05 14:49:00 -
[54]
Highways make the universe seem too small for me, nuff said. If tolls help bringing some of the "vast" feel back then so be it.
As long as those tolls are calculated based on your ship and its cargo I¦m totally fine with it.
And really that "pirates want this cause..." point is the biggest crap I¦ve ever heard.
Pirates were killing people before and even more after the highways came.
Mai's Idealog |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.10.05 17:01:00 -
[55]
Quote:
that is ridiculous
a toll system is stupid
Zezman, stop trolling with your stupid one-line conclusive commentary. If you think it is stupid, then tell us why.
The superhighway system is ruining the market economy. That is just plain fact. The sad thing is that the toll idea is probably the worst "fix" for this issue that is possible, but at least it is getting somewhere.
Really, when you think of it, any toll that they are realistically likely to implement would be extremely burdensome for new players, yet be chump change for the bigger merchants. It is just a really bad way to solve this problem.
The best way would be to remove the highways or to restrict certain types of vessels from going through the highway gates. My solution was to restrict access to shuttles only. That way you can quickly travel from one empire to the other if you need to, but you would have to buy whatever ship you need once you get there.
Even a system by which the highways are restricted to frigates only would be workable. Cruisers and above can too easily be outfitted to act as pseudo-industrials which is the whole point of adding a toll.
Think about it. Imagine they implemented a toll of 50,000 isk per jump. I remember when I was new, 50,000 isk was a good chunk of change (took me a whole day to save up that much for my first condor), but I now throw away 50,000 isk without a second thought.
It just isn't a good idea. Restriction on the type of vessel is the best way, and hell, its much more RP friendly as well. (due to the ability of empires to quickly mass huge fleets and threaten other empire's homeworlds, use of the superhighway system will be restricted to shuttles only).
5 million isk toll is really the only way to make tolls a viable option.
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 17:14:00 -
[56]
Quote:
3rd, if you see someone gouging a price you can complain about it. That's what lazy furbearers do best. People with any business sense see it as an opportunity. And it's an opportunity availible to those locally.
I really have no problem with price gouging and have never complained about it. (see numerous posts defending supercon prices)
If you notice its the pro-tollers complaing they cannot control the markets to start hiking prices - In effect they want tarriffs introduced help local production because they can't be bothered or are too crap to nail an eve-wide market.
I'm against artificial trade barriers - EVE is all about a player controlled market - its just all the corps want that player controlled market on their own terms - real competition is too much for them to handle.
And that make eve bigger again line is pure tosh - I can't play 24/7 so don't want to waste my time spending 30minutes travelling from one place to another.
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Fijou
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Posted - 2003.10.05 17:21:00 -
[57]
Quote:
Even a system by which the highways are restricted to frigates only would be workable. Cruisers and above can too easily be outfitted to act as pseudo-industrials which is the whole point of adding a toll.
One can easily fit a probe to have over 500 cargo space which rivals and surpasses that of many cruisers, so allowing frigates wouldnt exactly solve anything.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 18:00:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Quote:
3rd, if you see someone gouging a price you can complain about it. That's what lazy furbearers do best. People with any business sense see it as an opportunity. And it's an opportunity availible to those locally.
I really have no problem with price gouging and have never complained about it. (see numerous posts defending supercon prices)
If you notice its the pro-tollers complaing they cannot control the markets to start hiking prices - In effect they want tarriffs introduced help local production because they can't be bothered or are too crap to nail an eve-wide market.
I'm against artificial trade barriers - EVE is all about a player controlled market - its just all the corps want that player controlled market on their own terms - real competition is too much for them to handle.
And that make eve bigger again line is pure tosh - I can't play 24/7 so don't want to waste my time spending 30minutes travelling from one place to another.
A completely free market has led us where we are now: people selling blueprint copies instead of manufacturing because the profit margins are so low it's avoiding the mineral aquisition is worth more than actually manufacturing anything. What little market demand there is gets consumed by people importing products that they're paid to take. Because that's essentially what happens when you kill an npc: you're paid a bounty and an item to sell on the market. Which further limits the demand for market goods, especially for imported ones.
