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Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.07 07:25:00 -
[1]
I started this game last year, and first I had really fun. But now i have seen multiple fleet battles and all I can say is that the lag kills all the fun.
Why are there capital ships if you canŠt use them right because of the lag, why are interceptors so fast if all you will do is flying in a straight line for minutes when trying to orbit something and so on...?
EVE is a game with a lot of different content so why can we only use like a small part of it. Diplomacy is normal in EVE and so there will be blobs if needed, but if the game canŠt support that without lag all becomes senseless. I would prefer WoW style "batttlefields" to this lagfest..... and that says alot.
Perhaps someone from CCP can answer this and offer a timeschedule which will show us when EVE will be fixed. I do hope they have one and donŠt try to feed us with new ships and candy so that we forget about the real problems. If lag is not solvable please tell us so that we donŠt waste our free time in trying to do things which will never be doable.
Cheers,
Tarri
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.07 07:30:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Tarri
I started this game last year, and first I had really fun. But now i have seen multiple fleet battles and all I can say is that the lag kills all the fun.
Why are there capital ships if you canŠt use them right because of the lag, why are interceptors so fast if all you will do is flying in a straight line for minutes when trying to orbit something and so on...?
EVE is a game with a lot of different content so why can we only use like a small part of it. Diplomacy is normal in EVE and so there will be blobs if needed, but if the game canŠt support that without lag all becomes senseless. I would prefer WoW style "batttlefields" to this lagfest..... and that says alot.
Perhaps someone from CCP can answer this and offer a timeschedule which will show us when EVE will be fixed. I do hope they have one and donŠt try to feed us with new ships and candy so that we forget about the real problems. If lag is not solvable please tell us so that we donŠt waste our free time in trying to do things which will never be doable.
Cheers,
Tarri
CCP *has* fixed the lag many times... but each time they upgrade their hardware, the players increase the size of their fleets... 
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.08.07 07:31:00 -
[3]
Lag is not solvable.
Firstly, because a lot of it comes from your own computer;
Secondly, because a lot of it comes from problems in between your own computer and CCP's servers;
Thirdly, because every time CCP do something to improve the lag situation at their server end, people start making bigger blobs. If you can move 100 ships relatively lag-free, the other side brings 200 to combat you and it lags to hell; if they can move 200 ships relatively lag-free, you bring 300 ships to combat them and it lags to hell...
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"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Dao 2
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.07 07:35:00 -
[4]
then get such good hardware that ppl can bring 1000 man blogs and cant lag out ;p
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NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 07:36:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Lag is not solvable.
Firstly, because a lot of it comes from your own computer;
Secondly, because a lot of it comes from problems in between your own computer and CCP's servers;
Thirdly, because every time CCP do something to improve the lag situation at their server end, people start making bigger blobs. If you can move 100 ships relatively lag-free, the other side brings 200 to combat you and it lags to hell; if they can move 200 ships relatively lag-free, you bring 300 ships to combat them and it lags to hell...
Please stop this, the lag does not come from my computer, the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!! Stop this disinformation please. My PC can handle a bit more then those 300 little ships on the screen...
To be honest i was thinking that too but i upgraded my pc and on a Athlon 4200 X2 with 2 Geforce 7900 GT and 2 gb RAM EVE must run....... and it didnŠt really help a lot.
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Novarei
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.07 07:37:00 -
[6]
its not an easy thing to *fix* the sheer amount of data to be sent and processed when 200 ships face off against another 200 is exponential. The only way i see to make fleet battles a non lag fest is to limit ship control and limit the data that gets to your client about what is going on. Even possibly make fleet battles a mini rts where the leader controls ships (lol). But i agree, lag is bad.
But there have been many discussions on this, and CCP are always working on ways to "fix" lag.
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Novarei
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.07 07:42:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tarri
the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!!
lol... hahahaha...
/me wonders if any game in the world is "programmed right" to allow 400 clients to interface with each other the net on a real time basis.
Surprisingly the internet, your computer and CCPs server have technical limitations, maybe in the future it may be possible, but atm this kind of capability is outside of CCPs budget.
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Nira Li
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 07:51:00 -
[8]
Atm there is no technology to reduce lag to 0.
All lag is not CCPs fault.
Fact is that CCP will never be abel to reduce lag because they don't control the routers between you and the server, they can't upgrade your computer and they can't make your ISP better.
Lag will always be there and if you can't cope with it well too bad.
You Will Cry My Name
Funny Guys
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WeetBix
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.08.07 07:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Novarei
Originally by: Tarri
the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!!
lol... hahahaha...
/me wonders if any game in the world is "programmed right" to allow 400 clients to interface with each other the net on a real time basis.
But Tarri is still correct. If the game was programmed correctly it could handle a million people either side. So in a manner of speaking, yes, it is because the game isn't programmed right 
Maybe there should just be a limit to how many ships can be in one area at a time. If the server hits ‘overload’ stage, it stops people jumping in until it clears out a bit. Instead of the current blob style warefare, it would be warefare in waves.
*hides*
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If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap. |
Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 07:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Nira Li
Atm there is no technology to reduce lag to 0.
All lag is not CCPs fault.
Fact is that CCP will never be abel to reduce lag because they don't control the routers between you and the server, they can't upgrade your computer and they can't make your ISP better.
Lag will always be there and if you can't cope with it well too bad.
IŠm not talking about reducing it to zero, there are ways to reduce it. And IŠm sure they can reduce it to a level where you can live with it.
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Novarei
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.07 07:57:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Novarei on 07/08/2006 07:57:02
Originally by: Tarri
Originally by: Nira Li
Atm there is no technology to reduce lag to 0.
All lag is not CCPs fault.
Fact is that CCP will never be abel to reduce lag because they don't control the routers between you and the server, they can't upgrade your computer and they can't make your ISP better.
Lag will always be there and if you can't cope with it well too bad.
IŠm not talking about reducing it to zero, there are ways to reduce it. And IŠm sure they can reduce it to a level where you can live with it.
They cannot however do this behind the scenes, they would have to make major changes to the game.
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Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2006.08.07 07:59:00 -
[12]
If CCP would finally be able to come up with a solution to the insta problem, then I am sure that will make the servers very happy.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:00:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Eilie on 07/08/2006 08:01:02
In 20 years (after we have all evolved to Jovians and Kali 1 is finally released) we'll be complaining about lag in our 10,000 vs 10,000 ship fleet battles.
In 50 years (after Kali 2 is finally released) we'll be playing EVE in virtual reality and complaining about lag in our 100,000 vs 100,000 ship fleet battles.
In 100 years (after Kali 3 is finally released) EVE will die because new players will not want to start when the vets have 2,000,000,000 Skill Points! 
