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Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:09:00 - [1] So we have some lovely new tier 3 bs's and the dev's are working hard on trying to sort out all relevant stats/bonus's on each of them. I`m in the process of training up minmatar atm and was thinking that what use are the min bs's speed bonuses when the hyperion will take that away completely. I'm Gallente spec'd so i can always fly it I suppose, but I was really looking forward to flying a tempest. So atm the tempest does less damage than a blastermega but has a speed advantage to try and keep range with its autocannons (cool). But what happens if it was to fight a hyperion? Should the tempest have some changes with the upcoming changes to EW and the loss of its niche in speed? P.s Maelstorm need 7 med slots
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:13:00 - [2] Edited by: Testy Mctest on 02/08/2006 11:13:53 The Tempest is still faster and lighter than a Hyperion. The Tempest still has a smaller sig. The Tempest still has autocannons and the Hyperion has blasters. Big difference in usage and setup there. Edit: Originally by: Kaleeb P.s Maelstorm need 7 med slots qft Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:16:00 - [3] Originally by: Testy Mctest The Tempest is still faster and lighter than a Hyperion. The Tempest still has a smaller sig. The Tempest still has autocannons and the Hyperion has blasters. Big difference in usage and setup there. I thought the hyperion was going to be the fastest? Smaller sig doesnt make alot of difference when your webbed and if they hyperion has 8 turrets and a tempest has 6 the dps difference will be scary especially if the whiners get a 2nd dmg bonus for it.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Kaleeb Should the tempest have some changes with the upcoming changes to EW and the loss of its niche in speed? Yes. The multispec is the only thing that keeps it alive vs a Megathron, let alone the blaster monster the Hyperion is going to become. Combine that with a possible NOS nerf and we're left with a ship that can defeat amarr battleships and that's about it. For starters, remove the speed penalty from Hail. Why can gallente use their most damaging ammo while charging in a full speed yet Minmatar can't? TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:31:00 - [5] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 11:32:13 Originally by: Sarmaul For starters, remove the speed penalty from Hail. Why can gallente use their most damaging ammo while charging in a full speed yet Minmatar can't? Minmatar are supposed to keep range, but as we all know, nothing will be able to keep Hyperion at range. Base speed is only 10 less than Tempest and last i checked, the mass was pretty similar too. And now Tux is experimenting with mass reduction bonuses as well for the Hyperion. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 02/08/2006 11:13:53 The Tempest is still faster and lighter than a Hyperion. The Megathron is exactly as agile as the Tempest (same weight and agility factor). All the new Tier 3 BS will probably retain default non-faction agility factors (1.55 IIRC), whereas the Hyperion is supposed to be ultimately lighter than the Megathron (and ergo the Tempest). Quote: The Tempest still has a smaller sig. 15% sig and speed advantage, versus a 37.5% tracking advantage. As far as tracking goes, the Megathron wins no matter how you twist and turn it. All that sig means effectively is the ability to evade Pulse/Beams a little bit more easily, and a 15% damage reduction against Tech1 torps. Together with our racial resist, that means we're great against really ineffective ships. How awesome is that? Quote: The Tempest still has autocannons and the Hyperion has blasters. Big difference in usage and setup there. Yeah, with the advent of Null and Ions, you can almost call Autocannons "really bad blasters". With the exception of some 20-30k useability in the case of T2 ACs. The only reason the AC tempest is still viable at all are two major imbalances - T2 ammo and ECM. Outside of that, the advantages are simply too slim to outweigh all the impediments (tiny and irrelevant speed/agility/sig bonus versus lower damage output, worse tank, bad cargohold and a small dronebay). It really needs a good fixing for all it's minor issues (as does the Typhoon still, tbh) - both Minmatar BS are conceptually sound, but fail on small things. If I had to be dreamy and make suggestions - Tempest : 660 cargo 97 500 000 mass max velocity 155 m/s powergrid 15650 Sensorstrength 20 Signature radius 290m Typhoon : dronebay 190m3 velocity 170 m/s mass 90 000 000 (dramatically the lightest BS around) powergrid 13500 Sensorstrength 19 Signature radius 280m Really just fringe benefits that Minmatar are already getting, but in way too small gobs at the moment particularly for BS. And of cargo space for sheer useability.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:46:00 - [7] You wont get extra speed for the Tempest and Typhoon since the Hyperion is specifically built do quickly get in range. Giving the minnie ships speed advantages would nullify the Hyperion advantage again. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Severa Crest Railgun Voodoo II	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Testicular Testes Tempest : 660 cargo 97 500 000 mass max velocity 155 m/s powergrid 15650 Sensorstrength 20 Signature radius 290m Typhoon : dronebay 190m3 velocity 170 m/s mass 90 000 000 (dramatically the lightest BS around) powergrid 13500 Sensorstrength 19 Signature radius 280m I think these stats could be a place to start. The % mass and speed difference between Matari ships and the other races ships is by far the smallest at the BS class size. The sig radius' changes you suggest might be a bit extreme though. The Matari combat ethos works well until you get to the BC and BS class - you cannot hit and run/skirmish in a big ass heavy ship.
