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Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:10:00 -
[1]
The suggested Nos nerf is to make it so Nos can't take the last bit of cap. They didn't say how much, but I'd guess the last 10%. This is a very bad idea, for 2 reasons:
1) This only helps Minmitar & Caldari, as that last bit of cap keeps them repairing, guns a blazing, etc... Perhaps not for long, but good enough. Amarr & to some extent Gallente get screwed. The last 10% wont help at all, as we'll burn through that in seconds...A very unfair nerf if you ask me. Only fix to Nos should be some sort of tracking, period. BS nos shouldn't hit frigs as hard...but still hit, etc, etc.
2) You ruin the many ships. Curse & Pilgrim get screwed over, Apoc & Domi get even suckier. You open a whole can of worms by nerfing it the way ccp is thinking about. Amarrs weak against Minmitar as it is & this would make it even harder to defeat them. Domi's are already facing an ecm nerf.
In conclusion, Nos should either be left alone or have some slight added tracking to them. Nerfs should only apply to weapons with no counter, nos is easily countered with Cap boosters. I kill a nossing domi with my armageddon every time.
Pls sign the Petition, No flaming or trolls allowed. ISD, pls watch the post as I'd like it to stay as constructive as possible & Tux or whoever, pls share your opinion on the subject. Thank you.
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Levin Cavil
Lucid Ambition
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:16:00 -
[2]
Make nos pull cap based on sig radius, it worked for every other module in the game.
Problem solved. ---------- <Kayosoni> I'm actually normal |

Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:25:00 -
[3]
I agree, but in some post I read, it said Tux & the other devs want to make it so ships have an untouchable amount of cap! Either by using cap batteries or just an inherent amount through percentage.
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HappyKitten
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:30:00 -
[4]
I'm torn over nos. There should be way of raping small ships with big ones, and nos fit into that well.
However, they should not kickass against EVERYTHING. A mod set up to *****smaller ships should not be pretty much vital against many BSs as well.
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Instagib
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:35:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata
1) This only helps Minmitar & Caldari, as that last bit of cap keeps them repairing, guns a blazing, etc... Perhaps not for long, but good enough. Amarr & to some extent Gallente get screwed. The last 10% wont help at all, as we'll burn through that in seconds...A very unfair nerf if you ask me. Only fix to Nos should be some sort of tracking, period. BS nos shouldn't hit frigs as hard...but still hit, etc, etc.
This is an excellent point and I really hope the devs take note. As someone mentioned at the very least there needs to be a racial or ship class difference the between the protected x% amount.
Even from RP PoV. It would make sense that designers of ships that can be competely shut off with cap drain would put more efford into 'protecting' the capacitor.
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Levin Cavil
Lucid Ambition
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:38:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Instagib
Originally by: Cosmo Raata
1) This only helps Minmitar & Caldari, as that last bit of cap keeps them repairing, guns a blazing, etc... Perhaps not for long, but good enough. Amarr & to some extent Gallente get screwed. The last 10% wont help at all, as we'll burn through that in seconds...A very unfair nerf if you ask me. Only fix to Nos should be some sort of tracking, period. BS nos shouldn't hit frigs as hard...but still hit, etc, etc.
This is an excellent point and I really hope the devs take note. As someone mentioned at the very least there needs to be a racial or ship class difference the between the protected x% amount.
Even from RP PoV. It would make sense that designers of ships that can be competely shut off with cap drain would put more efford into 'protecting' the capacitor.
If they can protect some amount of the capacitor from nos why not just protect the whole capacitor the same way?
Also, why should a big ship ever be able to shut a small ship off completely? There should be a counter naturally but why make it absolute? As it stands nosferatu alone are protection enough. Drones and guns should also come into the equation. ---------- <Kayosoni> I'm actually normal |

Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:41:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata BS nos shouldn't hit frigs as hard...but still hit, etc, etc.
why not?  Would the poster above me please stand up? |

