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Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.07.28 02:23:00 -
[1]
This isn't a gripe thread. Many have expressed the desire for the Abaddon to be a carrier vs the current incarnaion, to fill out the Amarr abilites rather than just combing the abilites of the two battleships we already have.
The Arbitrator line shows that Amarr do use drones as a racial weapon as well as lasers, and that line has shown to be a solid ship, as well as our best pvp line. Now is the best chance as the desighns are still being finialzed to change the Abaddon, so please discuse and sighn if you would like to see this happen.
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TribalBleb
Turbulent
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Posted - 2006.07.28 02:34:00 -
[2]
/signed
Having an amarr drone bs would be awesome, its probably not going to happen tho because the modal Abaddon modal is designed to fit 8 turrets
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Cohkka
LoneWolf Mining R i s e
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Posted - 2006.07.28 03:00:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Cohkka on 28/07/2006 03:01:00 A Carrier you say? Make the new Gallente tier 3 BS a Titan, please... Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Hijara
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.28 03:13:00 -
[4]
What is it with you drone whiners?!!! The Abaddon is meant to be a Tachyon sniper, its kinda obvious with the bonuses. The Abaddon is like the bastard son of the Geddon and an apoc, with the best of both. You've got a rof bonus which is good cause Beam rof is kinda poor, and a resist bonus which with 2 Nano adaptive II's will be "wtf where did my damage go?!" seriously the Abaddon is fine as it is. Amarr arent gallente drone users. The arbitor is one freak incident to give the amarr the OPTION of using drones. i dont mind the drone bay on my Apoc, and i can use heavies. But over 30% of my skills are in Gunnery. As it should be. If you want a drone ship, train to a dominix, as NOTHING beats it as a drone carrier, except a carrier
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.28 03:16:00 -
[5]
I've always wanted a drone boat for amarr but what if we just had it as a Tracking Disruptor BS? I don't think any Amarr ship should have more than 6 midslots though...we aren't THAT good you know.
It would be an awesome ship given the fact that all the tier 3 BS's are turret based =P
So what about that...and if you reallllyy want it to be cool instead of "cool-ish" you could always give it a bonus similar to the augoror. +10% bonus to armor HP per level or something.
All I know is that the Amarr are only missing one kind of battleship. That battleship is a "support" battleship. Scorpion, Dominix (kind of), uhh...minmatar uhhh...flying garbage can I guess is support? I don't know bout them.
As it stands a ganking ship/tanking ship are already in the Amarr fleet...no need for a masquerading ganking/tanking ship. The Amarr would be mopping the floor with their faces if they fought any other racial fleet as it stands. I'm surprised the caldari would even want to ally with technologically inferior people.
Amarr need a ship that will balance their lineup...another ganking/tanking ship doesn't do that. Wouldn't be surprised if it had the sensor strength of a frigate in all honesty (not talking about lockon speed or anything). ---
Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales!
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Apertotes
Nuevos Horizontes
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Posted - 2006.07.28 04:17:00 -
[6]
wow, you want a ship wit 7 mids, 7 lows, 20 total slots, 300 drone bay, and 3 bonuses?
even though i would like it, since i would love a real drone ship, i think it is too much.
better something like 6/5/8
bonus
10% heavy drone damage 5% drone tracking
Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve |
Vera Nosfyu
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.28 04:35:00 -
[7]
The Arbitrator does not show that the Amarr use drones as a racial weapon. In fact, it says in the description that it's the exception, not the rule. By the same logic as this I could point at the Inquisitor and ask CCP to give you a missile boat and it would still seem grossly inappropriate. -----------------------------------------------------------
"Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin |
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.07.28 04:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Apertotes wow, you want a ship wit 7 mids, 7 lows, 20 total slots, 300 drone bay, and 3 bonuses?
even though i would like it, since i would love a real drone ship, i think it is too much.
better something like 6/5/8
bonus
10% heavy drone damage 5% drone tracking
The Abaddon will already have 20 slots at 8/4/8, and the Dominix has three bonus with a 375 m3 drone bay. Also went with armour resists/drone speed/drone sig radius as the Dominix has turret dmg/Drone dmg/Drone hps so as not to just be making a bigger Dominix.
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webkert
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.28 04:53:00 -
[9]
Abaddon will be usefull if it gets enough grid/cpu to be fitted properly. However there wont be much use for the apoc once tier 3 bs are out. The cap bonus is completly wasted considering you need a cap injector anyway to run a good tank, and its damage aint very good either. So I'd much rather have the apoc remade to a drone ship.
7 medium slots is too much on an armortanking ship. That would be way to powerfull, atleast with the current state of ecm.
And hopefully if the apoc is remade it will be usefull for solo pvp. Right now amarr doenst have any battleships that are decent for solo.
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Thana Tos
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Posted - 2006.07.28 04:57:00 -
[10]
I know, it will be an excellent laser boat, rof bonus, resists, blah blah blah..
but still.. please make it a drone carrier. Even Khanid. Kthx.
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BirdBleed
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Posted - 2006.07.28 05:24:00 -
[11]
i agree, amarr allready have 2 turret/tank bships, we certainly dont want ANOTHER.
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Zanon Xiu
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Posted - 2006.07.28 05:38:00 -
[12]
id be all over it we need more drone ships
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Lo3d3R
Implant Liberation Front
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Posted - 2006.07.28 05:41:00 -
[13]
NO droneship plz (rain for carrier), 8 gungoodness ftbbq!!! ___________________
Eating Chopped Bear: |
Victavious Asmandi
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.29 02:51:00 -
[14]
Hey, while we are at it, can we get a 375 drone bay for the Rohk as well? Caldari need some more drone loveing as well.
"Hi, I am Caldari, and i like drones".
Drones are my friends.....poor little buggers.
There once was an old Kangaroo, Who's Tail had been painted bright blue. "Now why", said his friend, "Did they paint just one end? When his face realy needed it too". |
Mr Peanut
The New Empire R i s e
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Posted - 2006.07.29 03:08:00 -
[15]
Want a bigger arby? Try the Curse. While I would love to fly a BS arby, I wouldn't think it fair for the Gallente.
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LordSlay Them
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.07.29 03:34:00 -
[16]
Edited by: LordSlay Them on 29/07/2006 03:37:03 I would rather have a tachyon sniper, and hop in my domi when i felt like using drones.
- Lord
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Caesar Galactus
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.29 05:44:00 -
[17]
Signed, damnit. While I would love a drone BS, I would settle for anything different. We have a competent 8 Tach sniper, a monster tank, the second best mining BS, and L4 mission runner in one ship, and this role is being usurped entirely by the Abaddon. Make no mistake, the Apoc will be completely pointless. The Geddon will still be a great low-cost option, and 7 T2 Tachs (or Pulses/Beams, if you want) lay down the *****while being much gentler on cap than the Abaddon's insulting 8 turret, no cap bonus setup.
Amarr are huge drone users. Any dedicated Amarrian's DPS shoots up whenever he devotes some time to training drones. They are our only recourse for weapons variety barring comedy Projectile tanks.
Of course, the Abaddon could also be turned into something entirely focused towards EW. Perhaps bonuses to Tracking Disruptors (keeping with the Arbitrator/Crucifier theme) and one other EW device.
Or how about something new? A smartbomb boat? A mini-Dread with token mini-Siege Mode? At this point, I would even prefer an armed industrial ship to the watered-down hunk of unoriginality that the Abaddon is about to become.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.07.29 06:06:00 -
[18]
Drone boats lose a slot. Ishkur has one slot fewer than all other assault frigates, Ishtar has the fewest turret slots of all HACs, Vexor is low on slots, and the Dominix has the same slot count as a Scorpion - 18, instead of 19 which all other battleships have. If the Abaddon is to be a drone boat, it would have 18 or 19 slots, certainly not 20. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.07.29 08:31:00 -
[19]
I had a silly thought: They could make the Abaddon the bastard child of the Arbitrator, and the Inquisitor. Give it 4 missile hard points, a bonus to drones, and a bonus to missile EM damage, and 6-6-6 slot layout. :) |
Kunming
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.29 10:28:00 -
[20]
Since, more or less:
Omen -> Geddon (DMG) Maller -> Apoc (TANK)
I was also expecting the Abaddon to be like a bigger Arbitrator.. what Amarr really miss is a good skirmish ship like a raven or domi.
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Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.07.29 11:11:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Madcat Adams on 29/07/2006 11:12:04
Originally by: Apertotes
better something like 6/5/8
bonus
10% heavy drone damage 5% drone tracking
Actually, this idea is growing on me.