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:52:00 - [9] Fly a Ferox.
Severa Crest Railgun Voodoo II	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 11:47:33 You wont get extra speed for the Tempest and Typhoon since the Hyperion is specifically built to quickly get in range. Giving the minnie ships speed advantages would nullify the Hyperion advantage again. There is no balance in 1 ship being able to catch and pwn every other ship. Some ships have advantages over others and will have a better chance at beating them. A high damage, short range boat should have trouble getting into range, if getting into range means that you will most likely win that fight. The difficulty with blasters is the balance between that difficulty of getting to optimal and the damage output once you get there.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 11:57:00 - [11] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 11:47:33 You wont get extra speed for the Tempest and Typhoon since the Hyperion is specifically built to quickly get in range. Giving the minnie ships speed advantages would nullify the Hyperion advantage again. The entire point of Minmatar ships is that they can use their speed advantage to keep the range and slowly takedown a target with poor dps @ range. Introducing a ship that goes faster and does more damage makes the speed & low damage ships redundant. If Gallente get Minmatatar's speed advantage, I want gallente's damage output. Fair? TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Severa Crest I think these stats could be a place to start. The % mass and speed difference between Matari ships and the other races ships is by far the smallest at the BS class size. The sig radius' changes you suggest might be a bit extreme though. The Matari combat ethos works well until you get to the BC and BS class - you cannot hit and run/skirmish in a big ass heavy ship. Sigradius at or above 300 is hardly relevant at all, except for being painted, webbed and ganked with Rage Torps. Other than that, it's a tracking penalty for BS turrets - which is necessary if we're intended to leverage our advantage without a tracking bonus. Alternatively, lowering the resolution of autocannons would be fine too. But 300 sig is really not all that unbalancing, and would actually make movement more interesting and relevant.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:12:00 - [13] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 11:47:33 You wont get extra speed for the Tempest and Typhoon since the Hyperion is specifically built to quickly get in range. Giving the minnie ships speed advantages would nullify the Hyperion advantage again. The entire point of Minmatar ships is that they can use their speed advantage to keep the range and slowly takedown a target with poor dps @ range. Introducing a ship that goes faster and does more damage makes the speed & low damage ships redundant. If Gallente get Minmatatar's speed advantage, I want gallente's damage output. Fair? You know I agree with you, but gallente got the ship the minmatar should have gotten. With the ecm and nos changes, I dont see how minmatar ships can compete without some changes to how they work. But i dont see Tuxford adding more speed to them, because he is obviously creating the Hyperion for that role. Maybe some other changes will come, like more dps, I dont know. It will be difficult for Tuxford to balance it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:14:00 - [14] There are 2 ways to balance blasterships 1) Make it hard for them to get into range, but let them do insane damage when there 2) Make it easy for them to get into range, but let them do poor damage when there. Pick one. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Sarmaul There are 2 ways to balance blasterships 1) Make it hard for them to get into range, but let them do insane damage when there 2) Make it easy for them to get into range, but let them do poor damage when there. Pick one. Hyperion will do both. So I guess its not balanced. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:26:00 - [16] can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n ****, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest....
