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Will CCP ever fix the lag?

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Tarri FACTA NON VERBA Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:25:00 - [1] I started this game last year, and first I had really fun. But now i have seen multiple fleet battles and all I can say is that the lag kills all the fun. Why are there capital ships if you can¦t use them right because of the lag, why are interceptors so fast if all you will do is flying in a straight line for minutes when trying to orbit something and so on...? EVE is a game with a lot of different content so why can we only use like a small part of it. Diplomacy is normal in EVE and so there will be blobs if needed, but if the game can¦t support that without lag all becomes senseless. I would prefer WoW style "batttlefields" to this lagfest..... and that says alot. Perhaps someone from CCP can answer this and offer a timeschedule which will show us when EVE will be fixed. I do hope they have one and don¦t try to feed us with new ships and candy so that we forget about the real problems. If lag is not solvable please tell us so that we don¦t waste our free time in trying to do things which will never be doable. Cheers, Tarri ----
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:30:00 - [2] Originally by: Tarri I started this game last year, and first I had really fun. But now i have seen multiple fleet battles and all I can say is that the lag kills all the fun. Why are there capital ships if you can¦t use them right because of the lag, why are interceptors so fast if all you will do is flying in a straight line for minutes when trying to orbit something and so on...? EVE is a game with a lot of different content so why can we only use like a small part of it. Diplomacy is normal in EVE and so there will be blobs if needed, but if the game can¦t support that without lag all becomes senseless. I would prefer WoW style "batttlefields" to this lagfest..... and that says alot. Perhaps someone from CCP can answer this and offer a timeschedule which will show us when EVE will be fixed. I do hope they have one and don¦t try to feed us with new ships and candy so that we forget about the real problems. If lag is not solvable please tell us so that we don¦t waste our free time in trying to do things which will never be doable. Cheers, Tarri CCP has fixed the lag many times... but each time they upgrade their hardware, the players increase the size of their fleets...
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:31:00 - [3] Lag is not solvable. Firstly, because a lot of it comes from your own computer; Secondly, because a lot of it comes from problems in between your own computer and CCP's servers; Thirdly, because every time CCP do something to improve the lag situation at their server end, people start making bigger blobs. If you can move 100 ships relatively lag-free, the other side brings 200 to combat you and it lags to hell; if they can move 200 ships relatively lag-free, you bring 300 ships to combat them and it lags to hell... ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Dao 2 The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:35:00 - [4] then get such good hardware that ppl can bring 1000 man blogs and cant lag out ;p ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Tarri FACTA NON VERBA Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Lag is not solvable. Firstly, because a lot of it comes from your own computer; Secondly, because a lot of it comes from problems in between your own computer and CCP's servers; Thirdly, because every time CCP do something to improve the lag situation at their server end, people start making bigger blobs. If you can move 100 ships relatively lag-free, the other side brings 200 to combat you and it lags to hell; if they can move 200 ships relatively lag-free, you bring 300 ships to combat them and it lags to hell... Please stop this, the lag does not come from my computer, the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!! Stop this disinformation please. My PC can handle a bit more then those 300 little ships on the screen... To be honest i was thinking that too but i upgraded my pc and on a Athlon 4200 X2 with 2 Geforce 7900 GT and 2 gb RAM EVE must run....... and it didn¦t really help a lot. ----
Novarei The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:37:00 - [6] its not an easy thing to fix the sheer amount of data to be sent and processed when 200 ships face off against another 200 is exponential. The only way i see to make fleet battles a non lag fest is to limit ship control and limit the data that gets to your client about what is going on. Even possibly make fleet battles a mini rts where the leader controls ships (lol). But i agree, lag is bad. But there have been many discussions on this, and CCP are always working on ways to "fix" lag.
Novarei The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:42:00 - [7] Originally by: Tarri the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!! lol... hahahaha... /me wonders if any game in the world is "programmed right" to allow 400 clients to interface with each other the net on a real time basis. Surprisingly the internet, your computer and CCPs server have technical limitations, maybe in the future it may be possible, but atm this kind of capability is outside of CCPs budget.
