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James 315
Tactical Enterprise Group LTD
The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:02:00 -
[1]
It's a shame that all of the drama has been overshadowing what promises to be a very interesting fight, one which many of us have been looking forward to seeing. We've heard both sides of the drama enough, I think. In this post I would like to discuss how an alliance is actually destroyed in Eve, and whether/how BoB can really destroy GoonSwarm.
Some say that alliances are destroyed when one side makes people from the other side quit the game, or by doing enough economic damage to bankrupt them. I disagree. I think alliances are destroyed when corps take advantage of the fact that they can easily switch to another alliance. When one alliance dominates the battles, destroys enough POS's, and camps enough to convince the other side's corps that they are a member of a "losing" alliance, and that the game would be more fun if they switched to an alliance that can defend itself...the corps will leave and the alliance dissolves.
In my theory, an alliance won't die even if a lot of damage is done to it, so long as the battles are not one-sided enough to convince corps they're better off switching alliances altogether.
Killing a corp would be similar, convincing members to switch corps, but since corps can simply take refuge in the big alliances, destroying a corp can be nearly impossible.
This brings us to BoB versus GS. GoonSwarm is different from other alliances, because it is basically just one huge corp. Yes, there are non-Goon corps in GS, but their departure would be irrelevant. The traditional alliance dynamic doesn't apply, so destroying GS would be like trying to destroy a corp.
But supposing GS got annihilated on the battlefield, would it take refuge in a larger alliance? I think this is doubtful (although the power dynamics of GoonFleet joining ASCN would be very interesting).
GS is also distinct from a corp. As I said, to destroy a corp you must convince its members they would have more fun in a different corp. But are Goons from SomethingAwful really going to think they would have more fun elsewhere? They live inside of their own little world, and for many of the Goons, the only reason they came to Eve is to play with the other Goons. Under the normal rules for destroying a corp or alliance, then, it would be extremely difficult to dismantle GoonSwarm.
One possibility may be a split in GS. It is a large alliance and has a variety of different kinds of people, even if the image of hyperactive, manic bees predominates. Is it possible that a series of humiliating GS defeats would induce members of GS to split, following someone other than Remedial? We know there are a lot of Goons who dislike Remedial, but for the most part it seems Goons don't care who leads them so long as they get to fight alongside their Goon bretheren.
Unlike an "alliance" in real life, an alliance in Eve cannot be physically forced to dismantle; you must persuade the member corps to do it. Thus wars are largely psychological, which is why many alliances find it useful to use forum propaganda. I find it difficult to believe GS could be persuaded to split apart, although if a real alternative to Remedial shows up and gathers support, this is possible.
Otherwise, I think BoB can drive GS back into empire and claim victory. GS could move on to another part of the galaxy, farther from BoB's reach, and I doubt the vendetta would go as far as BoB hunting GS everywhere, making an overstretch of their resources and putting its territories at risk to other alliances. That's my prediction, at least. |
Whiskey Juvenile
GoonWaffe
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:07:00 -
[2]
I think one of us made a post along these lines like four months ago when we first starting having the "omg goonfleet" threads. I guess our secret is out.
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Mi Lai
Sanguine Legion
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:08:00 -
[3]
The only way to destroy a corp or Alliance is if you break it's morale. Wether or not one side could do this to the other remains to be seen. If it does, I very much doubt it would happen on the battlefield though.
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Azrael Bierce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:09:00 -
[4]
I just hope all the various entities that claim to hate BoB and all it stands for take this war as an opportunity to attack the BoB regions. I doubt a better opportunity will come up.
Could be interesting, bloody, times in the W/NW.
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Ismern
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:10:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ismern on 28/07/2006 16:11:00
This is going to start into another flame war. 
Neither side will "destroy" the other.
The worst I forsee is things going poorly and GS losing XZH. However, considering the fact that all of this happened on a whim and without any preparation, the mere fact that our alliance composed mostly of people under 6 months old stayed this long makes this entire campaign a victory in mind.
Should we lose XZH, you can be rest assured we'll be back.
EDIT: I agree with Hast up there. No more GoonSwarm vs. BoB threads.
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"It's not that I'm lazy . . . It's that I just don't care." |
Hast
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:10:00 -
[6]
please just stop with the goon vs BoB threads, the matter is to volatile...
currently hibernating |
Shamis Orzoz
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:11:00 -
[7]
All Goonswarm has to do is fall back to S-U. If bob tries to push them out of there they will lose billions and billions of isk while being repeatedly swarmed with t1 frigs and cruisers.