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:29:00 - [17] Originally by: welsh wizard Fly a Ferox. F* O /me grumbles
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:31:00 - [18] Originally by: Deathbarrage can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n ****, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest.... I`m not asking that, i`m asking for the tempest to have a role which is pretty much removed now. The fact you think tier 3 should pwn tier 2 shows you dont really know that they arent supposed to replace existing bs but give different options/roles. (Except for the rokh which is soo powerful its unreal)
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:32:00 - [19] given t2 ammo, tempest has NO advantage when covering the 20km disruptor range. t2 ions with long range blaster ammo already cover the range and outdamage the tempest in almost all the range except 2-3 km at the end. it is impossible for a bs to try keeping in such a narrow fighting range. while the hyperion lacks the tracking bonus of the mega, it may be possible for tempest to out-manouver it, however it will need a serios agility boost to accomplish that. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Deathbarrage can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n ****, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest.... The Typhoon is a close-range missile/ac/drone ship. The Tempest is both a close-range autocannon ship and Minmatar's only fleet ship. With the Maelstrom looking like it's going to be a dedicated artillery platform, that leaves the Tempest with autocannons. Minmatar are supposed to use their speed to keep out of range while slowly chipping away and the enemy. If they fail at doing this (i.e. the ship gets too close) they generally die. If a blastership is introduced that can not only go faster than the Tempest but out-damages it by a hell of a lot, where is the balance? The Tempest will die every single time as it won't be able to ever keep the distance nor will it be able to do more damage? And just to finish it off, the high-damage autocannon ammo has a speed penalty, so you can't even attempt to run away while doing good DPS as your speed gets nerfed and the blastership will be in optimal within seconds. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:38:00 - [21] I was just making a point that the ships are still different in usage, technically. Maybe I'm too resigned to our benefits being extremely 'fringe', now I think about it. Speed difference, sig difference, etc etc, really are just marginal benefits. How they make up for all of our other failings, I don't know. I've said this once before, and now it's had to be pointed out to me. So yeah, I agree. Maybe I've become complacent in my whining. Maybe I don't whine enough. NO MORE I SAY. My fury has been renewed :P Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Deathbarrage can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n ****, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest.... I`m not asking that, i`m asking for the tempest to have a role which is pretty much removed now. The fact you think tier 3 should pwn tier 2 shows you dont really know that they arent supposed to replace existing bs but give different options/roles. (Except for the rokh which is soo powerful its unreal) I'm not saying that all tier 3 should pwn tier 2, I'm saying that the hyperion will be so incredibly restricted to one purpose that it's no more then fair imo that the hyperion will be the king of the hill in that area
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:40:00 - [23] Edited by: Sarmaul on 02/08/2006 12:40:21 Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Deathbarrage can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n **, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest.... I`m not asking that, i`m asking for the tempest to have a role which is pretty much removed now. The fact you think tier 3 should pwn tier 2 shows you dont really know that they arent supposed to replace existing bs but give different options/roles. (Except for the rokh which is soo powerful its unreal) I'm not saying that all tier 3 should pwn tier 2, I'm saying that the hyperion will be so incredibly restricted to one purpose that it's no more then fair imo that the hyperion will be the king of the hill in that area Wrong again. Everyship should be countered somehow. The counter to ac ships is to get into range. The counter to blasterships is to get out of range. It's really not that hard to work out. Originally by:** Testy Mctest Maybe I've become complacent in my whining. Maybe I don't whine enough. NO MORE I SAY. My fury has been renewed :P Finally! TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:49:00 - [24] Caldari gets a fantastic wtfpwnage 8 turret, 7 med slot railboat with a range bonus. Gallente gets a really fast, agile blasterboat with basicly no weeknesses. Amarr gets a fantastic ganker that will be able to dish out insane dps at range. Minmatar gets a slow shield tanked artillery boat with no useful bonuses for its role. Thats how I see it anyway. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:54:00 - [25] tempest with another turret hardpoint and possibly extra mid and 1 less low? Perhaps a touch more agility?
