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Justin Thyme Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:48:00 - [1] Edited by: Justin Thyme on 10/08/2006 12:48:46 I want to know who has all the Hammerhead 2 BPO's. IÆm thinking a multi Alliance force needs to find these guys in space and have a "chat" with them. You can only get these kinds of prices by one person (corp./alliance) having them all, or by all the ones having them choosing to work together to keep the price high. I mean the base price on these is under 100k and they are selling for 1.6 to 2 mil. This is in Empire space. Looks like a bad seeding of the BPO here. The other T2 Mediums aren't even close to being this over priced. Heavy T2Æs cost less. "Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:49:00 - [2] Demand go up, supply stay same, price go up. This happens whether one person owns all the bpo's, or nobody has more than one. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:50:00 - [3] Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 12:50:18 CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies... If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line... This has really gone on far too long... The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Justin Thyme Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:52:00 - [4] Edited by: Justin Thyme on 10/08/2006 12:52:41 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Demand go up, supply stay same, price go up. This happens whether one person owns all the bpo's, or nobody has more than one. The suppy of them is fine. They take no time to make. And there are tons of them on the market. This is all artificial inflation "Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:00:00 - [5] Originally by: Bhaal CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies... If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line... This has really gone on far too long... The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO... Invention is already going to solve that problem by raising supply on the most overvalued items... I don't understand why everyone wants Hammerheads. They're not that great. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:03:00 - [6] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Bhaal CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies... If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line... This has really gone on far too long... The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO... Invention is already going to solve that problem by raising supply on the most overvalued items... I don't understand why everyone wants Hammerheads. They're not that great. I'm a bit skeptical about the whole invention thing. Seems to me when the profit margin tanks enough, using Invention to make your own T2 items will cost more than just buying them from those who have the BPO... So you can train up a boatload of skills, and they will only be useful for a short period of time... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:05:00 - [7] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Bhaal CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies... If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line... This has really gone on far too long... The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO... Invention is already going to solve that problem by raising supply on the most overvalued items... I don't understand why everyone wants Hammerheads. They're not that great. I'm a bit skeptical about the whole invention thing. Seems to me when the profit margin tanks enough, using Invention to make your own T2 items will cost more than just buying them from those who have the BPO... So you can train up a boatload of skills, and they will only be useful for a short period of time... No, the point of invention is that its limited. Only enough volume will be possible to affect a small number of items. Most T2 items will not be affected. Cap IIs, for example, will probably tank because that will be the first thing that everyone rushes to make. But when they only make 2m profit, people will go make 1mn MWD IIs, and so on, until all of the most insanely overpriced items have dropped to "reasonable" margins. These margins may still be quite high (millions) but not tens of millions. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Justin Thyme Edited by: Justin Thyme on 10/08/2006 12:52:41 Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Demand go up, supply stay same, price go up. This happens whether one person owns all the bpo's, or nobody has more than one. The suppy of them is fine. They take no time to make. And there are tons of them on the market. Then there is no problem. If people are willing to pay current prices, they will. If they aren't, the sellers will make no money, and be forced to drop the prices in order to sell. Even if you HAVE a total monopoly, you STILL cannot buck the market. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:09:00 - [9] Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 13:10:18 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Bhaal CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies... If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line... This has really gone on far too long... The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO... Invention is already going to solve that problem by raising supply on the most overvalued items... I don't understand why everyone wants Hammerheads. They're not that great. I'm a bit skeptical about the whole invention thing. Seems to me when the profit margin tanks enough, using Invention to make your own T2 items will cost more than just buying them from those who have the BPO... So you can train up a boatload of skills, and they will only be useful for a short period of time... No, the point of invention is that its limited. Only enough volume will be possible to affect a small number of items. Most T2 items will not be affected. Cap IIs, for example, will probably tank because that will be the first thing that everyone rushes to make. But when they only make 2m profit, people will go make 1mn MWD IIs, and so on, until all of the most insanely overpriced items have dropped to "reasonable" margins. These margins may still be quite high (millions) but not tens of millions. I guess it depends on how long, and how many inventors it takes to drive down prices... I have a character ready to pounce on this, so I'm very interested... (Think of all the other T2 lottery haters who are rdy to pounce as well...) ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
JP Beauregard Gallente Pilkington Communications	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:17:00 - [10] I don't quite get why people would ever pay money for ridiculously overpriced T2 drones when rats will voluntarily give you a nearly unlimited supply of FREE T1 drones that you can just afford to lose. Boycott the muppets. ** PILCO - We Service Brains of All Sizes **
Powder Monkey	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:19:00 - [11] CCP is a dictatorship alliance !!
Zaphod Jones Celtic Anarchy	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:24:00 - [12] well I know where two of the Hammerhead II BPO's are, and I get my drones from them at very nice prices. this helps as I keep losing them zaphod pics of Eris without her pink bits
Justin Thyme Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Zaphod Jones well I know where two of the Hammerhead II BPO's are, and I get my drones from them at very nice prices. this helps as I keep losing them zaphod Who are they and what do you consider "nice prices" ? "Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 12:50:18 CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies... If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line... This has really gone on far too long... The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO... Why? The selling price is never going to be more than people are willing to pay. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Justin Thyme Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Avon Why? The selling price is never going to be more than people are willing to pay. Willing and have no choice but to pay are 2 differnt things. They've trained the skill and don't want to waste the training. And all of these folks are inflating the price. NO choice. "Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:28:00 - [16] Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 14:28:01 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 12:50:18 CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies... If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line... This has really gone on far too long... The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO... Why? The selling price is never going to be more than people are willing to pay. Well, CCP would not be looking to implement invention & reverse engineering if they thought the status quo was ok... Only T2 ships I use are the ones my Corp has the BPO's for, I'd never consider outright buying any T2 ship... I'm sure a lot of ppl feel the same way, hence the price IS too high for many players IMO... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Kilo Paskaa Thugs 4 less	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:31:00 - [17] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Bhaal CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies... If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line... This has really gone on far too long... The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO... Invention is already going to solve that problem by raising supply on the most overvalued items... I don't understand why everyone wants Hammerheads. They're not that great. Biggest damage modifier. around 1.9 i remember correctly.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Justin Thyme Willing and have no choice but to pay are 2 differnt things. Yes, they are. People do have a choice, and they choose to pay. If they didn't pay, the prices would drop (or the producers would end up making no money) Just because I have a driving license does not mean that Porsche should sell me a car for the same price as my BMW. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:43:00 - [19] Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 14:43:41 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Justin Thyme Willing and have no choice but to pay are 2 differnt things. Yes, they are. People do have a choice, and they choose to pay. If they didn't pay, the prices would drop (or the producers would end up making no money) Just because I have a driving license does not mean that Porsche should sell me a car for the same price as my BMW. Well, real world Monoploies are bad, Mkay... And governments come down on them... Looks like CCP (EVE Government) is going to finally act on the matter... We'll see what happens. I for one hope the days of 500% profit gouging never return... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:47:00 - [20] A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:52:00 - [21] Edited by: Andargor theWise on 10/08/2006 14:53:26 Originally by: Kilo Paskaa Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't understand why everyone wants Hammerheads. They're not that great. Biggest damage modifier. around 1.9 i remember correctly. Thermal damage only, less effective against a lot of rats, and always tanked in PvP. Tracking and range profiles are different for each drone type, some hit from further, some hit more on fast moving targets. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. The problem is that we don't have accurate stats on the damage drones deal, hence everyone throw themselves on the highest damage mod. Their mistake to make, and T2 owners to benefit from. Point is, the price is as high as people are willing to pay. -
Justin Thyme Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Justin Thyme Willing and have no choice but to pay are 2 differnt things. Yes, they are. People do have a choice, and they choose to pay. If they didn't pay, the prices would drop (or the producers would end up making no money) Just because I have a driving license does not mean that Porsche should sell me a car for the same price as my BMW. And there is a moral difference between Extortion and profit. They buy them because they need them. And the price is where it is because of racketeering and collusion. If you have T2 drone skills there is no ...Less expensive alterative. Other than learning a different races drones. And even those are inflated, but not as much. So your driverÆs license bit doesn't work. This situation is more like this. You spent money to go from driving a motorcycle to learning to drive a car And porche is the only person making cars. Or Porche and Audie and Bill are the only ones making the only car you can use with your new licence. And all 3 have decided that they have you by the short hairs so they are going to extort you for the money. A little differnt than choicing between a porche and a bmw. OR a chevy. This is a true and artificialy inflated market. "Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:53:00 - [23] If you don't want to pay 1,6 million for a Hammerhead, don't. It's as simple as that. Noone is forcing you to buy them. It's a free market. I don't see why Hammerheads are so awesome though.. they are ****e for PvP, and there's only really one rat faction where they are better than the others.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:54:00 - [24] Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 14:54:18 Originally by: Avon A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. So all the oil companies who are merging & price gouging do not hold a Monopoly? Some would argue with you that T2 is as necessary as filling up your gas tank and going to work. T2 has been in the game long enough now, where it no longer needs to be only for the top 1%... T2 is becoming a requirement for 0.0 alliance warfare... Just like gas is a requirement for me to drive to work everyday. I have no public transportation that could do that for me, so driving myself is a requirement... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Demand go up, supply stay same, price go up. This happens whether one person owns all the bpo's, or nobody has more than one. Supply is purposely limited... thus demand goes up. CCP needs a way for these bpos to be limited. Rather a license to create X amount in X amount of time. If you dont build them, the bpo is trashed and tossed out again to another player. This would solve mnay problems.
