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zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 08:54:00 - [1] lofty29 has been bragging around on the fact he ransomed 150 Millions ISK in OURS yesterday. It happens that I'm one of the victims. The aim of this post is not to say how sad I'm but to understand how it could happen. Here is the story. I was in Ours yesterday. Leaving station. A noob convoed me and asked for help in L2 mission. TBH I was surprised by how familiar a 5 days old player was with game concepts like creating gangs and such. yet, I didn't listen to my 6th sense and told to myself that noobs should be helped. I entered his gang and warped to him on mission site. This being said I warped to the guy with a 40 km distance in order to be away from warp scramble range "just in case". The noob and Lofty29 were here. Lofty targeted me / I targeted him but didnt shoot. At the same time I warped back to ours 3 (what lost me was the fact that I didn't use my insta).. i warped to 15km of station. While warping I quit the gang. That's where I don't understand what happened ... I briefly saw a message saying "you are not done with the gang activities or such ... " don't remember .. was very brief. Lofty arrived on my heels and locked me (he had dominix & I had eos); used large nos on me + drones + webber + ECM. My cap was rapidly eaten (I think he has several NOS or NEUTRALIZER on highs, it was fast) and I could do nothing .... but try to convo the dude and ask for mercy... Which he accepted.... What I don't understand is the following : how come a guy which was not originally in the GANG i formed with the fake noob could target me and fire at me without being destroyed by CONCORD ? I didn't fire @ him (just auto targetted back). Did he join the gang after I quit and used a game mechanism to be allowed to be agressive toward (a kind of timeout on the gang) ... pls help me understand
Avon Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 08:58:00 - [2] The guy you ganged with would have been at war with lofty29. That makes you a valid target. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Gariuys Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:00:00 - [3] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What Avon said^^. OTOH, what were you flying that made you pay 150M? kitted EOS. says so in the post...
Gariuys Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:00:00 - [4] Cheap tactic, but valid.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:00:00 - [5] What Avon said^^. OTOH, what were you flying that made you pay 150M? ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:01:00 - [6] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What Avon said^^. OTOH, what were you flying that made you pay 150M? kitted EOS. says so in the post... Ta. Read it as NOS. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Tachy	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:02:00 - [7] Forming a gang takes about 30 seconds. Do not warp to your gangmate right upon entering the group. Dock and wait for that half minute to run out. The client doesn't check if all work is done but just got that 30 seconds timer running instead. The same philosophy is implemented in a lot of situations in EVE. Ship changes, S&I, coming contract system ... They all got the 'Not finished when the job's done because the server would have to track the stuff on its own - finish the **** by yourself or qwait until a timer has run its course'. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:02:00 - [8] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 09:02:02 By joining the gang, you became a valid target because Lofty is at war with his alt. When joining the gang, it was seen by the game as you were helping the alt vs Lofty, so you became a valid target. I think thats how it works. Lofty talked about it before, but I might not have understood it correctly. Im not sure why you couldnt leave the gang though (sounds like you couldnt from that message). Edit: Woa.. so many replies before me. Im getting old and slow. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Jim McGregor I think thats how it works. Lofty talked about it before, but I might not have understood it correctly. Im not sure why you couldnt leave the gang though (sounds like you couldnt from that message). He left the gang but he still had war/aggro timer active. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire He left the gang but he still had war/aggro timer active. Thanks Jenny. How long is the timer in that situation? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tachy	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:05:00 - [11] Oh, and the fake noob ganged his alt he's at war with after you joined the gang. That happens for a long time ... like 3 years - since CONCORD was invented. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
CodeR70	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:05:00 - [12] He uses this trick for months now. What happens is that you joined a gang (corp) that is in war with the gang (corp) of lofty. This is also stated in the warning message when you accept the gang invitation. You are not the first, and probably not the last who falls for this trick. Afterwards he is braging a lot how uber he is.