Say 6/6/7 5% armour resists 5% drone speed/5% drone tracking
I use the double drone bonus as the Dominix has one, and the Curse as well, take it comes in pairs? If not then just the drone tracking. Functions as a well armoured mobile drone ship that supports the fleet with solid EW capability.
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Sniser
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.07.29 11:13:00 -
[22]
dont touch my abaddon!, 8 turrets with RoF ftw
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Krulla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.29 11:32:00 -
[23]
Personally, I'll be very very afraid of the abbadon.. it's the perfect gankship, stop whining.
A Amarr drone BS would be massively out of whack. You've got ONE ship, ONE, geared towards drones, and it's description even says it somewhat of a oddball amarr ship.
I want the abbadon to be a 8/4/8 with 8 missile slots, 'cuz the Inquisitor clearly shows that Missiles are a Amarrian weapon!
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Daz Sampson
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Posted - 2006.07.29 11:42:00 -
[24]
"You've got ONE ship, ONE, geared towards drones, " err no
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Deja Thoris
Contraband Inc.
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Posted - 2006.07.29 11:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: LordSlay Them Edited by: LordSlay Them on 29/07/2006 03:37:03 I would rather have a tachyon sniper, and hop in my domi when i felt like using drones.
- Lord
You have a tachyon sniper. It's called a geddon.
Variety is what the OP is asking for. Not a geddon and apoc rolled into one.
I happen to agree with him.
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Krulla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.29 12:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Daz Sampson "You've got ONE ship, ONE, geared towards drones, " err no
Err yes? Unless of course you coun't the tech II versions, in which case you've got three. 3 out of 29.
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Flash Landsraad
Nexus Legion Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.29 12:47:00 -
[27]
Give the Abaddon:
5% Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per level 5% NOS effectiveness per level
With a large drone bay and it's like a BS sized curse
Afterall we Amarr people are tracking disruptors and NOS in the ewar department...
Might be a tad overpowered though
How about:
5% Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per level 5% Armour resistances per level
With 8/4/8 layout
8x pulse, scram, web, cap injector, tracking disruptor, 2x Large T2 Rep, 2x EANM2, 1600mm plate, 3x T2 Heat Sinks
*Kisses Amarr BS 5 (A man can dream can't he?)
Signature removed due to lack of Eve-related content. -Ivan K Fair enough Ivan, sorry :( - Flash |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.29 13:03:00 -
[28]
personally i think that a droneboat needs the default drone bonus +10% damage/hitpoints/mining and so the abaddon should get that one too. to seperate it from the domi you can still have a different sized dronebay and maybe give the domi a second dronebonus to make sure gallente can keep the main drone-bs. without those up to 50% more damage and hitpoints the abaddon's drones would be far too weak comapred to other droneboats.
also in regards to the "tier3 drone bs > tier 1 drone bs argument" : a drone-abaddon could always have lower base stats/slots than the other tier 3 bs or one could simply stick to laser gank for the abaddon and change the geddon/apoc to a drone-bs instead.
regarding the "drones are not a typical amarr weapons" stuff: that may be true for the fiction but most certainly not for the situation we have on the server right now. the arbi isnt just one single ignoreable cruiser we have its our very best cruiser for most pvp related activity. vera should actually be very aware of this as she and her corpmates were on the recieving end of an arbi more than a few times.
you cant really go with fiction alone for balancing issues as that would require amarr fleets to always outnumber their opponents and lasers to be much more powerful than they currently are. our storywise strengths just dont translate well/at all into something resembling balance.
restricting amarr (battleships) to lasers only produces a massive weakness as such a fleet can be countered quiet easily. sure we can still crush our enemies if we always bring superior numbers and size as we should do as per storyline but i dont think thats what we should aim for.
a good way to give amarrian battleships the much needed versatility will be to allow them the possibilty to deal damage that doesnt involve lasers or otherwise resticts them to mainly EM damage. theres not too many ways to do that: drones, missiles or other races turrets. added to that an amarrian pilot who whishes to use our most powerful t1 cruiser or one of its t2 variants will train up drones anyway. and even if you decide to go straigth to bs and ignore cruisers you will need to train up droneskills as they will be a vital part of a good geddon setup. as i said earlier drones are already one of our main weapons in regards to game reality. so a drone bs seems to be preferable over a missile-bs or even a projectile/hybrid bs which would make even less sense storywise. granted you could also give us an ewar bs but that would feel just as out of place as a projectile boat.
regarding the "omg stop whining .. the abaddon will be teh awesome" crying: i can see perfectly clear that the proposed ship with 5% resistance and 5% rof will be very strong and very deadly. it will also be very boring. as per devblog it can either tank better than the apoc -> aka replace the apoc or gank better than the geddon -> aka replace the geddon. so if it gets released this way theres really not much reason to fly an apoc or a geddon then. and even if people would still chose to fly the other 2 bs for some sentimental reason we would end up with 3 ships doing virtually the same while being incredibly easy to counter with a setup that works against all 3 of them at the same time.
my personal preference regaring an amarr drone-bs:
tier 1: abaddon: 10%drone damage/hitpoints/mining + maybe some tanking bonus or other non drone bonus
tier 2: apoc: 5% resistance + 5% armor hp (could be sth else but preferably not cap use here as using lasers and creating a dedicated tanker dont really mix very well anyway)
tier 3: geddon: 5% rof 10% reduce in capuse
the reason i would switch geddon and abaddon is purely based on the ship design. imho abaddon looks more like a drone carrier than the geddon.
tier 2 and 3 could be the other way around as well.
and if you must have the domi as a superior drone-bs just give it a 2nd drone related bonus.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.29 13:12:00 -
[29]
Originally by: LordSlay Them
I would rather have a tachyon sniper, and hop in my domi when i felt like using drones.
you may notice that the domi is in fact a gallentean ship not an amarrian one like the abaddon. also: leaving its internal values aside the domi can quiet easily be describes as hideous.
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Nira Li
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.29 14:09:00 -
[30]
I want the same bonuses it got atm and a 8/5/7 slot layout, thank you very much
You Will Cry My Name Funny Guys
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Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.07.29 14:17:00 -
[31]
Updated OP with ideas from the thread, keep em coming.
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Commander Thrawn
Fluffy rabbit killer's inc
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Posted - 2006.07.29 14:43:00 -
[32]
that's really what i was hopping for. and 6/6/7 seems fine to me, or 6/6/8 :) the turret ship will be fine i guess, not sure about the cap on it though
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.29 14:49:00 -
[33]
if the abaddon was to become a tier1 drone bs like the domi i would not give it more than 4 medslots. propably sth like 6-4-8 or 7-4-7 depending on what the none-drone related 2nd bonus would be obviously.
as a tier 3 drone boat i wouldnt go higher than 5 meds unless you really want to make it a combined drones + ewar bs. which would propably be a bit too much.
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Sniser
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.07.29 15:50:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Madcat Adams Edited by: Madcat Adams on 29/07/2006 14:51:05 If that cap isn't seriously adjusted, it's gonna be a very short party.
stop whining about cap, use cap booster + passive tank and have fun
also those stats are out dated, tuxford told us it in another thread
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Dred 'Morte
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.29 16:02:00 -
[35]
Originally by: webkert Abaddon will be usefull if it gets enough grid/cpu to be fitted properly. However there wont be much use for the apoc once tier 3 bs are out. The cap bonus is completly wasted considering you need a cap injector anyway to run a good tank, and its damage aint very good either. So I'd much rather have the apoc remade to a drone ship.
7 medium slots is too much on an armortanking ship. That would be way to powerfull, atleast with the current state of ecm.
And hopefully if the apoc is remade it will be usefull for solo pvp. Right now amarr doenst have any battleships that are decent for solo.
DIE
Signature made by Mr Floppykickners |
Sangxianc
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.29 16:08:00 -
[36]
Originally by: BirdBleed i agree, amarr allready have 2 turret/tank bships, we certainly dont want ANOTHER.
More importantly, who is the girl in your sig?
Degeneres animos timor arguit Fear reveals ignoble spirits |
God forbid
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.29 16:58:00 -
[37]
yes yes and yes. We need a gank or a tank bs, DRONE SHIP IT should be..
Quote: "He did not know, Who he was ******* with."
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Tranklukator's wife
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Posted - 2006.07.29 17:54:00 -
[38]
6/6/6 - 4 turret 4 missle
+10% drone damage and hitpoints +30% to tracking disruptor optimal. (to make it work at 200km fleet battles with maxxed skills) +5% to tracking disruptor effectiveness.