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Avon A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. Alliances with their own T2 BPOs can produce to alliance members at cost (which is pretty cheap). Alliances without certain BPOs need to buy finished products from the market (up to 1000% mark up on some items). Alliance A uses loads of cheap self produced T2 items, Alliance B, C and D need to buy said items in order to COMPETE on an equal basis.....NEED!! Silly boy, you can't use RL ideas of supply and demand in EVE, the economy, especially in relation to T2 production, bares absolutely no resemblance to RL.
JP Moregain Gallente Moregain Guaranty Trust	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Avon A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. Sir, You might want to brush up on your Economics. You can have a monopoly that does not supply required goods and it still can earn 'excess' profits. The market could clearly become more efficient for some of the T2 items without driving people from producing same (and if that happened the price would go up again...) "In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..."
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:18:00 - [28] Edited by: Avon on 10/08/2006 15:19:42 Originally by: Matori Kar Originally by: Avon A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. Alliances with their own T2 BPOs can produce to alliance members at cost (which is pretty cheap). Alliances without certain BPOs need to buy finished products from the market (up to 1000% mark up on some items). Alliance A uses loads of cheap self produced T2 items, Alliance B, C and D need to buy said items in order to COMPETE on an equal basis.....NEED!! Silly boy, you can't use RL ideas of supply and demand in EVE, the economy, especially in relation to T2 production, bares absolutely no resemblance to RL. The alliances who own lots of T2 BPOs, BOUGHT them. They paid up front for the advantage. The other alliances which did not buy BPOs have to pay the price on purchase. It doesn't matter if the expense if front or back loaded, it is still there for both. If anything the alliance which buys BPOs is taking the bigger risk for their advantage, because full ROI may take longer than the advantage lasts. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:19:00 - [29] Originally by: JP Moregain Originally by: Avon A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. Sir, You might want to brush up on your Economics. You can have a monopoly that does not supply required goods and it still can earn 'excess' profits. I never said otherwise. I said they lacked power, not profit. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:22:00 - [30] Originally by: CCP Hammer maybe itÆs time that T2 become a sort of baseline Linkage Maybe CCP do realise that the present system has become plain silly and out of date, I dont hold out much hope for the Invention system though...
JP Moregain Gallente Moregain Guaranty Trust	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:32:00 - [31] Edited by: JP Moregain on 10/08/2006 15:32:46 Originally by: Avon I never said otherwise. I said they lacked power, not profit. You can play the semantics game, but it is clear in this case that they do have some power that translates into signficantly higher profit margins than available on most products and even most other T2 products. If they had no 'power' then the profit margin on the hammerhead II's would look similar to the other T2 drones... No one is saying that there should be not be good profit in the sale of the hammerhead II's, just that the level of profits is indicating that there is probably an effective (or 'with power' as you might say) monopoly in place. "In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..."
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:35:00 - [32] Originally by: Avon The alliances who own lots of T2 BPOs, BOUGHT them. They paid up front for the advantage. The other alliances which did not buy BPOs have to pay the price on purchase. It doesn't matter if the expense if front or back loaded, it is still there for both. If anything the alliance which buys BPOs is taking the bigger risk for their advantage, because full ROI may take longer than the advantage lasts. Thats pretty poor excuse for the present monopoly isn't it, and stop making posts suggesting one thing, getting pwned by other posters, then pretending you meant something else, you do it alot, its annoying to say the least, and gives the impression of desperation. Not about to throw your toys out the pram again are you? If you want to run a monopoly in EVE, kill the other producers, shoot their haulers, starve them of materials, dont use some third rate and utterly pathetic mechanic which seems totally at odds with everything EVE usually stands for. CCP needs to fully seed the market with T2 BPOs (at highish cost ofc) then it will all lie in the hands of POS owners, and true T2 economic warefare can thrn begin...
Captin Corsair	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:35:00 - [33] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 12:50:18 CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies... If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line... This has really gone on far too long... The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO... Couldnt hav sed it better myself! Spot on, CCP listen to this guy!
Justin Thyme Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:38:00 - [34] Originally by: JP Moregain No one is saying that there should be not be good profit in the sale of the hammerhead II's, just that the level of profits is indicating that there is probably an effective (or 'with power' as you might say) monopoly in place. And I actualy agree with this. Hell if I had the BPO I would probably mark them up a bit as well. Maybe 200k in high sec to 400k in low sec to cover getting them there. But really taking a 97k object and selling it for 2mil. And not haveing the market drop out is just unrealistic. You would think that at least one person would try to undercut the other ones. And still make a hell of a profit. "Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:43:00 - [35] Originally by: JP Moregain Edited by: JP Moregain on 10/08/2006 15:32:46 Originally by: Avon I never said otherwise. I said they lacked power, not profit. You can play the semantics game, but it is clear in this case that they do have some power that translates into signficantly higher profit margins than available on most products and even most other T2 products. If they had no 'power' then the profit margin on the hammerhead II's would look similar to the other T2 drones... No one is saying that there should be not be good profit in the sale of the hammerhead II's, just that the level of profits is indicating that there is probably an effective (or 'with power' as you might say) monopoly in place. It isn't semantics, you just don't seem to 'get it'. Two companies. One supplies all the clean drinking water for the whole world. The second supplies the whole worlds favorite additive flavour for water. The first has power, because everyone require water. They can charge what they like, and people pay or die. The second can charge whatever it likes to maximise its profits, and that may mean some people can not afford to flavour their water, and so they don't. That company, however, can not charge more than people are willing to pay, because eventually no-one will. Once they reach that point they are making no money, and have a stockpile of flavouring that they can't cover the costs of. They either lower their prices or go bust. Both are monopolies. Both can charge what they like. Only the first has power. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:45:00 - [36] Originally by: Justin Thyme You would think that at least one person would try to undercut the other ones. And still make a hell of a profit. But that doesn't happen, because resellers buy the cheaper ones and put them back on the market at the price of the higher ones .. and they still sell. So, the producer of the cheaper drones reduces their potential profit, and yet the customer is still no better off. Reselling makes great ISK. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:47:00 - [37] Originally by: Avon Originally by: JP Moregain Edited by: JP Moregain on 10/08/2006 15:32:46 Originally by: Avon I never said otherwise. I said they lacked power, not profit. You can play the semantics game, but it is clear in this case that they do have some power that translates into signficantly higher profit margins than available on most products and even most other T2 products. If they had no 'power' then the profit margin on the hammerhead II's would look similar to the other T2 drones... No one is saying that there should be not be good profit in the sale of the hammerhead II's, just that the level of profits is indicating that there is probably an effective (or 'with power' as you might say) monopoly in place. It isn't semantics, you just don't seem to 'get it'. Two companies. One supplies all the clean drinking water for the whole world. The second supplies the whole worlds favorite additive flavour for water. The first has power, because everyone require water. They can charge what they like, and people pay or die. The second can charge whatever it likes to maximise its profits, and that may mean some people can not afford to flavour their water, and so they don't. That company, however, can not charge more than people are willing to pay, because eventually no-one will. Once they reach that point they are making no money, and have a stockpile of flavouring that they can't cover the costs of. They either lower their prices or go bust. Both are monopolies. Both can charge what they like. Only the first has power. And again...this type of economic model has no feking relation to EVE economics in regard to certain T2 items....