Gariuys Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 09:02:02 By joining the gang, you became a valid target because Lofty is at war with his alt. When joining the gang, it was seen by the game as you were helping the alt vs Lofty, so you became a valid target. I think thats how it works. Lofty talked about it before, but I might not have understood it correctly. Im not sure why you couldnt leave the gang though (sounds like you couldnt from that message). Edit: Woa.. so many replies before me. Im getting old and slow. Lol but 4 *****s in a row, so no harm done. ;-)
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:06:00 - [14] Edited by: zerb''liar on 31/07/2006 09:07:08 IS there a way to know who is at war with who ? In this case that means that the fake noob was in fact controlled by lofty and declared a fake war in order to use this game mechanism... How much is a war worth ?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:07:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 09:07:59 Well, its a lame tactic, but after running around lowsec for 6 hours without finding a target, im beginning to understand why people do stuff like this. Same thing with gate sniping/camping. It might be lame, but hey, dont blame pirates. Blame the game. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:08:00 - [16] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Jenny Spitfire He left the gang but he still had war/aggro timer active. Thanks Jenny. How long is the timer in that situation? AFAIK, 15 mins. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Gariuys Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:09:00 - [17] Originally by: zerb'liar Edited by: zerb''liar on 31/07/2006 09:07:08 IS there a way to know who is at war with who ? In this case that means that the fake noob was in fact controlled by lofty and declared a fake war in order to use this game mechanism... How much is a war worth ? A war is 1mil a week or so, cheap. and you get a warning message when joining the gang...
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:09:00 - [18] So basically the fact that the guy you join is at war with someone appears in the gang warning message before accepting to enter the gang ?
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:10:00 - [19] and I blame no one but meself on that situation : if there is a way to know, that is not an exploit... that is the game...
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:10:00 - [20] Originally by: zerb'liar So basically the fact that the guy you join is at war with someone appears in the gang warning message before accepting to enter the gang ? Well, message says that someone COULD be at war with the guy I think. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:10:00 - [21] Originally by: zerb'liar Edited by: zerb''liar on 31/07/2006 09:07:08 IS there a way to know who is at war with who ? In this case that means that the fake noob was in fact controlled by lofty and declared a fake war in order to use this game mechanism... How much is a war worth ? Yes. Read gang dialog before accepting it. Yes again. Alts are the bane of EvE. CCP should have made the client single instance on a machine. 0.0 and empire warefare are lame because of alts. Empire is the worst though because you can abuse Concord. War is cheap. A few millions. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Gariuys Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:12:00 - [22] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: zerb'liar So basically the fact that the guy you join is at war with someone appears in the gang warning message before accepting to enter the gang ? Well, message says that someone COULD be at war with the guy I think. It warns for active wars IIRC. And ganging with a valid wartarget is taking a risk no matter if lofty is waiting for you or not.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:12:00 - [23] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 31/07/2006 09:12:17 Originally by: zerb'liar and I blame no one but meself on that situation : if there is a way to know, that is not an exploit... that is the game... EvE is a masochistic place for sadistic players with malevolent desires. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:12:00 - [24] Thanks to all of you for that info... Fly safe...
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:13:00 - [25] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 31/07/2006 09:12:17 Originally by: zerb'liar and I blame no one but meself on that situation : if there is a way to know, that is not an exploit... that is the game... EvE is a masochistic place for sadistic players with malevolent desires. So that's why you fit right in? ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Gariuys Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:13:00 - [26] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 31/07/2006 09:12:17 Originally by: zerb'liar and I blame no one but meself on that situation : if there is a way to know, that is not an exploit... that is the game... EvE is a masochistic place for sadistic players with malevolent desires. So that's why you fit right in?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:13:00 - [27] Originally by: zerb'liar and I blame no one but meself on that situation : if there is a way to know, that is not an exploit... that is the game... Yep, its the game and you are right. But I think it shows a bigger problem with piracy in itself. Its so hard to find people, and its so easy to avoid pirates. Thats why people do stuff like this. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Gariuys It warns for active wars IIRC. And ganging with a valid wartarget is taking a risk no matter if lofty is waiting for you or not. Aye, thanks for clarification. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:19:00 - [29] and TBH, I'm not a masochist. I paid the price he asked (to be precise 127 millions) because I was flyin a ship that was fitted with more than that... that was good business for him and good decision for me. In order to be relatively coold regarding this kind of events the key is "ISK". If you have little and get ransomed/destroyed u get mad. If u have a lot and have "incidents" in your career, you just try to learn from those 'incidents'. I don't thank lofty (I even will eventually try to get my money back in a way or another) but well. I'm pragmatic .. he outsmarted me / or I was too little informed about rules / too confident about my own power...