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Sarmaul If Gallente get Minmatatar's speed advantage, I want gallente's damage output. QFT ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Sarmaul Edited by: Sarmaul on 02/08/2006 12:40:21 Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Deathbarrage can someone plz explain to me why a tempest should win from a hyperion? afaik with the hyperion being an uber dedicated blaster ship and the tempest being able to snipe n **, and the hyperion being tier 3, I think it's more then reasonable that a hyperion should indeed wtfpwn a tempest.... I`m not asking that, i`m asking for the tempest to have a role which is pretty much removed now. The fact you think tier 3 should pwn tier 2 shows you dont really know that they arent supposed to replace existing bs but give different options/roles. (Except for the rokh which is soo powerful its unreal) I'm not saying that all tier 3 should pwn tier 2, I'm saying that the hyperion will be so incredibly restricted to one purpose that it's no more then fair imo that the hyperion will be the king of the hill in that area Wrong again. Everyship should be countered somehow. The counter to ac ships is to get into range. The counter to blasterships is to get out of range. It's really not that hard to work out. Originally by:** Testy Mctest Maybe I've become complacent in my whining. Maybe I don't whine enough. NO MORE I SAY. My fury has been renewed :P Finally! yeah so if you wanna counter the hyperion get a medium range ship and gank it from afar, imo it's ok for it to pwn you if you're inside his blaster range... I mean we've tried the ''high dmg low speed'' thing on the megathron, obviously didn't work cuz you got ganked all the time
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:09:00 - [28] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2006 13:09:20 Originally by: Deathbarrage yeah so if you wanna counter the hyperion get a medium range ship and gank it from afar, imo it's ok for it to pwn you if you're inside his blaster range... I mean we've tried the ''high dmg low speed'' thing on the megathron, obviously didn't work cuz you got ganked all the time ok i'll say the obvious. 20km warp disruptor range = mid range useless. Blasters + Null vs Ac's + Barrage have equal DPS at 16500m before you take into account blasters better tracking or the Megas larger drone bay. Listen to the Amarr, the only valid point that I agree with them on is having the longest low range weapons that actually outrange the other short range combat modules such as 20km warp disruptor. I don't see why Gallente should get a easy ride into Blaster range. Caldari easy mode on. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:15:00 - [29] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2006 13:09:20 Originally by: Deathbarrage yeah so if you wanna counter the hyperion get a medium range ship and gank it from afar, imo it's ok for it to pwn you if you're inside his blaster range... I mean we've tried the ''high dmg low speed'' thing on the megathron, obviously didn't work cuz you got ganked all the time ok i'll say the obvious. 20km warp disruptor range = mid range useless. Blasters + Null vs Ac's + Barrage have equal DPS at 16500m before you take into account blasters better tracking or the Megas larger drone bay. Listen to the Amarr, the only valid point that I agree with them on is having the longest low range weapons that actually outrange the other short range combat modules such as 20km warp disruptor. I don't see why Gallente should get a easy ride into Blaster range. Caldari easy mode on. well what you guys want is to make the hyperion into something that can't kill a tempest, how's that fair?
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2006 13:09:20 Originally by: Deathbarrage yeah so if you wanna counter the hyperion get a medium range ship and gank it from afar, imo it's ok for it to pwn you if you're inside his blaster range... I mean we've tried the ''high dmg low speed'' thing on the megathron, obviously didn't work cuz you got ganked all the time ok i'll say the obvious. 20km warp disruptor range = mid range useless. Blasters + Null vs Ac's + Barrage have equal DPS at 16500m before you take into account blasters better tracking or the Megas larger drone bay. Listen to the Amarr, the only valid point that I agree with them on is having the longest low range weapons that actually outrange the other short range combat modules such as 20km warp disruptor. I don't see why Gallente should get a easy ride into Blaster range. Caldari easy mode on. well what you guys want is to make the hyperion into something that can't kill a tempest, how's that fair? You are really starting to irritate me now. Vaga/Muninn vs Deimos: Minmatar wins if they keep the range, Gallente win if the get inside range Rupture vs Thorax: Same Wolf vs Enyo: Same Cyclone vs Brutix: Same Tempest vs Megathron: Same Blaster ships are supposed to be difficult to get into range - the payoff being that you BBQ everything once you are in there. To counter a blastership you need enough speed to stay at range. Remove that, and there is no counter for blasterships, creating inbalance. Is it really that hard to understand? If a blastership lands right on top of me I fully expect to die and will never complain. When a situation is introduced that no matter what the starting range is I will die, I will ***** and moan until it is sorted as it isn't balanced. Got it yet? TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:25:00 - [31] Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2006 13:09:20 Originally by: Deathbarrage yeah so if you wanna counter the hyperion get a medium range ship and gank it from afar, imo it's ok for it to pwn you if you're inside his blaster range... I mean we've tried the ''high dmg low speed'' thing on the megathron, obviously didn't work cuz you got ganked all the time ok i'll say the obvious. 