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:50:00 - [38] Why not? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:51:00 - [39] Quote: And again...this type of economic model has no feking relation to EVE economics in regard to certain T2 items.... That is because you're dealing with an elitist who feels T2 gear is not for the common capsuleer... T2 is not a flavor for the rich, it's combat gear in an MMO where 1000's of players have the skill to use the gear, but not the ISK to own it... How the hell can you justify that game mechanic? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Avon Why not? Because you are inventing a situation that does not, and will NEVER exist... Using the same logic I can make up anything I bloody well like and call it gospel truth . If you are going to use examples, at least use some that exist....
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:52:00 - [41] Edited by: Avon on 10/08/2006 15:52:50 Originally by: Bhaal Quote: And again...this type of economic model has no feking relation to EVE economics in regard to certain T2 items.... That is because you're dealing with an elitist who feels T2 gear is not for the common capsuleer... T2 is not a flavor for the rich, it's combat gear in an MMO where 1000's of players have the skill to use the gear, but not the ISK to own it... How the hell can you justify that game mechanic? Why don't they have the ISK to own it? Should I refuse to eat lobster because some hobo can't afford to eat it too? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Quick'Trader	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:52:00 - [42] One of the issues being missed here is the prospect of resellers. If the owner of the BPO sells significantly below what the market will pay for them then resellers will buy then items up and resell them at a profit. Secondly I don't care what anyone says you do not need any T2 items to be competitve. They help when used properly but you don't need them. If cap recharger IIs cost a billion isk a piece on the market nobody would buy them. Not even Dark Shakari and his mega-wallet could put up with that sort of price. So yes it is supply and demand. If you dont like the price dont use them. Look at the goons. Lots of cheap ships and they get some kills. 40 caracals vs 1 cerberus = 1 dead cerb if the caracal pilots have even half an idea about how to use their ships. Price to the caracals = 160 mill price of a cerb with some nice gear on it. More than 160 mill. Go figure.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:55:00 - [43] Originally by: Matori Kar Originally by: Avon Why not? Because you are inventing a situation that does not, and will NEVER exist... Using the same logic I can make up anything I bloody well like and call it gospel truth . If you are going to use examples, at least use some that exist.... I don't see you arguing against my points, only trolling and flaming me. Do you actually have anything constructive to say? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
JP Moregain Gallente Moregain Guaranty Trust	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Avon It isn't semantics, you just don't seem to 'get it'. Two companies. One supplies all the clean drinking water for the whole world. The second supplies the whole worlds favorite additive flavour for water. The first has power, because everyone require water. They can charge what they like, and people pay or die. The second can charge whatever it likes to maximise its profits, and that may mean some people can not afford to flavour their water, and so they don't. That company, however, can not charge more than people are willing to pay, because eventually no-one will. Once they reach that point they are making no money, and have a stockpile of flavouring that they can't cover the costs of. They either lower their prices or go bust. Both are monopolies. Both can charge what they like. Only the first has power. Umm, all I can say is 'doctor heal thyself', I stick with my original statement in this thread, please revisit your economics texts ... Price setting for unregulated monopolies In economics a company is said to have monopoly power if it faces a downward sloping demand curve (see supply and demand). This is in contrast to a price taker that faces a horizontal demand curve. A price taker cannot choose the price that they sell at, since if they set it above the equilibrium price, they will sell none, and if they set it below the equilibrium price, they will have an infinite number of buyers (and be making less money than they could if they sold at the equilibrium price). In contrast, a business with monopoly power can choose the price they want to sell at. If they set it higher, they sell less. If they set it lower, they sell more. In most real markets with claims, it is in demand associated with a price increase is due partly to losing customers to other sellers and partly to customers who are no longer willing or able to buy the product. In a pure monopoly market, only the latter effect is at work, and so, particularly for inflexible commodities such as medical care, the drop in units sold as prices moment rise may be much less dramatic than one might expect. If a monopoly can only set one price it will set it where marginal cost (MC) equals marginal revenue (MR) as seen on the diagram on the right. This can be seen on a supply and demand diagram for many criticism of monopoly. This will be at the quantity Qm; and at the price Pm;. This is above the competitive price of Pc and with a smaller quantity than the competitive quantity of Qc. The offensive monopoly gains is the shaded in area labeled profit (note that this diagram looks only at the case where there is no fixed cost. If there were a fixed cost, the average cost curve should be used instead). As long as the price elasticity of demand (in absolute value) for most customers is less than one, it is very advantageous to increase the price: the seller gets more money for less goods. With an increase of the price the price elasticity tends to rise, and in the optimum mentioned above it will for most customers be above one. A formula gives the relation between price, marginal cost of production and demand elasticity which maximizes a monopoly profit: (known as Lerner Index). The monopolist's monopoly power is given by the vertical distance between the point where the marginal cost curve (MC) intersects with the marginal revenue curve (MR) and the demand curve. The longer the vertical distance, (the more inelastic the demand curve) the bigger the monopoly power, and thus larger profits. The economy as a whole loses out when monopoly power is used in this way, since the extra profit earned by the firm will be smaller than the loss in consumer surplus. This difference is known as a deadweight loss. "In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..."