Nira Li Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:51:00 - [8] Atm there is no technology to reduce lag to 0. All lag is not CCPs fault. Fact is that CCP will never be abel to reduce lag because they don't control the routers between you and the server, they can't upgrade your computer and they can't make your ISP better. Lag will always be there and if you can't cope with it well too bad. You Will Cry My Name Funny Guys
WeetBix ANZAC ALLIANCE Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:52:00 - [9] Originally by: Novarei Originally by: Tarri the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!! lol... hahahaha... /me wonders if any game in the world is "programmed right" to allow 400 clients to interface with each other the net on a real time basis. But Tarri is still correct. If the game was programmed correctly it could handle a million people either side. So in a manner of speaking, yes, it is because the game isn't programmed right Maybe there should just be a limit to how many ships can be in one area at a time. If the server hits ‘overload’ stage, it stops people jumping in until it clears out a bit. Instead of the current blob style warefare, it would be warefare in waves. hides ----------- If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap.
Tarri FACTA NON VERBA Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:53:00 - [10] Originally by: Nira Li Atm there is no technology to reduce lag to 0. All lag is not CCPs fault. Fact is that CCP will never be abel to reduce lag because they don't control the routers between you and the server, they can't upgrade your computer and they can't make your ISP better. Lag will always be there and if you can't cope with it well too bad. I¦m not talking about reducing it to zero, there are ways to reduce it. And I¦m sure they can reduce it to a level where you can live with it. ----
Novarei The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:57:00 - [11] Edited by: Novarei on 07/08/2006 07:57:02 Originally by: Tarri Originally by: Nira Li Atm there is no technology to reduce lag to 0. All lag is not CCPs fault. Fact is that CCP will never be abel to reduce lag because they don't control the routers between you and the server, they can't upgrade your computer and they can't make your ISP better. Lag will always be there and if you can't cope with it well too bad. I¦m not talking about reducing it to zero, there are ways to reduce it. And I¦m sure they can reduce it to a level where you can live with it. They cannot however do this behind the scenes, they would have to make major changes to the game.
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2006.08.07 07:59:00 - [12] If CCP would finally be able to come up with a solution to the insta problem, then I am sure that will make the servers very happy.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:00:00 - [13] Edited by: Eilie on 07/08/2006 08:01:02 In 20 years (after we have all evolved to Jovians and Kali 1 is finally released) we'll be complaining about lag in our 10,000 vs 10,000 ship fleet battles. In 50 years (after Kali 2 is finally released) we'll be playing EVE in virtual reality and complaining about lag in our 100,000 vs 100,000 ship fleet battles. In 100 years (after Kali 3 is finally released) EVE will die because new players will not want to start when the vets have 2,000,000,000 Skill Points!
Darkrydar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:01:00 - [14] Edited by: Darkrydar on 07/08/2006 08:04:04 Originally by: Eilie Originally by: Tarri I started this game last year, and first I had really fun. But now i have seen multiple fleet battles and all I can say is that the lag kills all the fun. Why are there capital ships if you can¦t use them right because of the lag, why are interceptors so fast if all you will do is flying in a straight line for minutes when trying to orbit something and so on...? EVE is a game with a lot of different content so why can we only use like a small part of it. Diplomacy is normal in EVE and so there will be blobs if needed, but if the game can¦t support that without lag all becomes senseless. I would prefer WoW style "batttlefields" to this lagfest..... and that says alot. Perhaps someone from CCP can answer this and offer a timeschedule which will show us when EVE will be fixed. I do hope they have one and don¦t try to feed us with new ships and candy so that we forget about the real problems. If lag is not solvable please tell us so that we don¦t waste our free time in trying to do things which will never be doable. Cheers, Tarri CCP has fixed the lag many times... but each time they upgrade their hardware, the players increase the size of their fleets... Honestly, that is bull****. Back in the summer of 2004 the urse Alliance fought a major bttle against Xetic, Stain Alliance and ATUK in the system UQ-VWD in the Catch region. Both sides had 150-200 players each. There was lag, but NOTHING like this gamebreaking lag of today. CCP has upgraded the server considerably since tht epic battle, but performae is much worse now. I suspect bookmarks are one of the culprits. I also suspect POS themselves are to blame. I would be willing to bet here is serious resources involved in the calculations related to POS's.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:02:00 - [15] Haha, so much computer ignorance so early in the morning. Seriously, even if EVE had been released as a MUD we would still see people complaining about lag. And this one especially is hilarious: Originally by: Tarri Please stop this, the lag does not come from my computer, the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!! ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Tarri FACTA NON VERBA Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Haha, so much computer ignorance so early in the morning. Seriously, even if EVE had been released as a MUD we would still see people complaining about lag. And this one especially is hilarious: Originally by: Tarri Please stop this, the lag does not come from my computer, the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!! Check the post above yours before opening your mouth! ----
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Haha, so much computer ignorance so early in the morning. Seriously, even if EVE had been released as a MUD we would still see people complaining about lag. And this one especially is hilarious: Originally by: Tarri Please stop this, the lag does not come from my computer, the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!! Ofcourse the lag comes from your computer. There is no computer curently in existence that can play EVE at a decent framerate while displaying 500+ ships and thousands of missiles!
