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Hitomi Ayame Amarr Royal Knights of Khanid	Posted - 2006.08.12 07:29:00 - [31] Lots of talk about the Ares...not so much about the Malediction. Ares needs a boost, for sure, but so does the Malediction! There's absolutely nothing this ship can do that another interceptor can't do better. If we take a look at the lovely 'Khanid Mk. II' thread, we get some lovely ideas about where this ship could go. Armor tanking, missile spamming, sleek and black. I think it might be interesting to make it into a pure rocket ship. Less versatile than the Crow, but a little better at what it does. 4/3/3 with 3 launchers and a 10% EM rocket damage bonus per level. But most importantly, fix the damn thing so that its turrets aren't lopsided! - - - The Royal Knights of Khanid are now recruiting! Step up and serve God and Khanid today!
TuRtLe HeAd Apocalypse Enterprises	Posted - 2006.08.12 07:40:00 - [32] Edited by: TuRtLe HeAd on 12/08/2006 07:40:20 The Malediction got its boost a while ago, As did the Raptor, As a Direct result we are now seeing about 100% more of Both being used in fights. The Ares sill needs focus though, as its a Jack of No Trades Master of the Tech II Shuttle. The Crusader Certainly doesn't need boosting, its got the armour,Structure, the Speed and its Alot lighter that the Claw (Not sure I get that). Slot changes this late in the game for ships that are over 2 years old could be catastrophic for the older players. Im sure that when inties intitially came out (not 100% though), they requried inty level 1 and inty level 2 to fly them, Bring that back ! and make all teir 1 inties get Warp disruptor Cap reduction. (Cap requirements when fitting a 20k scram can be painful. 20-15 cap every cycle on a ship that has about 200 + MWD + Guns + Other stuff)
Hub Quantum Dark Synergy Inc. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.12 07:56:00 - [33] Ares is without a doubt the worst interceptor, great for running small amounts of zyd or mega, bpos, etc, but thats about it. Just some information: Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level Interceptor Skill Bonus: 5% Reduced signature Radius and 5% bonus to Thermal Missile Damage per level. fittingpowergrid output 30 MWlowslots 4 medslots 2 hislots 4 cpuoutput 150 tflauncher hardpoints 2 turret hardpoints 2 Obviously the split weapon systems (One of which is not a primary for gallente) hurt this ship something fierce, the 2 medslots also make it fairly unviable as a great tackler. (It can still do it, it's just not great at it.) Moving a high down and giving it three medslots would be fantabulous. It's PG is also extremely low for something that is supposed to be fitting four weapons for maximum viability. Personally I'd love to see the split weapons go away and either go three missiles or three turrets. But despite the fact that I haven't ever met a player that actually liked split weapon systems, the devs seem hellbent on it still. If devs are worried about DPS then move the missile bonus to something utilitarian like MWD cap reduction % a la thorax, or hybrid cap use, etc. If the devs absolutely refuse to touch this ship, then raise its cargo bay size so it can officially be the tech 2 shuttle of choice.
Hub Quantum Dark Synergy Inc. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.12 07:58:00 - [34] Also, the taranis is traditionally a blaster boat due to it's speed, the ares, the faster ship, could make for a great rail inty with the proper tweaks from devs, but it does need something to contribute to that, the tracking bonus (Which the ship already has) and three turret hardpoints is a nice start.
