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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Jacob Majestic
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.07.31 17:35:00 -
[181]
One of the real problems is that the algorithmic complexity for handling events on a single grid are O(n^2) if you insist on each client being perfectly informed. End of story. Polynomial complexity is tractable when n is small but it gets as hard as a brick wall when n starts getting larger (300 or 500, for instance).
I wonder how well people would accept an optimization which means that in large engagements their clients are no longer completely informed -- i.e. they get some constant-time update of system status in a batch rather than in a realtime manner.
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Matthew
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.31 18:11:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Dinique That was in context of extra dedicated nodes for fleet battles vs adding them to the pool for global improvement. Hence, there would be no stripping out of nodes if it was done as I suggested, hence no newly created lag problems.
Fair enough, I'll bring in another pair of points that makes it relevant then: playerbase growth and money. CCP can only afford to aquire hardware at a certain rate. The playerbase is growing at a certain rate. Therefore They will need extra/upgraded nodes to satisfy demand in the future. We've already seen the horrific global performance issues that can occur when server hardware growth fails to keep up with player numbers. Buying new nodes now might jeapoardise the future investments to keep up with that growth. Or it may mean that they can fleet-battle specialise extra nodes now, but when the playerbase grows again, they are taken back for the greater good. Which is hardly a long-term solution. CCP's resources are limited, and whatever way you look at it, doing one thing means that they won't be able to do something else.
Originally by: Dinique And as much as you seem to want to argue "for" CCP and defend them and "against" fleet battles, there is no escaping that fleet battles are a fact of 0.0 alliance life. It needs to be supported. The game's mechanics necessitates it.
This isn't an attack against CCP, you don't need to defend them. All we ask is that everything possible is done to support fleet battles as well as possible. Lag in fleet battles IS acceptable to me, to a certain degree. 45 Minutes of limbo is most definitely not what I file under "acceptable".
The problem is that while 45 Minutes of limbo may not be what you call "acceptable", it may well be what "support fleet battles as well as possible" means in the context of current technology with the numbers you are throwing at it. The Devs love Eve, many of them seem unhealthily devoted to it. But there are limits to what they can do. Yes, they might get them a bit better right now with massive hardware investment, manual tweaks etc. But that money and effort would have to come off some other part of Eve operations. Maybe it would be one less programmer, which meant that they couldn't implement the kali2 changes to corps, factions sov etc that could be used to alleviate blobbing?
CCP have to manage a lot of competing issues, problems and objectives, fleet battles being just one. And brute-forcing the technology isn't always the best way to achieve the desired effect.
Originally by: Reithan I think the most helpful fix here would be to simply find a way to make the nodes "hot-swappable".
Make is so that a downtime ISN"T required for node reassignment.
I can think of a couple 'theoretical' ways to accomplish that, but with no foreknowledge of CCP's architecture and whatnot, they'd all be worthless.
But anyway, if they could accomplish dynamic, on-the-fly node reassignment, I think 90% of these problems would dissolve overnight.
If it was that easy, maybe they'd have done it already
While theoretically possible, the programmer man-hours required to implement would likely be so massive it would cripple other development. And even if they started now, I doubt we'd see any results from it for at least 8 months. Then there's the issue that you'd need masses of spare capacity to handle the handover without a break. And it still wouldn't solve the problem of fleet battles that overloaded a dedicated node - which would be most of the ones of the size this thread is discussing. So it would be a massive time investment for only a small gain. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
TOGAKURE Daisuke
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Posted - 2006.08.01 06:49:00 -
[183]
Well, the parties going to clash over could fix this themselves easily.
According to the devpost, the balancing system takes averages, so just make sure that the systems where you're going to fight gets pretty decent average days before the match. You surely have been telling that the clash was inevitable?
Just agree that there will be posturing party for a few days before, everybody getting to the system in their playtime and doing fancy fly-byes of enemy ships (without major escalation) until the weekend. Show some tail, make noise, smack :D
Hell, maybe you could even get TV out there :D Seems to work that way in RL too.
Now the node has already been balanced to at least 300-400 people average and you can commence your battle the next day. Fun ensues.
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McDeth187
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.08.01 07:01:00 -
[184]
Originally by: TOGAKURE Daisuke Well, the parties going to clash over could fix this themselves easily.
According to the devpost, the balancing system takes averages, so just make sure that the systems where you're going to fight gets pretty decent average days before the match. You surely have been telling that the clash was inevitable?