WeetBix ANZAC ALLIANCE Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:08:00 - [18] You know, this all raises an interesting question. Simply, are the servers working to capacity when there are lag hits? It could be that when there is a massive 200x200 battle, the server is casually working away with no trouble while waiting for responses from the clients, some of who may be on 56k modems. In this case, a million servers aren’t going to make any difference because it's simply the delay between server and client. Most online games combat this by booting anyone with bad pings or making sure the game only needs to transmit very small packets. OR, it could be that everyone is getting very good ping times, but when the 200x200 battle happens, the server just can't cope with the traffic and ping times shoot through the roof. In this case it's the fault of CCP, and more servers would fix it. So which ones is it? Are the servers working to capacity? Will more servers make any difference? If the problem is the client and the fact that there is too much data to transmit from client to server for good ping times, maybe something should be done to cut down on packet size? Where does the problem really stem from? ----------- If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:09:00 - [19] Originally by: WeetBix But Tarri is still correct. If the game was programmed correctly it could handle a million people either side. So in a manner of speaking, yes, it is because the game isn't programmed right This is the problem with a lot of people's perception of computers and programming. People seem to believe that "optimizing" and "upgrading" can solve any problem, and that any limitation must be due to some incompetence. Unfortunately, there are technical limitations. Do you think that Doom 3 won't run on a BBC Micro simply because the game isn't programmed correctly? Heck, I'd be impressed if you could even program a chat server that could handle 2 million people in the same channel, let alone a game like Eve. Originally by: WeetBix Maybe there should just be a limit to how many ships can be in one area at a time. If the server hits æoverloadÆ stage, it stops people jumping in until it clears out a bit. Instead of the current blob style warefare, it would be warefare in waves. Surely you realise what would really happen in that situation? If the system limit is 500 people, all an alliance has to do is pack 500 alts in that system, and they become untouchable. Blob warfare would become a matter of getting over half the player limit inside the system first. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Tarri FACTA NON VERBA Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:10:00 - [20] Originally by: WeetBix You know, this all raises an interesting question. Simply, are the servers working to capacity when there are lag hits? It could be that when there is a massive 200x200 battle, the server is casually working away with no trouble while waiting for responses from the clients, some of who may be on 56k modems. In this case, a million servers arenÆt going to make any difference because it's simply the delay between server and client. Most online games combat this by booting anyone with bad pings or making sure the game only needs to transmit very small packets. OR, it could be that everyone is getting very good ping times, but when the 200x200 battle happens, the server just can't cope with the traffic and ping times shoot through the roof. In this case it's the fault of CCP, and more servers would fix it. So which ones is it? Are the servers working to capacity? Will more servers make any difference? If the problem is the client and the fact that there is too much data to transmit from client to server for good ping times, maybe something should be done to cut down on packet size? Where does the problem really stem from? That seems the be the right questions Please answer them CCP!!! ----
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:13:00 - [21] From what I understand there are 3 problems with lag that can be fixed probably. 1. The amount of data you get from the server about the condition of other ships. As I understand, your computer receives a ton of information about the hostile ship. That can be reduced. The only real information you need is to identify the ship and its damage condition/whether its still alive or not. You don't absolutely NEED to know how much damage you do per hit for example in a fleet battle. 2. POSses seem to cause a huge amount of lag, due to a number of things. People leave a lot of stuff there, and it seems like the guns of POSses also cause tons of lag when activated. A solution would be to disable anchoring of secure cans within 200km of a POS, make all abandoned ships inside a POS shield get shoved out (as if it doesn't know the password) and as compensation make POS hangars bigger and make it possible to make some sort of 'open POS hangar', which can serve the purpose of giant secure cans without having more stuff anchored. Also, the code for activating POS guns might need a reworking. Finally, did anyone ever do a comprehensive check whether stuff inside cans and POS hangars might be loaded in every time you warp in to a POS? Fixing that could also help. 3. Bookmarks. I would love to see a check on how much lag bookmarks actually cause when loading in ships. I know opening up a shuttle with bookmarks in a station can take 10-15 minutes, and I wonder how much effect it has on people warping in on either other ships with bookmarks in their hold, on bookmarks in empty ships, in GSCs and in POS hangars. CCP really needs to get this fixed. At the moment, not only is the game in some aspects nearly unplayable, the fact it exists and goes unchecked also encourages unscrupulous individuals to make use of it. And if its use becomes more widespread, it will eventuelly start killing nodes.