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Darkrydar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:01:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Darkrydar on 07/08/2006 08:04:04
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: Tarri
I started this game last year, and first I had really fun. But now i have seen multiple fleet battles and all I can say is that the lag kills all the fun.
Why are there capital ships if you canŠt use them right because of the lag, why are interceptors so fast if all you will do is flying in a straight line for minutes when trying to orbit something and so on...?
EVE is a game with a lot of different content so why can we only use like a small part of it. Diplomacy is normal in EVE and so there will be blobs if needed, but if the game canŠt support that without lag all becomes senseless. I would prefer WoW style "batttlefields" to this lagfest..... and that says alot.
Perhaps someone from CCP can answer this and offer a timeschedule which will show us when EVE will be fixed. I do hope they have one and donŠt try to feed us with new ships and candy so that we forget about the real problems. If lag is not solvable please tell us so that we donŠt waste our free time in trying to do things which will never be doable.
Cheers,
Tarri
CCP *has* fixed the lag many times... but each time they upgrade their hardware, the players increase the size of their fleets...
Honestly, that is bull****. Back in the summer of 2004 the urse Alliance fought a major bttle against Xetic, Stain Alliance and ATUK in the system UQ-VWD in the Catch region. Both sides had 150-200 players each. There was lag, but NOTHING like this gamebreaking lag of today. CCP has upgraded the server considerably since tht epic battle, but performae is much worse now.
I suspect bookmarks are one of the culprits. I also suspect POS themselves are to blame. I would be willing to bet here is serious resources involved in the calculations related to POS's.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:02:00 -
[15]
Haha, so much computer ignorance so early in the morning. Seriously, even if EVE had been released as a MUD we would still see people complaining about lag.
And this one especially is hilarious:
Originally by: Tarri
Please stop this, the lag does not come from my computer, the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!!
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Mr. Science & Trade Institute |
Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Haha, so much computer ignorance so early in the morning. Seriously, even if EVE had been released as a MUD we would still see people complaining about lag.
And this one especially is hilarious:
Originally by: Tarri
Please stop this, the lag does not come from my computer, the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!!
Check the post above yours before opening your mouth!
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Haha, so much computer ignorance so early in the morning. Seriously, even if EVE had been released as a MUD we would still see people complaining about lag.
And this one especially is hilarious:
Originally by: Tarri
Please stop this, the lag does not come from my computer, the lag comes from the game being not programmed right!!!!!!!!!!
Ofcourse the lag comes from your computer. There is no computer curently in existence that can play EVE at a decent framerate while displaying 500+ ships and thousands of missiles!
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WeetBix
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:08:00 -
[18]
You know, this all raises an interesting question. Simply, are the servers working to capacity when there are lag hits?
It could be that when there is a massive 200x200 battle, the server is casually working away with no trouble while waiting for responses from the clients, some of who may be on 56k modems. In this case, a million servers aren’t going to make any difference because it's simply the delay between server and client. Most online games combat this by booting anyone with bad pings or making sure the game only needs to transmit very small packets.
OR, it could be that everyone is getting very good ping times, but when the 200x200 battle happens, the server just can't cope with the traffic and ping times shoot through the roof. In this case it's the fault of CCP, and more servers would fix it.
So which ones is it? Are the servers working to capacity? Will more servers make any difference? If the problem is the client and the fact that there is too much data to transmit from client to server for good ping times, maybe something should be done to cut down on packet size?
Where does the problem really stem from?
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If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap. |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:09:00 -
[19]
Originally by: WeetBix
But Tarri is still correct. If the game was programmed correctly it could handle a million people either side. So in a manner of speaking, yes, it is because the game isn't programmed right
This is the problem with a lot of people's perception of computers and programming. People seem to believe that "optimizing" and "upgrading" can solve any problem, and that any limitation must be due to some incompetence. Unfortunately, there are technical limitations. Do you think that Doom 3 won't run on a BBC Micro simply because the game isn't programmed correctly?
Heck, I'd be impressed if you could even program a chat server that could handle 2 million people in the same channel, let alone a game like Eve.
Originally by: WeetBix
Maybe there should just be a limit to how many ships can be in one area at a time. If the server hits æoverloadÆ stage, it stops people jumping in until it clears out a bit. Instead of the current blob style warefare, it would be warefare in waves.
Surely you realise what would really happen in that situation? If the system limit is 500 people, all an alliance has to do is pack 500 alts in that system, and they become untouchable. Blob warfare would become a matter of getting over half the player limit inside the system first.
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There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:10:00 -
[20]
Originally by: WeetBix
You know, this all raises an interesting question. Simply, are the servers working to capacity when there are lag hits?
It could be that when there is a massive 200x200 battle, the server is casually working away with no trouble while waiting for responses from the clients, some of who may be on 56k modems. In this case, a million servers arenÆt going to make any difference because it's simply the delay between server and client. Most online games combat this by booting anyone with bad pings or making sure the game only needs to transmit very small packets.
OR, it could be that everyone is getting very good ping times, but when the 200x200 battle happens, the server just can't cope with the traffic and ping times shoot through the roof. In this case it's the fault of CCP, and more servers would fix it.
So which ones is it? Are the servers working to capacity? Will more servers make any difference? If the problem is the client and the fact that there is too much data to transmit from client to server for good ping times, maybe something should be done to cut down on packet size?
Where does the problem really stem from?
That seems the be the right questions  Please answer them CCP!!!
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:13:00 -
[21]
From what I understand there are 3 problems with lag that can be fixed probably.
1. The amount of data you get from the server about the condition of other ships. As I understand, your computer receives a ton of information about the hostile ship. That can be reduced. The only real information you need is to identify the ship and its damage condition/whether its still alive or not. You don't absolutely NEED to know how much damage you do per hit for example in a fleet battle.
2. POSses seem to cause a huge amount of lag, due to a number of things. People leave a lot of stuff there, and it seems like the guns of POSses also cause tons of lag when activated.
A solution would be to disable anchoring of secure cans within 200km of a POS, make all abandoned ships inside a POS shield get shoved out (as if it doesn't know the password) and as compensation make POS hangars bigger and make it possible to make some sort of 'open POS hangar', which can serve the purpose of giant secure cans without having more stuff anchored. Also, the code for activating POS guns might need a reworking.
Finally, did anyone ever do a comprehensive check whether stuff inside cans and POS hangars might be loaded in every time you warp in to a POS? Fixing that could also help.
3. Bookmarks. I would love to see a check on how much lag bookmarks actually cause when loading in ships. I know opening up a shuttle with bookmarks in a station can take 10-15 minutes, and I wonder how much effect it has on people warping in on either other ships with bookmarks in their hold, on bookmarks in empty ships, in GSCs and in POS hangars.
