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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Sorethen
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Posted - 2006.07.28 22:12:00 -
[181]
Sorry for the caps here but I didn't see anybody say this and it needs to be said loudly:
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ALLOW US TO BLOCK/IGNORE CONTRACTS ON AN ACCOUNT BASIS
If block only works on a user name we'll just see all the same spammers/con artists doing the same thing by changing their user name over and over. I'm not saying we need to be able to see what their main user name is but the filter NEEDS to let us block their whole account permanently.
On to other comments, I think tax is a good idea as it can give a meaning to "trader" skills but don't implement it if there are loopholes because that will ruin the system overall.
For example: You really want courier missions to have the option of showing what they are asking to have transported. This allows people to kind of "sell" items through courier missions by displaying the item and just asking for the collateral as the price then "failing" the mission to complete the sale.
The solution to this is somewhat complicated but it is possible to solve.
1) Put the item in some sort of "courier cargo" container that can't be opened unless the mission is failed (of course allowing both the contractor and contractee to fail it if they wish). 2) If a mission is failed the contract issuer has to pay market taxes on the collateral he recieves.
If you can't make sure loopholes like these are fixed up then don't put in the taxes because everyone will just use the loopholes and we'll get stupid stuff like tons of items for sale being spammed in the courier missions to avoid the taxes.
There is also a really good incentive to fix all tax loopholes. If you can fix all the tax loopholes you can enforce regional trading through taxes.
Say you setup this system and everyone tries to go to Jita as a contract market hub. Since all the contracts are properly taxed you can just slam all those people with a huge "excessive traffic" tax untill the market starts dispersing.
Also on the matter of regional trading I think it's a good idea but not for everything. There needs to be a global (or semi global at least) market for many super rare items. So create a sort of global market for these items and ONLY these items. I mean if someone has some sort of rare deadspace hardener there is no way they can sell that properly through a regional market system. Either a hub will be allowed to form or people just won't even use the in game system.
None of us want to see even more concentrated hubs. Additionally the only reason to use forums or a chat channel should be to avoid taxes honestly. The only choice is to suck it up and admit some items need a global sales system. Maybe it doesn't have to be totally global of course. You could say setup some NPC corp alliance that runs a black market with several stations scattered about. Or you could setup three black markets that span huge area's of space.
It doesn't really matter as long as you guys finally admit "regions" are too small a space to sell rare items in.
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Anwyl
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.28 22:25:00 -
[182]
There's always the other way of getting those ultra-rares. Ask your alliance if they have one. Alliances get global(REALLY bad word I now realize, how about universal) trades, it gives incentive to get into a big alliance quickly, whether this is good or bad is another issue... Though it would be better to have only ultra-rares be on the global list than everything
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Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.07.28 22:33:00 -
[183]
anwyl try real trading first then you can talk about removing global escrow. we don't care about you hauling cows from one place to the other, but highend deals require the global availability. and don't even start with this alliance BS because thats what it is. pure BS.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.07.28 22:54:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 28/07/2006 22:57:24 I ment traders who have 7 accounts, no that there are 7 trader lords. i can imagine that one can have more then 10 accounts, but that really starts to get messy.
The other point is that your preferences have absolutely no effect on what is the most effective way of playing eve. And the most effective way to do everything (besides pvp, i think that caps out at 3 accounts) is to have as many accounts as you can afford and manage. It doesnt matter whether you consider it "fun", the point is that others will do it - just read the thread about constellation sovereignty here in general - im so glad that i spend my time ripping people off instead of calculating reinforced mode timers and setting up POS at 47 moons. When i say afk hauling, i mean afk hauling on accounts 2-7 who are on dual/ tripple log or on another computer if you use this one to pvp.
You cannot enforce regional trading without making the system not only a pain, but a REAL pain. Why should you invest thousands of development hours into making up things to make the players life worse?