20km warp disruptor range = mid range useless. Blasters + Null vs Ac's + Barrage have equal DPS at 16500m before you take into account blasters better tracking or the Megas larger drone bay. Listen to the Amarr, the only valid point that I agree with them on is having the longest low range weapons that actually outrange the other short range combat modules such as 20km warp disruptor. I don't see why Gallente should get a easy ride into Blaster range. Caldari easy mode on. well what you guys want is to make the hyperion into something that can't kill a tempest, how's that fair? LOL where did you work that one out from, no we don't. We want the Tempest to have a CHANCE of killing the Hyperion the same as every other balanced ship in the game. Domi can kill Tier 2 ships, the phoon now with the right skills has a chance against a Mega. why should tier 3 ships be able to pawn all others? Blasters down side is there cap use and range. Making a ship as fast as a Minmatar ship means that range penalty is mute. Gallente pilots want to remove the Tempests only advantage (NOS and ECM is being looked at HOW to be changed not if it should be changed which is the only other advantage a pest has), how is that fair ? T2 ammo is a big problem as stated. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Ganandorf	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:31:00 - [32] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Deathbarrage Originally by: Mila Prestoc Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2006 13:09:20 Originally by: Deathbarrage yeah so if you wanna counter the hyperion get a medium range ship and gank it from afar, imo it's ok for it to pwn you if you're inside his blaster range... I mean we've tried the ''high dmg low speed'' thing on the megathron, obviously didn't work cuz you got ganked all the time ok i'll say the obvious. 20km warp disruptor range = mid range useless. Blasters + Null vs Ac's + Barrage have equal DPS at 16500m before you take into account blasters better tracking or the Megas larger drone bay. Listen to the Amarr, the only valid point that I agree with them on is having the longest low range weapons that actually outrange the other short range combat modules such as 20km warp disruptor. I don't see why Gallente should get a easy ride into Blaster range. Caldari easy mode on. well what you guys want is to make the hyperion into something that can't kill a tempest, how's that fair? You are really starting to irritate me now. Vaga/Muninn vs Deimos: Minmatar wins if they keep the range, Gallente win if the get inside range Rupture vs Thorax: Same Wolf vs Enyo: Same Cyclone vs Brutix: Same Tempest vs Megathron: Same Blaster ships are supposed to be difficult to get into range - the payoff being that you BBQ everything once you are in there. To counter a blastership you need enough speed to stay at range. Remove that, and there is no counter for blasterships, creating inbalance. Is it really that hard to understand? If a blastership lands right on top of me I fully expect to die and will never complain. When a situation is introduced that no matter what the starting range is I will die, I will ***** and moan until it is sorted as it isn't balanced. Got it yet? So in your opinion it's balanced that a ship can only beat your tempest if it lands on top of you? cuz if it doesn't there really isn't a way for a megaT to get in range
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:39:00 - [33] Originally by: Ganandorf So in your opinion it's balanced that a ship can only beat your tempest if it lands on top of you? cuz if it doesn't there really isn't a way for a megaT to get in range Have you ever tried to keep out of a megas web range while keeping it scrambled? In most fight you end up webbed its just a matter of how long u can stay out of it and inflict as much dmg before that happens