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DeadDuck
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.29 18:08:00 -
[39]
just keep it like it is or if you wanna change something .. 8-5-7
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White Ronin
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Posted - 2006.07.29 18:47:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Tranklukator's wife 6/6/6 - 4 turret 4 missle
+10% drone damage and hitpoints +30% to tracking disruptor optimal. (to make it work at 200km fleet battles with maxxed skills) +5% to tracking disruptor effectiveness.
Too many benefits for a T2 ship. Follow the lines of the Arbi as it is T1 and not a curse/pilgram which is t2. Plus, the +30% is outrageous, not to mention you include a effectiveness bonus on top of it.
Try this. +10% drone hit points and drone damage/BS level +5% Tracking Disrupter effectiveness/BS level
Slots 6/6/6 is ok but really you need to get a 7th mid slot to be comparable to others in bs quality. Remember this is NOT a typical Amarr design so have it have decent speed for a BS just not outstanding and above average midslots. Also keep its armor points the lowest of all the BS and the worst shield. This will keep it balanced so it must use its head to survive as they wont shield tank and have a very hard time armor tanking. I might even throw in a negative like : x3 cap usage for ECM if you felt it must be contained to its racial or to non 'broke' Ewar. But anyway. Anyway, just an idea.
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Luric Vizjier
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.30 00:53:00 -
[41]
Abaddon won't need a tank, just fill it with tachs, eccm, tracking mods, and 1600 plates and it is a deathmobile. -----------------------------------------------
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.30 01:59:00 -
[42]
6/8/6 slot layout
10% bonus to drone stuff per level 5% bonus to tracking disruptor effectiveness and optimal range per level
4 turret slots 2 missile slots
take an axe to it's CPU
problem solved Sig removed, inappropriate content - Cortes |
Pepperami
Art of War Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.30 02:11:00 -
[43]
I, like others, want my amarr bs choice to have variety.. Please give us a drone ship.
Or give the Abaddon the Geddon's bonus and make the geddon a dedicated drone boat.. Just please give us something other than lasers/lasers/lasers choice :(
[Art of War][- V -] |
Great Artista
Thunderbolts The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2006.07.30 04:56:00 -
[44]
Lasers are boring. Why on earth would we want improved geddon?
Drones, IMO, is the thing that amarr needs. -------------
½Artista - One name. One legend.+
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Rafein
Eye of God Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.07.30 06:43:00 -
[45]
6/8/6, 5 turrets. 5% bonus to drone damage per level (10% is for gallente) 5% tracking disrupter optimal range.
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Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.07.30 12:05:00 -
[46]
As a drone ship it will most likely have one less slot than the 20 that the tier 3 look to be getting. Also curious as to why the tracking disrupter bonus over the armour bonus? It's an intriguing idea, please elaborate why that would be better than the staying power of +5% resits.
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Perry
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 12:58:00 -
[47]
Easy, Apoc loses Cap Bonus and gains Resistsbonus.
Abaddon gets the Arbitrator Bonus (Drone/Trackingdisruptor), ccp gave it the Name of the Lord of Locusts and make it a boring turret ship i dont get it
Fitting should be derived from Arbi:
Arbi / Abaddon
High 4 / 6 (should stay 6, Arbi doenst uses Highs to do damage) Med 4 / 6 (at least 5, max 7) Low 4 / 7 (at least 6, max 7)
-> 19 Slots, one less then 20 because of drones
Turrets 2 / 4 Launcher 1 / 2
-> doubles Arbitrator stats
Lower overall HP then Geddon, less speed the Apoc (-5m/s), less dronebay then Domi (200m¦), less Cap/Recharge, less Fitting then Geddon, compareable to Domi (abit more cause of beams higher reqs).
Should be balanced.
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Ithildin
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:09:00 -
[48]
Everyone who is serious about Amarr getting a tier 3 drone battleship needs to pod themselves until they've got no skills left, then go play WoW - where devs don't give a flying **** about racial identity (they're releasing paladins for the Horde, for example and for those who care).
IFF (that's "if and only if") Amarr get a drone ship, then it will be Armageddon. And IFF that happens, then the Hyperion will be made a drone ship. And IFF that happens, the Dominix will be remade into something else. And IFF that happens, they'll also need a new model for the Supreme Parasites or whatever they are called.
You see, an Amarr drone ship is about as likely as a Gallentean missile ship with double damage bonus and 8 launchers (making it better than any missile ship the Caldari will ever have). Drones aren't Amarrian. There's plenty of more analogies I can make in order to illustrate how proposterous a non-Gallentean top-tier drone ship would be.
Originally by: Arbitrator description The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier.
If this doesn't say it all, then I don't know what does.
I'm not saying that drone ships should be restricted to Gallente only, I am saying that if there exist a non-Gallentean drone ship in a ship class, then the Gallentean version in the same class must be higher tier and therefore stronger (not necessarily in all ways, but in *most* ways). Pretty much how it is between Vexor and Arbitrator, even though an EWar bonus is very, very, potent with a drone ship. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |
Perry
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 13:13:00 -
[49]
Wts Ritalin 10isk
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 16:48:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ithildin Everyone who is serious about Amarr getting a tier 3 drone battleship needs to pod themselves until they've got no skills left, then go play WoW - where devs don't give a flying **** about racial identity (they're releasing paladins for the Horde, for example and for those who care).
not having your wow-experience i cant really comment on whatever blizzard wants to do with their game and i dont really see how thats supposed to be be important for the abaddon. let me instead suggest that you go ahead and read this thread before you go all crying around about how your gonna lose your precious dominix (hint: you are not).
regarding the racial identity: i agree it would be nice if amarr could just be using lasers only, field massive fleets that win by using technical and numerical superiority and enslave other players. however i dont think that would be easy to implement or create lots of interesting fights.
Originally by: Arbitrator description The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier.
i see you chose to quote only the part of the arbis description that is actually true. propably a good idea. while i agree that the arbi is unusual compared to our other ships it is also essential to our fleets and if you compare it with our other cruisers it also manages to come out on top quiet easily. so i'm wondering why exactly we should not get a battleship sized drone carrier when the cruiser sized one has proven to be quiet powerful and we already have 2 laser based battleships for all our turret needs.
also note that while the arbi is an exception thats precisely what amarrian ships need. a few alternatives to purely lasers based ships in order to be not completely predictable / counterable for pvp reason. other possibilites to get that result would be creating a dedicated ewar, missiles, projectiles or hybrid bs. and if you take a close look at those possibilites you may notice that in contrast to a droneboat we dont already have an ewar, missile, projectile or hybrid cruiser as a vital part of our fleets.
should you come up with a better way to give amarrians more versatility when it comes to bs-pvp go right ahead and post it here. maybe try to avoid just coming up with a better version of our already existing battleships though as we already got that solution from tux and i'm not convinced that it really comes through with the "new role" the tier3 bs were said to get earlier.
Originally by: Ithildin
I'm not saying that drone ships should be restricted to Gallente only, I am saying that if there exist a non-Gallentean drone ship in a ship class, then the Gallentean version in the same class must be higher tier and therefore stronger (not necessarily in all ways, but in *most* ways). Pretty much how it is between Vexor and Arbitrator, even though an EWar bonus is very, very, potent with a drone ship.
ah seems you managed to calm down a bit further down your post. i happen to agree with what you post there though i dont think the higher tier == better rule needs to be all that strict. for example an amarrian tier2 or 3 drone bs with just the default drone bonus and the suggested 200m3 dronebay doesnt seem like much of a problem if you go ahead and give the domi a 2nd dronebonus as well. just because it would be of a higher tier doesnt have to mean that its 2 or 3 times as powerful as the domi.
also: an amarian tier3 drone bs with the arbis bonuses and 7 or 8 midslots as suggested earlier in this thread is pretty clearly over the top as that would combine very good ewar, drones and tankablitily into one ship. on the arbi itself at least the ewar and tanking departments are not high at the top end of cruisers.
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White Ronin
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Posted - 2006.07.30 18:06:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ithildin
I'm not saying that drone ships should be restricted to Gallente only, I am saying that if there exist a non-Gallentean drone ship in a ship class, then the Gallentean version in the same class must be higher tier and therefore stronger (not necessarily in all ways, but in *most* ways). Pretty much how it is between Vexor and Arbitrator, even though an EWar bonus is very, very, potent with a drone ship.
No, you are saying that no other race should bother cause the Gal should have the best drone ships for any occasion. But thats not the way it is currently. And a load of poo also.
