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Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:09:00 - [1] So we have some lovely new tier 3 bs's and the dev's are working hard on trying to sort out all relevant stats/bonus's on each of them. I`m in the process of training up minmatar atm and was thinking that what use are the min bs's speed bonuses when the hyperion will take that away completely. I'm Gallente spec'd so i can always fly it I suppose, but I was really looking forward to flying a tempest. So atm the tempest does less damage than a blastermega but has a speed advantage to try and keep range with its autocannons (cool). But what happens if it was to fight a hyperion? Should the tempest have some changes with the upcoming changes to EW and the loss of its niche in speed? P.s Maelstorm need 7 med slots
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:13:00 - [2] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 02/08/2006 11:13:53 The Tempest is still faster and lighter than a Hyperion. The Tempest still has a smaller sig. The Tempest still has autocannons and the Hyperion has blasters. Big difference in usage and setup there. Edit: Originally by: Kaleeb P.s Maelstorm need 7 med slots qft Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:16:00 - [3] Originally by: Testy Mctest The Tempest is still faster and lighter than a Hyperion. The Tempest still has a smaller sig. The Tempest still has autocannons and the Hyperion has blasters. Big difference in usage and setup there. I thought the hyperion was going to be the fastest? Smaller sig doesnt make alot of difference when your webbed and if they hyperion has 8 turrets and a tempest has 6 the dps difference will be scary especially if the whiners get a 2nd dmg bonus for it.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Kaleeb Should the tempest have some changes with the upcoming changes to EW and the loss of its niche in speed? Yes. The multispec is the only thing that keeps it alive vs a Megathron, let alone the blaster monster the Hyperion is going to become. Combine that with a possible NOS nerf and we're left with a ship that can defeat amarr battleships and that's about it. For starters, remove the speed penalty from Hail. Why can gallente use their most damaging ammo while charging in a full speed yet Minmatar can't? TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:31:00 - [5] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 11:32:13 Originally by: Sarmaul For starters, remove the speed penalty from Hail. Why can gallente use their most damaging ammo while charging in a full speed yet Minmatar can't? Minmatar are supposed to keep range, but as we all know, nothing will be able to keep Hyperion at range. Base speed is only 10 less than Tempest and last i checked, the mass was pretty similar too. And now Tux is experimenting with mass reduction bonuses as well for the Hyperion. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 02/08/2006 11:13:53 The Tempest is still faster and lighter than a Hyperion. The Megathron is exactly as agile as the Tempest (same weight and agility factor). All the new Tier 3 BS will probably retain default non-faction agility factors (1.55 IIRC), whereas the Hyperion is supposed to be ultimately lighter than the Megathron (and ergo the Tempest). Quote: The Tempest still has a smaller sig. 15% sig and speed advantage, versus a 37.5% tracking advantage. As far as tracking goes, the Megathron wins no matter how you twist and turn it. All that sig means effectively is the ability to evade Pulse/Beams a little bit more easily, and a 15% damage reduction against Tech1 torps. Together with our racial resist, that means we're great against really ineffective ships. How awesome is that? Quote: The Tempest still has autocannons and the Hyperion has blasters. Big difference in usage and setup there. Yeah, with the advent of Null and Ions, you can almost call Autocannons "really bad blasters". With the exception of some 20-30k useability in the case of T2 ACs. The only reason the AC tempest is still viable at all are two major imbalances - T2 ammo and ECM. Outside of that, the advantages are simply too slim to outweigh all the impediments (tiny and irrelevant speed/agility/sig bonus versus lower damage output, worse tank, bad cargohold and a small dronebay). It really needs a good fixing for all it's minor issues (as does the Typhoon still, tbh) - both Minmatar BS are conceptually sound, but fail on small things. If I had to be dreamy and make suggestions - Tempest : 660 cargo 97 500 000 mass max velocity 155 m/s powergrid 15650 Sensorstrength 20 Signature radius 290m Typhoon : dronebay 190m3 velocity 170 m/s mass 90 000 000 (dramatically the lightest BS around) powergrid 13500 Sensorstrength 19 Signature radius 280m Really just fringe benefits that Minmatar are already getting, but in way too small gobs at the moment particularly for BS. And of cargo space for sheer useability.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:46:00 - [7] You wont get extra speed for the Tempest and Typhoon since the Hyperion is specifically built do quickly get in range. Giving the minnie ships speed advantages would nullify the Hyperion advantage again. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Severa Crest Railgun Voodoo II	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Testicular Testes Tempest : 660 cargo 97 500 000 mass max velocity 155 m/s powergrid 15650 Sensorstrength 20 Signature radius 290m Typhoon : dronebay 190m3 velocity 170 m/s mass 90 000 000 (dramatically the lightest BS around) powergrid 13500 Sensorstrength 19 Signature radius 280m I think these stats could be a place to start. The % mass and speed difference between Matari ships and the other races ships is by far the smallest at the BS class size. The sig radius' changes you suggest might be a bit extreme though. The Matari combat ethos works well until you get to the BC and BS class - you cannot hit and run/skirmish in a big ass heavy ship.