From my experiences trading, people actually begged me to buy their stuff at 300m discount because they were so totally sick of trying to sell it. Contract systems wont change it, by the looks of it, it will make it worse. Of course, noone knows the exact parameters, if you need to train 256k SP (rank 1 skill to V) for 1000 open contracts, and Jita gets a separate cluster to handle the 2500 people in local, business will be as usual. But really, it doesnt sound good. Skills - check, arbitrary limitations - check, annoying, walletspamming ISK sink - check. All of them sound like the smart way would be to avoid the system, wether you actually can doesnt matter - and a system that makes you want to avoid it cannot really be fun now, can it? The sad part is that most of it can be avoided unless you make the client a forced fullscreen mode that breaks on alt-tab like many other (singleplayer) games out there.
I thought the purpose of it was to make trading and deal-making of all forms easier and less painful for the common man, to introduce many interesting (or just plain obvious) features - but so far, the only people who are cheering are the traders.
What i am now really interested in is wether the devs in general, and especially the poor guy who wrote that actually pretty good blog expected such a response, or wether it took them by suprise.
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CYVOK
Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.28 22:58:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Balthamael
Originally by: CYVOK -NO NEW SKILLS! -NO CONTRACT LIMITS FOR CEO's -CONTRACTS FOR "ALLIANCE ONLY" & "CORP ONLY" -NO FEES FOR INTERNAL CORP/ALLIANCE CONTRACTS
-GOBAL issue. Limit traffic by allowing a "buyer" to search for specific items. Or, make the gobal browser out of game so a member can browse and then go to the location in game later.
I guess I am asking that you guys let us PLAY the game instead of constantly WORK at it.
Totally agree with you here CYVOK. Great idea about the global search function. That might be a good solution to the "no global sale"
This is actually the case with Alliance/Corporation contracts, they dont have limits, are global and don't cost anything either iirc.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:16:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Keta Min anwyl try real trading first then you can talk about removing global escrow. we don't care about you hauling cows from one place to the other, but highend deals require the global availability. and don't even start with this alliance BS because thats what it is. pure BS.
What do you know about anything but Gatecamping AMI/Kor-Azor
Global Escrow is trading for the simple-minded
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:18:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Anwyl There's always the other way of getting those ultra-rares. Ask your alliance if they have one. Alliances get global(REALLY bad word I now realize, how about universal) trades, it gives incentive to get into a big alliance quickly, whether this is good or bad is another issue... Though it would be better to have only ultra-rares be on the global list than everything
That's all true but as the saying goes "Water seeks it's lowest level" (I think that's it right?).
If the system is implemented as it is now people will seek the easiest method to use it. The easiest method will be everyone going to Jita and creating all their regional contracts there. If the dev's somehow block that people just won't trade rares in game at all. They'll start up advanced item trading sites the minute escrow is removed or they'll just use forums.
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Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:23:00 -
[188]
Originally by: MOOstradamus
Originally by: Keta Min anwyl try real trading first then you can talk about removing global escrow. we don't care about you hauling cows from one place to the other, but highend deals require the global availability. and don't even start with this alliance BS because thats what it is. pure BS.
What do you know about anything but Gatecamping AMI/Kor-Azor
Global Escrow is trading for the simple-minded
how does camping lowsec interfere with t2 BPO/implant/faction mods+ship trading? get a clue.
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Dakath
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:41:00 -
[189]
Nice, but means nothing unless escrow scammers get flagged as ****y.
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Anwyl
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:47:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Keta Min
how does camping lowsec interfere with t2 BPO/implant/faction mods+ship trading? get a clue.
You do realize these ships do fit in cargo holds... Anything that fits in a cargo hold and can be bought and sold can potentially be used for profit. I've heard of quite a few traders getting blown up carrying such nice critters as command ship BPOs... not the nicest thing to lose that way...
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Feynt Rovigo
Far Ranger
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Posted - 2006.07.28 23:58:00 -
[191]
New features: good. Non-global: bad.
My constructive two ISK:
- If the CROTCH cannot be global at first, leave the current escrow system in place alongside the new one until it can be corrected.
- I am insulted that my existing trade skills would not help me in the contracts system (at a minimum, Trade should allow me more contracts, and Accounting and Broker relations should be the fee-reducing skills for contracts. And each character should start with at least 5, not just 1.
