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Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
277
   |
Posted - 2014.10.16 00:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello space people, today I want to talk to you about bumping. Relax, I'm not advocating its removal, only an adjustment to level the playing field a bit. Bumping has its place in the modern game for knocking ships out of alignment to prevent warp, but in high security space it's being abused more and more.
Bumping mechanics make sense in a way, if you think of it as a field of energy around a ship (inertial stabiliser etc) which is positively charged. Bringing two together is like pressing two positively charged magnets together, flinging them apart based on mass. I haven't read the lore on this, perhaps this is how it actually works in Eve's universe? Anyway.
Full disclosure: I recently lost a freighter in highsec. I was autopiloting, but not afk (working actually). I leaped to the keyboard when I saw what was happening and thus began a thrilling cat & mouse chase across two systems. A loss is a loss and it was an exhilarating (non)battle, but the issue I have is neutral bumping ships that never gain aggression play a pivotal part in the process, yet cannot be countered short of complete avoidance. Yeah it takes some skill to bump effectively, but multiple machariels is a bit much. Conflict and contest is good for the game (actually the core concept of the game), but you can't declare war on NPC corp pilots and there's no legal way to deal with them in this situation.
Alternatives to bumping such as collision mechanics won't work because of eve's indirect flight control model. It's far too easy to accidentally bump into someone and the carnage would be epic. It's not going to happen.
So here's my idea: When you bump into another ship while a propulsion mod is active, you gain a suspect flag.
That's it. You can still bump with NPC corp alts but you're going to have to defend yourself. If you've got plenty of backup, this shouldn't be a problem. Either that or bump without a prop mod, which is far less effective. Activating a prop mod in highsec would require setting one's safety to 'partial', but I think a case could be made for preventing collisions with NPC's from generating a suspect flag.
Ships can still fly around under conventional propulsion & running into each other by accident with no effect, which is important for docking areas outside of stations etc. (I'm looking at you, Jita 4-4). If a prop mod is active when the hit happens, there's a high degree of chance you've done it on purpose and that's an aggressive act. Prepare for a fight. If you don't want to be flagged, don't run a prop mod.
Projected Impact (excuse the pun):
Nullsec, no impact.
Lowsec, will be the same as shooting someone, flagging you as a target. Perhaps a good ice-breaker.
Highsec, bumping as a means of 'passive aggression' will only work if you avoid switching on your prop mod. It can still work to some degree but is far less effective. Due to the need to set the safety system to 'partial' to use a prop mod, it's possible people who like using them while in highsec may accidentally do things to make them suspect, which creates 'content' (and wrecks, which are also content). Wars become slightly more interesting, assuming people actually undock to fight. When fighting in someone else's space, a modicum of restraint on speed may be required.
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Paranoid Loyd
2253
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 00:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
 IB4L
"PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
13632
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 00:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
There are many counters to bumping already.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Paranoid Loyd
2253
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 00:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:There are many counters to bumping already.
*As long as you are actually playing.
"PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |
Paru DracoGaurdia
Slanted Anvil
0
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 01:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
but i like warping my orca into a large asteroid and it bouncing out of it at 5km/sec its soo funny and entertaining |
Sigras
Conglomo
948
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 02:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
This change would make all prop mods unusable in high sec.
Allow me to paint the exploit for you.
I am an evil pirate and I want to kill you in your pimped out navy raven. so I get a friend to warp into your mission in a stealth bomber and get in front of you while you're ABing between gates. The second before you bump he decloaks and as soon as you gain the suspect flag he warp scrambles you and calls me in to take you out. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6459
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 02:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Galphii wrote:Hello space people, today I want to talk to you about bumping. Relax, I'm not advocating its removal, only an adjustment to level the playing field a bit.
Somehow I doubt so...
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1588
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 02:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
The only change needed to bumping is that if your velocity is over max speed, you have dramatically faster slow down.
Then you can bump to stop align/warp, you can even move someone, but you can't lock them out of controlling their ship by shoving their velocity so high it takes 5 minutes for them to slow back down to max.
Max speed is supposedly because of the warp drive field drag after all, so if you go beyond that speed the drag should be incredible. |
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
The Revenant Order
2855
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 03:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
And more bleating....
"War is not measured in terms of who wins or loses, who is right or wrong.-á It is measured in terms of who survives"-á |
Hopelesshobo
Tactical Nuclear Penguin's
337
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 04:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Although a relatively creative solution it would not work.
You would break prop mods for use in highsec in general. You could have 2 warring factions, let's just say RvB. Most PVP ships are fit with prop mods. Someone decides to have some fun and positions their neutral to be bumped by one side. Suddenly one of the fleets are flagged suspect. And in come the neutral fleet for their fun because when you engage someone that is flagged suspect, you only get a limited engagement timer with that person. So the neutrals just engage 1 suspect at a time until all the suspects are safely in their pods.
A couple other specific examples
-HQ Incursions
-Using a prop mod to align
Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Adobe Raide
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 06:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
I like the OP's suggestion. Can it be abused? Yep. Is the present system being abused? Yes. At least the OP's suggestion would make the passive-aggressive bumpers work for their fix of irritation. |
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
48
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 06:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
a simpler solution would be to allow freighters to have highslots or drone capability (only up to 5 lights) or something to that effect.