You keep saying people want to control the market. You keep ignoring the fact that in order to control the market you have to put forth some effort. Right now the market is in the crapper because people are controlling it with next to no effort. It takes no effort for someone to manufacture in a single location, load up the goods into industrials and undercut everyone in 5 different regions.
A completely free market economy has never worked. It really won't work in Eve since there is next to no cost to manufacture products and absolutely no cost to aquire the same goods without manufacturing. This is a game in the end. That means there have to be opportunities for everyone to share. With the regions so closely connected, the amount of opportunities are shared among more people than they can support.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.10.05 18:06:00 -
[59]
Edited by: j0sephine on 05/10/2003 18:10:15
"One can easily fit a probe to have over 500 cargo space which rivals and surpasses that of many cruisers, so allowing frigates wouldnt exactly solve anything."
... Having the toll be a percentage of cargo value --calculated using market prices-- could be a good start... except it'd require the market to be enhanced so it finally supports trade of NPC drops. (plus, market prices can be quite off base due to current manipulations going... but that's another story)
On second thought, would be much easier to just burn the silly things down. :s
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 18:31:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Edited by: j0sephine on 05/10/2003 18:10:15
"One can easily fit a probe to have over 500 cargo space which rivals and surpasses that of many cruisers, so allowing frigates wouldnt exactly solve anything."
... Having the toll be a percentage of cargo value --calculated using market prices-- could be a good start... except it'd require the market to be enhanced so it finally supports trade of NPC drops. (plus, market prices can be quite off base due to current manipulations going... but that's another story)
On second thought, would be much easier to just burn the silly things down. :s
That was the original suggestion, to remove the damn things. But I think CCP is afraid of drowning in all the tears so that's not an option. We'll have to settle for some enormously complicated method that creates a lot of confusion and tons of tweaking before getting something half as effective.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
PropanElgen
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Posted - 2003.10.05 18:31:00 -
[61]
Ahhh. Potential gamekiller this is.
All the angels and the puny men of god looked away...
Frightened to death by the evil that was born on that day!
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.10.05 19:18:00 -
[62]
Quote:
Ahhh. Potential gamekiller this is.
What a wonderfully insightful addition you have made to this discussion. I doubt you've even read a quarter of the replies, as you might have something more to say than adding a completely useless remark that says and explains nothing.
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 20:42:00 -
[63]
Quote:
You keep saying people want to control the market. You keep ignoring the fact that in order to control the market you have to put forth some effort. Right now the market is in the crapper because people are controlling it with next to no effort. It takes no effort for someone to manufacture in a single location, load up the goods into industrials and undercut everyone in 5 different regions.
No I think you are getting confused, in one breath your saying i'm ignoring the fact it takes effort to control the market (I'm not) then the next line says ppl are controlling the market with little or no effort - well which is it?
Alternativly if you & your corp buddies put in a little effort you could visit all 5 regions and buy up all the stuff being flogged cheaper than yours - then re-market it at your price.
But hey that requires a weeny bit of effort on all you whining corps part - much better to bring in protectionism and carve out the five regions between the mega-corps eh????
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 20:56:00 -
[64]
Quote:
Quote:
You keep saying people want to control the market. You keep ignoring the fact that in order to control the market you have to put forth some effort. Right now the market is in the crapper because people are controlling it with next to no effort. It takes no effort for someone to manufacture in a single location, load up the goods into industrials and undercut everyone in 5 different regions.
No I think you are getting confused, in one breath your saying i'm ignoring the fact it takes effort to control the market (I'm not) then the next line says ppl are controlling the market with little or no effort - well which is it?
Alternativly if you & your corp buddies put in a little effort you could visit all 5 regions and buy up all the stuff being flogged cheaper than yours - then re-market it at your price.