Currently the Gal droneship design is a union between hybrids and drones with a good tank. More of a fighter then anything else. Very 'Navy-ish' The Amarr designed a differant droneship. One that did not focus on turrets to help the drone damage but focused instead on E-War. Well, the Cat is OUta the Bag now. Cause the Arbi is a better ship im alot of peoples opinion. And to say that the Amarr would ignore the success that they have had with this ship or that they would not try to implement it for other ship classes as it fills 2 roles... is saying they are brain dead. Of course they are gunna carry a successful ship design as far as they can and the Arbi is a VERY successful ship design.
Listen, if you can convince the Devs to start acting like Gal actually have the corner on the 'uberDroneship' market then you my friend are a hero. Cause they dont. If ANYTHING, the GAL are blaster specialists cause they have more ships that can use this weapon effectively then drone based ships. Till then their is more logical reason for them to have them then not.
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Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.07.31 00:30:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Madcat Adams on 31/07/2006 00:31:43 Creating a bigger Arbi that has the exact same bonus would serve to replace the Arbi though. Why not make a different set of bonus so that there is a use for both drone boats in a fleet?
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Caesar Galactus
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 03:24:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Madcat Adams Edited by: Madcat Adams on 31/07/2006 00:31:43 Creating a bigger Arbi that has the exact same bonus would serve to replace the Arbi though. Why not make a different set of bonus so that there is a use for both drone boats in a fleet?
Does an Apoc replace a Maller which replaces a Punisher? Do the Geddon and Zealot replace the Omen? Does the Arbitrator replace the Crucifier? Does the Crusader replace the Executioner? All of our ships are just bigger versions of their little brethren, and all of our ships still have a place on the battlefield, as dictated by logistics, skill, and financial constraints. For example, I rat 0.0 just fine in an Arbitrator, which means that I probably wouldn't risk a hypothetical drone-boat Abaddon (which is 25x more expensive) for exactly the same task.
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.31 03:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Madcat Adams Edited by: Madcat Adams on 31/07/2006 00:31:43 Creating a bigger Arbi that has the exact same bonus would serve to replace the Arbi though. Why not make a different set of bonus so that there is a use for both drone boats in a fleet?
Drone optimal range over the damage mod would make it more unique. Sig removed, inappropriate content - Cortes |
Nyxus
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.07.31 04:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ithildin Everyone who is serious about Amarr getting a tier 3 drone battleship needs to pod themselves until they've got no skills left, then go play WoW - where devs don't give a flying **** about racial identity (they're releasing paladins for the Horde, for example and for those who care).
You see, an Amarr drone ship is about as likely as a Gallentean missile ship with double damage bonus and 8 launchers (making it better than any missile ship the Caldari will ever have). Drones aren't Amarrian. There's plenty of more analogies I can make in order to illustrate how proposterous a non-Gallentean top-tier drone ship would be.
Originally by: Arbitrator description The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier.
If this doesn't say it all, then I don't know what does.
I'm not saying that drone ships should be restricted to Gallente only, I am saying that if there exist a non-Gallentean drone ship in a ship class, then the Gallentean version in the same class must be higher tier and therefore stronger (not necessarily in all ways, but in *most* ways). Pretty much how it is between Vexor and Arbitrator, even though an EWar bonus is very, very, potent with a drone ship.
Ithildin I would agree with you on "preserve racial identity" except for 2 things.
- The Rokh with 8 turrets and is Caldari shows that gameplay>>>racial backstory.
- All other Tier 3 BS getting 8 turrets when according to backstory Amarr are the "turret specialists" shows that gameplay>>>>backstory.
While I agree that the Abaddon as a drone carrier shouldn't eclipse the Domi, it can easily be made an 8 midslot ship with drone bonuses and tracking disruptor bonuses with only enough dronebay to fit 5 heavies and 5 lights and be balanced. Just as the Arbi is balanced with the Vexxor. FFS all the other tier 3 bs are getting 6 mids AND filling in "holes" in thier respective fleets. If the Abaddon can't be a drone boat then make it 8/8 turrets/missiles.
For gameplay reasons Amarr need some variety to thier BS. We need a ship that actually fills the gaping "holes" in our fleets. For gameplay we need the Abaddon not to completely eclipse the Apoc and Geddon and render them pointless, or considerably less usefull than they are now.
Can you see that the Abaddon as currently sugggested does this exactly? It add *NOTHING* to the Amarr fleet, while rendering 2/3's of the Amarr BS pointless as it does everything they can do, and better when properly set up.
Gameplay>>>>backstory
Nyxus
Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
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Jahria Jaeger
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.31 07:08:00 -
[56]
If any race should get a drone ship its the minnies, with them being bum buddies with Gallente and all
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Rastaf
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Posted - 2006.07.31 08:18:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Nira Li I want the same bonuses it got atm and a 8/5/7 slot layout, thank you very much
Im with Nira here
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.07.31 08:25:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ithildin Everyone who is serious about Amarr getting a tier 3 drone battleship needs to pod themselves until they've got no skills left, then go play WoW - where devs don't give a flying **** about racial identity (they're releasing paladins for the Horde, for example and for those who care).
IFF (that's "if and only if") Amarr get a drone ship, then it will be Armageddon. And IFF that happens, then the Hyperion will be made a drone ship. And IFF that happens, the Dominix will be remade into something else. And IFF that happens, they'll also need a new model for the Supreme Parasites or whatever they are called.
You see, an Amarr drone ship is about as likely as a Gallentean missile ship with double damage bonus and 8 launchers (making it better than any missile ship the Caldari will ever have). Drones aren't Amarrian. There's plenty of more analogies I can make in order to illustrate how proposterous a non-Gallentean top-tier drone ship would be.
Originally by: Arbitrator description The Arbitrator is unusual for Amarr ships in that it's primarily a drone carrier.
If this doesn't say it all, then I don't know what does.
I'm not saying that drone ships should be restricted to Gallente only, I am saying that if there exist a non-Gallentean drone ship in a ship class, then the Gallentean version in the same class must be higher tier and therefore stronger (not necessarily in all ways, but in *most* ways). Pretty much how it is between Vexor and Arbitrator, even though an EWar bonus is very, very, potent with a drone ship.
Completely agree i mean do you guys want a missile boat to?I know lets give the minmatar a 8 slot mini raven with 2 bonus to missiles and 7 mid slots?Hell why dont we mage caldaris have a drone carrier also?
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Luric Vizjier
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.31 08:29:00 -
[59]
Making the Abaddon a droneship is an insult, there is no honor in it. The Amarr will only stand for direct confrontation and win by either outlasting or quickly striking down our enemy. There is no workaround to a true battle, any Amarrian pilot knows this.
~Captain Luric Vizjier -----------------------------------------------
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 09:34:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Nyxus
While I agree that the Abaddon as a drone carrier shouldn't eclipse the Domi, it can easily be made an 8 midslot ship with drone bonuses and tracking disruptor bonuses with only enough dronebay to fit 5 heavies and 5 lights and be balanced. Just as the Arbi is balanced with the Vexxor. FFS all the other tier 3 bs are getting 6 mids AND filling in "holes" in thier respective fleets. If the Abaddon can't be a drone boat then make it 8/8 turrets/missiles.
8 medslots would be way too much for an amarrian droneboat. with say 200m3 dronespace and the 10% damage/hitpoints bonus i wouldnt give it more than 6 meds for a tier 3 version... 4 or 5 meds for a lower tier one.
same goes for 8 launcher hardpoints. while that would also gives us some variety it would clearly be over the top. the ravens 6 launchers would have to be the max. number used. if you really want to create an amarrian missile boat i would rather go for a split setup like the typhoon.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 09:36:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Luric Vizjier Making the Abaddon a droneship is an insult, there is no honor in it. The Amarr will only stand for direct confrontation and win by either outlasting or quickly striking down our enemy. There is no workaround to a true battle, any Amarrian pilot knows this.
~Captain Luric Vizjier
so why exactly has the cva given up on using pure amarrian fleets then?
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Ithildin
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.31 09:51:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Nyxus Ithildin I would agree with you on "preserve racial identity" except for 2 things.
- The Rokh with 8 turrets and is Caldari shows that gameplay>>>racial backstory.
- All other Tier 3 BS getting 8 turrets when according to backstory Amarr are the "turret specialists" shows that gameplay>>>>backstory.
1. I was never one to count number of turrets and think anything special about it. The Rokh adheres to the Caldari philosophy and racial identity, if you allow for a developement from the backstory. This is, after all, shortly into the future as far as the backstory is concerned, otherwise Caldari wouldn't have battleships at all. Number of turrets relatively speaking has never been established, all that has been established is that Gallente compared to Caldari worked on a serious bombardment principle, and thus their (Gal) turret set would be stronger than Caldari turret sets. Pure numbers don't matter.