CCP really needs to get this fixed. At the moment, not only is the game in some aspects nearly unplayable, the fact it exists and goes unchecked also encourages unscrupulous individuals to make use of it. And if its use becomes more widespread, it will eventuelly start killing nodes.
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Darkrydar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: WeetBix
But Tarri is still correct. If the game was programmed correctly it could handle a million people either side. So in a manner of speaking, yes, it is because the game isn't programmed right
This is the problem with a lot of people's perception of computers and programming. People seem to believe that "optimizing" and "upgrading" can solve any problem, and that any limitation must be due to some incompetence. Unfortunately, there are technical limitations. Do you think that Doom 3 won't run on a BBC Micro simply because the game isn't programmed correctly?
Heck, I'd be impressed if you could even program a chat server that could handle 2 million people in the same channel, let alone a game like Eve.
Originally by: WeetBix
Maybe there should just be a limit to how many ships can be in one area at a time. If the server hits æoverloadÆ stage, it stops people jumping in until it clears out a bit. Instead of the current blob style warefare, it would be warefare in waves.
Surely you realise what would really happen in that situation? If the system limit is 500 people, all an alliance has to do is pack 500 alts in that system, and they become untouchable. Blob warfare would become a matter of getting over half the player limit inside the system first.
Regardless of everything you have posted there, the lag in large fleet fight use to be more playable than it is today. That is an undeniable fact. No amount of "I stayed at a Holiday in and am now the Internet Expert' talk or CCP fanboism lvl5 is going to change that fact.
There is playable lag and there is gamebreaking lag. Nobody expects or is looking for perfection. However, we are getting an inferior product now compared to one a few years ago. It is sad, but it is true.
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Ghargon
Apocalypse Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Darkrydar
Edited by: Darkrydar on 07/08/2006 08:08:01
Originally by: Eilie
Originally by: Tarri
I started this game last year, and first I had really fun. But now i have seen multiple fleet battles and all I can say is that the lag kills all the fun.
Why are there capital ships if you canŠt use them right because of the lag, why are interceptors so fast if all you will do is flying in a straight line for minutes when trying to orbit something and so on...?
EVE is a game with a lot of different content so why can we only use like a small part of it. Diplomacy is normal in EVE and so there will be blobs if needed, but if the game canŠt support that without lag all becomes senseless. I would prefer WoW style "batttlefields" to this lagfest..... and that says alot.
Perhaps someone from CCP can answer this and offer a timeschedule which will show us when EVE will be fixed. I do hope they have one and donŠt try to feed us with new ships and candy so that we forget about the real problems. If lag is not solvable please tell us so that we donŠt waste our free time in trying to do things which will never be doable.
Cheers,
Tarri
CCP *has* fixed the lag many times... but each time they upgrade their hardware, the players increase the size of their fleets...
Honestly, that is bull****. Back in the summer of 2004 the Curse Alliance fought a major battle against Xetic, Stain Alliance and ATUK in the system UQ-VWD in the Catch region. Both sides had 150-200 players each. There was lag, but NOTHING like this gamebreaking lag of today. CCP has upgraded the server considerably since tht epic battle, but performae is much worse now.
I suspect bookmarks are one of the culprits. I also suspect POS themselves are to blame. I would be willing to bet here is serious resources involved in the calculations related to POS's.
Back then however there where only a couple of thousand people on at peak times not the 20000 odd we have now. Also the game content has been upgraded a number of times which increases the amount of data sent between ccp and yourself. All this means that large scale fleet warfare is not possible lag free at the moment unless the node you are on is re-inforced, and we all know that that can take weeks.
And the problem is very bad indeed, yesterday with roughly 45 people in local people were experienceing module lag of about 10-30 seconds. now thats small scale combat, any larger and the lag will be crippling.
I never think of the future - It comes soon enough |
Darkrydar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:15:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Malachon Draco
From what I understand there are 3 problems with lag that can be fixed probably.
1. The amount of data you get from the server about the condition of other ships. As I understand, your computer receives a ton of information about the hostile ship. That can be reduced. The only real information you need is to identify the ship and its damage condition/whether its still alive or not. You don't absolutely NEED to know how much damage you do per hit for example in a fleet battle.
2. POSses seem to cause a huge amount of lag, due to a number of things. People leave a lot of stuff there, and it seems like the guns of POSses also cause tons of lag when activated.
A solution would be to disable anchoring of secure cans within 200km of a POS, make all abandoned ships inside a POS shield get shoved out (as if it doesn't know the password) and as compensation make POS hangars bigger and make it possible to make some sort of 'open POS hangar', which can serve the purpose of giant secure cans without having more stuff anchored. Also, the code for activating POS guns might need a reworking.
Finally, did anyone ever do a comprehensive check whether stuff inside cans and POS hangars might be loaded in every time you warp in to a POS? Fixing that could also help.
3. Bookmarks. I would love to see a check on how much lag bookmarks actually cause when loading in ships. I know opening up a shuttle with bookmarks in a station can take 10-15 minutes, and I wonder how much effect it has on people warping in on either other ships with bookmarks in their hold, on bookmarks in empty ships, in GSCs and in POS hangars.
CCP really needs to get this fixed. At the moment, not only is the game in some aspects nearly unplayable, the fact it exists and goes unchecked also encourages unscrupulous individuals to make use of it. And if its use becomes more widespread, it will eventuelly start killing nodes.
QFT 100%
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Dao 2
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:17:00 -
[25]
i do think it is a game issue though
wether it be code wise, or watever i dont know ;p
but all i can tell u is that long ago we could have battles of this magnatude with almost no lag now we lock up and crash and cant do anything for minutes to hours at a time :|
its not impossible, its happened
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NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: WeetBix
It could be that when there is a massive 200x200 battle, the server is casually working away with no trouble while waiting for responses from the clients, some of who may be on 56k modems.
This will not be the case - the server does not wait for responses from clients. If it did, every time someone dropped connection the game would freeze for everyone until the server timed out their connection.
If someone has a slow connection, the only person it will affect is that one player. The server itself will carry on regardless, it won't wait for that slow player to catch up.
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There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Darkrydar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:20:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Darkrydar on 07/08/2006 08:21:57
Originally by: Ghargon
Back then however there where only a couple of thousand people on at peak times not the 20000 odd we have now. Also the game content has been upgraded a number of times which increases the amount of data sent between ccp and yourself.
Yes, there are more players on globaly now then at that time. However, didn't CPP 'just' do a massive server upgrade? I simply don;t buy that as excuse.