Darkrydar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:13:00 - [22] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: WeetBix But Tarri is still correct. If the game was programmed correctly it could handle a million people either side. So in a manner of speaking, yes, it is because the game isn't programmed right This is the problem with a lot of people's perception of computers and programming. People seem to believe that "optimizing" and "upgrading" can solve any problem, and that any limitation must be due to some incompetence. Unfortunately, there are technical limitations. Do you think that Doom 3 won't run on a BBC Micro simply because the game isn't programmed correctly? Heck, I'd be impressed if you could even program a chat server that could handle 2 million people in the same channel, let alone a game like Eve. Originally by: WeetBix Maybe there should just be a limit to how many ships can be in one area at a time. If the server hits æoverloadÆ stage, it stops people jumping in until it clears out a bit. Instead of the current blob style warefare, it would be warefare in waves. Surely you realise what would really happen in that situation? If the system limit is 500 people, all an alliance has to do is pack 500 alts in that system, and they become untouchable. Blob warfare would become a matter of getting over half the player limit inside the system first. Regardless of everything you have posted there, the lag in large fleet fight use to be more playable than it is today. That is an undeniable fact. No amount of "I stayed at a Holiday in and am now the Internet Expert' talk or CCP fanboism lvl5 is going to change that fact. There is playable lag and there is gamebreaking lag. Nobody expects or is looking for perfection. However, we are getting an inferior product now compared to one a few years ago. It is sad, but it is true.
Ghargon Apocalypse Enterprises	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:14:00 - [23] Originally by: Darkrydar Edited by: Darkrydar on 07/08/2006 08:08:01 Originally by: Eilie Originally by: Tarri I started this game last year, and first I had really fun. But now i have seen multiple fleet battles and all I can say is that the lag kills all the fun. Why are there capital ships if you can¦t use them right because of the lag, why are interceptors so fast if all you will do is flying in a straight line for minutes when trying to orbit something and so on...? EVE is a game with a lot of different content so why can we only use like a small part of it. Diplomacy is normal in EVE and so there will be blobs if needed, but if the game can¦t support that without lag all becomes senseless. I would prefer WoW style "batttlefields" to this lagfest..... and that says alot. Perhaps someone from CCP can answer this and offer a timeschedule which will show us when EVE will be fixed. I do hope they have one and don¦t try to feed us with new ships and candy so that we forget about the real problems. If lag is not solvable please tell us so that we don¦t waste our free time in trying to do things which will never be doable. Cheers, Tarri CCP has fixed the lag many times... but each time they upgrade their hardware, the players increase the size of their fleets... Honestly, that is bull****. Back in the summer of 2004 the Curse Alliance fought a major battle against Xetic, Stain Alliance and ATUK in the system UQ-VWD in the Catch region. Both sides had 150-200 players each. There was lag, but NOTHING like this gamebreaking lag of today. CCP has upgraded the server considerably since tht epic battle, but performae is much worse now. I suspect bookmarks are one of the culprits. I also suspect POS themselves are to blame. I would be willing to bet here is serious resources involved in the calculations related to POS's. Back then however there where only a couple of thousand people on at peak times not the 20000 odd we have now. Also the game content has been upgraded a number of times which increases the amount of data sent between ccp and yourself. All this means that large scale fleet warfare is not possible lag free at the moment unless the node you are on is re-inforced, and we all know that that can take weeks. And the problem is very bad indeed, yesterday with roughly 45 people in local people were experienceing module lag of about 10-30 seconds. now thats small scale combat, any larger and the lag will be crippling. I never think of the future - It comes soon enough
Darkrydar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Malachon Draco From what I understand there are 3 problems with lag that can be fixed probably. 1. The amount of data you get from the server about the condition of other ships. As I understand, your computer receives a ton of information about the hostile ship. That can be reduced. The only real information you need is to identify the ship and its damage condition/whether its still alive or not. You don't absolutely NEED to know how much damage you do per hit for example in a fleet battle. 2. POSses seem to cause a huge amount of lag, due to a number of things. People leave a lot of stuff there, and it seems like the guns of POSses also cause tons of lag when activated. A solution would be to disable anchoring of secure cans within 200km of a POS, make all abandoned ships inside a POS shield get shoved out (as if it doesn't know the password) and as compensation make POS hangars bigger and make it possible to make some sort of 'open POS hangar', which can serve the purpose of giant secure cans without having more stuff anchored. Also, the code for activating POS guns might need a reworking. Finally, did anyone ever do a comprehensive check whether stuff inside cans and POS hangars might be loaded in every time you warp in to a POS? Fixing that could also help. 3. Bookmarks. I would love to see a check on how much lag bookmarks actually cause when loading in ships. I know opening up a shuttle with bookmarks in a station can take 10-15 minutes, and I wonder how much effect it has on people warping in on either other ships with bookmarks in their hold, on bookmarks in empty ships, in GSCs and in POS hangars. CCP really needs to get this fixed. At the moment, not only is the game in some aspects nearly unplayable, the fact it exists and goes unchecked also encourages unscrupulous individuals to make use of it. And if its use becomes more widespread, it will eventuelly start killing nodes. QFT 100%
