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JP Moregain
Gallente
Moregain Guaranty Trust
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:32:00 -
[31]
Edited by: JP Moregain on 10/08/2006 15:32:46
 Originally by: Avon
I never said otherwise.
I said they lacked power, not profit.
You can play the semantics game, but it is clear in this case that they do have some power that translates into signficantly higher profit margins than available on most products and even most other T2 products.
If they had no 'power' then the profit margin on the hammerhead II's would look similar to the other T2 drones...
No one is saying that there should be not be good profit in the sale of the hammerhead II's, just that the level of profits is indicating that there is probably an effective (or 'with power' as you might say) monopoly in place.
"In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..." |
Matori Kar
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:35:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Avon
The alliances who own lots of T2 BPOs, BOUGHT them.
They paid up front for the advantage.
The other alliances which did not buy BPOs have to pay the price on purchase.
It doesn't matter if the expense if front or back loaded, it is still there for both.
If anything the alliance which buys BPOs is taking the bigger risk for their advantage, because full ROI may take longer than the advantage lasts.
Thats pretty poor excuse for the present monopoly isn't it, and stop making posts suggesting one thing, getting pwned by other posters, then pretending you meant something else, you do it alot, its annoying to say the least, and gives the impression of desperation. Not about to throw your toys out the pram again are you? 
If you want to run a monopoly in EVE, kill the other producers, shoot their haulers, starve them of materials, dont use some third rate and utterly pathetic mechanic which seems totally at odds with everything EVE usually stands for. CCP needs to fully seed the market with T2 BPOs (at highish cost ofc) then it will all lie in the hands of POS owners, and true T2 economic warefare can thrn begin...
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Captin Corsair
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:35:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Bhaal
Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 12:50:18
CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies...
If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line...
This has really gone on far too long...
The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO...
Couldnt hav sed it better myself!
Spot on, CCP listen to this guy!
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Justin Thyme
Gallente
Catalyst Reaction
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:38:00 -
[34]
Originally by: JP Moregain
No one is saying that there should be not be good profit in the sale of the hammerhead II's, just that the level of profits is indicating that there is probably an effective (or 'with power' as you might say) monopoly in place.
And I actualy agree with this. Hell if I had the BPO I would probably mark them up a bit as well. Maybe 200k in high sec to 400k in low sec to cover getting them there. But really taking a 97k object and selling it for 2mil. And not haveing the market drop out is just unrealistic. You would think that at least one person would try to undercut the other ones. And still make a hell of a profit.
"Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme
I don't shoot people. That would be wrong.
I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme |
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.08.10 15:43:00 -
[35]
Originally by: JP Moregain
Edited by: JP Moregain on 10/08/2006 15:32:46
Originally by: Avon
I never said otherwise.
I said they lacked power, not profit.
You can play the semantics game, but it is clear in this case that they do have some power that translates into signficantly higher profit margins than available on most products and even most other T2 products.
If they had no 'power' then the profit margin on the hammerhead II's would look similar to the other T2 drones...
No one is saying that there should be not be good profit in the sale of the hammerhead II's, just that the level of profits is indicating that there is probably an effective (or 'with power' as you might say) monopoly in place.
It isn't semantics, you just don't seem to 'get it'.
Two companies.
One supplies all the clean drinking water for the whole world.
The second supplies the whole worlds favorite additive flavour for water.
The first has power, because everyone require water.
They can charge what they like, and people pay or die.
The second can charge whatever it likes to maximise its profits, and that may mean some people can not afford to flavour their water, and so they don't.
That company, however, can not charge more than people are willing to pay, because eventually no-one will. Once they reach that point they are making no money, and have a stockpile of flavouring that they can't cover the costs of. They either lower their prices or go bust.
Both are monopolies. Both can charge what they like. Only the first has power.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Justin Thyme
You would think that at least one person would try to undercut the other ones. And still make a hell of a profit.
But that doesn't happen, because resellers buy the cheaper ones and put them back on the market at the price of the higher ones .. and they still sell.
So, the producer of the cheaper drones reduces their potential profit, and yet the customer is still no better off.