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:52:00 - [9] Fly a Ferox.
Severa Crest Railgun Voodoo II	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 11:47:33 You wont get extra speed for the Tempest and Typhoon since the Hyperion is specifically built to quickly get in range. Giving the minnie ships speed advantages would nullify the Hyperion advantage again. There is no balance in 1 ship being able to catch and pwn every other ship. Some ships have advantages over others and will have a better chance at beating them. A high damage, short range boat should have trouble getting into range, if getting into range means that you will most likely win that fight. The difficulty with blasters is the balance between that difficulty of getting to optimal and the damage output once you get there.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:57:00 - [11] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 11:47:33 You wont get extra speed for the Tempest and Typhoon since the Hyperion is specifically built to quickly get in range. Giving the minnie ships speed advantages would nullify the Hyperion advantage again. The entire point of Minmatar ships is that they can use their speed advantage to keep the range and slowly takedown a target with poor dps @ range. Introducing a ship that goes faster and does more damage makes the speed & low damage ships redundant. If Gallente get Minmatatar's speed advantage, I want gallente's damage output. Fair? TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Severa Crest I think these stats could be a place to start. The % mass and speed difference between Matari ships and the other races ships is by far the smallest at the BS class size. The sig radius' changes you suggest might be a bit extreme though. The Matari combat ethos works well until you get to the BC and BS class - you cannot hit and run/skirmish in a big ass heavy ship. Sigradius at or above 300 is hardly relevant at all, except for being painted, webbed and ganked with Rage Torps. Other than that, it's a tracking penalty for BS turrets - which is necessary if we're intended to leverage our advantage without a tracking bonus. Alternatively, lowering the resolution of autocannons would be fine too. But 300 sig is really not all that unbalancing, and would actually make movement more interesting and relevant.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:12:00 - [13] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 11:47:33 You wont get extra speed for the Tempest and Typhoon since the Hyperion is specifically built to quickly get in range. Giving the minnie ships speed advantages would nullify the Hyperion advantage again. The entire point of Minmatar ships is that they can use their speed advantage to keep the range and slowly takedown a target with poor dps @ range. Introducing a ship that goes faster and does more damage makes the speed & low damage ships redundant. If Gallente get Minmatatar's speed advantage, I want gallente's damage output. Fair? You know I agree with you, but gallente got the ship the minmatar should have gotten. With the ecm and nos changes, I dont see how minmatar ships can compete without some changes to how they work. But i dont see Tuxford adding more speed to them, because he is obviously creating the Hyperion for that role. Maybe some other changes will come, like more dps, I dont know. It will be difficult for Tuxford to balance it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:14:00 - [14] There are 2 ways to balance blasterships 1) Make it hard for them to get into range, but let them do insane damage when there 2) Make it easy for them to get into range, but let them do poor damage when there. Pick one. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Sarmaul There are 2 ways to balance blasterships 1) Make it hard for them to get into range, but let them do insane damage when there 2) Make it easy for them to get into range, but let them do poor damage when there. Pick one. Hyperion will do both. So I guess its not balanced. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:26:00 - [16] can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n ****, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest....