- Perhaps contracts could default to regional range with a doubling of the taxes for global (or other disincentives, rather than a flat prohibition).
- If full global reach can never be established, at least enable the viewing of all-regions-that-touch-this-one.
- To limit the crushing burden of taxes on big items, make the taxes formulaic, e.g., 10% for a 100 ISK contract and 0.01% for a 100 billion ISK contract with some curve in the middle.
- Leave me an ability to browse available contracts at will, both locally and globally, since I sometimes stumble on stuff I end up buying.
- Move some escrow features to the website, where the software-client burden might be less (e.g., maybe global browsing is available only via the web, but global search is in game, so you can execute the transaction you saw listed on the web).
As currently described, the benefits of this CROTCH are outclassed by the glaring problems.
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Virtuozzo
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.29 00:01:00 -
[192]
Originally by: CYVOK
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Balthamael
Originally by: CYVOK -NO NEW SKILLS! -NO CONTRACT LIMITS FOR CEO's -CONTRACTS FOR "ALLIANCE ONLY" & "CORP ONLY" -NO FEES FOR INTERNAL CORP/ALLIANCE CONTRACTS
-GOBAL issue. Limit traffic by allowing a "buyer" to search for specific items. Or, make the gobal browser out of game so a member can browse and then go to the location in game later.
I guess I am asking that you guys let us PLAY the game instead of constantly WORK at it.
Totally agree with you here CYVOK. Great idea about the global search function. That might be a good solution to the "no global sale"
This is actually the case with Alliance/Corporation contracts, they dont have limits, are global and don't cost anything either iirc.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't get yer hopes up. We'll see it before we believe it. In any case, it's still missing standings support .. too many potential ways to abuse in that alone Virtuozzo
RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.07.29 00:48:00 -
[193]
I think it is kinda funny how so many complain that the lack of global and introduction of new skills will make it harder on them. Know what? That's the point!
If things were easy, there would be no need for the middle men, the trader, the finder, etc. |
Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.07.29 01:15:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Anwyl
You do realize these ships do fit in cargo holds... Anything that fits in a cargo hold and can be bought and sold can potentially be used for profit. I've heard of quite a few traders getting blown up carrying such nice critters as command ship BPOs... not the nicest thing to lose that way...
when you improve your reading comprehension the ability to see posts in the right context, your posts will make sense too!
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.29 01:15:00 -
[195]
MOOstradamus, you can justify removing long range weapons from the game. It dosn't make it sensible or balanced. Nerfing escrow will just, as has been noted, move it out of the game to more powerful tools which will reduce the clutter and make it easier to use, if anything. Then use a PRIVATE contract to move it, which as noted will be cheap.
There will be, if anything, a drastic increase in this sort of trading. CCP, by nerfing escrow, force the creation of a OOG replacement. And you can make that replacement BETTER.
It's not "for the simple minded", it's simple reflection of the fact that removing gameplay functionality outright punishes players. You make it impossible for them to continue to do the entirely reasonable things they did yesterday. And you're arguing for Jita to be 2000 players. That makes no sense.
Anwyl, why? The idea is fatally comprimised by the 1 base. What it retains (for private use) is no better than current escrow, and developer time has been spent on it.
Infinity Ziona;
"What I mean is if you put a sell order up in Inghenges which has few sell orders then you would incur almost no tax but if you put one up in Jita which is flooded, then you incur a much larger tax."
Actually, the response will be simplier. People will go and play games which don't punish them for playing. The market order limits have limited the spread of the market - CCP's artificial limits - and setting more will do even more damage to the market. It becomes easier to make your own, and avoid the punishing game mechanics for getting T2 and so on.
Sorethen, that's an invasion of privacy. It's a tool to figure out alts, plain and simple. And implimenting even more punishing regiemes will just lead to less and less people using it in favour of OOG tools which are a pleasure to use.
"create a sort of global market for these items and ONLY these items."
No, why should CCP discriminate? A lot of items are super rare like named MAPC's which it's HIGHLY useful to be able to look for globally, which your idea will exclude, and it'll allow things like named smartbombs which are pretty useless for a global search since they sell VERY slowly.