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:22:00 - [30] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 31/07/2006 09:24:03 Originally by: zerb'liar and TBH, I'm not a masochist. I paid the price he asked (to be precise 127 millions) because I was flyin a ship that was fitted with more than that... that was good business for him and good decision for me. In order to be relatively coold regarding this kind of events the key is "ISK". If you have little and get ransomed/destroyed u get mad. If u have a lot and have "incidents" in your career, you just try to learn from those 'incidents'. I don't thank lofty (I even will eventually try to get my money back in a way or another) but well. I'm pragmatic .. he outsmarted me / or I was too little informed about rules / too confident about my own power... We are all masochists because we pay monthly fees and learn how to enjoy giving and receiving pain. Eventually, we will all learn pain is fun. Killers give pain to non-killers, non-killers give pain to killers through expensive T2 prices. Remember, only the paranoid survives. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Gariuys Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:28:00 - [31] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 31/07/2006 09:24:03 Originally by: zerb'liar and TBH, I'm not a masochist. I paid the price he asked (to be precise 127 millions) because I was flyin a ship that was fitted with more than that... that was good business for him and good decision for me. In order to be relatively coold regarding this kind of events the key is "ISK". If you have little and get ransomed/destroyed u get mad. If u have a lot and have "incidents" in your career, you just try to learn from those 'incidents'. I don't thank lofty (I even will eventually try to get my money back in a way or another) but well. I'm pragmatic .. he outsmarted me / or I was too little informed about rules / too confident about my own power... We are all masochists because we pay monthly fees and learn how to enjoy giving and receiving pain. Eventually, we will all learn pain is fun. Killers give pain to non-killers, non-killers give pain to killers through expensive T2 prices. Remember, only the paranoid survives. Embrace the pain... for only then will you ehm.... feel really ****ty cause it HURTS!!!! mommy it hurts.
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:30:00 - [32] Yes ... that is how it goes... Pirates break ships / got shot / use ammo => it creates the economic animation we all need to sell anything on the market and maintain the prices (or raise them) => get our money back...

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:37:00 - [33] Q: When aggressed, does the 15 min timer start? Like it does if an NPC engages, even if you don't return fire. Which in return means that if the timer does not start, he starts shooting at you and you simply quit the gang - the aggressor gets concordokken? EVE-Files \| EVE-Search \| Monitor this Thread

Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:41:00 - [34] Erm, no, that was not a war/aggro timer. That was a gang operation timer, which is 30 seconds. You cant jump or dock for 30 seconds after completing any gang operation - that includes joining or leaving a gang, resigning leadership, etc etc. The fact that you left the gang in-warp and tried to dock was what killed you. Also the fact that you didnt insta probably didnt help, as you may have been able to tank out the gang op period if you'd been on top of the station to dock afterwards. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:44:00 - [35] Originally by: Testy Mctest Erm, no, that was not a war/aggro timer. That was a gang operation timer, which is 30 seconds. You cant jump or dock for 30 seconds after completing any gang operation - that includes joining or leaving a gang, resigning leadership, etc etc. The fact that you left the gang in-warp and tried to dock was what killed you. Also the fact that you didnt insta probably didnt help, as you may have been able to tank out the gang op period if you'd been on top of the station to dock afterwards. My own reaction would have been to leave the gang in warp too... I think lofty gets alot of kills this way. People think its safe to just leave the gang if there is trouble. Seems its not that easy. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:50:00 - [36] the timer starts something like 30 secs after joining the gang... and is active for 15 minutes. It shows the same "countdown agression" as when u kill a faction ship in a mission.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:51:00 - [37] KB ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:52:00 - [38] Almost nobody seems to know exacly how the flagging system works in all situations... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:53:00 - [39] Originally by: Jim McGregor Almost nobody seems to know exacly how the flagging system works in all situations... When in doubt, assume it is 15 minutes plus another 5 minutes for server/client latency. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Mona Lou	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:53:00 - [40] Lofty is doing that in Ours for quite a long time already. Poor noobs there, I think they wont get much help thanks to his "tactic".