Yes, there is more content now, that is very true. We now have POS with a STILL inefficent way to remove them. I'm sure with KALI (if ever) we'll get a whole lot more shiny new toys like ship modifications and salvaging. Yes, that is nice, but I'm sure it will only add to the problem unless CCP is willing do do as they say and bite the bullet and make some really hard choices.
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WeetBix
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Miners With Attitude
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:22:00 -
[28]
Edited by: WeetBix on 07/08/2006 08:23:09
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: WeetBix
But Tarri is still correct. If the game was programmed correctly it could handle a million people either side. So in a manner of speaking, yes, it is because the game isn't programmed right
This is the problem with a lot of people's perception of computers and programming. People seem to believe that "optimizing" and "upgrading" can solve any problem, and that any limitation must be due to some incompetence. Unfortunately, there are technical limitations. Do you think that Doom 3 won't run on a BBC Micro simply because the game isn't programmed correctly?
But is the problem really the power of the computer? If there was a 200x200 battle, if everyone was running the lowest settings how much difference would that make to the performance of the game? Lots? Any? I've seen some videos of games like Supreme Commander and it has hundreds upon hundreds of units on screen at once, all needing highly advanced AI to operate as well. If my computer can handle that with ease, shouldn't it be able to render a few hundred low poly ships and missiles? It would be interesting to test a local version of Eve, pack the screen with 500 npc ships and have them all fire a missile at once. Would my computer crash? Would it perform perfectly? That would go a long way to answering the question I put forth above: Where does the performance issue really stem from?
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: WeetBix
Maybe there should just be a limit to how many ships can be in one area at a time. If the server hits ‘overload’ stage, it stops people jumping in until it clears out a bit. Instead of the current blob style warefare, it would be warefare in waves.
Surely you realise what would really happen in that situation? If the system limit is 500 people, all an alliance has to do is pack 500 alts in that system, and they become untouchable. Blob warfare would become a matter of getting over half the player limit inside the system first.
hehe, I wouldn't put too much stock into my comment. It was just a silly passing idea
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If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap. |
Mirasta
Caldari
Enigma Enterprises
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:23:00 -
[29]
All systems with a conq station need dedicated nodes. All the complaints of lag stem from an engagement in a system with a station and POS smashing
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:24:00 -
[30]
Oh, I forgot it was Sunday yesterday, that explains everything.
And btw. look what Oveur said some days ago when this topic surfaced last time link
Pay attention to the part about the Dragon code.
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Mr. Science & Trade Institute |
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Dao 2
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.07 08:25:00 -
[31]
well if the server cant handle that much stuff :| its to much then, either no more new subs ;p (which aint gonna happen) massive redoing of the game ;p massive technology improvement ;p or sharded servers :|
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NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:29:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Oh, I forgot it was Sunday yesterday, that explains everything.
And btw. look what Oveur said some days ago when this topic surfaced last time link
Pay attention to the part about the Dragon code.
But will the dragon code really help? I think CCP does not feel the pressure enough atm. We need to keep the pressure up to prevent CCP from becoming lazy.
BTW: How much of the monthly fee is pure benefit for CCP and how much is used to make the game better?
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Darkrydar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:29:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Oh, I forgot it was Sunday yesterday, that explains everything.
And btw. look what Oveur said some days ago when this topic surfaced last time link
Pay attention to the part about the Dragon code.
Very good post. Thx for the link, I missed that thread. Hopefully CCP will design the balancing in a way that will allow for the conquerable stations and other hot spots (EC-) to get higher performance.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:33:00 -
[34]
Load balancing will certainly play a part in it, but there is something going on with POSses. Lag there is many times worse than elsewhere, big fleet battles at a gate don't produce nearly as much lag as fighting at a POS.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Tarri
But will the dragon code really help? I think CCP does not feel the pressure enough atm. We need to keep the pressure up to prevent CCP from becoming lazy.
40,000 players in China indicates that Dragon does make a differnce.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
|
Miss Overlord
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:36:00 -
[36]
well things are looking ok and dragon patch should help
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Dao 2
The Scope
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:39:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tarri
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Oh, I forgot it was Sunday yesterday, that explains everything.
And btw. look what Oveur said some days ago when this topic surfaced last time link
Pay attention to the part about the Dragon code.
But will the dragon code really help? I think CCP does not feel the pressure enough atm. We need to keep the pressure up to prevent CCP from becoming lazy.
BTW: How much of the monthly fee is pure benefit for CCP and how much is used to make the game better?
that dragon code is not gonna help in terms of fleet battles in the slighest :|
------------------------------------------------
NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
WeetBix
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Miners With Attitude
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:39:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tarri
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Oh, I forgot it was Sunday yesterday, that explains everything.
And btw. look what Oveur said some days ago when this topic surfaced last time link
Pay attention to the part about the Dragon code.
But will the dragon code really help? I think CCP does not feel the pressure enough atm. We need to keep the pressure up to prevent CCP from becoming lazy.
BTW: How much of the monthly fee is pure benefit for CCP and how much is used to make the game better?
Oh so true.
I think we need to stop throwing the word 'Lag' around, since we really can't be sure what causes the performance problems, and just call it what it is: Performance problems. But how much does ccp care about fixing it? Do they know what the problem is and how to fix it, but just haven’t got the time to fix it? The money to fix it? The knowledge to fix it? Whichever one of those it is, will our monthly fees make any difference, or is it just funding something like a Chinese version of Eve?
(btw: I would love to see the difference between our eve and China Eve)
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If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap. |
Eloc Peptabysmal
Caldari
Madison Industrial Co.
Novus Ordos Seclorum
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:40:00 -
[39]
In the two occasions I've visited a POS, I've noticed things to be a bit laggier than usual. And that is with just maybe five structures and five player ships floating in space.
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Dao 2
The Scope
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:42:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Eloc Peptabysmal
In the two occasions I've visited a POS, I've noticed things to be a bit laggier than usual. And that is with just maybe five structures and five player ships floating in space.
bubbly thing ;p
------------------------------------------------
NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p)
the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that
Also the gal |
|
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Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:46:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Darkrydar
That is an undeniable fact. No amount of "I stayed at a Holiday in and am now the Internet Expert' talk or CCP fanboism lvl5 is going to change that fact.
And no amount of "I'm a paying customer I want things to work how I want them" moaning on the forums is going to magic up a solution to this problem.
Originally by: Ghargon
And the problem is very bad indeed, yesterday with roughly 45 people in local people were experienceing module lag of about 10-30 seconds. now thats small scale combat, any larger and the lag will be crippling.
Local is a very bad indicator of load. If there was a large fleet battle going on somewhere else in your constellation, or in any of the other constellations on your node, you would see lag even if you were sitting on your own at a safespot.