But hey that requires a weeny bit of effort on all you whining corps part - much better to bring in protectionism and carve out the five regions between the mega-corps eh????
Which is it? Sorry I wasn't clear. Currently all the effort needed to control the market in several regions is manufacture more and hop a highway. You can attempt the "Buy out and reprice" method, but you'll find that really doesn't work as whoever you bought out will thank you and manufacture more to the point you can't buy out them out. But you'll have a hell of a stockpile.
After the implementation of tolls, the situation will not change in a person's local region much. If they're capable of controlling the market locally where they manufacture, they will continue to do so easily. It might improve slightly as remote manufacturers are removed from the market (like a friend of mine who used to export MWD from Metropolis to Genesis) providing for new manufacturing lines to spring up locally.
It will definately hinder region specific loot from underpricing the same loot being produced locally. Which again provide local manufacturers the opportunity to go get the blueprint and create a local manufacturing line for those products.
But if a person who has their manufacturing base setup in Metropolis wishes to control the price of 650mm Artillery all the way to Tash Murkon, they will have to put forth an extraordinary amount of effort to bypass the highway tolls and stay profitable. They will have to create a manufacturing base in those regions, dividing their manpower and attention which will allow for perceptive people to profit if they slip. Or they will have to abandon the idea and give those players those regions a chance to manufacture themselves.
The effects on the trade goods market don't need such an explanation, do they?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 21:47:00 -
[65]
Jash, I really think we are going to have to agree to differ on this one, our views on the subject are diametrically opposed.
I can see your points but I cannot agree based on your thinking and my understanding of the effects the changes will have.
The only thing I think we can both agree on is whatever they decide to do one of us will be happ the other won't
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 21:54:00 -
[66]
Quote:
Jash, I really think we are going to have to agree to differ on this one, our views on the subject are diametrically opposed.
I can see your points but I cannot agree based on your thinking and my understanding of the effects the changes will have.
The only thing I think we can both agree on is whatever they decide to do one of us will be happ the other won't
Fair enough. Agreeing to disagree is easy enough given your style of discussing the matter (lack of flames, childish attempts to insult, presenting arguments with supporting reasons) 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Qandor
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Posted - 2003.10.05 21:54:00 -
[67]
Quote:
5 million isk toll is really the only way to make tolls a viable option.
Let's see. It cost 10,000 isk per month to rent a station office with unlimited storage and hangar space and we should have a toll booth charge 5 million isk? I'll go along with the 5 million isk toll, if they just raise office prices to 100 million isk per month. We need to keep things in balance.
There isn't going to be any 5 million isk toll or 1 million isk toll either. If they were going to go that far they would just remove the highway system which apparently (thank god) they aren't prepared to do. So let's just see how this shakes out. There will be plenty of time for whining afterwards.
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2003.10.05 22:02:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Cao Cao on 05/10/2003 22:04:10
Quote:
Quote:
5 million isk toll is really the only way to make tolls a viable option.
Let's see. It cost 10,000 isk per month to rent a station office with unlimited storage and hangar space and we should have a toll booth charge 5 million isk? I'll go along with the 5 million isk toll, if they just raise office prices to 100 million isk per month. We need to keep things in balance.
There isn't going to be any 5 million isk toll or 1 million isk toll either. If they were going to go that far they would just remove the highway system which apparently (thank god) they aren't prepared to do. So let's just see how this shakes out. There will be plenty of time for whining afterwards.
That's my point. They will likely make it a 50k toll at which point it is completely useless. Just restrict the damn things to shuttles or remove them altogether.
EDIT: on second thought, maybe they will be daring enough to implement the 5 million isk toll. After all, it is possible to go from Amarr homeworld to Minmatar homeworld in about 5 minutes, both of which are mortal enemies to each other.
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Lliad
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Posted - 2003.10.05 22:04:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Lliad on 05/10/2003 22:04:35
The only reason office rent is so low is to allow the small corps to rent it. I would have no problem if you put it to 100mil a month. But then only a small number of corps could afford it.