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:55:00 - [41] and I can tell u that the key here is the ability of lofty to jump on your heels to the right location (would I have jumped to another location than original station I wouldn't have been glued). The second thing is that the only way to survive lofty's agression is be flying a domi with a lot / lot / lot of cap and an equivalent setup in terms of NOSFERATU in order not to run out of cap and be able to tank forever. I will buy myself a DOMI .. brutix class ships (even tech II) are outpowered in 1vs1 versus a BS fitted to drain power and if the said BS comes under 30 km range.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:57:00 - [42] Domi is a solopwnmobile in this patch. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:58:00 - [43] Edited by: zerb''liar on 31/07/2006 09:59:24 .
Tachy	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:58:00 - [44] Originally by: zerb'liar and I can tell u that the key here is the ability of lofty to jump on your heels to the right location (would I have jumped to another location than original station I wouldn't have been glued). The second thing is that the only way to survive lofty's agression is be flying a domi with a lot / lot / lot of cap and an equivalent setup in terms of NOSFERATU in order not to run out of cap and be able to tank forever. I will buy myself a DOMI .. brutix class ships (even tech II) are outpowered in 1vs1 versus a BS fitted to drain power and if the said BS comes under 30 km range. Untrue. When he highlights you before you warp out, there's a vector pointing towards your warp destination. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Domi is a solopwnmobile in this patch. What do u mean by that ?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 10:01:00 - [46] Originally by: zerb'liar Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Domi is a solopwnmobile in this patch. What do u mean by that ? One very sick and hard to kill ship. Alone, it can kill a gang of hostiles if lucky. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 10:03:00 - [47] Stupid game mechanisms like nos and ecm are making Domi almost unbeatable. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Asnar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.31 10:05:00 - [48] Originally by: Jim McGregor Almost nobody seems to know exacly how the flagging system works in all situations... Yeah it's a spot complicated. And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.07.31 10:45:00 - [49] lets fix flagging by making everything 0.0. problem solved but you know what i really hate?
Captain Thunk Explode. Now. Please.	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:38:00 - [50] Edited by: Captain Thunk on 31/07/2006 11:38:56 I don't see how using an alt to setup a fake war can be considered a legitimate use of game mechanics. When used this way CONCORD end up protecting the aggressors not the victims. Unfortunately we're seeing more and more of this 'no risk for maximum reward'* strategy, this isn't good for new players and it's not good for the evolution of the game. I agree that nowhere should be safe, but as indicated in this thread there are very few people who know the full ins and outs of can flagging and war rules. while the victims get the right to fight back, in each and every instance lofty or the instigator gets to choose his victim - if by chance he does lose thats just his misjudgement, unlike in low sec no-one can come to the victims aid without being concorded. It's quite clear this is not what CCP intended when they introduced war rules and the situation or being trapped by a fake war is quite absurd. CAPTAIN THUNK If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.*
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 11:51:00 - [51] Overall and having some experience on different uses of game mechanism to "steal" from the innocent, the answers you generally get from CCP is the following : if, in the game, there is a way to prevent this usage (in this case the information that the guy you gang with is at war with someone - imbedded in the gang message warning), then CCP doesn't consider this as an abuse. Only issue I see is that this information is somewhat "insufficiently advertised" as the message looks like a normal gang window message. In order to protect the "noobs" and allow less "paranoia" there should be a first window saying like "the party you are about to join is at war with xxxx" do u want to proceed ? and then get the gang window. Would that be considered as a valid enhancement request ? (it goes in the good way : i.e. helping new players integrate eve and developping inter-player collaboration). Waiting for CCP feedback I do agree upon the fact that I think this technique is "border line".
Captain Thunk Explode. Now. Please.	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:02:00 - [52] I don't see why being in a gang with someone at war should make you vulnerable at all, to my mind this is a relic from an age long before my time and would be better removed entirely. Ultimately I don't think it matters, I was trying to say earlier that more and more people are stopping actually playing the game and looking harder at how to exploit the rules to garner them risk free combat or ISK. It's advisable not to have any contact at all with people you don't know, chances are they've got some lame plan in mind if they are convo'ing you or asking for help in local - which for a MMO game is the beginning of the end if left unchecked. The fact Lofty is so vocal of his risk free rewards pretty much sums the situation up for me. CAPTAIN THUNK If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.