Bazman Caldari The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:44:00 - [34] I want my blaster ship to have almost the same speed as the other races (Not something stupid like 30m/s than its equivelent), and slightly better agility, lots of people have been asking for a much higher base speed and tiny mass. Meh. It would make it far to easy to kill with a Blasterion. On the other hand, this ship has been stated to be a dedicated Blaster ship, it attributes will reflect this (Low locking range/scan res/sensor strenght) It wouldn't work if it ended up getting shafted because other battleships can outrun it. To put it simply, the Hyper needs to be equal to the Tempest in terms of mass/speed. Any more and it will become overpowered, but any less and you run the risk of it falling into the same trap as the Thron with blasters (really to bloody slow) ----- Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:44:00 - [35] Minmatar needs some other advantage than speed on the battleship level. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Wrayeth Inexorable Retribution	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Kaleeb Should the tempest have some changes with the upcoming changes to EW and the loss of its niche in speed? Yes. The multispec is the only thing that keeps it alive vs a Megathron, let alone the blaster monster the Hyperion is going to become. Combine that with a possible NOS nerf and we're left with a ship that can defeat amarr battleships and that's about it. For starters, remove the speed penalty from Hail. Why can gallente use their most damaging ammo while charging in a full speed yet Minmatar can't? QFT. That covers just about everything. I'm looking at having to fly my raven more and my tempest less when tier 3 BS and the ECM and nos nerfs hit TQ, though the tempest is more fun. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:49:00 - [37] Originally by: Bazman Edited by: Bazman on 02/08/2006 13:46:00 I want my blaster ship to have almost the same speed as the other races (Not something stupid like 30m/s slower or faster than its equivelents), and slightly better agility, lots of people have been asking for a much higher base speed and tiny mass. Meh. It would make it far to easy to kill with a Blasterion. On the other hand, this ship has been stated to be a dedicated Blaster ship, it attributes will reflect this (Low locking range/scan res/sensor strenght) It wouldn't work if it ended up getting shafted because other battleships can outrun it. To put it simply, the Hyper needs to be equal to the Tempest in terms of mass/speed. Any more and it will become overpowered, but any less and you run the risk of it falling into the same trap as the Thron with blasters (really to bloody slow) Going to quote Sarm again. Originally by: Sarmaul If Gallente get Minmatatar's speed advantage, I want gallente's damage output. 7 turrets on a pest please. Its more reasonable than a lighter, quicker Mega is. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:55:00 - [38] Before you start asking for boosts to the Tempest and Typhoon to counter the Hyperion, remember that you will need to boost every other battleship in the game too. And once thats done, you need to boost Hyperion again. Its a bad circle. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Bazman Caldari The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:56:00 - [39] Edited by: Bazman on 02/08/2006 13:59:29 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Bazman Edited by: Bazman on 02/08/2006 13:46:00 I want my blaster ship to have almost the same speed as the other races (Not something stupid like 30m/s slower or faster than its equivelents), and slightly better agility, lots of people have been asking for a much higher base speed and tiny mass. Meh. It would make it far to easy to kill with a Blasterion. On the other hand, this ship has been stated to be a dedicated Blaster ship, it attributes will reflect this (Low locking range/scan res/sensor strenght) It wouldn't work if it ended up getting shafted because other battleships can outrun it. To put it simply, the Hyper needs to be equal to the Tempest in terms of mass/speed. Any more and it will become overpowered, but any less and you run the risk of it falling into the same trap as the Thron with blasters (really to bloody slow) Going to quote Sarm again. Originally by: Sarmaul If Gallente get Minmatatar's speed advantage, I want gallente's damage output. 7 turrets on a pest please. Its more reasonable than a lighter, quicker Mega is. I could actually agree with that, but hey, you can always auto-up your Maelstrom and kick the Hyperions arse? Wheres the problem :P An Autotempest might not have much chance vs a close range Gallente battleship, but then again, neither do any of the other battleships except perhaps a Raven. This raw power is countered by the fact that if a Gallente close range ship encounters anything that can even use a single multispec (Or lets face it, ANY type of ewar, Blasterships have no space to fit sensor boosters, tracking computers or ECCM) then things will get tough. I've also seen Autotempests fare much better vs the likes of Ravens than a Blasterthron ever could. Its already been stated in this thread somewhere, but Minmatar's warfare philosophy simply doesn't cut it at the battleship level. The Minmatar whiners need to whine a bit more for that to ever change ;) Edit: I can think of loads of way to counter a Hyperion with a Tempest, despite the fact we don't even know the Hypers exact capabilities yet. Pretty much any EWAR, Webber drones, Nosferatu/neuts, hell, ANYTHING other than setting up for pure damage stands a better chance at killing a blaster ship than trying to outgank it. ----- Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 13:59:00 - [40] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 14:01:06 Originally by: Bazman This raw power is countered by the fact that if a Gallente close range ship encounters anything that can even use a single multispec (Or lets face it, ANY type of ewar, Blasterships have no space to fit sensor boosters, tracking computers or ECCM) then things will get tough. Hyperion looks to get 6 medium slots.... For the ones not understanding what that means (im sure you do though Baz), it means damage mods and tank in the lows, and then MWD/web/2 warp disruptors with 2 slots left for ECM (until its fixed). Can you say pwnage? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Bazman Caldari The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:01:00 - [41] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Bazman This raw power is countered by the fact that if a Gallente close range ship encounters anything that can even use a single multispec (Or lets face it, ANY type of ewar, Blasterships have no space to fit sensor boosters, tracking computers or ECCM) then things will get tough. Hyperion looks to get 6 medium slots.... Stats that have not been confirmed by CCP, besides, Not even tux can mess up so bad as to give the Hyper 6 mediums ----- Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:05:00 - [42] I thought the stats in the itemdb were messed up - Hyp should be listed as 8/5/7 while the maelstrom is 8/6/6 TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:10:00 - [43] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 14:10:47 Originally by: Sarmaul I thought the stats in the itemdb were messed up - Hyp should be listed as 8/5/7 while the maelstrom is 8/6/6 I used hippokings links to check them out on the test server, and currently its 8/6/6 for them both. But yeah, I prey those slot layouts are old. That being said, im sure you see how good the Hyperion will be even with 5 medium slots: 1x MWD 1x Web 1x Warp disruptor 1x Cap injector 1x Multispectral of doom And 7 low slots for damage/tank/wcs --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:11:00 - [44] Multispec of doom = nerfed (hopefully) And with no tracking bonus, expect something like double webs. TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Bazman Caldari The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:12:00 - [45] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 14:10:47 Originally by: Sarmaul I thought the stats in the itemdb were messed up - Hyp should be listed as 8/5/7 while the maelstrom is 8/6/6 I used hippokings links to check them out on the test server, and currently its 8/6/6 for them both. But yeah, I prey those slot layouts are old. That being said, im sure you see how good the Hyperion will be even with 5 medium slots: 1x MWD 1x Web 1x Warp disruptor 1x Cap injector 1x Multispectral of doom And 7 low slots for damage/tank/wcs I can guarantee you that they will install a Pentium 3 based Laptop as the Hyperions central computer, I bet you won't even be able to fit an EWAR module without crashing windows :P It's the trend with Gallente ships, especially now that the Hyper will have to fit 8 turrets :P ----- Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:14:00 - [46] Originally by: Sarmaul Multispec of doom = nerfed (hopefully) And with no tracking bonus, expect something like double webs. Sounds like large blasters have the tracking of artillery or something. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Deathbarrage	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:15:00 - [47] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Sarmaul Multispec of doom = nerfed (hopefully) And with no tracking bonus, expect something like double webs. Sounds like large blasters have the tracking of artillery or something. if you factor in the optimal range it's prolly worse then artillery
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Bazman I can guarantee you that they will install a Pentium 3 based Laptop as the Hyperions central computer, I bet you won't even be able to fit an EWAR module without crashing windows :P It's the trend with Gallente ships, especially now that the Hyper will have to fit 8 turrets :P Yeah, we need to see the powergrid/cpu for all of these new ships... but it will basicly be like most ships. Lowest caliber guns if you want a tank. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Amthrianius Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:19:00 - [49] i find it amusing that everyone is whining about a ship who's stats havent even been released yet. All thats been said so far is its a light, fast 8 turret blaster ship and its to the whine mobile. For all you know it could have 1k shields and 500 armour hp :P At least let them get them on sisi before *****ing about overpowered/underpowered sheesh ---------------