Wheras with the traveling the superhighway is optional so they can introduce any price they want. And i have re-thought my pricing.
shuttles should be free.
frigates probally 500k ish
1 mil for cruisers
3 mil for bs
5 mil for indys.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2003.10.05 22:05:00 -
[70]
If they are removed altogether I'm quitting EVE today, I have no intention of spending 3+ hours a day jumping from system to system just to pick up a few items and I'll even go so far as to say I'm not the only one who feels this way.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.05 22:06:00 -
[71]
Quote:
Quote:
5 million isk toll is really the only way to make tolls a viable option.
Let's see. It cost 10,000 isk per month to rent a station office with unlimited storage and hangar space and we should have a toll booth charge 5 million isk? I'll go along with the 5 million isk toll, if they just raise office prices to 100 million isk per month. We need to keep things in balance.
There isn't going to be any 5 million isk toll or 1 million isk toll either. If they were going to go that far they would just remove the highway system which apparently (thank god) they aren't prepared to do. So let's just see how this shakes out. There will be plenty of time for whining afterwards.
Heh...you don't want me to start that thread do you? 10k per month for office rent is stupidly low and part of the reason why getting offices in good locations is a pain in the ass. Corps have offices they haven't seen in months. And they have no incentive to fly out to them and release them at 10k isk per month. Probably don't even notice the bill when paying others.
But unless the toll carries a fairly good sting to it per jump, it'll solve nothing. The cries about the n00bs is a smokescreen. How many new players have a ship where the toll would become prohibitive based on its mass? Mammoths and other top tier industrials are the biggest vessels if I'm not mistaken. You don't just hop into a Mammoth straight from character creation.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Lliad
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Posted - 2003.10.05 22:08:00 -
[72]
Quote:
If they are removed altogether I'm quitting EVE today, I have no intention of spending 3+ hours a day jumping from system to system just to pick up a few items and I'll even go so far as to say I'm not the only one who feels this way.
why do you travel so much? if you are buying things all the time, you must be buying pure crap. Buy the bp instead and make your own. And even with the gates i still travel upwards of 60 jumps a day. it takes like 20 mins to jump 30 gates. Hardly much.
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Harliquin
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Posted - 2003.10.05 22:09:00 -
[73]
Quote:
Fair enough. Agreeing to disagree is easy enough given your style of discussing the matter (lack of flames, childish attempts to insult, presenting arguments with supporting reasons)
Indeed - It does seem to be a fairly emotive subject though
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Xelios
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Posted - 2003.10.05 22:15:00 -
[74]
Lliad, were you here at release? The reason they put in the superhighway gates is because everyone was annoyed at the travel time. 30 jumps takes longer than 20 minutes in anything but a shuttle, and you can't always drive a shuttle around. And no I'm not buying pure crap, I'm buying things like rare pirate loot, mostly things off the trade channel, things that you can't just buy on the market.
Like I said, I've spent a month without highway gates before and it's not something I'll do again. I'm paying for this game to have fun, not to stare at the screen for an hour while I make the 60 jump trip to Molden Heath or wherever it is I need to go.
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Lliad
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Posted - 2003.10.05 22:18:00 -
[75]
Quote:
Lliad, were you here at release? The reason they put in the superhighway gates is because everyone was annoyed at the travel time. 30 jumps takes longer than 20 minutes in anything but a shuttle, and you can't always drive a shuttle around. And no I'm not buying pure crap, I'm buying things like rare pirate loot, mostly things off the trade channel, things that you can't just buy on the market.
Like I said, I've spent a month without highway gates before and it's not something I'll do again. I'm paying for this game to have fun, not to stare at the screen for an hour while I make the 60 jump trip to Molden Heath or wherever it is I need to go.
Yes i was hear at release. And anyone intending to do long jump trips can make their ship go much faster than a shuttle. so 30 jumps in 20 mins is a perfectly realistic time. Also why dont you just save your isk and do it once a month. Or else have some fun and go get it yourself for free.