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Pergly
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:11:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Hast
please just stop with the goon vs BoB threads, the matter is to volatile...
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EvilNate
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:12:00 -
[9]
Break morale and corps start dropping out, when enough corps drop out, they can't defend as well and you can start to watch your friends dissapear too. Eventually the alliance disbands.
Look what happened to Sparta.
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Azairen
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:12:00 -
[10]
Goodbye.
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Cvuos
GoonWaffe
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: James 315
Some say that alliances are destroyed when one side makes people from the other side quit the game, or by doing enough economic damage to bankrupt them. I disagree. I think alliances are destroyed when corps take advantage of the fact that they can easily switch to another alliance. When one alliance dominates the battles, destroys enough POS's, and camps enough to convince the other side's corps that they are a member of a "losing" alliance, and that the game would be more fun if they switched to an alliance that can defend itself...the corps will leave and the alliance dissolves.
I agree with this as a general description of "destroying an alliance", i.e. that they disband and scatter.
But since victories need to be announced on forums, male internet egos tend to blur this simple occurence. (this applies to merc/empire/pirate wars as well) The victor will shout that the enemy was vanquished, villages torched and soil strewn with salt. The loser will remark "gg guys, we had fun, little smack, got bored now, moving on to other things" and the truth will be somewhere in between.
You can't really destroy anyone in Eve but you can make them give up.
Originally by: Dianabolic
If you guys really think you can keep eve seperate from rl with all the politics and oog coordination that goes on then you really are deluded.
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The Mittani
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:17:00 -
[12]
This is an eloquent, accurate theory, and I agree with your points. Most of what is done to wreck an alliance occurs at the psychological level, and many of the normal 'rules' for doing so don't apply to the Swarm.
That said, we've all had enough BoB vs Swarm threads. Let's move on.
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Calenth
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:17:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Calenth on 28/07/2006 16:25:35
Even in an absolute worst-case scenario, where BoB somehow managed so many repeated crushing victories that every goonfleet member quit the game, we'd just all go play Age of Conan together or something for a while and let our characters mature. We'd all leave the game and go do something else together before we went through a corp split. Our community is stronger than anything any number of forum trolls can stir up, and larger than any single game. The guys I'm playing Eve with now, I played WoW with two years ago and, hell, in some cases, Ultima Online ten years ago (or however long it's been).
I don't think that'll happen, frankly, because if things got anywhere near that bad we could fund our war just off of reselling t2 loot, we've done it before, and we've done it against "elite" groups who thought they were unbeatable. We'll see how everything plays out.
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BuSHiDo ZiN
GoonWaffe
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:19:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Azrael Bierce
I just hope all the various entities that claim to hate BoB and all it stands for take this war as an opportunity to attack the BoB regions. I doubt a better opportunity will come up.
Could be interesting, bloody, times in the W/NW.
Won't happen, it's much easier to hate someone and brood in your own corner of the universe than it is to actually go out and attack them.
I think BoB seriously underestimates the drive of goonswarm, and if they think they're going to have a decisive victory in weeks or even months, they're sorely mistaken. They're wandering into a vietnam.
That said, I call upon everyone in this thread to call anyone who brings up "that topic" a Dundering Poodleneck
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: BuSHiDo ZiN
They're wandering into a vietnam./quote]
Keep thinking that.
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Jholo Artei
GoonWaffe
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: BuSHiDo ZiN
They're wandering into a vietnam./quote]
Keep thinking that.
Keep exploiting the death of your friend for your videogame amusement.
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BuSHiDo ZiN
GoonWaffe
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:26:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jholo Artei
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: BuSHiDo ZiN
They're wandering into a vietnam./quote]
Keep thinking that.
Keep exploiting the death of your friend for your videogame amusement.
YOU ARE A DUNDERING PODDLENECK CHRIST
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Ismern
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: EvilNate
Break morale and corps start dropping out, when enough corps drop out, they can't defend as well and you can start to watch your friends dissapear too. Eventually the alliance disbands.
Look what happened to Sparta.
This is, in fact, true.
However, 90% of the GoonSwarm membership are in "one corp" divided by Sovereignty.
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"It's not that I'm lazy . . . It's that I just don't care." |
BuSHiDo ZiN
GoonWaffe
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:27:00 -
[19]
Edited by: BuSHiDo ZiN on 28/07/2006 16:26:59
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: BuSHiDo ZiN
They're wandering into a vietnam.
Keep thinking that.
Keep thinking that it won't be.