Instagib
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Levin Cavil
Originally by: Instagib
Originally by: Cosmo Raata
1) This only helps Minmitar & Caldari, as that last bit of cap keeps them repairing, guns a blazing, etc... Perhaps not for long, but good enough. Amarr & to some extent Gallente get screwed. The last 10% wont help at all, as we'll burn through that in seconds...A very unfair nerf if you ask me. Only fix to Nos should be some sort of tracking, period. BS nos shouldn't hit frigs as hard...but still hit, etc, etc.
This is an excellent point and I really hope the devs take note. As someone mentioned at the very least there needs to be a racial or ship class difference the between the protected x% amount.
Even from RP PoV. It would make sense that designers of ships that can be competely shut off with cap drain would put more efford into 'protecting' the capacitor.
If they can protect some amount of the capacitor from nos why not just protect the whole capacitor the same way?
Also, why should a big ship ever be able to shut a small ship off completely? There should be a counter naturally but why make it absolute? As it stands nosferatu alone are protection enough. Drones and guns should also come into the equation.
Hey, I'm just commenting on the idea the devs brought up. Personally I think it's more realistic that the lower the cap (as % of total cap) the less effective nos becomes.
But in the end balance > realistic. So meh.
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Hellspawn666
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:44:00 -
[9]
Nos arnt that overpowered really, i mean a BS being able to do that to a frig makes sense. TBH one nos doesnt actually nos out an inty from tackling you, the refire is too long. I dont see why everyones like OMG OVERPOWERED NOS, nos dont actually do any damage at the end of the day, and the PG/cpu cost on them is high enough for it to hurt fitting a fair bit. NOS dommi is a bit overpowered in a 1on1 situation but in actualy pvp often nos take far to long to actually take someone down.
I dont see how you can say its benefitical to mimitar/caldari but not the other races. Its not like you can tank very easily with 10% cap. This change is more benifical to amarr/galante which is the desired effect really, its a bit annoying using nos to actually entirely neutralise a ship. If you add tracking to nos you basically give any HAC/inty gangs more power then ever. My only fear in a vagabond was dual web nos bs.
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anotleam
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:48:00 -
[10]
1)The whole concept of "sucking" the energy from the other ship is stupid, so questions like "why dont they protect the whole cap" are out of place... answer would be cause the capactior yidda-yadda counter the nos effect as result of the yadda-yadda. Let em find a balancing solution, then look for an "explanation", as the only thing they could do that makes "real" sense is removing the "energy stealing" from the game...
2) nerfing the nos wouldnt make the dom "even suckier"... it would stop it from being so damn overpowered in 1vs1 and small engagement at short-mid range :P. It is possible that the nerf will make it crappy tho. The ecm nerft, i have not many hopes in that, the last one didnt end up very well lol.
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Instagib
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.30 08:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hellspawn666
I dont see how you can say its benefitical to mimitar/caldari but not the other races. Its not like you can tank very easily with 10% cap. This change is more benifical to amarr/galante which is the desired effect really, its a bit annoying using nos to actually entirely neutralise a ship. If you add tracking to nos you basically give any HAC/inty gangs more power then ever. My only fear in a vagabond was dual web nos bs.
I don't believe it has anything to do with tanking. The difference is in the offense. A hyrid/laser boat has two options, turn off their guns or crash there cap competely. Both suck.
Low cap modules such as hardeners, scram, web, etc.. will run easily. Along with full offense on caldari/minmatar ships. Wether it's a too small advantage to even argue over or not I shall not say, but it's a n advantage never the less.
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Misty Peaks
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:02:00 -
[12]
How about making it suck the energy out in a different way: If you fire a heavy NOS on another ship it sucks from 'total cap' kinda like diverting power generated to your ship instead of theirs
ie. Heavy NOS takes 15% total cap and adds it to your own 5000 total cap taken down to 4250 (messes up their regen abit) you get 5750 (boosts your regen abit. Now it would still have the cap cost for you so you wont be getting much benefit (but you will be getting some)
This makes it unilateral, every ship gets effected the same (heavy NOS = 15%, med = 10%, small = 5%), 15% on a frigate isnt really much as they have very fast regen to begin with.
Now in the case of Domi's and curse etc where you can fit 3+ heavy NOS...52% from 3 is a bit much, but in the long run its better than 3x current NOS plus if your using cap boosters its almost completely irrelevant to begin with.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:05:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/07/2006 09:06:57
1) Caldari and Minmatar can fire their weapons with 0 cap. 2) Equip a energy neutralizer and you will suck the last bit of cap from their system. 3) Amarr and Gallente uses cap injectors very frequently.
Your "conclusion" is very flawed. EVERY change in this game leads to changes for someone. Adapt and deal with it.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:14:00 -
[14]
Could just make NOS into a diminishing effect device. First time active, drains max energy. Each active cycle drains less cap. Not beneficial to NOS for long combat durations.
Just an idea and not sure how it works because first cycle could drain interceptors, whatever completely. Though energy draining is the current form of defense for bigger ships versus smaller ships.  ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Ithildin
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:23:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 30/07/2006 09:06:57
1) Caldari and Minmatar can fire their weapons with 0 cap. 2) Equip a energy neutralizer and you will suck the last bit of cap from their system. 3) Amarr and Gallente uses cap injectors very frequently.
Your "conclusion" is very flawed. EVERY change in this game leads to changes for someone. Adapt and deal with it.
4) The "Non-Nos" percentage might also be variable according to ships. For example a certain ship, let's take capacitor-king Apoc, might have as much as 40% spared while others, one of them fire-with-nought-cap-left ships, might have a lot less. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |

Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:25:00 -
[16]
1) I'm getting tired of the alt posting, they need to hurry up & fix that.
2) As long as they dont touch Neuts at all, the curse & pilgrim would still work good enough I suppose. But I still think tracking is the answer. Not sure why people are so reluctant to agree with this.
3) Why are we discussing the diminishing cap idea, its already what the devs want to use, come up with some alternatives, like tracking. I Just plain dont think nos is all that powerful, I kill ships that use them all of the time. Including the Domi.
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HappyKitten
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:27:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata 1) I'm getting tired of the alt posting, they need to hurry up & fix that.
Not all alts are bad people  On the other hand, take a look in the corp and alliance discussion. Ulynidd has issued a campaign against alt posts there, and it seems to have improved things.
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Luc Boye
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Levin Cavil Make nos pull cap based on sig radius, it worked for every other module in the game.
Problem solved.
Whats the point of nos then, except making it BS vs BS weapon only. Nos + drones is only thing you have left vs interceptors. -------------------------- MWD Cap Penalty? |

ragewind
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:32:00 -
[19]
leave NOS alown.
sig based is fecked up caldari get screwed then.
frigs whpould get drained totally by a BS nos now remeber nos dose no damage so if you hang about long enofe to end up dead to the torpido raven you fissed of then hang you head in chame and hide FFs nos had nver killed a singel frig ever in this game it just makes them want to run ------------------------------------ fix eves industrial sector!
advanced industrial ship |

Ithildin
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:34:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata 1) I'm getting tired of the alt posting, they need to hurry up & fix that.
2) As long as they dont touch Neuts at all, the curse & pilgrim would still work good enough I suppose. But I still think tracking is the answer. Not sure why people are so reluctant to agree with this.
3) Why are we discussing the diminishing cap idea, its already what the devs want to use, come up with some alternatives, like tracking. I Just plain dont think nos is all that powerful, I kill ships that use them all of the time. Including the Domi.
1. Alt posts have been discussed for aeons. The devs, and especially the moderators, don't like them too much. This is going off on a different topic, however, but suffice to say that there is no clear-cut solution to that "problem".
2. Yup, Neutralizers are pretty fine and dandy - they don't work for free nor do they have very easy fitting requirements in addition to long cycle times.
3. It might be that some people are happy with the suggested approach of safe-guarding a portion of all ship's capacitor. However, there are several problems with many of the other solutions. Tracking, for instance, simply leaves the battleships one defence only - drones. Drones are a bit... iffy... as a solution because only drone dedicated gallente ships can pack enough drones to safe-guard themselves. The dev suggested solution would leave ships with not enough capacitor to run everything, certainly not MWDs, but still leave them good to fight. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death |