Originally by: Dao 2
but all i can tell u is that long ago we could have battles of this magnatude with almost no lag now we lock up and crash and cant do anything for minutes to hours at a time :|
Yes, sometimes those large battles work. But there were also many, many times when they didn't. Just like today, fleet performance depends a lot on the node lottery.
In the past, load was far easier to balance. There were very few conquerable stations, in fixed locations, which could be given their own nodes. Now alliances get to put up as many outposts as they like (or can), in whatever 0.0 system they want. That freedom has come at the cost of increasing the difficulty of loadbalancing.
Of course, CCP have not ignored this. The Dragon patch contains new loadbalancing code that will shift the odds of the node lottery significantly in favour of fleet battles.
Originally by: Malachon Draco
The amount of data you get from the server about the condition of other ships. As I understand, your computer receives a ton of information about the hostile ship. That can be reduced. The only real information you need is to identify the ship and its damage condition/whether its still alive or not.
Actually, you need both more and less than that. You only need to know the damage levels on the ships you have targetted, and the ships in your own gang. For the rest Dead=Yes/No will suffice. Of course, you do also need to know, and keep updated, location heading and speed for all ships. That's probably going to be a large chunk of the information, and there's no real way around it.
There's also the issue that the server limit isn't necessarily bandwidth. The server is going to have to calculate all this information to maintain the game world, regardless of whether it gets sent to you or not. If the process is CPU-bound, it may actually be better to just broadcast the information, rather than spend further CPU time filtering who it gets sent to, especially if the broadcast task can be offloaded from the stressed SOL node to a quieter proxy node.
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There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:50:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Matthew
.......
And no amount of "I'm a paying customer I want things to work how I want them" moaning on the forums is going to magic up a solution to this problem.
......
Please tell me why not? If we donŠt complain CCP will get their priorities wrong as they need our feedback to see what is wrong.
----
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WeetBix
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Miners With Attitude
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:51:00 -
[43]
Quick question: Is there a way to view the current FPS and Ping times? it would be interesting during lag hits to note what these numbers are.
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If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap. |
Sirial Soulfly
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:53:00 -
[44]
Originally by: WeetBix
Quick question: Is there a way to view the current FPS and Ping times? it would be interesting during lag hits to note what these numbers are.
Srceen lag or server lag are two completely seperate things.
|
WeetBix
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Miners With Attitude
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 08:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sirial Soulfly
Originally by: WeetBix
Quick question: Is there a way to view the current FPS and Ping times? it would be interesting during lag hits to note what these numbers are.
Srceen lag or server lag are two completely seperate things.
Indeed. If the game starts to go slow, and fps crashes to 2 but your ping is still at a nice 20, maybe the problem isn't ccp? Conversely, if fps is still at 60 and ping shoots to 500, then it tells you the problem isn't from your computer (at least from the hardware/graphic card end).
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If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap. |
Darkrydar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 09:06:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Matthew
And no amount of "I'm a paying customer I want things to work how I want them" moaning on the forums is going to magic up a solution to this problem.
Well, I guess we shouldn't even bother complaining then. We should just talke what we get and be happy then because you have fanboy lvl5.
This has been an ongoing problem that is getting worse rather than better. But, I guess we could all follow your path and <insert head into sand> while periodicly immering to defend the indefendable.
Yeah right
|
WeetBix
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Miners With Attitude
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 09:12:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Matthew
And no amount of "I'm a paying customer I want things to work how I want them" moaning on the forums is going to magic up a solution to this problem.
Damn right! We should all just roll over and DIE. Who are we to suggest fixes? Just look how good Star Wars Galaxy's turned out because they ignored the players and introduced the NGE. Man, the players LOVED that!
Down with player rights!
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If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap. |
Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 09:13:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Tarri
Originally by: Matthew
.......
And no amount of "I'm a paying customer I want things to work how I want them" moaning on the forums is going to magic up a solution to this problem.
......
Please tell me why not? If we donŠt complain CCP will get their priorities wrong as they need our feedback to see what is wrong.
Do you really think they've forgotten yesterday's fleet lag thread already? Or the one the day before? Has anything changed since then? Is there any new point being made that the Devs don't already know?
The danger of complaining too much is that it will just become background noise and actually lose influence.
Originally by: WeetBix
Quick question: Is there a way to view the current FPS and Ping times? it would be interesting during lag hits to note what these numbers are.
There is an in-game FPS meter, but I wouldn't recommend using it, as turning it on immediately drops your FPS significantly. I'd suggest using something like FRAPS instead. If your FPS plummet during a fleet fight, you need to sort your PC before anything else. If your FPS stay high, but you still see lag, the next thing to check is the traffic on your connection. If your connection is saturating, then that's something you need to address again, though eve is usually very economical with bandwidth. Only if both those are covered, and you're still lagging can you be sure it's server lag (yes, I know there's an issue of server ping time etc, but if your connection has a ping of several seconds, your connection is just gonna get dropped anyway so you wouldn't be there to see the lag).
-------
There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
WeetBix
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Miners With Attitude
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 09:17:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: WeetBix
Quick question: Is there a way to view the current FPS and Ping times? it would be interesting during lag hits to note what these numbers are.
There is an in-game FPS meter, but I wouldn't recommend using it, as turning it on immediately drops your FPS significantly.
Lol, how ironic
Originally by: Matthew
I'd suggest using something like FRAPS instead. If your FPS plummet during a fleet fight, you need to sort your PC before anything else. If your FPS stay high, but you still see lag, the next thing to check is the traffic on your connection. If your connection is saturating, then that's something you need to address again, though eve is usually very economical with bandwidth. Only if both those are covered, and you're still lagging can you be sure it's server lag (yes, I know there's an issue of server ping time etc, but if your connection has a ping of several seconds, your connection is just gonna get dropped anyway so you wouldn't be there to see the lag).
I think this would what would be interesting to note when there is another big battle. It would be kinda funny if everyone has their fps crash but the ping time happily goes along at 100 or so
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If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap. |
Aqua Marina
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 09:21:00 -
[50]
I found this weekend very bad, flew into a 20+ gate gank in my tranis and perished, could not warp or activate mods.
It was awful, never been caught like that before, I could neither warp away or mwd to the gate.
I just had to sit there and get blasted.
My overview filled up slowly with the gankers ships,it was a waste of effort and time.
Where is this game going atm?.
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|
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Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 09:44:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Darkrydar
This has been an ongoing problem that is getting worse rather than better. But, I guess we could all follow your path and <insert head into sand> while periodicly immering to defend the indefendable.
Yeah right
Or maybe the fact that it is an ongoing problem may suggest that the quick and easy fix you desire simply doesn't exist?