Valea Silpha Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.12 08:36:00 - [35] I think the inties are alright as they are. Im against the raptor becoming entirely hybrid based, because then it'll just be a taranis, unless you give it an optimal bonus which would unbalance it. <Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.12 09:14:00 - [36] Edited by: Ithildin on 12/08/2006 09:14:55 Originally by: Kai Lae Clickeh my sigeh While your fix adresses the Raptor, it does little to absolutely nothing for the Ares. Increased fitting will not make it better as long as there is a fundamental lack in role, specialization, and performance. The current Ares, and subsequently the Ares suggested by you, is without form. It does not have a role in which it can specialize. Since it doesn't have a specialization it is hard for it to perform well. Since it does not perform well it cannot be given any artificial role. At the moment there are two mayor roles in interceptors - damage or sieze-and-hold. The Ares with it's split weapon system, and the lack of compensation for it, cannot do the damage dealing role. Due to the Ares' absence of mid slots it cannot sieze-and-hold someone, either. In addition to this, as has been discussed, the Taranis can perform both the above roles very well, and as such the Ares needs to focus on a specific role and excel at it in order to become a valid ship, OR a new role needs be invented for it. One of the underlying problems is that we cannot suggest anything but a very slim area of focus for the Ares since it is of Roden Shipyard design - we cannot, for instance, suggest it to become a drone interceptor, sadly. In it's essence, this leaves us with two basic choices - suggest it to recieve 4 mid slots or suggest it to recieve increased damage potential above that of the Taranis. For the record, below is an outline for a drone interceptor. Ares (CreoDron design) Frigate: -5% MWD capacitor reduction, +5% hybrid turret damage Interceptor: +10% drone MWD velocity and hit points, -5% signature radius High: 3, 3 turrets and 0 launchers Mid: 3 Low: 3 Drone bay: 25 metrics Powergrid: 30 CPU: 150 Mass: 1,000,000.00 KG Velocity: 450 m/s Warp velocity: 13.5 AU/s The Ares class interceptor is one of the groundbreaking developments featured in recent CreoDron research breakthrough mainly in drone handling miniaturization, but also in drone micro warpdrive capacity. "This change in development from the traditional focus on drone targeting systems to drone combat speeds was a development we felt." Comments lead project scientist Belliard and continues "With the challenge of creating a high-speed combat vessel, it was the only natural direction to take" Developer: CreoDron As the largest drone developer and manufacturer in space, CreoDron has a vested interest in drone carriers. The Ares interceptor features the most sophisticated CreoDron miniaturization and drone subsystem optimization technology available. Inspite of having a relatively large drone bay the miniaturization efforts have yielded light-weight interceptor that is highly suitable for high speed combat. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God	Posted - 2006.08.12 09:18:00 - [37] I've always believed that all the cheaper 'ceptors should be faster than the assault ceptors. Cheap 'ceptors should be more tackle oriented, with emphasis on mid slots and speed, assault 'cepters should be more focused on firepower and cap sustainability. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Sangxianc Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.12 14:24:00 - [38] Originally by: Ithildin Droneterceptor! Hotter than hot, and a the thought of the Ares being green is almost giving me a stiffy, but I doubt it'll happen :p The Ares sucks and I wish CCP would change it.
Frools No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.08.12 14:34:00 - [39] Originally by: Hitomi Ayame Lots of talk about the Ares...not so much about the Malediction. Ares needs a boost, for sure, but so does the Malediction! ..... But most importantly, fix the damn thing so that its turrets aren't lopsided! tbh theres nothing wrong with the amarr ceptors, all their problems are with the guns small lasers need lower fitting and a small damage boost a maledictions damage output is pretty damn poor as it is and its doing pretty much the worst damage types you could want to against other frigates (plates = lots of armour with 60% or 70% em resist) crusader has same grid as a claw, now go look at autocannon grid needs compared to small pulses, that just makes no sense at all
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.12 14:47:00 - [40] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK I've always believed that all the cheaper 'ceptors should be faster than the assault ceptors. Cheap 'ceptors should be more tackle oriented, with emphasis on mid slots and speed, assault 'cepters should be more focused on firepower and cap sustainability. The Ares is the more expensive to build of the Gallentean pair, believe it or not. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death

Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.12 14:51:00 - [41] Originally by: Frools Originally by: Hitomi Ayame Lots of talk about the Ares...not so much about the Malediction. Ares needs a boost, for sure, but so does the Malediction! ..... But most importantly, fix the damn thing so that its turrets aren't lopsided! tbh theres nothing wrong with the amarr ceptors, all their problems are with the guns small lasers need lower fitting and a small damage boost a maledictions damage output is pretty damn poor as it is and its doing pretty much the worst damage types you could want to against other frigates (plates = lots of armour with 60% or 70% em resist) crusader has same grid as a claw, now go look at autocannon grid needs compared to small pulses, that just makes no sense at all The fitting comment is only true if you consider Medium Beams. The other small lasers have appropriate fitting requirements. Additionally, ACs are reknowned for having very, very, forgiving requirements. As for damage, the important thing here is that a boost is not carried through to larger lasers. On the frigate level, EM damage is the worst because frigates do not have the slots for shield tanking. A frigate without propulsion jamming is a wasted frigate, and thus armour "tanks" are the only possible survival increaser - which hurts EM damage dealers. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Altai Saker Omniscient Order Verisum Family	Posted - 2006.08.12 14:55:00 - [42] Edited by: Altai Saker on 12/08/2006 15:04:47 so Ithildin? Dual light Beam do very little damage off a crusader as is, take alot of your grid and cpu (read almost all with a MWD + scramble/20k fitted) whereas the taranis can fit a full rack of 125mm(which are more like Medium Beams than DLB) + 2 damage mods as well as a web + scram with cpu leftover... Are the fitting reqs really fine?