Just agree that there will be posturing party for a few days before, everybody getting to the system in their playtime and doing fancy fly-byes of enemy ships (without major escalation) until the weekend. Show some tail, make noise, smack :D
Hell, maybe you could even get TV out there :D Seems to work that way in RL too.
Now the node has already been balanced to at least 300-400 people average and you can commence your battle the next day. Fun ensues.
Before the fleet battle that crashed XZH, XZH and the surrounding systems regularly had 100-200 players on daily. It still crashed.
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Matthew
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.01 07:42:00 -
[185]
Originally by: McDeth187 Before the fleet battle that crashed XZH, XZH and the surrounding systems regularly had 100-200 players on daily. It still crashed.
Was that 100-200 players 23/7, or just over the peak period?
Also bear in mind that just having 200 people logged in afk sitting in station or at a safe isn't really going to help much - they'll be generating almost no load like that, so won't be making a large impression on the load balancing. You'd actually have to have them do stuff that would generate the same sort of load as a fleet battle, consistently, for the majority of the day, for several days beforehand, if you're going to seriously influence the loadbalancer. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Nafri
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.01 07:46:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: McDeth187 Before the fleet battle that crashed XZH, XZH and the surrounding systems regularly had 100-200 players on daily. It still crashed.
Was that 100-200 players 23/7, or just over the peak period?
Also bear in mind that just having 200 people logged in afk sitting in station or at a safe isn't really going to help much - they'll be generating almost no load like that, so won't be making a large impression on the load balancing. You'd actually have to have them do stuff that would generate the same sort of load as a fleet battle, consistently, for the majority of the day, for several days beforehand, if you're going to seriously influence the loadbalancer.
100-200 people the whole time, we had fleetbattles in the morning, in the night and at the afternoon
From Dusk till Dawn Sig removed, e-mail us if you'd like to know why. -ReverendM ([email protected]) |
Caleb Paine
Itchy Trigger Finger Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.01 07:50:00 -
[187]
I don't get this, you get 300 people close together, you all target eachother, shoot eachother, bump into eachother all strengthen eachother due to command bonuses and you suddenly all start to run almost all your modules at exactly the same time. Each and everyone of you will have crapola videolag due to using your Vic20 as main PC using a teltron 1200 modem, more lag from your side comes from the 180GB pron you have, the 39485735 viruses, even more spyware oh and the 200MB theme you use for windows isn't helping either.
What part of "300 is just too much to handle" don't you understand?
----------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
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Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.08.01 07:58:00 -
[188]
ah well keep it coming look at the other systems it was sharing a node with might wanna crowd them in as well
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Matthew
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.01 08:09:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Nafri 100-200 people the whole time, we had fleetbattles in the morning, in the night and at the afternoon
Mm, well if the 100-200 were fairly quiet outside the fleet battles, that probably wouldn't influence things hugely, especially if that had come from people pulling back from the other systems in the constellation (oveur's post tends to suggest load is balanced at a constellation level in the first instance). Each battle I assume was 2-3 hours in length? So you were only at high load for 6-8 hours of the day, so the balancer probably averages that peak load down over the whole 23 hour daily uptime. It probably also takes a view over at least a full week to stop it fluctuating too much. Oveur also mentions that Sunday's are best for profiling, so it's possible the loadbalancer is biased in that direction too. Oveur mentioned the Dragon codebranch having much better loadbalancing in these sporadic load situations, so they have been working on it.
Incidentally, does anyone have an impression of general activity levels in the constellations Oveur listed in his post? Prelle is the only constellation common to both lists, so something has been shifting, though I don't know enough about the constellations in question to know whether that shift is to have XZH share with lower-traffic constellations or not.
There is of course another problem with the loadbalancing - lag inevitably applies it's own load limit by preventing people doing as much as they would otherwise do. So the fleet battles won't be generating the full load for the loadbalancer to see, which further complicates matters. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2006.08.01 08:44:00 -
[190]
*amazed that people are arguing over how much traffic was in the system pre-lag*
Originally by: Oveur We have an automatic system. The system currently breaks under X condition.
Originally by: Rabble X condition didn't happen! Y condition did! Ergo, there shouldn't have been lag! So why was there lag?!
*tries to approach a method of reasoning whereas further delving into this line of conversation might even graze a useful conclusion*
Notes: All quotes paraphrased. Also, 1M ISK for the first sufficiently amusing, properly constructed, and genuine argumentum ad hominem.