2. I have not delved deep into Amarr nor Minmatar backstories, but I have a nagging feeling that there is no such descriptors. What there is, undoubtedly, is a describing set of stories to confirm that Amarr focus much more on turrets compared to the Matari. Matari, after all, tend to have missile augmented systems.
Quote: While I agree that the Abaddon as a drone carrier shouldn't eclipse the Domi, it can easily be made an 8 midslot ship with drone bonuses and tracking disruptor bonuses with only enough dronebay to fit 5 heavies and 5 lights and be balanced. Just as the Arbi is balanced with the Vexxor. FFS all the other tier 3 bs are getting 6 mids AND filling in "holes" in thier respective fleets. If the Abaddon can't be a drone boat then make it 8/8 turrets/missiles.
<Conserve space>
Can you see that the Abaddon as currently sugggested does this exactly? It add *NOTHING* to the Amarr fleet, while rendering 2/3's of the Amarr BS pointless as it does everything they can do, and better when properly set up.
Gameplay>>>>backstory
Nyxus
The reason that the Vexor can be seen as being more balanced compared to the Arbitrator is that the Vexor is higher tier and can thus be allowed more power and fitting. In the case Abaddon versus Dominix, however, the Dominix is several tiers lower and will most likely cost less than half the minerals to construct compared to the Abaddon. It is only logical that the Abaddon will thus be superior in most aspects. That it can be made a drone boat is true, but if anything it must be made a dabbler unless some serious adjustments are made to the Dominix. I highly doubt the devs are ready to tamper with other designs just to fit in this one.
I do realise that the Abaddon does add very little to the Amarr fleet. That has always been a strong concern in my debating previously, before stats and concepts were released. I have a feeling, though, that some room can be made if the devs tamper with the Apocalypse as well, which is, perhaps, lacking slightly as far as PvP is concerned. I feel, though, that in order to add an Amarr drone ship, it needs be done on the lowest tier along with tampering of the Gallentean line of battleships (Hyperion being a drone ship instead and Dominix being changed to EWar ship - which incidentally fits in well with backstory since Gallente were superior in EWar compared to Caldari in the era the Dominix was made in), but it's just wishful thinking. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |
McTaggart
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.31 10:26:00 -
[63]
If we stuck with racial identity you'd have to have 5 punisher frigates, 4 maller cruisers and 3 apocabaddageddon battleships to choose from. Railroading one whole race into using one ship is bad for everyone.
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Heartbreak Harriet
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Posted - 2006.07.31 12:26:00 -
[64]
I'm not so sure saying the Vexor is better than the Arbitrator is a really compelling argument. Usually I agree with you, Ithildin, but I'm not so sure what you're saying makes a lot of sense, especially since cruiser tiers are really fuzzy when you get to the middle.
Try comparing the two and you'll find that the Vexor really isn't much different from the Arbitrator; it has more Powergrid but less CPU, the same amount of slots (the Arbitrator is 4/4/4, the Vexor is 5/3/4 with a couple more turrets but no launchers). Their drone capabilities are identical. Same drone bonus, same drone bay size. The only areas the Vexor is better than the Arbi in without trading something else are cargo size and hp, which are both slightly higher. However, I think that has more to do with the Arbi being an EW ship and Gallente drone ships having characteristically large cargo than anything else.
If an Amarr Drone BS is made higher tier than a Gallente one, I agree that it's a problem. Everyone would go for the Abaddon and the Dominix would get ignored. But what do you think would happen if Gallente's droneship was upgraded to tier 3, while Amarrians got a drone BS at tier 1? Either way, one of them would become the new old Typhoon, so to speak.
I don't like the idea of an Arbitrator-based Abaddon. In fact, I just flat out don't like everyone's pre-occupation with trying to upsize cruiser designs into BS hulls. However, it isn't difficult to understand how it could be made to work. Upgrade the Geddon and the Apoc to tier 2 and 3, and bring the Abaddon in at tier 1. Make it primarily an EW ship, with less damage and utility highs than the domi, but one more mid and a TD bonus. It can be worse than the Domi at using drones, so long as it makes up for it in some other area and is still better with drones than Minmatar or Caldari. Gallente would get to keep their drone superiority, and Amarrians would get a BS that does something other than shoot guns and/or get shot at by things that may or may not be guns.
Trade one thing to get another. That's balance. Giving Gallente a tier 3 drone BS because the Vexor has more hp than the Arbitrator isn't.
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White Ronin
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Posted - 2006.07.31 14:04:00 -
[65]
Ok, why does every dumbass insist that no drone bs can ever be built the beats the Domi? Even though it even says in the description that it is an old model design from the Gal-Cal wars... an "old workhors"? So technology has to stop in its tracks or someone MIGHT make a better drone boat. Use your ******* head people. The Domi is not the end all be all. It is an old Gal design from DECADES and DECADES ago. We build better ships nor or havent you noticed?
Why does every moron say that Gal are drone 'specialists' when currrently they only have 4, thats right 4, drone boats out of 20+ COMBAT boats. The Amarr have 3 and you dont call them drone specialists. WE ARE HYBRID SPECIALISTS! NOT DRONE SPECIALISTS! It may say drone specialist in the broucher but if you actually look at their ship you see they lied. We specialize in hybrid weapons. Till the devs do something more substantial to make the Gal actualy specialize in drones, like have more then a fraction of their ships drone ships, you are stuck with the reality of it. Hybrid specialist cause that is what all our ships do. Get over it.
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 14:10:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Heartbreak Harriet It can be worse than the Domi at using drones, so long as it makes up for it in some other area and is still better with drones than Minmatar or Caldari.
I suggested a drone bonus and a laser ROF bonus but a limited drone bay of either 50 - 75 m3 for a drone using version of the Abaddon.
125 m3 drone bay would field 5 heavy drones and coupled with a laser ROF would "probably" put our a bit too much firepower and would DEFINITELY make armageddon useless. But limiting the drone bay in size "might" make the Abaddon more of a niche role compared to the Armageddon (as a drone ship).
Either way I do not want a resist bonus on the Abaddon. I'd rather see a gimpy drone bonus or a tracking disruptor bonus. ---
Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales!
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Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.07.31 14:33:00 -
[67]
Where does it say in the Pax Amarra that we shouldn't use drones? What is with the fanatic devotion to lazers over anything else, when most people agree our lazers are a bit gimped by the whole cap thing? There are Amarr drone ships, some very good ones, why can't we have another to round our fleet out at battleship level? As it stands every good pilot Amarr pilot should be using drones to help cover the glaring lack of damadge choice in those uber lazers everyone keeps saying we have.
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Heiken Wimast
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 14:58:00 -
[68]
Tbh Abaddon will be wasted with resist/rof bonuses and 8 turrets. Better it should be biggest brother of arbi and a drone ship, with turret disruptors and nosses. Otherwise "Abaddon" will be useless.
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 15:32:00 -
[69]
Here we go!
Capacitor bonus to laser usage Tracking Disruptor bonus
There! A battleship that fills a role that is not currently filled in the Amarr BS fleet, without making the Apoc or Arma useless. ---
Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales!
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 15:42:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven
I suggested a drone bonus and a laser ROF bonus but a limited drone bay of either 50 - 75 m3 for a drone using version of the Abaddon.
125 m3 drone bay would field 5 heavy drones and coupled with a laser ROF would "probably" put our a bit too much firepower and would DEFINITELY make armageddon useless. But limiting the drone bay in size "might" make the Abaddon more of a niche role compared to the Armageddon (as a drone ship).
Either way I do not want a resist bonus on the Abaddon. I'd rather see a gimpy drone bonus or a tracking disruptor bonus.
wasting 1 of 2 bonuses on a way too small dronebay will surely not create a unique role for the abaddon. also..if your thinking about the default droneboat bonus of 10% damge/hitpoints: a 75m3 dronebay would hold 3 heavy drones with up to 50% bonus on them those would have the power of 4.5 heavies without the bonus...the geddon has 5 heavies.
if you want to have a difference over the geddon as it is now how about removing the laser rof bonus from one of them and replacing it with a decent sized dronebay (200m3 or so) and a drone bonus instead. as you said already giving a bs 7-8 turrets with a rof bonus and a usefull dronebonus as well will be over the top. so in order to change one of those 2 ships into a droneboat it would have to lose a number of turrets or the rof bonus.
also: theres really no need to worry about _making_ it better than the geddon because with the devblog-proposed bonuses and slotlayout it will already be better than the geddon at pretty much everything pvp-related.
if the abaddon is to stay the boring turretboat as which it got announced then the 5% rof and 5% resists are already pretty much perfect for that role.