Kldraina, if the point is to be useless, yes. But this was supposed to be a useful feature. The OOG methods which will spring up are going to, by and large cut out the middle men. Certainly I expect less business when they can connect direct.
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Kitty O'Shay
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.07.29 01:18:00 -
[196]
Contracts system as decribed leads to a new mini-profession: Personal Shopper
But seriously, this is how things happen now: I kill a ship, it drops a faction mod. I alt haul it to a Hub, and set it on escrow for the buyout price. I post a Sell Orders auction. I re-escrow it to the winner if the buyout isn't taken.
How this will change with the new system: I kill a ship, it drops a faction mod. I alt haul it to a Hub. I post a Sell Orders auction. I post a private contract to the winner.
Why do I skip creating an auction contract?
Because I don't want to train contract skills on a same-account alt. Also I don't want to pay the fees to list an item that can't be seen by all of Eve!
Welcome to Jita, where everyone is a shopping-alt.
A new game feature that requires the use of an alt or second account IS NOT a feature that benefits the player base. --
[THARS] is recruiting 1 ebil pirate. Be the one! |
Dak Hakin
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.07.29 01:32:00 -
[197]
I predict there will soon be an ISK timesink just to dock the ships, or to use jump gates.
Thanks, I love having to train for new stuff all the time. Too bad people arent smart enough to actually be able to enter more than one contract without training for a month.
"Ah, I'll enter another contract now to move these guns. Oh, crap, while I was able to enter my first contract without flaw, I seem to have forgotten how to enter them! Dammit!"
_______________________________________________ I am the devil, and I'm here to do the devils work.
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Packtu'sa
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.29 01:52:00 -
[198]
Err ... wtf?
I'm actually fine with regional contracts, if this limitation only applies to Auction contracts, and if there will be some sort of skill (similar to Visability) that increases the range--by REGIONS! How about for each level of the skill, your public contracts will be visable for two regions further. Mmkay?
Now, as for the number of contracts being limited by a skill, oh, yeah, that's a fantastic idea, how about-- NO!!!
How are we supposed to manage our corporations--let alone an alliance or any sort of business--if we are limited, no matter what the maximum is? Give us unlimited ffs, it doesn't make any sense to limit it.
Packtu'sa Founder/CEO Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp |
illm
JuBa Corp
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Posted - 2006.07.29 01:52:00 -
[199]
What the hell is up with the kindergarden name??
Quote: Your ship will be equipped with a Contract Relay Operating Tachyon Communications Hub (one drawback with that, the abbreviation is CROTCH).
Oh yes, what a sad, sad "drawback". Like it wasn't a few random words picked to fit an intended abbrevation. "Oops, putting those words together made it turn out to spell CROTCH, how unfortunate. Well, we can't change it because of that, can we?"
Yes, this will make it so much easier to show the games to others:
- And here we have the ... ehr, crotch. - The what?? - *sigh*
(Oh and I agree with the people raising concerns around the no-global issue)
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Maya Rkell
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.29 03:03:00 -
[200]
illm, it's not as bad as the Nintendo Wii.
Can you imagine a 10-year old kid trying to ask his parents for one for Christmass? I have, it's quite funny.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.07.29 04:10:00 -
[201]
if contracts a) visible only regionwide b) taxable then why would anyone bother to use them over the market? auctions, well if one wants the auction, he posts one in sell forum for global coverage, and places the item on market for buyout price...
btw I wonder does the ingenious dev, who originally thought up that no global part, have an access to all regions market/contract data and a trader alt? might explain certain things.
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Jon Anser
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.29 04:18:00 -
[202]
Quote: Good way to exchange your megathron navy bpo for a raven navy bpo.