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Devious
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Posted - 2006.08.01 10:20:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Devious on 01/08/2006 10:20:46 The offical Response will be , CCP do not respond to questions or Flames of this nature....thats all i see, whenever there is a big problem , they stay quiet. i guess its because they know it is an issue and there is nothing appart from going out and buying more ramsans that they can do.just be nice to see a Dev respond with a real answer.
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Caleb Paine
Itchy Trigger Finger Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.01 10:27:00 -
[192]
If met with unreasonable demands, or people coming up with answers of their own which clearly demonstrate they have no idea what they're talking about... I'd stay quiet too. The only proper answer they could give is "300 people shooting at eachother, take a wild guess what happens!".
And they'd be right.
----------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.01 10:28:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Devious Edited by: Devious on 01/08/2006 10:20:46 The offical Response will be , CCP do not respond to questions or Flames of this nature....thats all i see, whenever there is a big problem , they stay quiet. i guess its because they know it is an issue and there is nothing appart from going out and buying more ramsans that they can do.just be nice to see a Dev respond with a real answer.
Read the damn thread... there's gold bars at this post for a reason.
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rig0r
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.01 10:56:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Gibmundur Remove poses from eve, remove capital ships from eve, reinstate the fun station taking without having to throw up poses.
WHAT HE SAID.
And fix the fricking forums. I can't post a reply without re-logging in 3 times.
Eve on Linux |
ParMizaN
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.01 16:29:00 -
[195]
Spamming a thread will get you nowhere, CCP know the problem, and you know it too. Stop making the biggest fleets possible and spamming bubbles or whatever. Speak with your opponent and sort out something which will reduce the lag a bit.
sig edited for lack of pink really PINK -eris |
Drelkarion
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:05:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Hanns Choibman Edited by: Hanns Choibman on 29/07/2006 01:59:16 Can CCP make some kind of official anouncment that if you are in an 0.0 system with 300+ players that their game will simply not be playable at all
Or make some kind of recomendation that fleet battles do not work so if you want to be in an alliance you may as well quit.
Do CCP realise that their game opens up possibilities for things that it cannot handle.
Becasue I am a paying customer that plays by the rules and CCP's fine print basicaly states if our service can't handle it you are screwed in game.
Besides the original incident of the game clagging up so bad I lost my precious T2 Raven, I am now in a pod with 800 billion cargo contianers in my overview repeatedly blowing up and appering in the same spot. I can't access any menus in game not even ESC menu, re logging or anything, and 300 people in system are all stuffed.
A big banner or FAQ telling people to not to play with a group of friends larger than 10 in any system should be implemented soon I hope.
The irony of my sig is not lost on me now, I think I have reached a new level of understanding
Hi, I see you have no idea WTF you are talking about. I have a major suggestion: Stop whining right now. This game barely lags compared to many other MMO's. If you want to see some real lag, play World of Warcraft. Blizzard has made 100+ servers (there's usually between 1000 to 10000 people a server...the main EVE server has almost a total of like 150,000) to try and fix the lag problem, and it still lags like crazy. See, EVE Online has two servers (and one of them is just a test server), and this game doesn't lag at all in comparison to WoW.
So please, don't tell me this game lags when you have the joy of having a game that doesn't lag every second of battle no matter how good your computer is. In fact, in WOw when you walk into a city it lags every second you are there.
I came from World of Warcraft after playing it for a year. You have it much, much, better than the players of WoW, or most other MMO's.
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:25:00 -
[197]
I think the bottom line that many people have missed is that there is a limit on the amount of ships and fighting that can happen in any one system.
Even if that system is on it's own node all by it's lonesome.
I don't know exactly what that limit is. But from my experiance. Anything larger than 200 players in active combat is going to get laggy, and once you double that number, it's going to be downright unplayable.
And I say this while running a 4000+ x2 2 gb of ram and an SLI'd 6600gt256 (x2) So this is not on my end. I also have tier 3 comcast cable and ping the server at less than 30ms.
What needs to happen, based on the above information, is that CCP needs to find a way to make it playable at those numbers. Or build in a game mechanic that stops people from blobbing. It's an either or propisition. Because from this point forward, it only gets worse. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________ |
Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.01 17:32:00 -
[198]
For those *****ing about goonfleet blobbing, in "ye olde days" the servers could quite happily handle these massive fleet fights.