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Hitomi Ayame
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 15:51:00 -
[71]
All this rot about an 8 midslot Amarr BS makes my head hurt. Talk about fudging racial identity...
Anyway, I fully support making the Abbadon a drone battleship. The Amarr lineup desperately needs some variety, and EVE in general needs another drone ship.
However, it's still an Amarr drone ship. It should not, under any circumstances, have more midslots than lowslots. Also, it needs to be usable without making the Dominix obselete.
I'd like to see something like 7 high slots 3-4 mid slots 7-8 low slots
10% drone hp, damage, mining yield, and repair amount per level 10% reduction in laser cap use per level
200-250m3 drone bay
The trick to keeping such a ship balanced is in the grid/cpu. Give it enough grid/cpu to fit most large lasers and a LARII, but not enough to fill up with Heavy Nos or Tachs without a few fitting mods.
There you have a ship that still flies like a something the Amarr would build, in that it has heavy armor and a sizable laser broadside, but also adds some variety to the otherwise dull 'tank or gank' selection. - - -
The Royal Knights of Khanid are now recruiting!
Step up and serve God and Khanid today!
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Commander Thrawn
Fluffy rabbit killer's inc
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Posted - 2006.07.31 16:25:00 -
[72]
6/6/7 275 drones capacity
4 turret hardpoint 5% bonus to Tracking Disruptor effectiveness per skill level 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield per skill level.
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Victavious Asmandi
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.31 16:40:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Victavious Asmandi on 31/07/2006 16:40:29 You know, i am curious. Where is this Amarrian Loyalty i keep hearing about?
You know what I would have thought the propper Amarr responce would have been?
"You'll take what the emporers blessed fleet designers give you and you will like it!"
Sounds more Amarrian to me, lol.
There once was an old Kangaroo, Who's Tail had been painted bright blue. "Now why", said his friend, "Did they paint just one end? When his face realy needed it too". |
Icomeinpeace
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 16:49:00 -
[74]
Only problem I have is that there will be 8 turrets and only 1 bonus going towards them.Make it a rof & dmg bonus and you can make me one happpy amarrian. |
Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 17:56:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Hitomi Ayame
I'd like to see something like 7 high slots 3-4 mid slots 7-8 low slots
10% drone hp, damage, mining yield, and repair amount per level 10% reduction in laser cap use per level
200-250m3 drone bay
for a tier 3 i would suggest sth like this: 6-5-8 10% drone dmg/hitpoints 5% resists, cap recharge or some other tanking related bonus (or other non-laser bonus)
4 turrets + 1 launcher or maybe even 3 turrets + 2 launchers
reason why i wouldnt give it a laser bonus or more highslots/turret hardpoints is to make sure the drones stay its main weapon and it doenst get too much gankpower with 6 lasers, 3 heatsinks and the bonus-improved drones (havent really checked that as of yet but it seems like it could be a bit much). as lasers require loads of powergrid adding more highslots/turret hardpoints would also require giving it a lot more grid to make it able to fit them.
also the domi has a hybrid dmg bonus as its 2nd bonus .. so making an amarrian drone-bs more of a tanker would provide some additional differences there.
for a tier 1 version just remove 1 medslot: 6-4-8, same bonuses
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Crimson Matter
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Posted - 2006.07.31 18:08:00 -
[76]
Like everyone else is saying... the Abaddon is basically the same old stuff, we really would like something "new" and "fresh" in the Amarr line of ships. I know there are some RP points that need to stay consistent, but even Tuxford said in his dev blog on the tier 3 BS's that the new BS's shouldn't pwn the other battleships, instead they should excel at something different from what the existing battleships already do. Please give us something different. I would like a drone ship, but I don't really care, so long as its not the same old stuff we already have in the existing battleships.
Thank god we're still at a point where these designs are still in development... and I really hope we can persuade you devs to change said design. /signed
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Rockpounder
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Posted - 2006.07.31 18:47:00 -
[77]
There will be no drone boat, the devs are not going to remodel the abaddon just beacuse 15 ppl on some forum whine about it.
The domi is getting nerfed so it wont be as good soon (EW NOS) what are you ppl going to whine for then? A missle BS maybe?
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BillyBong2
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.31 19:10:00 -
[78]
^^ There are more then 15 people that wanted to see a Drone ship for the Amarr. People are whining becuase if we use what we are supposed for our ships, our damage can be tanked quite nicely. Amarrian do not have the varity to change up our damage like Caldari or Minmater.
Having drones would allow us a bit more flexibility. If an enemy knows they are going to be facing a fleet of Amarrians, they for the most part know what to tank against. Most of us, not all but most, did not train all Amarrian to have to train up projecticles to place on our ships to get a difference damage type.
I would like to see one Bonus be +35m3 drone space OR +10% damage/hit points/ blah blah for a drone ship.
The +35m3 would be at Amarr BS 5 175m3, with a base of 75m3, we would end up with 250m3.
Anyway, my thoughts after thinking about it for a while. _________________________
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Bellatrix VanFeldt
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Posted - 2006.08.01 02:20:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Bellatrix VanFeldt on 01/08/2006 02:22:18 Amarr drone tank idea. I'd suggest a refit of the geddon so the model wouldn't have to change.
Slots: 6/4/8 - 6 turrets - Needs to have 18 slots like domi, also have a strong tank. 6/5/8 for a higher-tier ship Drone bay 250m^3 (not as good as the domi, but enough to carry some spares) Standard 10%/level drone bonus +5%/level drone armor resistances No ship bonuses Fastish speed Not too much grid (for Amarr) Pretty good cpu
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Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.08.01 04:50:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Victavious Asmandi Edited by: Victavious Asmandi on 31/07/2006 16:40:29 You know, i am curious. Where is this Amarrian Loyalty i keep hearing about?
You know what I would have thought the propper Amarr responce would have been?
"You'll take what the emporers blessed fleet designers give you and you will like it!"
Sounds more Amarrian to me, lol.
Must be nice being one of the golden Caldari. Didn't the early initial stats released on test server show only 7 turret hard points on the new Caldari uber boat? Be seeing you on the Caldari whine thread after the tier 3's hit TQ. Now leave us to fix out messed up stuff, less when faction warfare hits you end up fighting the combined Gallente/Miminitar fleets alone as all our stuff is too gimped to work and the Amarr stay home to work on explosive crystals.
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Duncan Storne
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Posted - 2006.08.01 07:08:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven
As it stands a ganking ship/tanking ship are already in the Amarr fleet...no need for a masquerading ganking/tanking ship. The Amarr would be mopping the floor with their faces if they fought any other racial fleet as it stands. I'm surprised the caldari would even want to ally with technologically inferior people.
"In chess the pawns go first..."
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Heiken Wimast
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 10:56:00 -
[82]
Drone / EW / NOS just like little brothers curse/pilgrim. DOH !
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Crellion
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Posted - 2006.08.01 16:43:00 -
[83]
CCP should have made tier 3s about its race getting the missing ships. Caldari missing railboat. Gallente missing blasterboat (and change the gun bonus to damp bonus on Domi). So far so good.
Now minnie and ammar: What were they missing? Minnie were missing a missle boat seeing as they use a lot of missles (as a secondary system) and that was fixed with giving the typhoon (the tier 1) a missle bonus and making it a much nicer ship than it was.
So ammar? Where they missing a drone ship that is consistent with their tech 1 frigs and cruisers as the second race weapon? Bullcrap. 1 cruiser that nobody ever used and was "sort of" a drone boat doesnt make an entire races secondary weapon. (it not like a prigression through classes like Caldari rails -Merlin Harpy Raptor Moa Eagle Ferox Old Scorpion etc- or the Gallente drones - Velator Incursus Imicus Taranis Ishtar Vecor Ishkkur Domi old Rax etc)
In fact more ammar designs were missle ships than drone ships.
So what should be the ammar "missing link". Easy: EW boat like the Scorp and the Domi with damp bonus (as it should be made) and a tier 1 not a tier 3. However tracking dirupt is a crappy EW compared to pre-nerf (as it stands) ECM. Hmmm what should the solution be?
Look at Curse and the other rekon thingy.
A tier 1 BS with low grid and good cpu. Balanced mids and lows. Few highs. Drones (room for 10 Heavies but with no bonus) and with a track dirupt bonus and a Nos bonus (10% range or 5% amount). Then take care of the Geddon (+1 mid and a bit of cpu) and Apoc (+1 mid or +1 low) as they are now tier 2 and 3 respectively.
That would have been perfect. It didnt happen. Why?