Fraction ship BPO?
also consider this:
-region limit extended to region and connected regions or each npc fraction's space -extend no of noob contracts to 3 or 4 -allow sellers to list their contracts globaly.. for an extra fee to handle the "paperwork" -Allow player alliances to set and recieve the taxes in owned space
grr eve website is skrewwy
@$%# sig nerfing (origional) Teh Goose is teh PWn |
Kespii
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.29 07:33:00 -
[203]
I hope ccp will know that barely anyone will sell their expensive stuff on auctions and escrow anymore. Trading forums ftw....so ccp...just dont do it
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Ulle
Red Frog Investments Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.07.29 07:54:00 -
[204]
I can survive most, no global can add some difficulties and force me to move a bit but with some organization it can be done.
Just, I don't understand taxes. How can you tax a courier mission ? No taxes means that players will start using them to avoid taxes on direct transactions, thus making them useless. Taxes on collaterals ? That would make no sense and just nerf all the couriers subsystem.
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.07.29 08:04:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Maya Rkell MOOstradamus, you can justify removing long range weapons from the game. It dosn't make it sensible or balanced. Nerfing escrow will just, as has been noted, move it out of the game to more powerful tools which will reduce the clutter and make it easier to use, if anything. Then use a PRIVATE contract to move it, which as noted will be cheap.
There will be, if anything, a drastic increase in this sort of trading. CCP, by nerfing escrow, force the creation of a OOG replacement. And you can make that replacement BETTER.
It's not "for the simple minded", it's simple reflection of the fact that removing gameplay functionality outright punishes players. You make it impossible for them to continue to do the entirely reasonable things they did yesterday. And you're arguing for Jita to be 2000 players. That makes no sense.
Anwyl, why? The idea is fatally comprimised by the 1 base. What it retains (for private use) is no better than current escrow, and developer time has been spent on it.
Wow its right what they say about you ..
Maya Rkell As a keen market trader I'm sure you realise there is no global viewing option here or a so called compromise of this drop-down menu option a few lazy players are calling for
Originally by: Kldraina I think it is kinda funny how so many complain that the lack of global and introduction of new skills will make it harder on them. Know what? That's the point!
If things were easy, there would be no need for the middle men, the trader, the finder, etc.
Exactly
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.07.29 08:10:00 -
[206]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 29/07/2006 08:13:34
Originally by: Keta Min how does camping lowsec interfere with t2 BPO/implant/faction mods+ship trading? get a clue.
So you think trading is docking & placing loot on Global escrow ..
Like I said earlier - obviously this is the simpletons / Maya Rkell definition
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
Keta Min
Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2006.07.29 08:17:00 -
[207]
Originally by: MOOstradamus Edited by: MOOstradamus on 29/07/2006 08:13:34
Originally by: Keta Min how does camping lowsec interfere with t2 BPO/implant/faction mods+ship trading? get a clue.
So you think trading is docking & placing loot on Global escrow ..
Like I said earlier - obviously this is the simpletons / Maya Rkell definition
thanks for proving that you have no idea what people are talking about in this thread.
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2006.07.29 08:20:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Keta Min
thanks for proving that you have no idea what people are talking about in this thread.
Thanks for the generic no content comeback
MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer |
DrAtomic
Polytope Ghosts of Retribution
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Posted - 2006.07.29 11:32:00 -
[209]
Whilst I can see the reason for non-global being performance, it really doesnot help it will further increase traffic to main hubs like Jita. Incoming 1000 people in local?
The solution would be to allow global contracts but put constraints on the filter. I.e. it is impossible to view all contracts globally but it is possible to view subsets/types of contracts globally. Work with forced filters instead of making the system non-global. Or.... allow us to view other regions from anywhere without requiring physical presence (ow and make that for the market system as well).
The current market design is allready very poor with you havign to fly (slow!) to all the regions in order to check the prices there. Allow us to select a region from anywhere without actually being there.
And from a fiction point of view how can it be that we cant have interregional information without actually being there? ----------------------------------------------- The BIG Lottery |
Rafein
Eye of God Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.07.29 11:35:00 -
[210]
I was a supporter of the reginal markets, and the no global Escrows does strengthen the regional markets.
I'm more concerned with the # of contracts out. Have a price should help with the scammers (hey, that 1 trip listed as a Raven will cost 25k isk to list?? If it doesn;t sell, your outta the isk, so a good change)
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