Savion Mercarte	Posted - 2006.08.12 14:59:00 - [43] All a crusader can use are gatling pulse or dual pulse unless you want to stick on a lot of MAPCs. Gatling pulse seems the only way to go because a crusader really needs a plate.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.12 15:19:00 - [44] Originally by: Altai Saker Edited by: Altai Saker on 12/08/2006 15:05:24 Edited by: Altai Saker on 12/08/2006 15:04:47 so Ithildin? Dual light Beam do very little damage off a crusader as is, take alot of your grid and cpu (read almost all with a MWD + scramble/20k fitted) whereas the taranis can fit a full rack of 125mm(which are more like Medium Beams than DLB) + 2 damage mods as well as a web + scram... Are the fitting reqs really fine? Hmm? 125mm Railgun II and Dual Light Beam II take the same amount of powergrid! Additionally, Gallente ships have on avarage slightly smaller powergrid than Amarr ships. Dual Light Beam II also use less CPU, although CPU is the relative strength of the Gallenteans. Fine, if you want to argue specific cases, but isn't it better to adress those than to screw everything up for all the other ships? P.S. That fitting isn't possible on the Taranis without CPU increasing module, which is the missing low slot module in your descriptor. Granted that the Crusader needs to use two fitting modules (Ares, anyone?), but case stands - don't mess up entire classes of ships when specific manipulation can be done to achieve greater effect. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 15:28:00 - [45] Um. Not so.. Rail Tarranis: 3125mm mm II 1 <empty> 1MWD 1web 1disruptor 2damage mods 1*cap power relay FITS. I know, I used to fly it. It used to kill Claws. Now, Claws using barrage kill it.
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.12 15:32:00 - [46] Originally by: Ithildin The fitting comment is only true if you consider Medium Beams. The other small lasers have appropriate fitting requirements. Additionally, ACs are reknowned for having very, very, forgiving requirements. Nope. Compare damage dealt by: 150mm ac, small gatling laser, dual light pulse and next compare their fittings. Not only 150mm is WAY easier to fit than both lasers it also deals more (gatling) or equal (dual) damage. And it doesnt use cap (which is pretty good on frigs - you can use scrambler+guns almost non-stop). IMO both gatling and dual pulse should lose abt 1-2pg from fitting reqs. Med pulses could also get some help (especially in PG department cause 4x dual pulse + heatsink are better than 4x med pulses and fit way easier) - but they are heaviest of frig guns and dont have comparable autocannon to check fittings. Ah and when we are at this. If you still think lasers deal more damage: put 150/200mm AC's and gatling/dual pulse on punisher (no bonus to guns except for lower cap). And then tell me what you would prefer to use: more damaging/no cap ACs or using cap, less damage (+EM mixed in) lasers.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.12 16:24:00 - [47] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Ithildin The fitting comment is only true if you consider Medium Beams. The other small lasers have appropriate fitting requirements. Additionally, ACs are reknowned for having very, very, forgiving requirements. Nope. Compare damage dealt by: 150mm ac, small gatling laser, dual light pulse and next compare their fittings. Not only 150mm is WAY easier to fit than both lasers it also deals more (gatling) or equal (dual) damage. And it doesnt use cap (which is pretty good on frigs - you can use scrambler+guns almost non-stop). IMO both gatling and dual pulse should lose abt 1-2pg from fitting reqs. Med pulses could also get some help (especially in PG department cause 4x dual pulse + heatsink are better than 4x med pulses and fit way easier) - but they are heaviest of frig guns and dont have comparable autocannon to check fittings. Ah and when we are at this. If you still think lasers deal more damage: put 150/200mm AC's and gatling/dual pulse on punisher (no bonus to guns except for lower cap). And then tell me what you would prefer to use: more damaging/no cap ACs or using cap, less damage (+EM mixed in) lasers. Ok, I've had it on this one. You're stupid. First of all, read my entire post. Make sure you get all words. I wrote that ACs are known for having very LOW fittings. I'm strongly implying that ACs have TOO LOW fittings. Of 6 turret classes, it is the only one with fittings so low. Second of all, did you even bother reading my second paragraph. Rhethorical question - no you didn't. Hence the stupid comment. It's stupid, really stupid, to take one part of a message, and then attack the writer of that message for not considering what he adressed in the second part of the message. Allow me to elaborate: Originally by: Ithildin As for damage, the important thing here is that a boost is not carried through to larger lasers. On the frigate level, EM damage is the worst because frigates do not have the slots for shield tanking. A frigate without propulsion jamming is a wasted frigate, and thus armour "tanks" are the only possible survival increaser - which hurts EM damage dealers. P.S. 150mm AC is, incidentally, comparable to the Dual Light Pulse Laser since both are the middling weapons of their repsective categories. Is it so shocking that they deal approximatly the same damage? Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.12 16:32:00 - [48] Originally by: Ithildin While your fix adresses the Raptor, it does little to absolutely nothing for the Ares. Increased fitting will not make it better as long as there is a fundamental lack in role, specialization, and performance. The current Ares, and subsequently the Ares suggested by you, is without form. It does not have a role in which it can specialize. Since it doesn't have a specialization it is hard for it to perform well. Since it does not perform well it cannot be given any artificial role. I agree that it would be a better ship if you didn't have the split weapon systems, but currently it seems CCP wants it that way. Nearly all Roden designs save the Oneiros have this issue. Given that, the biggest problem with the ship is the powergrid, as anyone with one knows. As long as you have the skills (read - missile skills) it works passibly well as a long range interceptor. Because of the drones and the damage bonus the taranis is the short range interceptor, and logic says that the ares makes a better long range boat, as it is faster and better able to dictate range. If it was possible to actually arm it with anything but 75mm II and rocket launchers without a grid mod, it might be somewhat worthwhile. I don't think it'll ever be that popular as a interceptor among gallente pilots because of the required missile skills which are a rarity; only people like myself would likely use it. Even given that, it might be nice if you could actually fit it the way it should be, with standard (II) launchers and rails, without having to use 2 MAPC. The only real mystery here is why CCP continues to pay no attention to these ships. All the issues raised in my original post really make no sense, especially when you look at the powergrid mystery which really kills these ships more than anything. As for the maladiction and the crusader, I've never flown those so I can't comment on their strengths and weaknesses. Raptor and Ares Fix
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.12 16:34:00 - [49] Originally by: Ithildin The fitting comment is only true if you consider Medium Beams. The other small lasers have appropriate fitting requirements. Additionally, ACs are reknowned for having very, very, forgiving requirements. Here's an excellent question that relates to all amarr frigates: Can anyone give a good reason why the fittings for medium beam lasers are so extreme and out of line when compared to 150mm rails and 280mm artillery? Raptor and Ares Fix
Deva Blackfire DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Ithildin Ok, I've had it on this one. You're stupid. Nice start - guess i can call you retarded from now on so we can talk on same level? Originally by: Ithildin First of all, read my entire post. Make sure you get all words. I wrote that ACs are known for having very LOW fittings. I'm strongly implying that ACs have TOO LOW fittings. Of 6 turret classes, it is the only one with fittings so low. No you never implied this. You just confirmed it - same as i did it. Originally by: Ithildin Second of all, did you even bother reading my second paragraph. Rhethorical question - no you didn't. Hence the stupid comment. It's stupid, really stupid, to take one part of a message, and then attack the writer of that message for not considering what he adressed in the second part of the message. Actually i was discussing. Maybe stop reading "Alliance smack subforums" so you will know that most ppl like to DISCUSS not ATTACK. Originally by: Ithildin As for damage, the important thing here is that a boost is not carried through to larger lasers. On the frigate level, EM damage is the worst because frigates do not have the slots for shield tanking. A frigate without propulsion jamming is a wasted frigate, and thus armour "tanks" are the only possible survival increaser - which hurts EM damage dealers. P.S. 150mm AC is, incidentally, comparable to the Dual Light Pulse Laser since both are the middling weapons of their repsective categories. Is it so shocking that they deal approximatly the same damage? Like i said above. It is shocking that dual pulses deal comparable damage to 150mm's but have MUCH worse fittings. 150mm's are weapon of choice when you need to save grid. For lasers it is gatling laser - which still eats way more grid having lower damage overall. And really - chill out. Go drink some cofee or whatever, go for walk and then sit and reply to posts.

Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:07:00 - [51] ..and has more range, etc. It's not one-sided. (Barrage breaks this relationship, yes. T2 amo is broken and all.)