Asnar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:15:00 - [53] Originally by: Captain Thunk I don't see why being in a gang with someone at war should make you vulnerable at all, to my mind this is a relic from an age long before my time and would be better removed entirely. Ultimately I don't think it matters, I was trying to say earlier that more and more people are stopping actually playing the game and looking harder at how to exploit the rules to garner them risk free combat or ISK. It's advisable not to have any contact at all with people you don't know, chances are they've got some lame plan in mind if they are convo'ing you or asking for help in local - which for a MMO game is the beginning of the end if left unchecked. The fact Lofty is so vocal of his risk free rewards pretty much sums the situation up for me. CAPTAIN THUNK It was made that way cause of gangs with mixed war/non war targets causing a lot of problems... it's much better this way. And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:17:00 - [54] regarding the kind of behavior one must have in order to avoid trouble : you are right BUT, I'm playing a MMO rather than a "network free" game in order to have some kinds of interactions whith others. CCP should try to act in order to maintain this interaction. Sometimes things should be done not to frustrate players due to the long learning curve (been playing for 2 years and i'm still learning - which is good). Once again. What I regret is the fact that there is a risk that people don't help newcommers due to risks such as this story. This is bad for the game because the "lawfully" aligned dudes will suffer from this somewhat favorizing the development of the evil side ... If CCP could give a look at my request ... and give a status .. that would be a little change for something valuable for all (I think) What do you guys think (about the 2 steps gang phase) ?
Asnar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:20:00 - [55] Why? How many legit newbies will have a ongoing war???? That's right... NONE don't help people with a active war, unless you know who the war is against, and there's no danger... OR accept the danger. And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area
Captain Thunk Explode. Now. Please.	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:21:00 - [56] Originally by: Asnar It was made that way cause of gangs with mixed war/non war targets causing a lot of problems... it's much better this way. Odd how the clear label of the red star in overview isn't a good enough game mechanic resulting in these absurd situations CAPTAIN THUNK If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.
nahtoh Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:28:00 - [57] Make it that the non waring party gets first shot in? Instead of the waring party? Or would that break things even more? ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Captain Thunk Explode. Now. Please.	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:30:00 - [58] My advice is that lofty and his ilk should get more alts in with T1 support cruisers as they do not aggress when transferring shields/armour/energy. He can then tank absolutely anything 1vs1 and probably most small fleets. People on WoW forums can then point and laugh at Eve for the absurd and stupid rules that we endure in our quest for maximum reward without ever taking any risk. CAPTAIN THUNK If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:31:00 - [59] Originally by: Asnar Why? How many legit newbies will have a ongoing war???? That's right... NONE don't help people with a active war, unless you know who the war is against, and there's no danger... OR accept the danger. What I say is that very few people (I personally didn't) know that the gang window does have an information about this war thing. Even fewer people would know that ganging with a guy at war would expose you to being considered as a valid target by the oppsoing party. Would one be fully knowledgeable about risks you can be sure that no foolish decisions would be taken. And this is said by long time players. Just imagine the level of knowledge of new players... What you say does reinforce my feeling that the information is just not clear enough. But If I'm the only one to think that, then I'm wrong. And if I'm wrong, I'm not legitimate to ask CCP a modification. C'mon what do new players think, let's go for a poll : 1 / Did you know that entering a gang would make you a legitimate (i.e. no CONCORD sanctions) target for corps being at war with the other gang member ? 2 / Did you know that the gang window contains some information about parties being at war with your potential gang partner ? Thanks for feedback
Asnar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:33:00 - [60] REad the gang window, it has all the info in very clear and short english for all to read. IT leaves absolutely no doubts regarding the situation at hand.... you do have to read it though. And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:38:00 - [61] TBH I've never seen a gang window containing some parties at war (I should have seen this one but I didn't). Pls tell me : do you have to scroll down in the window to see that info or is it on top ?