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:57:00 - [45] Originally by: Quick'Trader One of the issues being missed here is the prospect of resellers. I would say that the issue of resellers is to some degree spurious...they are certainly responsible (probably in the main) for the current prices of some T2 items, but they only exist and have that effect because of the stupid system of limited BPOs and therefore limited production...cure that and resellers will not have such a gret effect, although they will always have a place, becasue they are needed
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:59:00 - [46] Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 15:59:59 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Matori Kar Originally by: Avon Why not? Because you are inventing a situation that does not, and will NEVER exist... Using the same logic I can make up anything I bloody well like and call it gospel truth . If you are going to use examples, at least use some that exist.... I don't see you arguing against my points, only trolling and flaming me. Do you actually have anything constructive to say? Then I guess you're a blind elitist... You don't see a problem with the status quo of the T2 market, but HEY CCP does!, so they will make changes... I guess that's all that matters... I look forward to Invention and subsequent Reverse Engineering game mechanics in this game, I hope it solves the price gouging problem, but does not take away from actually owning a T2 BPO. Another balancing act for the DEV's... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:00:00 - [47] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Matori Kar Originally by: Avon Why not? Because you are inventing a situation that does not, and will NEVER exist... Using the same logic I can make up anything I bloody well like and call it gospel truth . If you are going to use examples, at least use some that exist.... I don't see you arguing against my points, only trolling and flaming me. Do you actually have anything constructive to say? LOL, desperate? shot down your pathetic attempts to argue that the present system is fine? If (and you obviously have or you wouldnt have posted this) you had looked up, you will see I have made suggestions...might not be the best idea in the universe, but beats the fek out of the existing system..IMO of course
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:03:00 - [48] Originally by: Matori Kar LOL, desperate? shot down your pathetic attempts to argue that the present system is fine? If (and you obviously have or you wouldnt have posted this) you had looked up, you will see I have made suggestions...might not be the best idea in the universe, but beats the fek out of the existing system..IMO of course So I take it that in fact you are going to continue flaming, rather than trying to counter my points. Desperate? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Quick'Trader	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:04:00 - [49] Originally by: Matori Kar Originally by: Quick'Trader One of the issues being missed here is the prospect of resellers. I would say that the issue of resellers is to some degree spurious...they are certainly responsible (probably in the main) for the current prices of some T2 items, but they only exist and have that effect because of the stupid system of limited BPOs and therefore limited production...cure that and resellers will not have such a gret effect, although they will always have a place, becasue they are needed Hmm disagree that they cause the problem. I've done a little reselling from time to time and made some money with it too. When the XL Sheild booster II came out the initial price was around 350 mill a unit in the same price gouging fashion that goes on with all T2 items when they come out. Once they hit about 50 Mill i was buying them and flying them out to the pilots in the northern alliances to make a few iskies. They sold quickly at about 75 mill a pop. they would rather pay me 25 mill above market price than fly to Yulai / Jita and collect their own.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:06:00 - [50] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Matori Kar LOL, desperate? shot down your pathetic attempts to argue that the present system is fine? If (and you obviously have or you wouldnt have posted this) you had looked up, you will see I have made suggestions...might not be the best idea in the universe, but beats the fek out of the existing system..IMO of course So I take it that in fact you are going to continue flaming, rather than trying to counter my points. Desperate? Ok Avon, you win the thread... Nothing wrong with the T2 market at ALL ppl, move on, nothing to see here... Avon wins again, bye... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:09:00 - [51] Originally by: Bhaal Ok Avon, you win the thread... Nothing wrong with the T2 market at ALL ppl, move on, nothing to see here... Avon wins again, bye... Here is the thing of it Bhaal. If this was real life, I would be arguing exactly the same as you. But it isn't, it is a game. Shortage drives conflict, and Eve is about conflict. A system that makes people happy, and gives them what they want, isn't actually a good thing. A noble goal in RL for sure, but not for Eve. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:09:00 - [52] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Matori Kar LOL, desperate? shot down your pathetic attempts to argue that the present system is fine? If (and you obviously have or you wouldnt have posted this) you had looked up, you will see I have made suggestions...might not be the best idea in the universe, but beats the fek out of the existing system..IMO of course So I take it that in fact you are going to continue flaming, rather than trying to counter my points. Desperate? LOL again, I already have countered all you points. But please do carry on embarrassing yourself, you are generally very good at that
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:11:00 - [53] Originally by: Matori Kar [ LOL again, I already have countered all you points. But please do carry on embarrassing yourself, you are generally very good at that I'm so glad I don't value the opinions of faceless alts, otherwise I might cry myself to sleep. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:14:00 - [54] Originally by: Quick'Trader Originally by: Matori Kar Originally by: Quick'Trader One of the issues being missed here is the prospect of resellers. I would say that the issue of resellers is to some degree spurious...they are certainly responsible (probably in the main) for the current prices of some T2 items, but they only exist and have that effect because of the stupid system of limited BPOs and therefore limited production...cure that and resellers will not have such a gret effect, although they will always have a place, becasue they are needed Hmm disagree that they cause the problem. I've done a little reselling from time to time and made some money with it too. When the XL Sheild booster II came out the initial price was around 350 mill a unit in the same price gouging fashion that goes on with all T2 items when they come out. Once they hit about 50 Mill i was buying them and flying them out to the pilots in the northern alliances to make a few iskies. They sold quickly at about 75 mill a pop. they would rather pay me 25 mill above market price than fly to Yulai / Jita and collect their own. Don't get me wrong, resellers are a vital part of this game and economy I just think that in some areas they have either exacerbated or caused the problems of extremely high prices for certain limited T2 products, but again, it is not 'their' fault, rather the silly T2 production system..
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 16:17:00 - [55] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Matori Kar [ LOL again, I already have countered all you points. But please do carry on embarrassing yourself, you are generally very good at that I'm so glad I don't value the opinions of faceless alts, otherwise I might cry myself to sleep. Lols, we are getting really really desperate now aren't we? Am away from PC for an hour or 2, If you can actually come up with a credible reason for the existing T2 system staying as it is, please post it and no more fantasy example please...
Justin Thyme Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.10 17:37:00 - [56] Originally by: Matori Kar it makes very little difference to CCP, they have already set a out a plan to sort the situation out. Are you thinking invention will fix this. Or are they comming up with something else. Like spreading out the BPO's "Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme
Zhelavar Gallente CONsordium Infinate	Posted - 2006.08.10 17:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Justin Thyme Originally by: Avon The selling price is never going to be more than people are willing to pay. Willing and have no choice but to pay are 2 differnt things. They've trained the skill and don't want to waste the training. And all of these folks are inflating the price. NO choice. If we were talking about a class-based game where you have no choice but to use what you are told to use, I would say you have a point, but EVE provides such a level of flexibility that adapting and changing to what is accessible and available seems a much more viable option than not doing anything while hoping for a resolution to a temporary issue. The people that are inflating the price are the ones that demand the item. The seller cannot possibly make any money selling for higher than what they are willing to pay.
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 17:54:00 - [58] I would hazard a guess that Invention has longer term implications for T3 and onwards. It might solve some of the problems with T2, but I would guess that some time down the line CCP will seed all the T2 BPOs to the market, they might add more copies to the lotto as another stepping stone, but in the end - market seed...
Zhelavar Gallente CONsordium Infinate	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:04:00 - [59] Edited by: Zhelavar on 10/08/2006 18:04:52 Originally by: Avon Here is the thing of it Bhaal. If this was real life, I would be arguing exactly the same as you. But it isn't, it is a game. Shortage drives conflict, and Eve is about conflict. A system that makes people happy, and gives them what they want, isn't actually a good thing. A noble goal in RL for sure, but not for Eve. There's a good amount of merit to that post. While I am still in favor of Invention and Reverse-engineering, what Avon points out is one of the areas where there is a noticeable line between RL and a game. For example how much fun would EVE be if there was universal peace? ;)
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:11:00 - [60] Originally by: Zhelavar Edited by: Zhelavar on 10/08/2006 18:04:52 Originally by: Avon Here is the thing of it Bhaal. If this was real life, I would be arguing exactly the same as you. But it isn't, it is a game. Shortage drives conflict, and Eve is about conflict. A system that makes people happy, and gives them what they want, isn't actually a good thing. A noble goal in RL for sure, but not for Eve. There's a good amount of merit to that post. While I am still in favor of Invention and Reverse-engineering, what Avon points out is one of the areas where there is a noticeable line between RL and a game. For example how much fun would EVE be if there was universal peace? ;) Ah, but the conflict would have far more relevance if the T2 BPOs were available to everyone, because the demand would be on resources - those resources are only produced in POSs in low sec/0.0 - a shift from the silliness of the lotto, to the seriousness (and fun) of alliance/corp wars - corps trying to sneak into 0.0/low sec to build POSs - I would hazard that far more people would want to move to low sec to build moon mining POSs (providing CCP actually make enough moons worth mining) thus expanding low sec life... 0.0 will be as it is - dominated by large alliances. It would be nice to see low sec as a more established transistion from high sec to 0.0....provided CCP put the effort in, I think it would be a win/win situation for the game..
Lardarz B'stard Amarr Out Of Exile	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:18:00 - [61] Originally by: Captin Corsair Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 12:50:18 CCP needs to break these obvious monopolies... If the profit margin from base exceeds a certain percentage, they need to relesae more BPO's until the prices come in line... This has really gone on far too long... The BPO seeding needs to be more dynamic IMO... Couldnt hav sed it better myself! Spot on, CCP listen to this guy! Don't be a clown. Whoever has the majority of the Hammerhead II BPOs does not have them by accident. Acquiring a near-monopoly on tech 2 items in game takes a fair amount of planning and a substantial investment. Just because someone has been clever enough to buy the BPOs does not mean they should be treated any differently to any other BPO by CCP. If you had been in a position to buy them and had them all, your argument would be completely different. Eve is a PVP game. That applies to the market as much as anything else. Exiles Recruitment
JP Moregain Gallente Moregain Guaranty Trust	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:40:00 - [62] Originally by: Lardarz B'stard Don't be a clown. Whoever has the majority of the Hammerhead II BPOs does not have them by accident. Acquiring a near-monopoly on tech 2 items in game takes a fair amount of planning and a substantial investment. Just because someone has been clever enough to buy the BPOs does not mean they should be treated any differently to any other BPO by CCP. If you had been in a position to buy them and had them all, your argument would be completely different. Eve is a PVP game. That applies to the market as much as anything else. Actually I can somewhat agree with Lardarz on this (sans the 'clown' comment perhaps) since instead of pulling flawed psuedo-economics out of his Lardarz like an unnamed previous poster he merely states that it is an intended consequence of good play given the current game mechanics... That said, I believe that 'inventions' will be the devs' attempt to fix what they view as a somewhat flawed game mechanic. "In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..."