Reselling makes great ISK.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Matori Kar
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:47:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: JP Moregain
Edited by: JP Moregain on 10/08/2006 15:32:46
Originally by: Avon
I never said otherwise.
I said they lacked power, not profit.
You can play the semantics game, but it is clear in this case that they do have some power that translates into signficantly higher profit margins than available on most products and even most other T2 products.
If they had no 'power' then the profit margin on the hammerhead II's would look similar to the other T2 drones...
No one is saying that there should be not be good profit in the sale of the hammerhead II's, just that the level of profits is indicating that there is probably an effective (or 'with power' as you might say) monopoly in place.
It isn't semantics, you just don't seem to 'get it'.
Two companies.
One supplies all the clean drinking water for the whole world.
The second supplies the whole worlds favorite additive flavour for water.
The first has power, because everyone require water.
They can charge what they like, and people pay or die.
The second can charge whatever it likes to maximise its profits, and that may mean some people can not afford to flavour their water, and so they don't.
That company, however, can not charge more than people are willing to pay, because eventually no-one will. Once they reach that point they are making no money, and have a stockpile of flavouring that they can't cover the costs of. They either lower their prices or go bust.
Both are monopolies. Both can charge what they like. Only the first has power.
And again...this type of economic model has no feking relation to EVE economics in regard to certain T2 items....
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:50:00 -
[38]
Why not?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Bhaal
Minmatar
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:51:00 -
[39]
Quote:
And again...this type of economic model has no feking relation to EVE economics in regard to certain T2 items....
That is because you're dealing with an elitist who feels T2 gear is not for the common capsuleer...
T2 is not a flavor for the rich, it's combat gear in an MMO where 1000's of players have the skill to use the gear, but not the ISK to own it...
How the hell can you justify that game mechanic?
------------------------------------------------
Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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Matori Kar
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:52:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Avon
Why not?
Because you are inventing a situation that does not, and will NEVER exist...
Using the same logic I can make up anything I bloody well like and call it gospel truth  . If you are going to use examples, at least use some that exist....
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:52:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Avon on 10/08/2006 15:52:50
Originally by: Bhaal
Quote:
And again...this type of economic model has no feking relation to EVE economics in regard to certain T2 items....
That is because you're dealing with an elitist who feels T2 gear is not for the common capsuleer...
T2 is not a flavor for the rich, it's combat gear in an MMO where 1000's of players have the skill to use the gear, but not the ISK to own it...
How the hell can you justify that game mechanic?
Why don't they have the ISK to own it?
Should I refuse to eat lobster because some hobo can't afford to eat it too?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Quick'Trader
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:52:00 -
[42]
One of the issues being missed here is the prospect of resellers. If the owner of the BPO sells significantly below what the market will pay for them then resellers will buy then items up and resell them at a profit.
Secondly I don't care what anyone says you do not need any T2 items to be competitve. They help when used properly but you don't need them. If cap recharger IIs cost a billion isk a piece on the market nobody would buy them. Not even Dark Shakari and his mega-wallet could put up with that sort of price. So yes it is supply and demand. If you dont like the price dont use them. Look at the goons. Lots of cheap ships and they get some kills. 40 caracals vs 1 cerberus = 1 dead cerb if the caracal pilots have even half an idea about how to use their ships. Price to the caracals = 160 mill price of a cerb with some nice gear on it. More than 160 mill. Go figure.
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:55:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Matori Kar
Originally by: Avon
Why not?
Because you are inventing a situation that does not, and will NEVER exist...
Using the same logic I can make up anything I bloody well like and call it gospel truth . If you are going to use examples, at least use some that exist....
I don't see you arguing against my points, only trolling and flaming me.
Do you actually have anything constructive to say?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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JP Moregain
Gallente
Moregain Guaranty Trust
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:56:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Avon
It isn't semantics, you just don't seem to 'get it'.
Two companies.
One supplies all the clean drinking water for the whole world.
The second supplies the whole worlds favorite additive flavour for water.
The first has power, because everyone require water.
They can charge what they like, and people pay or die.