Woopie
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata 1) ... But I still think tracking is the answer. Not sure why people are so reluctant to agree with this.
I think it's because the Caldari don't understand that concept 
/me runs and ducks...
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Cosmo Raata
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2006.07.30 09:55:00 -
[22]
I want the large nos to hit the frigs/inties still, just with smaller cap hits.
So dont give them such bad tracking that they dont do anything to them, make the hit we currently get an excellent hit or something like that.
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Woopie
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Posted - 2006.07.30 10:02:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cosmo Raata I want the large nos to hit the frigs/inties still, just with smaller cap hits.
So dont give them such bad tracking that they dont do anything to them, make the hit we currently get an excellent hit or something like that.
There would be no 'excellent' hits or anything like that. You would just take the hit chance % and convert it directly to nos amount. No dice rolling required like with turrets.
The rest would just a matter of finding fair/balanced tracking value. Easy? Probably not.
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Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.07.30 10:03:00 -
[24]
Slap the stacking penalty on it for starters
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - |

Fortior
STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.30 10:06:00 -
[25]
Sweet jesus, you all want a module to counter NOS? I have one for you that already exists but is quite useless. Cap Batteries! Very simple, cap batteries should reserve a certain amount of cap that can't be NOSsed, only used up by the ship itself. This amount could either be a flat amount (like the amount of cap they add for instance) or a percentage of the total cap after you fit them. If going by the flat amount they wouldn't have to be balanced between the different ship classes either. The unNOSsable amount would be balanced from the get-go.
Now we would have a counter to NOS and we would have another balanced and useful module to be used in our setups.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 10:08:00 -
[26]
This is my main character and i dont use alts.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |

Andrea Jaruwalski
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 11:34:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Andrea Jaruwalski on 30/07/2006 11:35:13 I think CCP needs to take changes in slowly. WCS nerf, see how it goes. ECM nerf, see how it goes. Nos nerf, see how it already fallen apart from WCS nerf.
Seriously, if you all change this in one step, it's going to wreck alot of things in EVE 
Originally by: Sarmaul Slap the stacking penalty on it for starters
Yes, And maybe do that for smartbomb, Launchers and turrets and every other highslots in the game so this becomes a lovely stacked up piece of crap game.
Shesh, Sig radius affecting nos? No. It doesn't make much sense.
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Ghargon
Apocalypse Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.07.30 11:47:00 -
[28]
Yesterday i pretty much suicided myself by attacking two ravens and a cerberus in an ishkur, boredoms a terrible thing. anyway i was doing fine until i realised that iwas being nos'd
Now i'm not grouching about being killed, i knew i was going to die when i engaged. But it gave me an idea or two about the nos problem and ways to counter it without swinging the balance straight back into the favour of smaller ships.
1: Make the cycle time of nosferatu much greater (30 seconds or so) and ajust the amount they drain accordingly, This still makes them effective against battleship sized opponents but frigates have time for their cap to recharge in that period making nosferatu as effective at draining cap, but at the same time less effective against frigates and smaller classes of ship.
2: instead of sucking cap make nosferatu increase your opponents cap recharge time while decreasing yours. This simply means that in effect an opponents cap will run dry more quickly while yours takes alot longer to.
I never think of the future - It comes soon enough |

ragewind
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.30 12:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Reincarnator This might be a crazy idea but maybe, make nos take away a percentage instead of a fixed amount.
i have a counter to nos its call useing some brain power.
take small ships againts a BS expect nos so fit cap batters or just fly at 26KM and out range noss you newbs work around the moduals. ------------------------------------ fix eves industrial sector!
advanced industrial ship |

Masochist
Shinra
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Posted - 2006.07.30 12:26:00 -
[30]
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