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:09:00 - [52] Then, please, by all means don't quote me since you aren't really replying to me, Deva. Or make an effort to show that it's not directed at me. Please read your post again, and then edit it so that it shows exactly what you are adressing to me and when you are using my comments for effect. The way it reads now, it is not far fetched at all to assume that everything is adressed at my comments. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Oisin Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:27:00 - [53] It's been said before but it's worth repeating - the Ares is a good Tech II shuttle. It's marginally less useful in combat than a Bestower with EW in its mid slots. What would make the Ares unique/useful/intersting? I'm assuming it stays a Roden ship and therefore can't ditch missiles completely, but we don't want to turn it into a Gallente Crow either. Here are a few ideas: A: 3 missile slots, 1 turret, 2 mids, 4 lows, no drone bay, frig and inty bonuses to missiles instead of split. This makes it a damage dealing missile boat (fit BCUs in lows), but it still can't tackle as effectively as a Crow. B: Existing 4/2/4 slot layout and hardpoints, 25m3 drone bay (fits one Web Berserker or 5 light drones), same bonuses. That makes it either a damage dealing drone boat or a more effective tackler that relies on a single webber drone. C: 3/5/3 slot layout, 2 turrets 2 launchers, no drone bay. 50 extra CPU, frigate bonuses to hybrid damage and missile flight time. Interceptor bonus to sensor dampener strength (this being the Gallente choice for EW) and the usual sig radius reduction. This makes it possible to orbit at range and dampen larger ships so they can't lock you. Damage output will be very poor. So there are at least these three possibilities, each with its unique strengths and each with a weakness to compensate. Wreckless Abandon is recruiting
kessah Caldari Blood Corsairs	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:43:00 - [54] I think i agree with the the non assault ceptors being more for speed and tackling. but tbh thats what the interceptor class is for anyways. I think that they should mirror the other in the racial class. taranis a blaster boat mostly, the Ares all rail or missle boat it does tho need 3~4 mids. The Raptor well i read above that its said it would be too like a ranis if it had all hybrids well thats fine since its caldari frig 5 u train for and not gallente frig 5. Raptor tho seriously need a pg boost it rediculous fitting 2x mapc to fit anything decent on it. The sader does need a boost im sorry but its 2mids and lack of dmg with em and therm is just poor. Its very hard to fit it with beams and any sort of tank which with 2 mid slots i assume it should be able to either hit harder or tank somewhat with abit of range to its guns. The malediction just make it the amarr version of the crow seriously another race should have a rocket ceptor. Stilleto and Claw are perfectly spot on imho. Altho they are the extremes of Damage or tackling which is what i like. -------------------------------------------------------- Forever Pirate
dabster Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:41:00 - [55] Stiletto sure as hell dont need a single thing fixed, its got 4 meds and is the most excellent tackler in game. ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click.
Auldare S.A.S	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:53:00 - [56] Edited by: Auldare on 12/08/2006 20:54:25 Only ceptors i use are the malediction and raptor, sometimes the stiletto. They are great for what they are, support tacklers, chasing down targets etc the damage dealing ceptors are more for solo/small group ops. imho the warp speed, scan res etc for the 'lower' ceptors make up for the hybrids bonuses they get. Think of it this way, the hybrid bonuses allow for 2 types of fittings that can be worked around on. Use one system or another and then think a lil about it, you can come up with some great tacklers p.s. the warp speed multiplier should have an effect on warp acc/decel not just flat speed, that would really healp them out ================================================
Altai Saker Omniscient Order Verisum Family	Posted - 2006.08.12 21:34:00 - [57] Hi Ithildin, I just thought I would point out something you already know, the DLB and the 125 use the same grid, but the crusader has to fit 4 and also the damage from DLB is more on par with that of 75mm Gatling Rails.
IamBen Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.12 22:11:00 - [58] The ares is pretty good because its very fast. My only gripe with the ares is that its so stupid to have an interceptor with more structure than armor or shields. I can see maybe on a battleship because you can use a damage control but honestly on a ceptor having 600 structure and like 400 armor is just stupid. Thats what really needs to be fixed.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.12 22:33:00 - [59] Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists give the malediction, ares , raptor and the stilletto a warpscrambler bonus That's the most sensible change possible and has been stated many many times for monthes. ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.12 22:40:00 - [60] Originally by: Maya Rkell That's going to do unfortunately overpowering things to the Amarr AF's... Hmm, yes. It would push the Vengeance slightly over the top. The Retribution would still suffer from that terrible lack of mid slots. However, you are right in that the AFs would be dealing pretty godly damage. Problem is you've got a whole set of ships that doesn't deal competative damage. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death



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