Because the ammar peeps saw the other races getting big us ships and so whined too much on these forums against the possibility if an EW ship or asked for a Drone ship (as the OP does here) that's tier 3 and an automatic "I win" button. What did they get in return? A nice ship but now they have more or less 3 BSs that could be rly 1 BS with 3 different popular fittings.
Moral: Be careful what you wish for...
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Etherios
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 16:56:00 -
[84]
So ppl still want a drone ship... what can i say ...
Some of u are so narrow minded and so ... anything CCP will give us u will still whine about it... just to whine.
The new ships are very very well placed. After the HS nerfing (well some of the guys here might remmeber why that was nerfed ... omg Arma Pwns nerf nerf nerfffff) the Amarr was missing a good damage ship.
Amarr philosophy is damage and Tank wether ppl likes it or not. So ABaddon was needed to give amarr the pure damage they wanted.
Now u can all continue to whine about drone ships but i hope CCP wont give us one EVER. U lot can always go gallente ....
True sight isn't given to all that look for it.
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Rockpounder
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:00:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Etherios U lot can always go gallente ....
No, they are amaar roleplayers I think so thats why they whine and whine here
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Lisento Slaven
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:05:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Etherios So ppl still want a drone ship... what can i say ...
Some of u are so narrow minded and so ... anything CCP will give us u will still whine about it... just to whine.
The new ships are very very well placed. After the HS nerfing (well some of the guys here might remmeber why that was nerfed ... omg Arma Pwns nerf nerf nerfffff) the Amarr was missing a good damage ship.
Amarr philosophy is damage and Tank wether ppl likes it or not. So ABaddon was needed to give amarr the pure damage they wanted.
Now u can all continue to whine about drone ships but i hope CCP wont give us one EVER. U lot can always go gallente ....
I guess we'll just have to see then if the stats on the Abaddon actually do replace the armageddon and the apocalypse...because if you actually read what most people are arguing about - the new BS is not supposed to REPLACE any BS currently in the game. It's supposed to give a "new role" to the fleet lineup.
The bonuses don't suggest a new role for the amarr tier 3 BS that's all I know. ---
Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE.
Put in space whales!
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Sniser
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:18:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven
Originally by: Etherios So ppl still want a drone ship... what can i say ...
Some of u are so narrow minded and so ... anything CCP will give us u will still whine about it... just to whine.
The new ships are very very well placed. After the HS nerfing (well some of the guys here might remmeber why that was nerfed ... omg Arma Pwns nerf nerf nerfffff) the Amarr was missing a good damage ship.
Amarr philosophy is damage and Tank wether ppl likes it or not. So ABaddon was needed to give amarr the pure damage they wanted.
Now u can all continue to whine about drone ships but i hope CCP wont give us one EVER. U lot can always go gallente ....
I guess we'll just have to see then if the stats on the Abaddon actually do replace the armageddon and the apocalypse...because if you actually read what most people are arguing about - the new BS is not supposed to REPLACE any BS currently in the game. It's supposed to give a "new role" to the fleet lineup.
The bonuses don't suggest a new role for the amarr tier 3 BS that's all I know.
doesnt exist any possible new role in fleet using drones since drones sux for fleets
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Etherios
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:21:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven
I guess we'll just have to see then if the stats on the Abaddon actually do replace the armageddon and the apocalypse...because if you actually read what most people are arguing about - the new BS is not supposed to REPLACE any BS currently in the game. It's supposed to give a "new role" to the fleet lineup.
The bonuses don't suggest a new role for the amarr tier 3 BS that's all I know.
Yes i know but i dont think it will replace arma or apoc because Arma is a cheap bs for close range(if u can have that with amarr) and apoc is for tanking/npcing. Now they give us the best fleet ship and the best 30k+ heavy hitting bs (besides the missile ships ofc ...)
That arma can be a fleet ship or that Apoc can be one doesnt mean that its role is that. Apoc can do all but mediocre as arma. Abaddon can gank big time and tank a bit.
I still think Arma is lot better up close and the Apoc is lot better tanker. So u have 3 ships with similar possibilities yes but they are all proficient in diferent areas.
U need to remmeber Amarr are hard to change and love power (laser/tank).
The only place that will replace all amarr ships is in fleets. Now there is no need for an Amarr to fly anything else than Abaddon in fleets.
Abaddon Fleets. Arma Close range. Apoc Npcer/noser. (its bad because i love this ship but it was never good at PvP)
True sight isn't given to all that look for it.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:34:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Crellion
1 cruiser that nobody ever used and was "sort of" a drone boat doesnt make an entire races secondary weapon.
do you even know what the arbitrator is? "sort of a drone boat? its jsut as much "sort of" a droneboat as the vexor or domi. the arbi is easily our most powerful/useful t1 crusier and its t2 varients rank high with the t2 cruisers. when you say "nobody ever uses" it i assume you mean pilots who dont use amarrian ships for pvp or pilots who have for some strange reason decided to use cruiser which are less suited for that.
also: as far as secondary weapons go there arent that many to chose from and i would think that as far as amarrian ships go drones qualify for that position a lot mroe than missiles.
Originally by: Crellion
In fact more ammar designs were missle ships than drone ships.
1. amarr
2. hmm that sounds somewhat new to me. aside from the t1 missile frig and the stealthbomber (which all races get) we dont have any dedicated missile ships out there. most of those who do indeed have 1 or even 2 launcher hardpoints also sport a dronebay so that doesnt make missiles our prefered secondary weapons.
on the other hand we do have a dedicated drone cruiser and two tech2 variants of it.
Originally by: Crellion
tier1 ewar boat proposal
an ewar bs would be just as well suited to solve our versatility/predictability issues as a droneboat. as would a missile boat or a split setup like the typhoon. you wont hear me complaining about such a ship.
i simply prefer a droneboat (also as a tier 1 version btw.) because i happen to fly amarrian ships and unlike you managed to pick up on what we are using already. and a droneboat would fit a lot better with our current fleets than a missileship or ewarboat (mainly due to the traditional lack of medslots...also lots of med and lots of lows doenst seem to be very good idea for balance reasons)
Originally by: Crellion
That would have been perfect. It didnt happen. Why?
Because the ammar peeps saw the other races getting big us ships and so whined too much on these forums against the possibility if an EW ship or asked for a Drone ship (as the OP does here) that's tier 3 and an automatic "I win" button. What did they get in return? A nice ship but now they have more or less 3 BSs that could be rly 1 BS with 3 different popular fittings.
Moral: Be careful what you wish for...
hmm another thing i dont seem to recall...amarrian pilots were whining at the possibility of an ewar boat? when was that even suggested in any major way?
i do remember people asking for automatic "i win" buttons though. most of those are the ones who want the abaddon to get 2 damage bonuses.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:51:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Etherios
Yes i know but i dont think it will replace arma or apoc because Arma is a cheap bs for close range(if u can have that with amarr) and apoc is for tanking/npcing. Now they give us the best fleet ship and the best 30k+ heavy hitting bs (besides the missile ships ofc ...)
as was said by tux in the devblog its setups are to include being able to deal more damage than the geddon or tank better than the apoc. that right there describes how it will easily replace both of those ships. if it is able to deal longrange damage it will be just as able to fit pulses and deal damage in what you percieve to be the geddons area of effectiveness.
Originally by: Etherios
That arma can be a fleet ship or that Apoc can be one doesnt mean that its role is that. Apoc can do all but mediocre as arma. Abaddon can gank big time and tank a bit.
yeah like it was said earlier it will be better than both of these ships.
Originally by: Etherios
I still think Arma is lot better up close and the Apoc is lot better tanker. So u have 3 ships with similar possibilities yes but they are all proficient in diferent areas.
the devblog-abaddon will have 1 more lowslot and up to 25% better resists than an apoc. how exactly is an apoc going to be a better tank?
regarding the closerange geddon: it could in theory be slightly better for closerange-damage if it had a significantly larger dronebay than the abaddon. however the abaddon should still be able to fit megapulses much more easily and still have room for a better tank. in order to be able to fill the role of superior beam laser ship it would require more powergrid than a geddon. so if you fit both for shortrange the abaddon will likely come out on top in regards to leftover grid for tankage.
Originally by: Etherios
Now there is no need for an Amarr to fly anything else than Abaddon in fleets.
and thats not really how it should be imo.
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Lock out
Bald Industrial Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:52:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Crellion So ammar? Where they missing a drone ship that is consistent with their tech 1 frigs and cruisers as the second race weapon? Bullcrap. 1 cruiser that nobody ever used and was "sort of" a drone boat doesnt make an entire races secondary weapon.