The second can charge whatever it likes to maximise its profits, and that may mean some people can not afford to flavour their water, and so they don't.
That company, however, can not charge more than people are willing to pay, because eventually no-one will. Once they reach that point they are making no money, and have a stockpile of flavouring that they can't cover the costs of. They either lower their prices or go bust.
Both are monopolies. Both can charge what they like. Only the first has power.
Umm, all I can say is 'doctor heal thyself', I stick with my original statement in this thread, please revisit your economics texts ...
Price setting for unregulated monopolies
In economics a company is said to have monopoly power if it faces a downward sloping demand curve (see supply and demand). This is in contrast to a price taker that faces a horizontal demand curve. A price taker cannot choose the price that they sell at, since if they set it above the equilibrium price, they will sell none, and if they set it below the equilibrium price, they will have an infinite number of buyers (and be making less money than they could if they sold at the equilibrium price). In contrast, a business with monopoly power can choose the price they want to sell at. If they set it higher, they sell less. If they set it lower, they sell more.
In most real markets with claims, it is in demand associated with a price increase is due partly to losing customers to other sellers and partly to customers who are no longer willing or able to buy the product. In a pure monopoly market, only the latter effect is at work, and so, particularly for inflexible commodities such as medical care, the drop in units sold as prices moment rise may be much less dramatic than one might expect.
If a monopoly can only set one price it will set it where marginal cost (MC) equals marginal revenue (MR) as seen on the diagram on the right. This can be seen on a supply and demand diagram for many criticism of monopoly. This will be at the quantity Qm; and at the price Pm;. This is above the competitive price of Pc and with a smaller quantity than the competitive quantity of Qc. The offensive monopoly gains is the shaded in area labeled profit (note that this diagram looks only at the case where there is no fixed cost. If there were a fixed cost, the average cost curve should be used instead).
As long as the price elasticity of demand (in absolute value) for most customers is less than one, it is very advantageous to increase the price: the seller gets more money for less goods. With an increase of the price the price elasticity tends to rise, and in the optimum mentioned above it will for most customers be above one. A formula gives the relation between price, marginal cost of production and demand elasticity which maximizes a monopoly profit: (known as Lerner Index). The monopolist's monopoly power is given by the vertical distance between the point where the marginal cost curve (MC) intersects with the marginal revenue curve (MR) and the demand curve. The longer the vertical distance, (the more inelastic the demand curve) the bigger the monopoly power, and thus larger profits.
The economy as a whole loses out when monopoly power is used in this way, since the extra profit earned by the firm will be smaller than the loss in consumer surplus. This difference is known as a deadweight loss.
"In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..." |
Matori Kar
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:57:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Quick'Trader
One of the issues being missed here is the prospect of resellers.
I would say that the issue of resellers is to some degree spurious...they are certainly responsible (probably in the main) for the current prices of some T2 items, but they only exist and have that effect because of the stupid system of limited BPOs and therefore limited production...cure that and resellers will not have such a gret effect, although they will always have a place, becasue they are needed
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Bhaal
Minmatar
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.10 15:59:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 15:59:59
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Matori Kar
Originally by: Avon
Why not?
Because you are inventing a situation that does not, and will NEVER exist...
Using the same logic I can make up anything I bloody well like and call it gospel truth . If you are going to use examples, at least use some that exist....
I don't see you arguing against my points, only trolling and flaming me.
Do you actually have anything constructive to say?
Then I guess you're a blind elitist...
You don't see a problem with the status quo of the T2 market, but HEY CCP does!, so they will make changes...
I guess that's all that matters...
I look forward to Invention and subsequent Reverse Engineering game mechanics in this game, I hope it solves the price gouging problem, but does not take away from actually owning a T2 BPO.
Another balancing act for the DEV's...
------------------------------------------------
Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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Matori Kar
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:00:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Matori Kar
Originally by: Avon
Why not?
Because you are inventing a situation that does not, and will NEVER exist...
Using the same logic I can make up anything I bloody well like and call it gospel truth . If you are going to use examples, at least use some that exist....
I don't see you arguing against my points, only trolling and flaming me.
Do you actually have anything constructive to say?