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:29:00 - [17] Originally by: welsh wizard Fly a Ferox. F* O /me grumbles
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:31:00 - [18] Originally by: Deathbarrage can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n ****, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest.... I`m not asking that, i`m asking for the tempest to have a role which is pretty much removed now. The fact you think tier 3 should pwn tier 2 shows you dont really know that they arent supposed to replace existing bs but give different options/roles. (Except for the rokh which is soo powerful its unreal)
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:32:00 - [19] given t2 ammo, tempest has NO advantage when covering the 20km disruptor range. t2 ions with long range blaster ammo already cover the range and outdamage the tempest in almost all the range except 2-3 km at the end. it is impossible for a bs to try keeping in such a narrow fighting range. while the hyperion lacks the tracking bonus of the mega, it may be possible for tempest to out-manouver it, however it will need a serios agility boost to accomplish that. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Deathbarrage can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n ****, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest.... The Typhoon is a close-range missile/ac/drone ship. The Tempest is both a close-range autocannon ship and Minmatar's only fleet ship. With the Maelstrom looking like it's going to be a dedicated artillery platform, that leaves the Tempest with autocannons. Minmatar are supposed to use their speed to keep out of range while slowly chipping away and the enemy. If they fail at doing this (i.e. the ship gets too close) they generally die. If a blastership is introduced that can not only go faster than the Tempest but out-damages it by a hell of a lot, where is the balance? The Tempest will die every single time as it won't be able to ever keep the distance nor will it be able to do more damage? And just to finish it off, the high-damage autocannon ammo has a speed penalty, so you can't even attempt to run away while doing good DPS as your speed gets nerfed and the blastership will be in optimal within seconds. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:38:00 - [21] I was just making a point that the ships are still different in usage, technically. Maybe I'm too resigned to our benefits being extremely 'fringe', now I think about it. Speed difference, sig difference, etc etc, really are just marginal benefits. How they make up for all of our other failings, I don't know. I've said this once before, and now it's had to be pointed out to me. So yeah, I agree. Maybe I've become complacent in my whining. Maybe I don't whine enough. NO MORE I SAY. My fury has been renewed :P Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Deathbarrage can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n ****, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest.... I`m not asking that, i`m asking for the tempest to have a role which is pretty much removed now. The fact you think tier 3 should pwn tier 2 shows you dont really know that they arent supposed to replace existing bs but give different options/roles. (Except for the rokh which is soo powerful its unreal) I'm not saying that all tier 3 should pwn tier 2, I'm saying that the hyperion will be so incredibly restricted to one purpose that it's no more then fair imo that the hyperion will be the king of the hill in that area
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:40:00 - [23] Edited by: Sarmaul on 02/08/2006 12:40:21 Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Deathbarrage can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n **, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest.... I`m not asking that, i`m asking for the tempest to have a role which is pretty much removed now. The fact you think tier 3 should pwn tier 2 shows you dont really know that they arent supposed to replace existing bs but give different options/roles. (Except for the rokh which is soo powerful its unreal) I'm not saying that all tier 3 should pwn tier 2, I'm saying that the hyperion will be so incredibly restricted to one purpose that it's no more then fair imo that the hyperion will be the king of the hill in that area Wrong again. Everyship should be countered somehow. The counter to ac ships is to get into range. The counter to blasterships is to get out of range. It's really not that hard to work out. Originally by:** Testy Mctest Maybe I've become complacent in my whining. Maybe I don't whine enough. NO MORE I SAY. My fury has been renewed :P Finally! TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:49:00 - [24] Caldari gets a fantastic wtfpwnage 8 turret, 7 med slot railboat with a range bonus. Gallente gets a really fast, agile blasterboat with basicly no weeknesses. Amarr gets a fantastic ganker that will be able to dish out insane dps at range. Minmatar gets a slow shield tanked artillery boat with no useful bonuses for its role. Thats how I see it anyway. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:54:00 - [25] tempest with another turret hardpoint and possibly extra mid and 1 less low? Perhaps a touch more agility?