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:20:00 - [50] Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 02/08/2006 14:21:49 Originally by: Bazman Its already been stated in this thread somewhere, but Minmatar's warfare philosophy simply doesn't cut it at the battleship level. The Minmatar whiners need to whine a bit more for that to ever change ;) Introducing a ship that breaks any sort of balance/philosophys on war doesn't help. Obviously there are no stats so no point arguing about setups and such but its the THEORY behind the ship which is worrying atm. Like I said, the advantages of blasters: Best damage of all. Decent tracking. Disadvantages: Small range. (T2 ranged ammo counters this a bit but thats another topic) Uses cap (less than lasers) Now whats happening before/at same time as Tier3 ships: ECM is being looked at and nerfed - 1 ECM on a pest won't help as much. Counter to the super damage reduced. WCS - will mean more fights but people will fit more useful things for the actual fighting part NOS - being looked at. so fitting 2x nos on a pest will have reduced effect vs. blasters reducing the down side again. Its the factor of all these changes and the theory of the new ships that are worrying for me. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:28:00 - [51] Originally by: Amthrianius i find it amusing that everyone is whining about a ship who's stats havent even been released yet. All thats been said so far is its a light, fast 8 turret blaster ship and its to the whine mobile. For all you know it could have 1k shields and 500 armour hp :P At least let them get them on sisi before *****ing about overpowered/underpowered sheesh Where's the fun in that? TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust -
Bazman Caldari The Establishment	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:33:00 - [52] Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Amthrianius i find it amusing that everyone is whining about a ship who's stats havent even been released yet. All thats been said so far is its a light, fast 8 turret blaster ship and its to the whine mobile. For all you know it could have 1k shields and 500 armour hp :P At least let them get them on sisi before *****ing about overpowered/underpowered sheesh Where's the fun in that? Indeed, I like counter-whining as much as pre-emptive whining. Besides, this forum wouldn't be much use if everyone held their tongues :P ----- Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. I am a
Kaleeb Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:33:00 - [53] Originally by: Amthrianius i find it amusing that everyone is whining about a ship who's stats havent even been released yet. All thats been said so far is its a light, fast 8 turret blaster ship and its to the whine mobile. For all you know it could have 1k shields and 500 armour hp :P At least let them get them on sisi before *****ing about overpowered/underpowered I agree with what you are saying and this thread is here for possible solutions to the tempests problems. Not a whine at the hyperion. The hyperion is what it is and wont change, thats fine but the tempest needs to be usuable without relying on nos and the multi of doom sheesh
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 14:37:00 - [54] Besides, its always fun to spam "I told you so" in Tuxfords face after the Kali One patch. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.02 16:04:00 - [55] Originally by: Wrayeth Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: Kaleeb Should the tempest have some changes with the upcoming changes to EW and the loss of its niche in speed? Yes. The multispec is the only thing that keeps it alive vs a Megathron, let alone the blaster monster the Hyperion is going to become. Combine that with a possible NOS nerf and we're left with a ship that can defeat amarr battleships and that's about it. For starters, remove the speed penalty from Hail. Why can gallente use their most damaging ammo while charging in a full speed yet Minmatar can't? QFT. That covers just about everything. I'm looking at having to fly my raven more and my tempest less when tier 3 BS and the ECM and nos nerfs hit TQ, though the tempest is more fun. Wrayeth, wassup man! I'd like to say 'lets wait to see it b4 we whine' but i'm pretty sure time will show minnies get short end of the stick when it comes to these things.... and even more preemptive whining... you think the above is an ugly though for 'pest fans, wait till they fix ECM so you dont have that to fall back on. no sig so how about a fun fact?: HankMurphy eats babies
R31D	Posted - 2006.08.02 17:21:00 - [56] People complaining about the Tempest not being able to kill a Hyperion should compare megathron (or Hyperion) against a Maelstrom (based on what CCP have told us). With it's shieldboost bonus it should be able to tank all but the gankiest Megathron (and so therefore the Hyperion) and even if it can't, it'll be ablke to hold out for a good while. Now if the maelstrom has ACs, I doubt the Hyperion or Megathron stands a real chance against it up close and toe-to-toe (especially due to it's low speed it'll be fitting Hail) Free bumpage for all
Locke Ateid Minmatar Outrider Fleet Command	Posted - 2006.08.03 01:26:00 - [57] Edited by: Locke Ateid on 03/08/2006 01:32:03 Originally by: Sarmaul There are 2 ways to balance blasterships 1) Make it hard for them to get into range, but let them do insane damage when there 2) Make it easy for them to get into range, but let them do poor damage when there. Pick one. Or they could unboost the PG reduction Neutron Blasters got and Reduce the PG requirements of 800mm. Bad idea? Hell yeah. Good intentions? Maybe.

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