Asnar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:38:00 - [62] Originally by: Captain Thunk My advice is that lofty and his ilk should get more alts in with T1 support cruisers as they do not aggress when transferring shields/armour/energy. He can then tank absolutely anything 1vs1 and probably most small fleets. People on WoW forums can then point and laugh at Eve for the absurd and stupid rules that we endure in our quest for maximum reward without ever taking any risk. CAPTAIN THUNK What are you on about? You can take those support cruisers out, they'll be flagged. Was one of those other things that caused problems. And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area
Asnar Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:41:00 - [63] Originally by: zerb'liar TBH I've never seen a gang window containing some parties at war (I should have seen this one but I didn't). Pls tell me : do you have to scroll down in the window to see that info or is it on top ? God don't remember what it says exactly but it's a very small text, no scrolling needed. ( check if you have it set on do not show in options ) And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area
Captain Thunk Explode. Now. Please.	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:42:00 - [64] Edited by: Captain Thunk on 31/07/2006 12:42:34 Originally by: Asnar Originally by: Captain Thunk My advice is that lofty and his ilk should get more alts in with T1 support cruisers as they do not aggress when transferring shields/armour/energy. He can then tank absolutely anything 1vs1 and probably most small fleets. People on WoW forums can then point and laugh at Eve for the absurd and stupid rules that we endure in our quest for maximum reward without ever taking any risk. CAPTAIN THUNK What are you on about? You can take those support cruisers out, they'll be flagged. Was one of those other things that caused problems. Not if they're in NPC/non-warring corps and out of gang. They can transfer shields/armour/energy it doesn't flag. If you try to shoot them CONCORD turn up and set you straight on the rules of the game. CAPTAIN THUNK If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:44:00 - [65] Thanks Asnar. I have learned the hard way. But I have learned. "The longest in eternity is when one you are close from the end" :)
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:57:00 - [66] Originally by: Captain Thunk Edited by: Captain Thunk on 31/07/2006 12:42:34 Originally by: Asnar Originally by: Captain Thunk My advice is that lofty and his ilk should get more alts in with T1 support cruisers as they do not aggress when transferring shields/armour/energy. He can then tank absolutely anything 1vs1 and probably most small fleets. People on WoW forums can then point and laugh at Eve for the absurd and stupid rules that we endure in our quest for maximum reward without ever taking any risk. CAPTAIN THUNK What are you on about? You can take those support cruisers out, they'll be flagged. Was one of those other things that caused problems. Not if they're in NPC/non-warring corps and out of gang. They can transfer shields/armour/energy it doesn't flag. If you try to shoot them CONCORD turn up and set you straight on the rules of the game. CAPTAIN THUNK Can anyone confirm that in order to completely cover this subject ?
Jillius Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 13:28:00 - [67] Edited by: Jillius on 31/07/2006 13:35:33 Edited by: Jillius on 31/07/2006 13:28:57 I dont know if Lofty 29 didt this to me (have to check the killmail) but I lost a Brutix in Ours by the same cheap tactic. The funny thing was that later on I help that player with a level 3 mission. When the mission was over I quited the gang and he got flagged for getting stuff from my can. He docked and waited for the agro to go away. harharhar.
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 13:40:00 - [68] Bottom line : ppl with less than BS class vessels flying in Oursulaert : beware of lofty29. The guy is smart but attacks when he knows that he is superior. If you want to attack him : Take a DOMI with a 2 years old player. Fit highs with NOS and or / neutralizer, meds with webber - ECM - and cap rechargers, lows with armor rep, warp scrams. And good luck... it will be a long battle (if anyone manages to win .. at all)
Captain Thunk Explode. Now. Please.	Posted - 2006.07.31 13:46:00 - [69] He freely admits he'd never take on such a player - if I recall correctly he said in a previous thread he aims generally for people between oct 2005 - mar 2006 as these yield good loot for no risk to his ship - he may have upped the ante by a few months since. As a result no-one can attack him without taking on CONCORD as well - odd how he's able to use them for his own protection eh? With the support cruisers I mentioned he should be able to take on anyone. I should add that this is pretty common and not just restricted to Lofty, there are people doing this in every major agent hub. CAPTAIN THUNK If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team.