Dao 2 The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:17:00 - [25] i do think it is a game issue though wether it be code wise, or watever i dont know ;p but all i can tell u is that long ago we could have battles of this magnatude with almost no lag now we lock up and crash and cant do anything for minutes to hours at a time :\| its not impossible, its happened ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:17:00 - [26] Originally by: WeetBix It could be that when there is a massive 200x200 battle, the server is casually working away with no trouble while waiting for responses from the clients, some of who may be on 56k modems. This will not be the case - the server does not wait for responses from clients. If it did, every time someone dropped connection the game would freeze for everyone until the server timed out their connection. If someone has a slow connection, the only person it will affect is that one player. The server itself will carry on regardless, it won't wait for that slow player to catch up. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Darkrydar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:20:00 - [27] Edited by: Darkrydar on 07/08/2006 08:21:57 Originally by: Ghargon Back then however there where only a couple of thousand people on at peak times not the 20000 odd we have now. Also the game content has been upgraded a number of times which increases the amount of data sent between ccp and yourself. Yes, there are more players on globaly now then at that time. However, didn't CPP 'just' do a massive server upgrade? I simply don;t buy that as excuse. Yes, there is more content now, that is very true. We now have POS with a STILL inefficent way to remove them. I'm sure with KALI (if ever) we'll get a whole lot more shiny new toys like ship modifications and salvaging. Yes, that is nice, but I'm sure it will only add to the problem unless CCP is willing do do as they say and bite the bullet and make some really hard choices.
WeetBix ANZAC ALLIANCE Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:22:00 - [28] Edited by: WeetBix on 07/08/2006 08:23:09 Originally by: Matthew Originally by: WeetBix But Tarri is still correct. If the game was programmed correctly it could handle a million people either side. So in a manner of speaking, yes, it is because the game isn't programmed right This is the problem with a lot of people's perception of computers and programming. People seem to believe that "optimizing" and "upgrading" can solve any problem, and that any limitation must be due to some incompetence. Unfortunately, there are technical limitations. Do you think that Doom 3 won't run on a BBC Micro simply because the game isn't programmed correctly? But is the problem really the power of the computer? If there was a 200x200 battle, if everyone was running the lowest settings how much difference would that make to the performance of the game? Lots? Any? I've seen some videos of games like Supreme Commander and it has hundreds upon hundreds of units on screen at once, all needing highly advanced AI to operate as well. If my computer can handle that with ease, shouldn't it be able to render a few hundred low poly ships and missiles? It would be interesting to test a local version of Eve, pack the screen with 500 npc ships and have them all fire a missile at once. Would my computer crash? Would it perform perfectly? That would go a long way to answering the question I put forth above: Where does the performance issue really stem from? Originally by: Matthew Originally by: WeetBix Maybe there should just be a limit to how many ships can be in one area at a time. If the server hits ‘overload’ stage, it stops people jumping in until it clears out a bit. Instead of the current blob style warefare, it would be warefare in waves. Surely you realise what would really happen in that situation? If the system limit is 500 people, all an alliance has to do is pack 500 alts in that system, and they become untouchable. Blob warfare would become a matter of getting over half the player limit inside the system first. hehe, I wouldn't put too much stock into my comment. It was just a silly passing idea ----------- If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap.
Mirasta Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:23:00 - [29] All systems with a conq station need dedicated nodes. All the complaints of lag stem from an engagement in a system with a station and POS smashing
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.08.07 08:24:00 - [30] Oh, I forgot it was Sunday yesterday, that explains everything. And btw. look what Oveur said some days ago when this topic surfaced last time link Pay attention to the part about the Dragon code. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute

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