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.10 19:53:00 - [63] Originally by: JP Moregain Originally by: Lardarz B'stard Don't be a clown. Whoever has the majority of the Hammerhead II BPOs does not have them by accident. Acquiring a near-monopoly on tech 2 items in game takes a fair amount of planning and a substantial investment. Just because someone has been clever enough to buy the BPOs does not mean they should be treated any differently to any other BPO by CCP. If you had been in a position to buy them and had them all, your argument would be completely different. Eve is a PVP game. That applies to the market as much as anything else. Actually I can somewhat agree with Lardarz on this (sans the 'clown' comment perhaps) since instead of pulling flawed psuedo-economics out of his Lardarz like an unnamed previous poster he merely states that it is an intended consequence of good play given the current game mechanics... That said, I believe that 'inventions' will be the devs' attempt to fix what they view as a somewhat flawed game mechanic. And the current game mechanics are what's broken, and what Inventions & Reverse Engineering will hopefully fix... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:02:00 - [64] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/08/2006 20:02:56 Originally by: JP Beauregard I don't quite get why people would ever pay money for ridiculously overpriced T2 drones when rats will voluntarily give you a nearly unlimited supply of FREE T1 drones that you can just afford to lose. Boycott the muppets. PvP advantage. Then again, Hammerheads are not what I use in PvP. So I honestly don't care less about this one. The only real T2 production issue is (as said in other threads) the covert cloak (the unique T1->T2->T2 production scheme it has).
Zhelavar Gallente CONsordium Infinate	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:25:00 - [65] Originally by: Matori Kar Ah, but the conflict would have far more relevance if the T2 BPOs were available to everyone, because the demand would be on resources - those resources are only produced in POSs in low sec/0.0 - a shift from the silliness of the lotto, to the seriousness (and fun) of alliance/corp wars - corps trying to sneak into 0.0/low sec to build POSs - I would hazard that far more people would want to move to low sec to build moon mining POSs (providing CCP actually make enough moons worth mining) thus expanding low sec life... 0.0 will be as it is - dominated by large alliances. It would be nice to see low sec as a more established transistion from high sec to 0.0....provided CCP put the effort in, I think it would be a win/win situation for the game.. Dammit, now you're making me think :(
Benglada Central Defiance	Posted - 2006.08.10 20:53:00 - [66] Originally by: Andargor theWise Edited by: Andargor theWise on 10/08/2006 14:53:26 Originally by: Kilo Paskaa Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't understand why everyone wants Hammerheads. They're not that great. Biggest damage modifier. around 1.9 i remember correctly. Thermal damage only, less effective against a lot of rats, and always tanked in PvP. Tracking and range profiles are different for each drone type, some hit from further, some hit more on fast moving targets. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. The problem is that we don't have accurate stats on the damage drones deal, hence everyone throw themselves on the highest damage mod. Their mistake to make, and T2 owners to benefit from. Point is, the price is as high as people are willing to pay. hammerhead IIs->drone ships ->nos+neuts->hards turning off->thermel doing most damage Reason why i use 5 ogres ony my drone ships. --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
rodgerd Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.08.11 02:25:00 - [67] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 14:54:18 Originally by: Avon A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. Some would argue with you that T2 is as necessary as filling up your gas tank and going to work. Some people with no frigging perspective. Unless you need to play Eve to pay your mortgage or put food on your table. Originally by: Bhaal T2 is becoming a requirement for 0.0 alliance warfare... Oh noes! System sovereignty is a requirement for Alliance warfare and a few corps are hogging it! CCP, nerf BoB and ASCN! I should get things on a plate!
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.11 02:41:00 - [68] Originally by: rodgerd Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 14:54:18 Originally by: Avon A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. Some would argue with you that T2 is as necessary as filling up your gas tank and going to work. Some people with no frigging perspective. Unless you need to play Eve to pay your mortgage or put food on your table. Originally by: Bhaal T2 is becoming a requirement for 0.0 alliance warfare... Oh noes! System sovereignty is a requirement for Alliance warfare and a few corps are hogging it! CCP, nerf BoB and ASCN! I should get things on a plate! The difference is you can go build your own alliance and take over SOV. You can't do that with T2 BPO's... Most are in NPC stations and they will never change hands... I'll reitterate, if the lottery was so swell, CCP would not be looking at options such as inventions & reverse engineering... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
babylonstew Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group	Posted - 2006.08.11 02:50:00 - [69] actually, i think ccp believe the current system is fine, and they are basically caving in to 'the whiners' on this one. however, they just cannot ever admit they are changing it due to 'the whiners'. as the forums would fill up with nerf this change that threads so fast it would crash. and like stated earlier, if you dont think they are worth 2 mil a pop, use something else. you dont think a chelms rep is actually 'worth' 1 bill isk or whatever do you?, and i guess you wouldnt use one. Forum advice Linkage
Atandros Gallente The Man of La Mancha	Posted - 2006.08.11 03:04:00 - [70] Edited by: Atandros on 11/08/2006 03:12:51 Originally by: Benglada hammerhead IIs->drone ships ->nos+neuts->hards turning off->thermel doing most damage Reason why i use 5 ogres ony my drone ships. How, I don't really see this? On T1 shield-tanking ships, EM will be lowest resist once the invul fields are off. On T1 armor tankers, cap doesn't matter much for hardening due to EANM IIs and exp is the lowest resistance anyway. On T2 shield tankers, both Caldari and Minmatar get innate thermal resistance bonuses so the weakest base resistances are EM and kinetic respectively. In the very few cases of Gallente T2 shield tankers, you also get an innate thermal resistance bonus and your lowest resistance will be EM. For T2 armor tankers, Gallente, again, have a thermal bonus and their lowest resist will be explosive (there might be a bit of extra resistance when the hardeners are off in these situations due to compensation skills, but none that would increase the level of the lowest resistance above thermal); and finally, Amarr have no bonuses for thermal so their lowest base resistance is, in fact, thermal. So, thermal only does the most damage if you encounter Amarr T2 ships and in the occasional anomaly where you meet someone using an unorthodox tank that relies on active hardeners. Not most of the time at all...thus, for your stated purposes, I don't see where the benefit of thermal drones is. Am I missing something? -------
Justin Thyme Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.11 13:10:00 - [71] Originally by: babylonstew actually, i think ccp believe the current system is fine, and they are basically caving in to 'the whiners' on this one. however, they just cannot ever admit they are changing it due to 'the whiners'. as the forums would fill up with nerf this change that threads so fast it would crash. and like stated earlier, if you dont think they are worth 2 mil a pop, use something else. you dont think a chelms rep is actually 'worth' 1 bill isk or whatever do you?, and i guess you wouldnt use one. I think it's more they have finaly realized they gave a few folks the ablitly to set up an isk printing press and were expecting market forces to actualy work in an artificial market. It doesn't. True ecconimic pressures do not work in this environment. If it costs Joe 40k say to make something and no one buys it at 2mill or 1.6 mil he isn't going to go broke if it doesn't sell right away. And he can make money other ways until his "investment" pays off. It's not as if he has tied up a lot of money in stock. Even if he makes 100 of these it's a couple days mining, if that and aquiring parts. It's worth more for him to sit and wait for someone to give up and pay. If he also knows that others can do the same and not cave to market forces then he can just wait till someone with ISK to throw away decides to buy them. They didn't seed these things wide enough to create a balenced introduction. I'm all for a profit that's why you build and sell. And it should be affected by supply and demand. But lets face it it's not as if the holders are effected at all my real market forces. The Toon is not going to starve or go out of bussiness because they held onto stock too long. No warehouse is charging them Rent to hold the stuff. They don't have to worry about paying the electric bill. And hell the office rent on the station is cheap enough that they can make that ratting or selling mins. So there product not selling right away doesn't really effect them. Oh and on the "if I don't want to pay it then don't" ... For the record I don't. They aren't worth 2 mil. "Hunting rats is like minning for scrap metal... and occationaly striking gold" -- Justin Thyme I don't shoot people. That would be wrong. I do however shoot Ore Thieves. -- Justin Thyme
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.11 13:35:00 - [72] Originally by: babylonstew actually, i think ccp believe the current system is fine, and they are basically caving in to 'the whiners' on this one. however, they just cannot ever admit they are changing it due to 'the whiners'. as the forums would fill up with nerf this change that threads so fast it would crash. and like stated earlier, if you dont think they are worth 2 mil a pop, use something else. you dont think a chelms rep is actually 'worth' 1 bill isk or whatever do you?, and i guess you wouldnt use one. Highly doubtful... CCP would not make a change like this unless they didn't think the status quo was "fine". ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