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 13:56:00 - [70] Originally by: Jillius Edited by: Jillius on 31/07/2006 13:35:33 Edited by: Jillius on 31/07/2006 13:28:57 I dont know if Lofty 29 didt this to me (have to check the killmail) but I lost a Brutix in Ours by the same cheap tactic. The funny thing was that later on I help that player with a level 3 mission. When the mission was over I quited the gang and he got flagged for getting stuff from my can. He docked and waited for the agro to go away. harharhar. I don't understand why he would need any help in a L3. I can do all L3s in a Thorax if I wish ....(and yet he overpowered me easily in a modded EOS). That would mean he has no/little skills in gunnery or something like that. Interesting but only an assumption.
Jillius Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 14:32:00 - [71] Ill check the kill mail when im at home because im not sure if it was Lofty.
zibelthurdos	Posted - 2006.07.31 14:42:00 - [72] Edited by: zibelthurdos on 31/07/2006 14:42:20 i haven't seen this response so i'm gonna add it read the gang invite. if the corp is not at war it will simply say "join gang" right at the top in big bold letters if they are at war it will say "join warring gang"
Jillius Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 15:39:00 - [73] It was Antaris Xenal who shoot me.
Miserable Girl	Posted - 2006.07.31 15:39:00 - [74] Edited by: Miserable Girl on 31/07/2006 15:39:59 This is my alt :)
Kitchie	Posted - 2006.07.31 15:41:00 - [75] I've only been playing a couple of months and I get these invites all the time. I make most of my money hauling and spend half my time in and around Jita. There's a character there who always invites you in Kisogo, Inevitability. The first time I saw the "Join Gang at War" invite, I thought "What's this?" so I read it and without scrolling or anything, it told me I would be vulnerable to attack by the corp that was at war with Inevitability. I didn't join.... The info is there, if you read it......
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.07.31 16:14:00 - [76] Originally by: zerb'liar and TBH, I'm not a masochist. I paid the price he asked (to be precise 127 millions) because I was flyin a ship that was fitted with more than that... that was good business for him and good decision for me. In order to be relatively coold regarding this kind of events the key is "ISK". If you have little and get ransomed/destroyed u get mad. If u have a lot and have "incidents" in your career, you just try to learn from those 'incidents'. I don't thank lofty (I even will eventually try to get my money back in a way or another) but well. I'm pragmatic .. he outsmarted me / or I was too little informed about rules / too confident about my own power... Forgive me, but after the insurance pay out, what is your EOS worth in ISK? Because IMHO you made a huge mistake in paying him. And now, because it worked, he'll keep doing it. As a matter of honor you should have agreed to pay, and then self destructed. He gets very little when he destroys a ship, he gets much much more when he ransoms you people. Lofty is a cheap *****. But if you empire dwellers stop paying him, he will stop doing it. He only does this because it works so very well. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Avon Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 16:17:00 - [77] Not paying ransoms is why we have so many gankers, and so few 'old school' pirates. All this "don't pay, you just encourage them" bravado is just that. No point cutting off your own nose to spite your face. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Burnhard Brutor	Posted - 2006.07.31 16:20:00 - [78] I believe lofty should have his account banned just for spreading so much bad karma around the Eve universe. Either that or go to Syndicate and see how long he lasts against some real "pirates". I bet he won't be doing much bragging then.
000Hunter000 Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 16:29:00 - [79] and now this is out, i'm expecting to see more aholes use the same tactic, which means nobody will help n00bs anymore. Imo, i think this should be a made a bannable exploit, but thats just me. Banner will be updated shortly
Brazero Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.31 16:44:00 - [80] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 31/07/2006 09:12:17 Originally by: zerb'liar and I blame no one but meself on that situation : if there is a way to know, that is not an exploit... that is the game... EvE is a masochistic place for sadistic players with malevolent desires. To quote Peter Sellers: I dont understand it, but I like it
Justina Born	Posted - 2006.07.31 17:02:00 - [81] Basically. He makes an alt corp and the alt corp war decs, he then gets you to gang with the alt corp which of course, being at war with him, makes your a target. So.. yeah, lame tactic indeed.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.07.31 17:12:00 - [82] All we can hope is that they update that window to flash red or something. Lofty will still get a few targets but not as many. I was running some DED's the other day with a guy I have talked to for a couple of days, he invited me to gang and I pressed okay as I read "warring with..." Just to be safe I warped to a SS and then quit the gang. It turned out there was no danger, but you never know. Thing that **es me off, no one has kill rights on lofty cause he's actually got a brain on him, no one can have their vengance. He's already stated that if anyone declares war on his little ant corp, that he's gonna run and hide. The guy has never done anything to me, but from what I hear he's a ***** coward, I'll take him on anytime with my other char, but he wouldn't accept the offer. Candy ass.