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - |
Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.08.01 18:32:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Sarmaul For those *****ing about goonfleet blobbing, in "ye olde days" the servers could quite happily handle these massive fleet fights.
They could?I don't think so..Even if CCP manages to keep 300 users fighting without lag the next week people will bring 600 and then they will moan on the forums (rightfully so) and then CCP will make 600 lagger free and ...then .. ops :)
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Skilo
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Posted - 2006.08.01 19:45:00 -
[200]
Goons fleets will be a "problem" solved without CCP help
Let CCP solve real "problems" in Eve!
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Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.01 19:51:00 -
[201]
Originally by: rig0r
Originally by: Gibmundur Remove poses from eve, remove capital ships from eve, reinstate the fun station taking without having to throw up poses.
WHAT HE SAID.
And fix the fricking forums. I can't post a reply without re-logging in 3 times.
/signed and /signed
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - |
mechtech
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Posted - 2006.08.01 20:07:00 -
[202]
We need load balancing!! after kali, put all the programmers capable to do it on load balancing, I think most of us would love to see working fleet battles before even more content comes in.
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Tehyarec
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Posted - 2006.08.01 20:49:00 -
[203]
In a perfect (or at least a lot better) world we'd either have the power of the whole current cluster per each solar system, or immediate seamless load balancing so performance would scale according to number of people in the system, with no wait, no hiccups, etc.
Unfortunately, as well all know, the world ain't perfect
Silverleaf Foundation Website & Shop |
PeeWee Pee
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Posted - 2006.08.01 21:12:00 -
[204]
Originally by: rig0r
Originally by: Gibmundur Remove poses from eve, remove capital ships from eve, reinstate the fun station taking without having to throw up poses.
WHAT HE SAID.
And fix the fricking forums. I can't post a reply without re-logging in 3 times.
meh... blobbing for life. zomg lost.. nerf nerf nerf! if it broke, fix it ccp!
let da whorus commence singing.
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Dinique
Caldari Black Lance Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.02 07:43:00 -
[205]
Originally by: ParMizaN Spamming a thread will get you nowhere, CCP know the problem, and you know it too. Stop making the biggest fleets possible and spamming bubbles or whatever. Speak with your opponent and sort out something which will reduce the lag a bit.
Are you serious?
Take a moment, if you will, and consider how well THAT would work.
If you really are serious, you need a reality check. Dusk till Dawn Twilight to Starlight
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Sorela
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.02 14:29:00 -
[206]
First off I think CCP and Oveur should get some kudo's for releasing that kind of technical info. Most game companies would go into spasms at the thought of telling people what's going on.
My questions for CCP are:
1) Do you have an on-the-fly system being coded currently or at least in the planning stages? 2) If one isn't being planned how about a game mechanic that lets the server anticipate large battles. Like maybe shadowbane style POS bane circles or something.
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Anglyson
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Posted - 2006.08.02 16:08:00 -
[207]
Originally by: mechtech We need load balancing!! after kali, put all the programmers capable to do it on load balancing, I think most of us would love to see working fleet battles before even more content comes in.
from past experience, load balancing doesn't work seems to lag out systems with just one character in them (personal experience)
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Anglyson
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Posted - 2006.08.02 16:12:00 -
[208]
Originally by: ParMizaN Spamming a thread will get you nowhere, CCP know the problem, and you know it too. Stop making the biggest fleets possible and spamming bubbles or whatever. Speak with your opponent and sort out something which will reduce the lag a bit.
wth diplomacy? please no!!! ships/modules don't get destroyed the whole economy collapses, specially my personal one
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Swedish Bob
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Posted - 2006.08.02 16:37:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Dinique
Are you serious?
Take a moment, if you will, and consider how well THAT would work.
If you really are serious, you need a reality check.
I say my good sir. Why don't we settle this in a civilized manner. Shall we say rifters after noon tea?
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PeeWee Pee
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Posted - 2006.08.02 20:33:00 -
[210]
Originally by: Anglyson
Originally by: mechtech We need load balancing!! after kali, put all the programmers capable to do it on load balancing, I think most of us would love to see working fleet battles before even more content comes in.
from past experience, load balancing doesn't work seems to lag out systems with just one character in them (personal experience)
dude load balance works and you know it sucker. shall we sayz let load be balanced by total skill points of all playas in da system. the system with the highest skill point total gets da more nodes. problem solved. case closed. end of story.
you wont have your 1 man laggy system if they joz do dis. |
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