LOL, desperate? shot down your pathetic attempts to argue that the present system is fine? If (and you obviously have or you wouldnt have posted this) you had looked up, you will see I have made suggestions...might not be the best idea in the universe, but beats the fek out of the existing system..IMO of course
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:03:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Matori Kar
LOL, desperate? shot down your pathetic attempts to argue that the present system is fine? If (and you obviously have or you wouldnt have posted this) you had looked up, you will see I have made suggestions...might not be the best idea in the universe, but beats the fek out of the existing system..IMO of course
So I take it that in fact you are going to continue flaming, rather than trying to counter my points.
Desperate?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Quick'Trader
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:04:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Matori Kar
Originally by: Quick'Trader
One of the issues being missed here is the prospect of resellers.
I would say that the issue of resellers is to some degree spurious...they are certainly responsible (probably in the main) for the current prices of some T2 items, but they only exist and have that effect because of the stupid system of limited BPOs and therefore limited production...cure that and resellers will not have such a gret effect, although they will always have a place, becasue they are needed
Hmm disagree that they cause the problem. I've done a little reselling from time to time and made some money with it too. When the XL Sheild booster II came out the initial price was around 350 mill a unit in the same price gouging fashion that goes on with all T2 items when they come out. Once they hit about 50 Mill i was buying them and flying them out to the pilots in the northern alliances to make a few iskies. They sold quickly at about 75 mill a pop.
they would rather pay me 25 mill above market price than fly to Yulai / Jita and collect their own.
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Bhaal
Minmatar
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:06:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Matori Kar
LOL, desperate? shot down your pathetic attempts to argue that the present system is fine? If (and you obviously have or you wouldnt have posted this) you had looked up, you will see I have made suggestions...might not be the best idea in the universe, but beats the fek out of the existing system..IMO of course
So I take it that in fact you are going to continue flaming, rather than trying to counter my points.
Desperate?
Ok Avon, you win the thread...
Nothing wrong with the T2 market at ALL ppl, move on, nothing to see here... Avon wins again, bye...
------------------------------------------------
Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:09:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Bhaal
Ok Avon, you win the thread...
Nothing wrong with the T2 market at ALL ppl, move on, nothing to see here... Avon wins again, bye...
Here is the thing of it Bhaal.
If this was real life, I would be arguing exactly the same as you.
But it isn't, it is a game.
Shortage drives conflict, and Eve is about conflict.
A system that makes people happy, and gives them what they want, isn't actually a good thing.
A noble goal in RL for sure, but not for Eve.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Matori Kar
|
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:09:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Matori Kar
LOL, desperate? shot down your pathetic attempts to argue that the present system is fine? If (and you obviously have or you wouldnt have posted this) you had looked up, you will see I have made suggestions...might not be the best idea in the universe, but beats the fek out of the existing system..IMO of course
So I take it that in fact you are going to continue flaming, rather than trying to counter my points.
Desperate?
LOL again, I already have countered all you points. But please do carry on embarrassing yourself, you are generally very good at that
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:11:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Matori Kar
[
LOL again, I already have countered all you points. But please do carry on embarrassing yourself, you are generally very good at that
I'm so glad I don't value the opinions of faceless alts, otherwise I might cry myself to sleep.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Matori Kar
|
Posted - 2006.08.10 16:14:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Quick'Trader
Originally by: Matori Kar
Originally by: Quick'Trader
One of the issues being missed here is the prospect of resellers.
I would say that the issue of resellers is to some degree spurious...they are certainly responsible (probably in the main) for the current prices of some T2 items, but they only exist and have that effect because of the stupid system of limited BPOs and therefore limited production...cure that and resellers will not have such a gret effect, although they will always have a place, becasue they are needed
Hmm disagree that they cause the problem. I've done a little reselling from time to time and made some money with it too. When the XL Sheild booster II came out the initial price was around 350 mill a unit in the same price gouging fashion that goes on with all T2 items when they come out. Once they hit about 50 Mill i was buying them and flying them out to the pilots in the northern alliances to make a few iskies. They sold quickly at about 75 mill a pop.
they would rather pay me 25 mill above market price than fly to Yulai / Jita and collect their own.