JP Moregain Gallente Moregain Guaranty Trust	Posted - 2006.08.11 13:43:00 - [73] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: JP Moregain Originally by: Lardarz B'stard Don't be a clown. Whoever has the majority of the Hammerhead II BPOs does not have them by accident. Acquiring a near-monopoly on tech 2 items in game takes a fair amount of planning and a substantial investment. Just because someone has been clever enough to buy the BPOs does not mean they should be treated any differently to any other BPO by CCP. If you had been in a position to buy them and had them all, your argument would be completely different. Eve is a PVP game. That applies to the market as much as anything else. Actually I can somewhat agree with Lardarz on this (sans the 'clown' comment perhaps) since instead of pulling flawed psuedo-economics out of his Lardarz like an unnamed previous poster he merely states that it is an intended consequence of good play given the current game mechanics... That said, I believe that 'inventions' will be the devs' attempt to fix what they view as a somewhat flawed game mechanic. And the current game mechanics are what's broken, and what Inventions & Reverse Engineering will hopefully fix... Could have sworn I just said that... "In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..."
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate	Posted - 2006.08.11 15:31:00 - [74] Edited by: Andargor theWise on 11/08/2006 15:32:42 Originally by: Benglada Originally by: Andargor theWise Edited by: Andargor theWise on 10/08/2006 14:53:26 Originally by: Kilo Paskaa Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't understand why everyone wants Hammerheads. They're not that great. Biggest damage modifier. around 1.9 i remember correctly. Thermal damage only, less effective against a lot of rats, and always tanked in PvP. Tracking and range profiles are different for each drone type, some hit from further, some hit more on fast moving targets. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. The problem is that we don't have accurate stats on the damage drones deal, hence everyone throw themselves on the highest damage mod. Their mistake to make, and T2 owners to benefit from. Point is, the price is as high as people are willing to pay. hammerhead IIs->drone ships ->nos+neuts->hards turning off->thermel doing most damage Reason why i use 5 ogres ony my drone ships. Like I said, your choice. Atandros gave good arguments against using thermal, which may be why it has such a high damage mod. I've already mentionned tracking and range as also affecting drone dps against moving ships. And I don't use active hardeners in PvP, unless I have cap superiority (e.g. vampidom). armor comp skills + faction membranes > hardeners and > nos+neut -
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.08.11 15:31:00 - [75] Originally by: Avon It isn't semantics, you just don't seem to 'get it'. Two companies. One supplies all the clean drinking water for the whole world. The second supplies the whole worlds favorite additive flavour for water. The first has power, because everyone require water. They can charge what they like, and people pay or die. The second can charge whatever it likes to maximise its profits, and that may mean some people can not afford to flavour their water, and so they don't. That company, however, can not charge more than people are willing to pay, because eventually no-one will. Once they reach that point they are making no money, and have a stockpile of flavouring that they can't cover the costs of. They either lower their prices or go bust. Both are monopolies. Both can charge what they like. Only the first has power. If we want to compare it to that: If you could sell your flavored water, 'Coca Avona' with a 1000% profit margins for a while, you will soon face competition from 'Mi Laisi Cola' which brings out a comparable product at the same or slightly lower price, as with such margins it would be an easy market to step into and get a return on your investment. Once there gets some real competition, then profit isnt made anymore by being the only supplier and throw on a huge mark-up, but by having the lowest cost to produce. I hope the T2 market will be like that one day, with some people making very good profits 'cause of a superior organisation. At the moment, I think even a complete idiot that stumbles upon a valuable T2 BPO will be able to turn it into a cash machine. Even if he would pay triple the price of the components/minerals of the market, his profit wil still make him rich. Pretty much like how in some countries certain services are government run, and as such waste tons of money in inefficiency. But to stop RL comparisons: EVE is a game, and having a large portion of the (essential) content extremely hard to reach isnt doing the game any good in my opinion. All aspects in EVE can be reached through thought, dedication and teamwork, but you can't go and say 'I want to make a company that delivers all kinds of Stealth Ships' 'cause of the lottery. Not saying T2 should be as cheap as T1, but I rather see prices being high 'cause of the cost of building it then just by restricting the supply. Luxury yachts are expensive because of the value of the craftsmanship and materials used, not because the government restricts building yachts to just a few select wharfs.
Atandros Gallente The Man of La Mancha	Posted - 2006.08.11 17:04:00 - [76] Originally by: Andargor theWise Like I said, your choice. Atandros gave good arguments against using thermal, which may be why it has such a high damage mod. To go on a bit of a tangent, I think it's because drones are Gallente weapons, and the Gallente damage type is thermal. Notice that kinetic-dealing drones (the second Gallente damage type) have the next highest damage modifier (and then presumably. That's the only pattern I can see in the otherwise seemingly arbitrary distribution of damage modifiers amongst drones. But, anyway, it's a rather academic discussion... The reason I think Hammerheads II are so expensive is, firstly, because of the big sexy damage modifier which has a tendency to cloud judgment, and secondly because Hammerheads are actually the best drone against three NPC factions (Bloods, Sanshas, Serpentis) and a very good second best against another (Guristas). They're the best against Serpentis because thermal is the Serp's lowest resistance and they're best against Bloods and Sanshas because thermal is their second lowest resist and the drones for EM, their lowest resist, do the lowest damage and all drones, and do in fact so much less raw DPS than the Hammerheads that Hammerheads end up doing more net damage (the damage modifier for thermal drones is 40% higher than the EM drones' damage modifier). And, finally, although kinetic drones are the best against Guristas, Guristas' second lowest resistance is thermal and thermal drones do noticeably more DPS than kinetic (the damage mods are 1,92 vs 1,74), making them a very close second choice. And, finally, why isn't this situation repeated for Ogres II? I think it's because the market for Ogres II is far smaller. One needs to train a rank 5 skill to V and another rank 5 skill to IV for Ogres II, which is akin to large weapon specialization requirements, whereas you just need a rank 1 skill to V and a rank 5 skill to II for Hammerhead IIs which even quite new players can easily accomplish, making the market for Hammerhead IIs huge. P.S. As for PVP, although I agree they're a pretty crap choice by themselves, I try to take both exp and thermal drones whenever I have the space for two loads of drones. With exp you're covered against armor tankers of all tech levels bar Amarr T2 and with thermal you're covered against shield tankers of all tech levels (bar a slight annoyance with Minmatar T2), plus they enable you to cover Amarr T2 ships as well (but why not EM damage for shield tankers, and for that matter Amarr T2 ships as well since they tend to fit a thermal hardener to compensate? In both cases it's simply because EM drone DPS sucks so much - 40% damage mod difference, remember - it doesn't make up for the slight discrepancy in resistance). All-round, this damage pair will cover you against most eventualities better than any other. -------
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate	Posted - 2006.08.11 17:40:00 - [77] Edited by: Andargor theWise on 11/08/2006 17:42:36 Originally by: Atandros The reason I think Hammerheads II are so expensive is, firstly, because of the big sexy damage modifier which has a tendency to cloud judgment, and secondly because Hammerheads are actually the best drone against three NPC factions (Bloods, Sanshas, Serpentis) and a very good second best against another (Guristas). I disagree here. The best damage type against each faction is: Serpentis: Kinetic (except Xevni Jipon on Vengeance, thermal) Sansha: EM Blood: EM Guristas: Kinetic Which should make Vespa IIs and Infiltrator IIs better choices for those... -
Atandros Gallente The Man of La Mancha	Posted - 2006.08.11 21:18:00 - [78] Kinetic for Serps? Okay, I'll take your word for it. I haven't fought Serps in a very long while, and my memories are slowly eroding... As for the other factions, yes, EM is indeed the best damage type against Sanshas and Bloods but thermal-dealing drones are the best choice, for the reasons listed in my last post (and thermal-dealing drones are then still a very close second best choice for two NPC factions). -------
Caerleus Board of Twenty	Posted - 2006.08.11 23:11:00 - [79] Something that noone has touched on is the fact of how people get multiple copies of the same BPO.. Chances that they get them in the lottery would be very remote, so it's mainly due to the fact that those that do receive BPO's see them as a quick instant fix of cash, to be sold on the market, rather than, dare I say, the intended long term useage with all that entails. If you need people to blame for the current hoarding of types of BPO's, which is essentailly smart business practice, point your fingers at those within the Sell Forums trading them. With more individual producers, the prices would be more resiliant to inflation, such as is found with a host of 'common' t2 equipment.