Maybe you think that Oveur is sitting there in his lair, stroking his cat, while saying "You see Mr Bond, nothing can stop Operation Lag".
You know lag sucks. I know lag sucks. The Devs know lag sucks. But just because something sucks, doesn't mean there is a quick or easy way to fix it, or indeed any way at all.
Originally by: WeetBix
Damn right! We should all just roll over and DIE. Who are we to suggest fixes? Just look how good Star Wars Galaxy's turned out because they ignored the players and introduced the NGE. Man, the players LOVED that!
Introducing the NGE was a choice entirely down to the devs on SWG. They had full control over that situation. That it sucked was entirely their fault.
While CCP can make tweaks and optimisations in their code, there are limits to how far that can get you. They do not have control over the speed of hardware that is available, nor the roadmaps for future processor developments. They are not, and cannot reasonably be expected to be, in control of all the limiting factors in this problem. It's not like they can just log into the RL server and spawn themselves the latest officer-grade server cluster.
By all means continue moaning if you really want to. Just don't expect it to change the technical reality of the situation.
-------
There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Darkrydar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 09:59:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Matthew
Or maybe the fact that it is an ongoing problem may suggest that the quick and easy fix you desire simply doesn't exist?
Maybe you think that Oveur is sitting there in his lair, stroking his cat, while saying "You see Mr Bond, nothing can stop Operation Lag".
You know lag sucks. I know lag sucks. The Devs know lag sucks. But just because something sucks, doesn't mean there is a quick or easy way to fix it, or indeed any way at all.
I'd like to belive you that they care, I really would. However after 3+ years playing this game, I've gotten use to how things work. Instead of giving us all thee new toys and gadgets they should dedicate themselves to fixing what we got. However, instead of stoning up and getting rid of **** like the current bookmark system, they give us capital ships and pos. Those inturn require more of the already dimishing resources.
Why are we allowing players to have 50K bookmarks? That is insane. Right now we have a broken game and the newest promise is this dragon code. It seems like more patches on the leaky ship instead of doing what needs to be done. Maybe you'll see that they give us just enough to keep us around and just enough promises to keep us waiting.
My application for Bitter Vet is now being submitted.
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WeetBix
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Miners With Attitude
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 10:35:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Matthew
Maybe you think that Oveur is sitting there in his lair, stroking his cat, while saying "You see Mr Bond, nothing can stop Operation Lag".
I just laughed pizza over my keyboard
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If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap. |
Zantazar
Caldari
The Syndicate Inc
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 11:08:00 -
[54]
For what is worth, how about this to attack the instas problem.
Create two new skills.
Navigational Positioning. (Navigation level 3 required)
With each level you gain a 2Km accuracy to target. Therefore at level 5 you will be able to warp to within 5Km. The cost of this skill .. approx 250,000 isk.
Advanced Navigational Positioning. (Navigational Positioning level 5 required)
With each level you gain a 1Km accuracy to target. Therefore at level 5 you will be able to warp to within 0Km. The cost of this skill .. approx 1 mil isk.
Tell me what you think ?
Flame on
I would sell my soul, my body, and my entire family for a Navy Raven. (Just kidding .... my soul is not for sale)
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Ivan Kirilenkov
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 11:13:00 -
[55]
In regards to the lag-problems, I've gathered a small collection of posts from Oveur on this topic;
this, this and this
eve-crc.net | forum rules |[email protected] |
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Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 11:48:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Darkrydar
Originally by: Matthew
Or maybe the fact that it is an ongoing problem may suggest that the quick and easy fix you desire simply doesn't exist?
Maybe you think that Oveur is sitting there in his lair, stroking his cat, while saying "You see Mr Bond, nothing can stop Operation Lag".
You know lag sucks. I know lag sucks. The Devs know lag sucks. But just because something sucks, doesn't mean there is a quick or easy way to fix it, or indeed any way at all.
I'd like to belive you that they care, I really would. However after 3+ years playing this game, I've gotten use to how things work. Instead of giving us all thee new toys and gadgets they should dedicate themselves to fixing what we got. However, instead of stoning up and getting rid of **** like the current bookmark system, they give us capital ships and pos. Those inturn require more of the already dimishing resources.
Why are we allowing players to have 50K bookmarks? That is insane. Right now we have a broken game and the newest promise is this dragon code. It seems like more patches on the leaky ship instead of doing what needs to be done. Maybe you'll see that they give us just enough to keep us around and just enough promises to keep us waiting.
My application for Bitter Vet is now being submitted.
They should build a new ship cause if the old one has too many leaks there is no point in fixing it, it will just get worth....
----
|
Tachy
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 12:10:00 -
[57]
Current computers are still really limited when it comes to real-time computing.
We'll see if the Dragon Code helps as much as promised, or if the reality of 500k pilots with BM and assets spread all over the starcluster reaches todays' technical limits.
--*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Rexthor Hammerfists
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 12:12:00 -
[58]
ccp just needs the stones to remove all bms in the grid of warpable objects,
and add a warp to 0km option ;).
millions of bms gone + this draon code must change alot.
-
Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
|
Gary Payne
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 12:33:00 -
[59]
the lag has nothing to do with your gfx card cpu, its all comes down to your upload rate and download rate of your internet connection.. and sadly the speed that internet providers give us is totally crap.. even the fastest cant support the amount of upload/download of 1000 ship battles or less..
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Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 12:39:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Gary Payne
the lag has nothing to do with your gfx card cpu, its all comes down to your upload rate and download rate of your internet connection.. and sadly the speed that internet providers give us is totally crap.. even the fastest cant support the amount of upload/download of 1000 ship battles or less..
No, i am pretty sure thatŠs not the problem and if then it is a programming problem.
----
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Hayane
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:08:00 -
[61]
Little thing in Eve make me wander if CCP should review their code. A little example of that is why they send 2 requests to get de distance of the same object. Why when I target something the distance that is write down of the target image, is different from my overview. One request to the server should be enough and they should be refreshing at the same time. Now imagine in a fleet battleàeach player have 5 targetsàfor each one you send 2 requestsàwhile one could do the job just fine.
p.s.: Sorry for any grammar or spelling mistake, my english is not very good 
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Tachy
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 13:18:00 -
[62]
I don't think there are two requests for the positions.
As the overview can and will bug out frequently, the flight display works pretty good. The overview probably takes the values from the flight info.
One value will be an estimated one.
This is done by the client to counter possible lag. These techniques are heavily used in FPS style online games. You'd never hit an erratically and fast moving target without guessing where it will be a few seconds later - when your projectile/arrow/fist will be when the target's position got updated to you.
When EVE was younger, you could see when the client and the server compared positions of objects all the time. Objects jumped, formations bounced and we had rubberband flight patterns when exiting warp all the time.