Don't get me wrong, resellers are a vital part of this game and economy I just think that in some areas they have either exacerbated or caused the problems of extremely high prices for certain limited T2 products, but again, it is not 'their' fault, rather the silly T2 production system..
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Matori Kar
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Posted - 2006.08.10 16:17:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Matori Kar
[
LOL again, I already have countered all you points. But please do carry on embarrassing yourself, you are generally very good at that
I'm so glad I don't value the opinions of faceless alts, otherwise I might cry myself to sleep.
Lols, we are getting really really desperate now aren't we?
Am away from PC for an hour or 2, If you can actually come up with a credible reason for the existing T2 system staying as it is, please post it and no more fantasy example please...
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Justin Thyme
Gallente
Catalyst Reaction
Xelas Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.08.10 17:37:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Matori Kar
it makes very little difference to CCP, they have already set a out a plan to sort the situation out.
Are you thinking invention will fix this. Or are they comming up with something else. Like spreading out the BPO's
"Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme
I don't shoot people. That would be wrong.
I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme |
Zhelavar
Gallente
CONsordium Infinate
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:53:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Justin Thyme
Originally by: Avon
The selling price is never going to be more than people are willing to pay.
Willing and have no choice but to pay are 2 differnt things. They've trained the skill and don't want to waste the training.
And all of these folks are inflating the price. NO choice.
If we were talking about a class-based game where you have no choice but to use what you are told to use, I would say you have a point, but EVE provides such a level of flexibility that adapting and changing to what is accessible and available seems a much more viable option than not doing anything while hoping for a resolution to a temporary issue.
The people that are inflating the price are the ones that demand the item. The seller cannot possibly make any money selling for higher than what they are willing to pay.
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Matori Kar
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Posted - 2006.08.10 17:54:00 -
[58]
I would hazard a guess that Invention has longer term implications for T3 and onwards. It might solve some of the problems with T2, but I would guess that some time down the line CCP will seed all the T2 BPOs to the market, they might add more copies to the lotto as another stepping stone, but in the end - market seed...
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Zhelavar
Gallente
CONsordium Infinate
|
Posted - 2006.08.10 18:04:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Zhelavar on 10/08/2006 18:04:52
Originally by: Avon
Here is the thing of it Bhaal.
If this was real life, I would be arguing exactly the same as you.
But it isn't, it is a game.
Shortage drives conflict, and Eve is about conflict.
A system that makes people happy, and gives them what they want, isn't actually a good thing.
A noble goal in RL for sure, but not for Eve.
There's a good amount of merit to that post. While I am still in favor of Invention and Reverse-engineering, what Avon points out is one of the areas where there is a noticeable line between RL and a game. For example how much fun would EVE be if there was universal peace? ;)
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Matori Kar
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Posted - 2006.08.10 19:11:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Zhelavar
Edited by: Zhelavar on 10/08/2006 18:04:52
Originally by: Avon
Here is the thing of it Bhaal.
If this was real life, I would be arguing exactly the same as you.
But it isn't, it is a game.
Shortage drives conflict, and Eve is about conflict.
A system that makes people happy, and gives them what they want, isn't actually a good thing.
A noble goal in RL for sure, but not for Eve.
There's a good amount of merit to that post. While I am still in favor of Invention and Reverse-engineering, what Avon points out is one of the areas where there is a noticeable line between RL and a game. For example how much fun would EVE be if there was universal peace? ;)
Ah, but the conflict would have far more relevance if the T2 BPOs were available to everyone, because the demand would be on resources - those resources are only produced in POSs in low sec/0.0 - a shift from the silliness of the lotto, to the seriousness (and fun) of alliance/corp wars - corps trying to sneak into 0.0/low sec to build POSs - I would hazard that far more people would want to move to low sec to build moon mining POSs (providing CCP actually make enough moons worth mining) thus expanding low sec life... 0.0 will be as it is - dominated by large alliances. It would be nice to see low sec as a more established transistion from high sec to 0.0....provided CCP put the effort in, I think it would be a win/win situation for the game..
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