Darkrydar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.11 23:12:00 - [80] CCP has already stated (numerous times) that they won't ever seed t2 bpo's to the market. You might as well forget about that happening.
Darkrydar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.11 23:15:00 - [81] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: rodgerd Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 14:54:18 Originally by: Avon A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. Some would argue with you that T2 is as necessary as filling up your gas tank and going to work. Some people with no frigging perspective. Unless you need to play Eve to pay your mortgage or put food on your table. Originally by: Bhaal T2 is becoming a requirement for 0.0 alliance warfare... Oh noes! System sovereignty is a requirement for Alliance warfare and a few corps are hogging it! CCP, nerf BoB and ASCN! I should get things on a plate! The difference is you can go build your own alliance and take over SOV. You can't do that with T2 BPO's... Most are in NPC stations and they will never change hands... I'll reitterate, if the lottery was so swell, CCP would not be looking at options such as inventions & reverse engineering... meh, whats stopping you from buying any T2 bpo you want? The reason for the bpc's (invention) is because the games growth. There are the same amount of crow bpo's now as there were when they sold for 300 million isk. Over time their value has appreciated as more ppl join eve.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.11 23:48:00 - [82] Originally by: Darkrydar Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: rodgerd Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 14:54:18 Originally by: Avon A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. Some would argue with you that T2 is as necessary as filling up your gas tank and going to work. Some people with no frigging perspective. Unless you need to play Eve to pay your mortgage or put food on your table. Originally by: Bhaal T2 is becoming a requirement for 0.0 alliance warfare... Oh noes! System sovereignty is a requirement for Alliance warfare and a few corps are hogging it! CCP, nerf BoB and ASCN! I should get things on a plate! The difference is you can go build your own alliance and take over SOV. You can't do that with T2 BPO's... Most are in NPC stations and they will never change hands... I'll reitterate, if the lottery was so swell, CCP would not be looking at options such as inventions & reverse engineering... meh, whats stopping you from buying any T2 bpo you want? The reason for the bpc's (invention) is because the games growth. There are the same amount of crow bpo's now as there were when they sold for 300 million isk. Over time their value has appreciated as more ppl join eve. Uhmm... Maybe because there are only 20 of each, and they are not for sale? You can't go and use PvP to take them by force if they sit in an NPC station in Empire like you can go and take 0.0 territories with PvP... This is a PvP game, there is nothing PvP about a frikkin lottery... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Xenuchrist Gallente STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.11 23:50:00 - [83] Originally by: Avon Here is the thing of it Bhaal. If this was real life, I would be arguing exactly the same as you. But it isn't, it is a game. Shortage drives conflict, and Eve is about conflict. A system that makes people happy, and gives them what they want, isn't actually a good thing. A noble goal in RL for sure, but not for Eve. Somehow, this line of reason seems fitting for a door-to-door seller of cosmetics... * Conflict over resources are good/fun allright, problem here being the innability to actually have a confict over the most essential T2-resource: The T2 BPO. Once the lottery-tickets are drawn (,and some of the prizes have been resold), the T2 BPO basicly becomes an uncontestable resource. Sure, we've all read about people loosing BPOs during transport, but then again when was the last time a BOB corp lost a valuable one..? If the owner know what he's doing, it just isn't happening. (Still remember all the fuzz on the forums, way back when Xetic managed to loose one in 0.0...) -If we could actually storm stations and raid hangars, THEN we'd be talking... * I know, I know... "In human stupidity, when it is not malicious, there is something very touching, even beautiful... There always is." /Tolstoy
Darkrydar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.11 23:59:00 - [84] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Darkrydar Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: rodgerd Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 10/08/2006 14:54:18 Originally by: Avon A monopoly only holds power if it supplies required goods or services. T2 is not required. A monopoly with no customers still fails. Some would argue with you that T2 is as necessary as filling up your gas tank and going to work. Some people with no frigging perspective. Unless you need to play Eve to pay your mortgage or put food on your table. Originally by: Bhaal T2 is becoming a requirement for 0.0 alliance warfare... Oh noes! System sovereignty is a requirement for Alliance warfare and a few corps are hogging it! CCP, nerf BoB and ASCN! I should get things on a plate! The difference is you can go build your own alliance and take over SOV. You can't do that with T2 BPO's... Most are in NPC stations and they will never change hands... I'll reitterate, if the lottery was so swell, CCP would not be looking at options such as inventions & reverse engineering... meh, whats stopping you from buying any T2 bpo you want? The reason for the bpc's (invention) is because the games growth. There are the same amount of crow bpo's now as there were when they sold for 300 million isk. Over time their value has appreciated as more ppl join eve. Uhmm... Maybe because there are only 20 of each, and they are not for sale? You can't go and use PvP to take them by force if they sit in an NPC station in Empire like you can go and take 0.0 territories with PvP... This is a PvP game, there is nothing PvP about a frikkin lottery... You can go and earn isk and buy them can't you? People will sell them for the right price. But, its easier to play the defeatist role like yourself than to actually do something about it.
Rexthor Hammerfists Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.12 00:05:00 - [85] i think the problem is that more ppl waant to buy those t2 stuff, and actually have to compete out there on the pvp battlefield - but the bpos keep the same. there should b some sort of % bpos for ppl who can use that kind of item - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
CherniyVolk	Posted - 2006.08.12 00:30:00 - [86] Originally by: Justin Thyme The suppy of them is fine. They take no time to make. And there are tons of them on the market. This is all artificial inflation I'm sorry. All four sentences here, put together make no sense whatsoever. Though, this is typical logic from a Capitalist... and people wonder why I think 80% of what Adam Smith said was nothing more than fancy jargon filled gobblede***. Adam Smith was a man who had a larger vocabulary than he had intelligence. There is no such thing as artificial inflation. Either prices are where they are at or they aren't. I would like George Carlin and Galigar to add this economic bullsht word into their comedy skits regarding language (re: pre-heated oven...) If supply is abundant, if manufacturing is of ease, and if shelves are overflowing with product... then the ONLY possibility of ridiculous inflation is if there is little to no competition. If multiple Hammerhead II BPOs exist, all the owners collude, if fewer Hammerhead II BPOs exist, then the the bulk of manufacturing shall be under a single authority (alliance, individual, corporation). Either way, the source must be heavily controlled and only irrelevant competition may exist.