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 17:13:00 - [83] Answer to why did I pay (i) insurance for tech II ships is, at best, lousy. (ii) Insurance for modules doesn't exist (and that is an issue). (iii) I would have lost more than I gave And I do agree upon the fact that in that situation I prefer "good old pirating/ransom/respect their word" rather than "gankers". All : This post demonstrated several things : (i) I didn't pay attention to the message which was adressed to me in the gang window (CCP gives us all the way to prevent that from happening if u pay attention) (ii) I made several mistakes (ii - a) I warped to 40 km from unknown gang member (too close) (ii - b) I warped to 15 km from station instead of using my insta BM (lack of preparation) (ii -c) I was in an EOS
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.07.31 17:14:00 - [84] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: zerb'liar So basically the fact that the guy you join is at war with someone appears in the gang warning message before accepting to enter the gang ? Well, message says that someone COULD be at war with the guy I think. No it lists any and all groups the person's corp is at war with.
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.07.31 17:14:00 - [85] Originally by: Avon Not paying ransoms is why we have so many gankers, and so few 'old school' pirates. All this "don't pay, you just encourage them" bravado is just that. No point cutting off your own nose to spite your face. It's not bravado. As I have and will continue to fight to the death, rather than pay any ransom. And if you don't see the point in it, you are foolish beyond words. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.07.31 17:19:00 - [86] Originally by: zerb'liar Answer to why did I pay (i) insurance for tech II ships is, at best, lousy. (ii) Insurance for modules doesn't exist (and that is an issue). (iii) I would have lost more than I gave And I do agree upon the fact that in that situation I prefer "good old pirating/ransom/respect their word" rather than "gankers". All : This post demonstrated several things : (i) I didn't pay attention to the message which was adressed to me in the gang window (CCP gives us all the way to prevent that from happening if u pay attention) (ii) I made several mistakes (ii - a) I warped to 40 km from unknown gang member (too close) (ii - b) I warped to 15 km from station instead of using my insta BM (lack of preparation) (ii -c) I was in an EOS Your choice of course. I prefer to go out with my guns hot, even if it costs me more to lose the ship and mods than it would cost to pay the pirate. The way I see it. I lose ships alot, so the cost to replace them is already in my budget. Paying off pirates to save money is not in my budget. And at the end of the day, my corpse and a handfull of modules isn't going to cover the pirate lifestyle. Where as a couple of 100m+ payoffs will. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 17:26:00 - [87] Edited by: zerb''liar on 31/07/2006 17:34:22 mmmm
zerb'liar	Posted - 2006.07.31 17:33:00 - [88] In order to be constructive and helpfull here is what i'll do tonite : fit a passive targeter on and a ship scanner... I will post lofty29 setup tomorrow in order for all to be able to imagine counter measures (only important thing to resist the dude is ability to regen cap faster than he is able to suck it)
Slave 775 Taiaha Industries	Posted - 2006.07.31 17:44:00 - [89] For your info thats the Message Popup you receive: JOIN WARRING GANG ? XXXX XXXXX wants you to join their gang, do you accept? This gang has members that are at war with the corporation XXXXXX XXXXXXXX. Confirming that you will join this gang will make you vulnerable to this corporation, however they will not be vulnerable to you unless they decide to attack you. Are you sure you want to join this gang? NOTE: Attacking members of your gang is not a CONCORD sanctioned activity and may result in security status loss and a police response. You cant attack him until he attacks you, so he goes first with his ECM and NOS. So i bet you wont win this one, because he wont attack you if he thinks he will lose You got warned so i think its legit, because it was YOU who accepted the invitation, without bothering to read the popup. I dont think you get a warning from the usual Pirates in EVE.
Eadoin Remontoire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 17:47:00 - [90] I find it amusing that most of us know of Lofty's habitual writing of one-sentence quips to the first page of topics for every forum. I find it doubly amusing he has not posted anything to this topic yet.

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