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Cptn Stardust
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Posted - 2003.10.05 22:42:00 -
[76]
i would go against the toll idea, unless they could come up with a good idea 'what all that toll money is spent on'
in the meantime, i favour:
getting rid of the highway systems
putting 0.0 dangerous space in-between the empire regions
player piracy was always meant to be a part of this game, and why should all the player pirates be kicked out to 0.0 systems (there ain't hardly anything out there) - They can't pirate out there, just fight amongst other pirate corps
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Agent Red
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Posted - 2003.10.05 22:50:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Agent Red on 05/10/2003 22:50:42
Quote:
i would go against the toll idea, unless they could come up with a good idea 'what all that toll money is spent on'
i pay $8 every time i cross the george washington bridge to nyc. god knows where all that money goes. the answer is into the black hole called government "revenue."
kthx
agent red |
Fester Addams
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Posted - 2003.10.06 00:14:00 -
[78]
Ok, a bunch of people want there to be a toll on the super highways.
Fair enough however like most people agree if there is to be a toll it has to be large enough for people to actually care.
Lets say they put the toll at 5k, noone not even the newbies will care, sure its isk but noone travels enough to make such a charge anything to bother about.
Lets say its 50k, this will not affect 90% of the player population one bit, Im not wealthy like many other players but I would cough upp the 50k for the convenience of it being one jump rather than 10, the last 10% however will be devastated, the newbies, untill you can get a cruiser 50k is alot of cash, why block them out.
Then its the fantasy numbers, 500k, 5M and so on... why would there be such a charge, its not reasonable.
So in short, IF and I do say if a toll is implemented it will become an anoyance but nothing of real importance to all but the new players and why punish them?
My guess is there will be no tolls.
Naturaly if you look at some of the posts you can see alternate motives.
Easiest one to spot is pirates wanting the highway systems shut down as then people would have to fly past a number of less secure systems and thus become potential targets for their piracy...
It is understandable that they are frustrated that the actions of a few of them has created the situation we have today with high restrictions on their activityhowever I cant see why I should have to spend 4-5hrs or more going the scenic route when the game has already had superhighways implemented just to satisfy their bloodlust.
As for the idea with 0.0 space between the "empires", Im all for that IF the 0.0 systems are not chokepoints like the EvE universe is created now. Now if you locate a strategicly well placed system then you can be sure it has the lowest security rating there is (with the exeption of the superhighways).
Then we have the argument that the superhighways are killing the market, this is false, the market is flawed on the lowest level, the superhighways do very little to worsen that situation and most of us know this.
so what have we, implement a toll to make life alot harder for the players that are harming noone in favor of players who vocaly state that the object of their game is to attack other players... Im sorry pirates you have no case.
My guess is there will be no toll on account of the new players.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.10.06 00:20:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 06/10/2003 00:21:33
Quote:
...
My guess is there will be no toll on account of the new players.
Quote:
[ 2003.10.01 23:00:45 ] Jash Illian > Is anything planned to restrict 'Highway' access to smaller ships, such as shuttles, to counter the negative effects the highways are having on the market? (homogenization of market prices, the limited demand across multiple regions now easily accessible by the same manufacturers, the trade market being cornered by fewer individuals due to far less travel time).
[ 2003.10.01 23:01:56 ] TomB > You want that shuttles don't have access to the Highway jumps?
[ 2003.10.01 23:02:26 ] Jash Illian > actually I'd prefer if only shuttles had access to the highways. the regions are too close together now
[ 2003.10.01 23:02:49 ] TomB > Ok, yes we have plans for something like that
[ 2003.10.01 23:03:10 ] TomB > But not really restricting specific ships for it
[ 2003.10.01 23:03:26 ] TomB > But rather toll players for using them, based on mass of the ship.
The ships a new player has access to are miniscule in terms of mass.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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