Korvus	Posted - 2006.08.12 02:05:00 - [87] I love these posts. And I love both sides of the debate too. I mean, it looks like everybody who has ever had a class in Macro/Micro economics or Decision Sciences feels qualified to have an opinion on the market forces being brought to bear. As has been pointed out by Matari Kar and JP Moregain already, real world economics is really somewhat irrelevant. For those who persist in using economics on either side of the debate keep in mind no matter how real CCP attempts to make the market, it is still artificial. An example of this artifice brought up by Mi Lai (in her drink example) is that the normal market response to excess demand in a limited supply environment is for entrepeneurs to create alternatives. So since that is not possible in the game, real world economic theory really fails (not entirely, but enough that any conclusion based on important sounding words/principles like Demand or Supply or Price Elasticity of Demand, etc are far from given facts). For me the biggest obstacle to anlayzing any EvE problem solely on real world paradigms (be they economic or political or whatever) is that most analysis is based on the assumption of rational decision. One premise of immersing yourself in a MMORPG is the freedom from the necesity of rational decision at all times that is driven upon us every day. (Yes, a rational buyer who does not want to pay high prices would not pay them and use T1 alternatives. But people behave rationally enough in the real world; this is a game, a chance to be more than the mundane world forces us to be, so if you are just going to settle for what rational thought concludes you should quit the game and invest you $15 every month for 30 or 40 or 50 years and retire rich). So all economic theorists please continue if you enjoy such debate (just acknowledge the results have to be questioned based on the lack of a true free market and the absence of rational decision). My own personal opinion regarding the OP is that since this is a game, I should be able to be a giant of industry if I am fortunate enough to get a T2 BPO, and get 100%, 200%, heck even 500% profit if I can form a cartel. And as a user of HHIIs, I feel I should have a right to buy them for at most that same 500% markup. So if build cost is indeed $100,000, and the price is over 1.6m, then the owners of the game should take steps to address this so that both player's experience is enjoyable (it is a game afterall). Now they are addressing this with invention, but I will wait to see if that works. I personally think the time investment vs benefit will initially not be worth it, but only time will tell.
Korvus	Posted - 2006.08.12 02:07:00 - [88] Korvus's Suggested R&D Alternative Warning, long post from a fanatic: My personal hope for the R&D overhaul was to see a system like this: RPs become a resource pool, like ISK, that can be spent. If you have the necessary skills (Ship Construction, Starship Engineering, Specific Race Engineering, etc.) then you can modify a ship. A new interface would be created and depending on your skills and RPs you could spend them to change the ships fitting (but always with a trade-off). Example - You wanted a large drone-bay for a ship. Buy the frigate, have Mechanical Engineering, Gallente Starship Engineering, Mechanic, Frigate Construction all trained. Then open a window for the new "Invention" screen that would need to be created and select drone bay setting. Increase the value and watch cargo bay shrink. Or if you wanted to alter armor resists, with the appropriate skills, increase the kinetic, and watch thermic, em and ex all decrease. Meanwhile, the total number of RPs needed for your changes is being tallied. If you have poor Science Skills, each change costs more. If you have high skills, each change costs less. Once all changes are made, select commit and come back in a day, week, month, whatever (havenÆt give the time model thought, but would probably tie it to BPO research clock so make it long). If you are successful (yes, there is a %chance of failure listed before you commit based on the severity of the change), a shiny new BPCcomes out. Yes, thatÆs right, copy. Call it a 5 or 3 run. You have to build all the copies on it (call them test runs). But once the BPC is expended, it now becomes a Prototype BPO. If you like it, you can now spend 100 times or 1000 times or some ungodly number times the RPs to create the BPC to turn it into a real BPO. Yes, I know this would be a massive rewrite and lots of consideration about which attributes could be changed and to what extent with what trade-offs. And I am still on the fence whether or not to set these RPs that are required to Millions and Billions and make RPs a tradeable commodity (or at least shareable within Corp or Alliance). You could also extend this paradigm to modules (but with less variation I don't know how well it would work, so maybe this is only a ship building thing).
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.12 02:20:00 - [89] Edited by: Bhaal on 12/08/2006 02:23:14 Quote: You can go and earn isk and buy them can't you? People will sell them for the right price. But, its easier to play the defeatist role like yourself than to actually do something about it. There is no reason for me to do anything about a broken game mechanic except lobby for a solution, like I have been, and hopefully we'll see that solution soon... If CCP said they like the lottery the way it is, and will never change it, then that's fine, I'd simply ignore buying T2 like I pretty much have been. However, they have not come out and said it's fine, and they are looking to change it. So no, I will not go quietly on this issue until I see it change for the better, as it should, because it's broke and we all know it, some of you just can't accept it... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Aeina Caeraen Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2006.08.12 02:52:00 - [90] The only problem with the argument for releasing more BPOs for "special" T2 items such as CapRec IIs, some HACs is that it's an arbitrarily heavy-handed management tactic that is not in the best interests of the game in general, especially when there is a specific person, neutral he or she may be, that ends up deciding which T2 items end up being categorized as "obviously monopolized." I agree with DS that invention is the best way of solving this problem, (I'm still not convinced that it's a problem, seeing as so few T2 modules are affected) as it allows the market at large to determine which markets are in need of additional elastic supply, and respond accordingly. T2 has needed a slightly elastic supply for a long time, and simply adding more T2 BPOs does not provide for such a supply.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.16 23:34:00 - [91] This discussion is very interesting, but i think it misses the most important point: items are not equal in their functionality, and sometimes, this difference is irrational. The problem with drones is that the damage TYPES do different damages, making it pointless to use the correct damage type when "the wrong one" does more base damage. Example: Kinetic is the best damage against Serpentis and Guristas BS, but for frigates, it becomes a bit more tricky. Mission runners usually stock Kinetic missiles (guristas + serpentis), EM missiles (drones, sansha / blood) and explosive (angels) but never Thermal. But because of the highest base damage, the difference is not that big, and you dont have to change drones against sansha / blood if you use hammerhead II. The price difference between muninns and vagabonds is not based on monopols or resellers. Vagabonds are godlike (fun and unique) and i would pay 1b if it was the only way to get one. I pay 500m for a mach without blinking, and i would pay 15b for an impaggedon (thats actually cheap, i would resell). Where is the problem? You can see by that statement: rich people like me are the problem. There are simply too many rich people. Chelm cap rechargers are up to 2-3b now, and estamel invulnerability fields can easily go for 7-10b. 10 billion ISKs for a single mod. think about that. T2 is very similar to officer modules. I actually should try and create a REAL monopol on some random item, and see what the reactions would be.
Akira Kaneshiro Caldari Associated Press	Posted - 2006.08.17 00:14:00 - [92] Originally by: Matori Kar Ah, but the conflict would have far more relevance if the T2 BPOs were available to everyone, because the demand would be on resources - those resources are only produced in POSs in low sec/0.0 - a shift from the silliness of the lotto, to the seriousness (and fun) of alliance/corp wars - corps trying to sneak into 0.0/low sec to build POSs - I would hazard that far more people would want to move to low sec to build moon mining POSs (providing CCP actually make enough moons worth mining) thus expanding low sec life... 0.0 will be as it is - dominated by large alliances. It would be nice to see low sec as a more established transistion from high sec to 0.0....provided CCP put the effort in, I think it would be a win/win situation for the game.. Very interesting point Quote: Conflict over resources are good/fun allright, problem here being the innability to actually have a confict over the most essential T2-resource: The T2 BPO. Once the lottery-tickets are drawn (,and some of the prizes have been resold), the T2 BPO basicly becomes an uncontestable resource. That's way we CANT use RL comparison because in RL we can create an alternative and viable product. In EVE we dont. I suspect that Invention skill work only to create t2 BPC? not a bpo version

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