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Sarmaul If Gallente get Minmatatar's speed advantage, I want gallente's damage output. QFT ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 02/08/2006 12:40:21 Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Deathbarrage can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n **, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest.... I`m not asking that, i`m asking for the tempest to have a role which is pretty much removed now. The fact you think tier 3 should pwn tier 2 shows you dont really know that they arent supposed to replace existing bs but give different options/roles. (Except for the rokh which is soo powerful its unreal) I'm not saying that all tier 3 should pwn tier 2, I'm saying that the hyperion will be so incredibly restricted to one purpose that it's no more then fair imo that the hyperion will be the king of the hill in that area Wrong again. Everyship should be countered somehow. The counter to ac ships is to get into range. The counter to blasterships is to get out of range. It's really not that hard to work out. Originally by:** Testy Mctest Maybe I've become complacent in my whining. Maybe I don't whine enough. NO MORE I SAY. My fury has been renewed :P Finally! yeah so if you wanna counter the hyperion get a medium range ship and gank it from afar, imo it's ok for it to pwn you if you're inside his blaster range... I mean we've tried the ''high dmg low speed'' thing on the megathron, obviously didn't work cuz you got ganked all the time
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:09:00 - [28] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2006 13:09:20 Originally by: Deathbarrage yeah so if you wanna counter the hyperion get a medium range ship and gank it from afar, imo it's ok for it to pwn you if you're inside his blaster range... I mean we've tried the ''high dmg low speed'' thing on the megathron, obviously didn't work cuz you got ganked all the time ok i'll say the obvious. 20km warp disruptor range = mid range useless. Blasters + Null vs Ac's + Barrage have equal DPS at 16500m before you take into account blasters better tracking or the Megas larger drone bay. Listen to the Amarr, the only valid point that I agree with them on is having the longest low range weapons that actually outrange the other short range combat modules such as 20km warp disruptor. I don't see why Gallente should get a easy ride into Blaster range. Caldari easy mode on. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:15:00 - [29] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2006 13:09:20 Originally by: Deathbarrage yeah so if you wanna counter the hyperion get a medium range ship and gank it from afar, imo it's ok for it to pwn you if you're inside his blaster range... I mean we've tried the ''high dmg low speed'' thing on the megathron, obviously didn't work cuz you got ganked all the time ok i'll say the obvious. 20km warp disruptor range = mid range useless. Blasters + Null vs Ac's + Barrage have equal DPS at 16500m before you take into account blasters better tracking or the Megas larger drone bay. Listen to the Amarr, the only valid point that I agree with them on is having the longest low range weapons that actually outrange the other short range combat modules such as 20km warp disruptor. I don't see why Gallente should get a easy ride into Blaster range. Caldari easy mode on. well what you guys want is to make the hyperion into something that can't kill a tempest, how's that fair?
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2006 13:09:20 Originally by: Deathbarrage yeah so if you wanna counter the hyperion get a medium range ship and gank it from afar, imo it's ok for it to pwn you if you're inside his blaster range... I mean we've tried the ''high dmg low speed'' thing on the megathron, obviously didn't work cuz you got ganked all the time ok i'll say the obvious. 20km warp disruptor range = mid range useless. Blasters + Null vs Ac's + Barrage have equal DPS at 16500m before you take into account blasters better tracking or the Megas larger drone bay. Listen to the Amarr, the only valid point that I agree with them on is having the longest low range weapons that actually outrange the other short range combat modules such as 20km warp disruptor. I don't see why Gallente should get a easy ride into Blaster range. Caldari easy mode on. well what you guys want is to make the hyperion into something that can't kill a tempest, how's that fair? You are really starting to irritate me now. Vaga/Muninn vs Deimos: Minmatar wins if they keep the range, Gallente win if the get inside range Rupture vs Thorax: Same Wolf vs Enyo: Same Cyclone vs Brutix: Same Tempest vs Megathron: Same Blaster ships are supposed to be difficult to get into range - the payoff being that you BBQ everything once you are in there. To counter a blastership you need enough speed to stay at range. Remove that, and there is no counter for blasterships, creating inbalance. Is it really that hard to understand? If a blastership lands right on top of me I fully expect to die and will never complain. When a situation is introduced that no matter what the starting range is I will die, I will ***** and moan until it is sorted as it isn't balanced. Got it yet? TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -

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