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Traxio Nacho
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:29:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Traxio Nacho on 28/07/2006 16:29:27
Originally by: Jholo Artei
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: BuSHiDo ZiN
They're wandering into a vietnam./quote]
Keep thinking that.
Keep exploiting the death of your friend for your videogame amusement.
Quite honestly its GS that keep bringing that up now and whining about it just let it drop.
Seriously why does it take 5 GS everytime to reply to one comment.
BOB might not kill your alliance but if they put everything they have behind it like someone else has said about FA/NORAD they will cripple you so you are no longer the alliance you once were.... and I hope they do.
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Darus Xarin
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:30:00 -
[21]
don't feed the trolls.
close this post please mods
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The Mittani
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:31:00 -
[22]
Edited by: The Mittani on 28/07/2006 16:32:22
Just saw that sig.
Originally by: Dianabolic
If you guys really think you can keep eve seperate from rl with all the politics and oog coordination that goes on then you really are deluded.
Dianabolic is clearly in no position to be telling anyone what to think, given his views on this game.
Internet: Serious Business!
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The Anointed
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: BuSHiDo ZiN
Edited by: BuSHiDo ZiN on 28/07/2006 16:26:59
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: BuSHiDo ZiN
They're wandering into a vietnam.
Keep thinking that.
Keep thinking that it won't be.
BoB has no internal media to loose the war for them, so its not going to be anything like vietnam. (Not that I was there)
Both alliances have one thing in common, way too many people eager to blow stuff up and cause mayhem. Should be fun to watch.
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Calenth
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:33:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Traxio Nacho
Quite honestly its GS that keep bringing that up now and whining about it just let it drop.
You're right, at this point we should let it drop too. I think everyone who's willing to see our side of things has had a chance to do so by now.
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Cockeyed
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:36:00 -
[25]
They have WMD's, we must strike first...
Famous Last .....
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Snowden Vel
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:36:00 -
[26]
On an unrelated note, these forums have some of the worst software I've ever seen!
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Dianabolic
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:37:00 -
[27]
Originally by: The Mittani
Edited by: The Mittani on 28/07/2006 16:32:22
Just saw that sig.
Originally by: Dianabolic
If you guys really think you can keep eve seperate from rl with all the politics and oog coordination that goes on then you really are deluded.
Dianabolic is clearly in no position to be telling anyone what to think, given his views on this game.
Internet: Serious Business!
From that quote, mittani, which of us has more of a problem dealing with the real world than the other?
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Snowden Vel
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:43:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dianabolic
Originally by: The Mittani
Edited by: The Mittani on 28/07/2006 16:32:22
Just saw that sig.
Originally by: Dianabolic
If you guys really think you can keep eve seperate from rl with all the politics and oog coordination that goes on then you really are deluded.
Dianabolic is clearly in no position to be telling anyone what to think, given his views on this game.
Internet: Serious Business!
From that quote, mittani, which of us has more of a problem dealing with the real world than the other?
THERE IS AS YET INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR A MEANINGFUL ANSWER.
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Stamm
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:44:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
All Goonswarm has to do is fall back to S-U. If bob tries to push them out of there they will lose billions and billions of isk while being repeatedly swarmed with t1 frigs and cruisers.
Quite true. However, falling back to S-U would be Goonswarm failing to take Cloud Ring, which they've invested massive amounts of time effort and ISK into. Would it cause the death of the alliance? I don't know, I don't think it will. But it will have a greater or lesser effect on their playerbase, it could drop significantly. But only time will tell. But it could make them stronger I guess, more determined so that when they do strike out for space again they do it better.
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insolace
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.28 16:48:00 -
[30]
Edited by: insolace on 28/07/2006 16:48:22
I've been posting on the somethingawful forums since 2001, the people I play with in eve are people who I have been laughing with and c-rack-ing (they filter "*****? wtf") jokes with for a long time now. I've been to countless local goon meets and even a few international ones. The time we had 400 goons running around in las vegas causing havoc will surely be an epic memory for years to come. I dated and shared an apartment with a goon for over two years.
Why would I ever fight alongside with anyone in this game other than a goon? I'm considered a casual goon by our community standards, there are many people much more dedicated to the cause than I.
The only way you'll get me to leave goonswarm is when I cancel my EVE subscription. If you want proof of the solidarity of goons and a good prediction of how stable an organization we are, go take a look at the history of goons in Star Wars Galaxies, I believe we completely dominated that game/server by the time we all left due to extreme boredome.
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