--*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
WeetBix
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Miners With Attitude
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 15:57:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Gary Payne
the lag has nothing to do with your gfx card cpu, its all comes down to your upload rate and download rate of your internet connection.. and sadly the speed that internet providers give us is totally crap.. even the fastest cant support the amount of upload/download of 1000 ship battles or less..
Don't forget that when Eve had less people playing the massive fleet battles that took place ran very smoothly (according to vet players). Now that so many more people are playing and the servers are more full, the system is having trouble. So no, it does not "all come down to your upload rate and download rate", but yes in cases where a player has a slow connection (ie. 56k) it can be a contributing factor.
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If I see one more 'FIRST!' post, I'm gonna snap. |
spurious signal
Caldari
Brainiacs
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 16:08:00 -
[64]
What is badly needed here is some hard information gathered from dedicated testing.
Someone with a high-end PC needs to monitor a number of things at their end while engaged in various sized fleet battles:
Processor use.
Memory use.
Bandwidth used.
Video RAM useage.
etc.
My feeling, from the nature of the lag and from my own personal bandwidth monitoring, is that the majority of the lag is client-side graphics lag. The bandwidth used by EVE really never seems to rise very high, most of the time it's at less than 5kbps, but I've not been in any huge fleet battles since I got my G15 keyboard (which allows me to monitor bandwidth use thanks to a small app).
Without some better information we're all just speculating.
CCP - is there anything we can do as players to help you pinpoint the causes of the lag or to help find solutions to it?
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Tachy
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 16:44:00 -
[65]
The client tries to draw all frames and it doesn't skip some when it cant process them in real time. That's one of the reason the client sometimes feels like crashed and the server doesn't show any special stuff going on in the logs - the data exchange in the background continues, just not the UI. when the client got a wee bit of air - ie. when your ship is gone, the frames are drwan in fast forward mode while the server's preparing your next data package.
But with fleet battles, ugly reaction time on commands, that's normally server sided lag these days.
--*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 16:58:00 -
[66]
Originally by: WeetBix
But is the problem really the power of the computer? If there was a 200x200 battle, if everyone was running the lowest settings how much difference would that make to the performance of the game? Lots? Any? I've seen some videos of games like Supreme Commander and it has hundreds upon hundreds of units on screen at once, all needing highly advanced AI to operate as well. If my computer can handle that with ease, shouldn't it be able to render a few hundred low poly ships and missiles? It would be interesting to test a local version of Eve, pack the screen with 500 npc ships and have them all fire a missile at once. Would my computer crash? Would it perform perfectly? That would go a long way to answering the question I put forth above: Where does the performance issue really stem from?
Bah, grab a copy of Total Annihilation and play on a modern machine. I've turned the unit limit up to 1000 and the AIs used all their units. All 7 of them...
---
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
SengH
Black Omega Security
E.R.A
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 17:02:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: WeetBix
But is the problem really the power of the computer? If there was a 200x200 battle, if everyone was running the lowest settings how much difference would that make to the performance of the game? Lots? Any? I've seen some videos of games like Supreme Commander and it has hundreds upon hundreds of units on screen at once, all needing highly advanced AI to operate as well. If my computer can handle that with ease, shouldn't it be able to render a few hundred low poly ships and missiles? It would be interesting to test a local version of Eve, pack the screen with 500 npc ships and have them all fire a missile at once. Would my computer crash? Would it perform perfectly? That would go a long way to answering the question I put forth above: Where does the performance issue really stem from?
Bah, grab a copy of Total Annihilation and play on a modern machine. I've turned the unit limit up to 1000 and the AIs used all their units. All 7 of them...
Supreme commander 4tw. Anyways for all you naysayers saying the code cant handle it. 1 and a half years ago during FOE vs XETIC around the Obe/p3en area, 200v200 fleet battles were going easy with little to no lag. CCP borked somthing along the way.
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 17:06:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Tarri
But will the dragon code really help? I think CCP does not feel the pressure enough atm. We need to keep the pressure up to prevent CCP from becoming lazy.
40,000 players in China indicates that Dragon does make a differnce.
Of which none can fly a Dread, and hence they can hardly have PoS battles ;)
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SengH
Black Omega Security
E.R.A
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 17:10:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Tarri
But will the dragon code really help? I think CCP does not feel the pressure enough atm. We need to keep the pressure up to prevent CCP from becoming lazy.
40,000 players in China indicates that Dragon does make a differnce.
Of which none can fly a Dread, and hence they can hardly have PoS battles ;)
They can easily anchor a POS though.
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.08.07 17:13:00 -
[70]
Originally by: spurious signal
What is badly needed here is some hard information gathered from dedicated testing.
Someone with a high-end PC needs to monitor a number of things at their end while engaged in various sized fleet battles:
Processor use.
Memory use.
Bandwidth used.
Video RAM useage.
etc.
My feeling, from the nature of the lag and from my own personal bandwidth monitoring, is that the majority of the lag is client-side graphics lag. The bandwidth used by EVE really never seems to rise very high, most of the time it's at less than 5kbps, but I've not been in any huge fleet battles since I got my G15 keyboard (which allows me to monitor bandwidth use thanks to a small app).
Even with my rather shoddy machine, the time I stay frozen to load a PoS grid is always under 15 seconds. Client side latency is easy to measure, and in the worst of cases approaches 150-200 m/s (that's 5 FPS for you - doing something like zooming in on a fleetbattle with effects on). With some precautions, I haven't experienced anything clientside that's worth mentioning.
Module activation delays and lack of response to input commands can approach minutes in a lagged out fleetbattle. I do understand the problem of having 400 ships in one grid and relaying all those positions et cetera - and again the exponentional growth of load is exclusively on the server (the amount of data your client is sending is identical, the amount you're receiving while larger is still miniscule and not exponentially increased). But technical limitations aside, something is awefully wrong when it reaches current levels of sheer unplayability.
If Dragon/Unicode is really going to be the magic bullet, so be it. If not, this really should be one of the highest fixing prioiritys :o
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Doppleganger
Minmatar
Band of Builders Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.07 18:51:00 -
[71]
Originally by: WeetBix
Quick question: Is there a way to view the current FPS and Ping times? it would be interesting during lag hits to note what these numbers are.
Closest thing EvE has in game is ctrl-alt-shift-m
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.08.07 19:21:00 -
[72]
Ctrl-Alt-F for FPS only.
Both info windows eat badly into the client performance though. You certainly do not want to test those in tight situations.
--*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
FireLord
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.07 19:22:00 -
[73]
what about having the server, as a last resort, slow time down in the affected system? this has got to be preferable to the '30 minutes to activate a module' server lag of doom.