The Arbi is not just some "cruiser that nobody ever used," it's probably the most useful of our t1 cruisers IMO.
That said, if the Abaddon was turned into a droneboat, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for it to do as much drone damage as the Dom (IMO). However, maybe it'd be possible to tweak the 10% damage/hp per level bonus into something more Amarr/tanking oriented, maybe 5% damage/20% hp per level instead?
Combine a bonus like that with a cap use bonus for lasers, a 200-250m3 dronebay, and maybe a 6/5/7 layout (6 turrets), and to me it sounds like it'd be a fun ship to fly, without making the Dom or either of our 2 current battleships useless. |
Etherios
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 18:08:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne
as was said by tux in the devblog its setups are to include being able to deal more damage than the geddon or tank better than the apoc. that right there describes how it will easily replace both of those ships. if it is able to deal longrange damage it will be just as able to fit pulses and deal damage in what you percieve to be the geddons area of effectiveness.
yeah like it was said earlier it will be better than both of these ships.
the devblog-abaddon will have 1 more lowslot and up to 25% better resists than an apoc. how exactly is an apoc going to be a better tank?
regarding the closerange geddon: it could in theory be slightly better for closerange-damage if it had a significantly larger dronebay than the abaddon. however the abaddon should still be able to fit megapulses much more easily and still have room for a better tank. in order to be able to fill the role of superior beam laser ship it would require more powergrid than a geddon. so if you fit both for shortrange the abaddon will likely come out on top in regards to leftover grid for tankage.
and thats not really how it should be imo.
Ok Close range Arma is smaller (like 15 mil smaller) so more agil and with the cap+ bonus it has can keep the pulse + tank going easier. Also remeber the Arma is the cheapest bs in Amarr. So i still think Arma > Abaddon close range.
Ok Tank. Apoc has the cap bonus so it can run 2 Lreps without problem and fire guns where abaddon cant do that for long period of times. So the Apoc can out tank a Abaddon in the long run.
Now about the dev blog. we will see...
Well the extra grid only helps for putting tachs which is why this ships is been made for tachs pwning. The cap problem is there and its there to keep it from being tooo uber.
Last just remmeber after it gets ingame. Apocs and Armas will still be used my guess Apoc for npc and Arma for small gangs. The Abaddon is the big fleet hitter thats it.
I still belive its a very good ship that i will be flying ALOT
True sight isn't given to all that look for it.
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Xacal
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Posted - 2006.08.01 18:25:00 -
[93]
I totally agree the Abbadon should be a drone ship. It looks like a drone ship, the Ammar have a cruiser drone ship, and right now it seems to do the same things a Armagedon or an Apoc can do, so it's kinda pointless. Problem is, to make it a drone ship, it would need to be tier 1, beause Ammars can't have a tier 3 drone ship while gallentes have only a tier1... The arbitrator makes it pretty obvious. But we're talking about tier3 ships, and boosting existing ships and changing it's calss is not acceptable, so we're screwed with that...
If anything, the Hyperion should be a tier1, dampener BS. The Megathron shoul be a tier 3 for blaster/rail fittings, and the Dominix should be a tier 2, to follow proper Gallente priorities. Not gonna happen.
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Udyr Vulpayne
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.01 18:29:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Etherios
Ok Close range Arma is smaller (like 15 mil smaller) so more agil and with the cap+ bonus it has can keep the pulse + tank going easier. Also remeber the Arma is the cheapest bs in Amarr. So i still think Arma > Abaddon close range.
Ok Tank. Apoc has the cap bonus so it can run 2 Lreps without problem and fire guns where abaddon cant do that for long period of times. So the Apoc can out tank a Abaddon in the long run.
price wont be that much higher once the bpo has seen some research and you take insurance into account.
i dont think a bit of agility will make much of a difference once you're at the bs level. at least for amarrian battleships with a rof bonus it seems unlikely that they will see a lot of uses involving an mwd and moving around at great speed.
regarding the cap advantage...for pvp reeason you're propably better off just using a capinjector instead of trying to create a setup where you can run a dual repper tank forever on an apoc or abaddon (which would need a lot more slots for rechargers/cap relays). capboosters are also a reason why the current apoc bonus doesnt really help it much for pvp. as other ships can keep their cap alive jsut as well with boosters. sure those will run out eventually but thats not likely gonna happen fast enough.
most fights will be over too fast in order to take advantage of such longterm bonuses.
Originally by: Etherios
i still belive its a very good ship that i will be flying ALOT
i'm not trying to dispute that. it will be very good but also very boring when compared to what we have already.
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Magonushi
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Posted - 2006.08.02 04:12:00 -
[95]
signed
as an amarr I've tried every cruiser and by far the Arbi out-performs them all in most situations.
I would guess a BS version could function similarly especially if it retained the strong EW abilities of the Arbi with a bit more focus on enhanced armor.
For King and Kingdom, God favor Khanid. |
MrWatson
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Posted - 2006.08.02 07:42:00 -
[96]
Edited by: MrWatson on 02/08/2006 07:42:24 /sighned
Amarr need a good variable dmg type weapon, and drones fit the bill. You can't say Amarr don't already use them to a degree as most our ships have a decent drone bay, and we already have the Arbitrator line. Make the Abaddon our battleship sized Arby
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Victavious Asmandi
Caldari North Central Positronics Ltd.
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:10:00 -
[97]
I have been thinking about this, and I actualy kinda agree with the theory that there Should NOT be a BS drone ship. IF there was a BS drone ship, it would be totaly unfair that "I", as a Caldari, wouldn't be able to fly it without training in the whole Amarr tech tree. See my reasoning?
Although, on a serious note, no one else has a Drone spec BS is there? Only the random crusiers and the carriers. The drone spec BS would have a substantial increase in power over a drone spec'ed cruser, and thus the most powerful drone ship short of a carrier anywhere.
And if there is another BS that I am unaware of....please ignore this entire post and imagine it as nothing more than a picture of fluffy pink bunnies eating cake. :)
There once was an old Kangaroo, Who's Tail had been painted bright blue. "Now why", said his friend, "Did they paint just one end? When his face realy needed it too". |
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.08.02 18:12:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Madcat Adams on 02/08/2006 18:14:47 The Gallente have one, though it's really out of date, and there is a opening for the Amarr to step in and make a better one.
Better to train Amarr than Gallente for your drone BB. Flying Amarr ships makes you feel pretty.
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Victavious Asmandi
Caldari North Central Positronics Ltd.
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Posted - 2006.08.03 14:57:00 -
[99]
Nah, if i was was to train Amarr ship skills that this point, it would be because I wanted to fly a nightmare. Now thats an interesting ship.
There once was an old Kangaroo, Who's Tail had been painted bright blue. "Now why", said his friend, "Did they paint just one end? When his face realy needed it too". |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.03 15:34:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Etherios Ok Tank. Apoc has the cap bonus so it can run 2 Lreps without problem and fire guns where abaddon cant do that for long period of times. So the Apoc can out tank a Abaddon in the long run.
Nope. The 25% resistance bonus means that the Apoc has to repair 33% more damage than the Aba.
33% more damage + 25% better caprecharge (and this only if both ships have the same pre-skill cparecharge) -> the Apoc will still be a weaker tanker, shortterm or longterm.
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The Economist
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Posted - 2006.08.03 15:39:00 -
[101]
I suspect this has been said before but....
With regards to the abaddon being made into a drone boat...
Please god no!
For the love of god no!
Just no.
(please)
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Calderio
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.03 16:07:00 -
[102]
it just doesnt look like a amarr drone ship. besides i like the idea that the guy came up with to make it like a amarr type ferox were it can tank awsome using missles or gank awsome with lasers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RIP Kevin Wessel, Age 20, Departed April 19 2005, Baghdad |
Madcat Adams
Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.08.03 17:19:00 -
[103]
Linkage
It's a bit different from the Arbi, however this does look to me a lot like a drone boat. With the large area in the front under the "nose" being the acess to the drone bays. Does anyone have a link to the ingame image of the Abaddon?
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age
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Posted - 2006.08.03 17:26:00 -
[104]
It also has 8 (quite visible) weapon mounts, though.
But in either case, arguing for what it be from it's *look* is just silly. You might as well say "abaddon" has 3 letters from "drone" in it, so it should be a droneboat.
Not saying that I am hapyp with the current version of it..that one is plain out dumb. Devs want to make combat longer and we get a ship whichs very focus is to make combat as short as possible, devs stated tier 3 should not replace the tier 2 and we get a ship which does exactly this for BOTH older BSs.
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