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Sha'blach
Amarr
Peregrinus Amarria
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Posted - 2006.08.07 19:37:00 -
[74]
You know, I was in a fleet battle a couple of weeks ago where there were 250 battleships and 100+ smaller ships in the system and I only experianced minor and I mean MINOR lag. So the problem most likely isnt eve or ccp, but your connection and the general location of the battle. Empire has more people so it's not smart to host large fleet battles, lower sec (0.4 and below) have less people and thus would make more sense to host a battle there.
Lets put it into technical terms via CCP's own announcements. Eve only puts out perhaps about a max of 1-5kb/s per ship, that data is sent to a relay station. Depending on your distance from the said hub, the longer the distance it must travel and the higher the ping. So lets say you've got 10 systems per 100mBit server, that's roughly 500 pilots, out of which an average 290 are actually in space doing much of anything. So that's 360kb/s total income average. That data then travels to the CCP main servers where it is computed and relayed back to you with updated data from the other players. often the data comming in is exponentially higher than the data you're sending out. THUS the faster your connection and the closer you are to a OC pipeline, the less the lag, also thus, the less pilots in the general constellation/region, the less the lag.
It's all really quite literally logic.
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Peregrinus Amarria
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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.08.07 21:15:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Sha'blach
You know, I was in a fleet battle a couple of weeks ago where there were 250 battleships and 100+ smaller ships in the system and I only experianced minor and I mean MINOR lag.
Were PoS involved?
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
1st Praetorian Guard
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Posted - 2006.08.07 21:26:00 -
[76]
Firstly, I havn't read all the posts, but here is my 2 cents on todays lag.
Calcualtions (yeah, obviously really).
Before the great turret rework, where suddenly large turrets couldn't hit small targets, there were much less lag.
So, to fix the lag, we could go back to those days and make "lesser" ships obsolete. Or we could entrust CCP with the optimization of these calculations.
And to those that think this game isn't programmed right, well why don't you make the "right" code then and sell it to CCP. I'm sure they will appriciate it very much, I know I will.
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AdamLC
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Posted - 2006.08.07 21:32:00 -
[77]
Out of alot of MMOs ive played EVE has to be one of the games that runs the best and can handle alot of client. I think CCP is ahead of most other MMOs. We will always have lag, and it is due to many things. Some people just don't understand that our current technology has limitations and its not always down to "code"
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Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.07 21:50:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
And to those that think this game isn't programmed right, well why don't you make the "right" code then and sell it to CCP. I'm sure they will appriciate it very much, I know I will.
HAHA, because that is not my job....
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Tarri
FACTA NON VERBA
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.07 21:51:00 -
[79]
Originally by: AdamLC
Out of alot of MMOs ive played EVE has to be one of the games that runs the best and can handle alot of client. I think CCP is ahead of most other MMOs. We will always have lag, and it is due to many things. Some people just don't understand that our current technology has limitations and its not always down to "code"
Hmmm, have you ever taken part in a large engagment?
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Zenst
Gallente
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.07 21:55:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Tarri
I started this game last year, and first I had really fun. But now i have seen multiple fleet battles and all I can say is that the lag kills all the fun.
Why are there capital ships if you canŠt use them right because of the lag, why are interceptors so fast if all you will do is flying in a straight line for minutes when trying to orbit something and so on...?
EVE is a game with a lot of different content so why can we only use like a small part of it. Diplomacy is normal in EVE and so there will be blobs if needed, but if the game canŠt support that without lag all becomes senseless. I would prefer WoW style "batttlefields" to this lagfest..... and that says alot.
Perhaps someone from CCP can answer this and offer a timeschedule which will show us when EVE will be fixed. I do hope they have one and donŠt try to feed us with new ships and candy so that we forget about the real problems. If lag is not solvable please tell us so that we donŠt waste our free time in trying to do things which will never be doable.
Cheers,
Tarri
Its not Lag - its bullet time. I dunno, people love the effect in the Matrix movies but add it too eve and....
As for fixing `lag` its a tough one as you never acualy realy ever fix it, mearly move/spread it around. Its also one of the nasty permance veriables which as any programmer will tell you is always perception based and one mans fast PC is another mans slowmo. Over all it moves 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Factor in the game growth and its doing well.
But could do better.
WTB Gang skill - Node's per gang - add's one mroe node dedicated to your gang per skill level :).
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Whelan Iskander
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Posted - 2006.08.08 11:05:00 -
[81]
To all people saying this is client side lag, and is induced by low-end clients or low-end graphics cards...behold the system requirements for Eve as viewed on this very site:
Windows« System 2000/XP OS
Intel Pentium« III 800 MHz or AMD Athlon 800 MHz
512 MB or more of RAM
DirectX« 9.0c (included) and latest video drivers
6.0 GB available HD space
4x CD-ROM drive
A 56k or better Internet connection
32 MB 3D graphics card with Hardware Transform and Lighting, such as NVIDIA« GeForceÖ 2 class card or above
So either Eve should run on these specs (normally, as described in the FAQ's, with all content as normal), or someone is telling a fib to get more monthly subscriptions...??
Personally, I don't think the nowadays computers have problems with the Eve Graphics. Networking hardware, inhouse cabling, ISP are all valid bottlenecks, yet I can't help to feel that a DB that crashes so much shouldn't have performance issues even when up and running...??
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kirjava
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.12 00:45:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Whelan Iskander
To all people saying this is client side lag, and is induced by low-end clients or low-end graphics cards...behold the system requirements for Eve as viewed on this very site:
Windows« System 2000/XP OS
Intel Pentium« III 800 MHz or AMD Athlon 800 MHz
512 MB or more of RAM
DirectX« 9.0c (included) and latest video drivers
6.0 GB available HD space
4x CD-ROM drive
A 56k or better Internet connection
32 MB 3D graphics card with Hardware Transform and Lighting, such as NVIDIA« GeForceÖ 2 class card or above
So either Eve should run on these specs (normally, as described in the FAQ's, with all content as normal), or someone is telling a fib to get more monthly subscriptions...??
Personally, I don't think the nowadays computers have problems with the Eve Graphics. Networking hardware, inhouse cabling, ISP are all valid bottlenecks, yet I can't help to feel that a DB that crashes so much shouldn't have performance issues even when up and running...??
My current system seriously outclasses that, my 8MBps connection probably isnt the problem, and yet eve still crashes. Perhaps we should get an option to remove those stars/backdrop? Maybe we should get an option for wireframes for those with bad graphics lag ect?
Peronaly, I wonder how much money it would cost CCP to get the proporsion of player base to node balance sorted out? And would we be prepared to all donate, say ú2 to CCP to perform said upgrade?
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