Or a useage of @KB players to simply use the safe log if they realize what is happening....still allows for the afk'r or hauler bot to get blapped quite easily.
Seriously though...I have often wondered though if ships like a freighter had the ability to selfdestruct taking all loot and attackers with them....more ammo or such items in them the more damgae caused....
anyway
The current best ability to safeguard freighters is to actively escort them. Why not if they are carrying Billions of corp/alliance assets. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Ineluctable.
812
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 06:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:a simpler solution would be to allow freighters to have highslots or drone capability (only up to 5 lights) or something to that effect.
Or a useage of @KB players to simply use the safe log if they realize what is happening....still allows for the afk'r or hauler bot to get blapped quite easily.
Seriously though...I have often wondered though if ships like a freighter had the ability to selfdestruct taking all loot and attackers with them....more ammo or such items in them the more damgae caused....
anyway
The current best ability to safeguard freighters is to actively escort them. Why not if they are carrying Billions of corp/alliance assets.
And what are 5 Warrior going to do against a Machariel or a Stabber? Or a swarm of Catalysts. It takes longer for you to lock all of them than it takes time to kill you.
And what do you do with Courier Contracts? No one wants to pay for the money you theoretically owe those who escort you, which means they either work for free (and we all know how keen the vast majority of EVE players is about working for nothing in return. ) or the hauler has to further reduce their already meager income and pay the escorts on their own expenses without any compensation from the customer. I'm really looking forward to that. |
Mag's
the united
17984
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 07:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:There are many counters to bumping already. This.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Yolandar
Estrogen Industrial Enterprises
3
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 08:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
If you're bumped, safe logoff gotta work. They aggro you to stop the logoff, and sacrifice some hardware. ie. you can keep a freighter from warping with a noobship and a gun (intentional fail-gank)
This keeps the old ransom gig alive (time to sing a song?) but you gonna bring Concorde in for the sacrifice (making the bump & gank mechanic more challenging, but still doable).
It's a subtle shift, no new exploits. Nothing changes if the pilot is afk. A pilot active at the control shouldn't be treated the same as the afk wanker, that has never been fair, imho.
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
387
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 08:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
My only issue with bumping is that the risk/reward is whacky. |
Ellendras Silver
The Scope
Gallente Federation
152
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 11:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:There are many counters to bumping already.
i don't give a **** about high sec nor care i about freighters but tell me do they also work for freighters? i cant think of one besides webbing which isn't a complete counter but it makes it harder sure also not use auto pilot would make the chance smaller, but lets be honest here if a freighter moves and a fleet waits for them its chance of survival is not that good.
and freighters is the nr 1 target in high sec with this bumping strategic
tell me i am wrong
Carpe noctem |
Tij Lamor
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 12:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Commercial aircraft already have a collision avoidance system - TCAS. In an Eve context the autopilot should attempt to avoid collisions, it won't always be successful - such as a crowded dock like Jita - but the only way to insure a hit should be to disable the automatic collision avoidance system, which should require a target lock.
Give the bumper a choice. Guaranteed hit with CONCORD response or low probability of hit because autopilot tries to avoid it. |
Ellendras Silver
The Scope
Gallente Federation
152
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 12:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tij Lamor wrote:Commercial aircraft already have a collision avoidance system - TCAS. In an Eve context the autopilot should attempt to avoid collisions, it won't always be successful - such as a crowded dock like Jita - but the only way to insure a hit should be to disable the automatic collision avoidance system, which should require a target lock.
Give the bumper a choice. Guaranteed hit with CONCORD response or low probability of hit because autopilot tries to avoid it.
you want a auto pilot that tries to evade a machariel with MWD hitting a floating skyscraper that has the speed and agility of a turtle  good luck with that 
Carpe noctem |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
5789
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 12:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:baltec1 wrote:There are many counters to bumping already. i don't give a **** about high sec nor care i about freighters but tell me do they also work for freighters? i cant think of one besides webbing which isn't a complete counter but it makes it harder sure also not use auto pilot would make the chance smaller, but lets be honest here if a freighter moves and a fleet waits for them its chance of survival is not that good. and freighters is the nr 1 target in high sec with this bumping strategic tell me i am wrong
You're wrong, anything you want to keep from a gate is a target for bumps.
=]I[= |
Lenestar Tinsolis
Knight Market Logistics Inc.
0
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Posted - 2014.10.16 12:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:The current best ability to safeguard freighters is to actively escort them. Why not if they are carrying Billions of corp/alliance assets.
The OP's point is that escorts are ineffective against NPC corp bumper alts that do nothing but bump. You can't wardec them, and bumping doesn't draw a flag, so you can't shoot them without getting Concorded.
His solution actually promotes the use of escorts. The freighter surely won't be shooting at a flagged bumper pilot.
I like the creativity of this solution. It's minimalist, and it promotes engagement, collaboration, and attention on the part of players. As he says, it helps the AFKer not at all.
An adjustment to get rid of some of the exploit potential is to tweak the rule a bit:
If a Combat/Attack ship has a prop mod active and bumps a Hauler, the Combat/Attack ship is suspect flagged.
Or you could make it size based (Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser bumps a Hauler). But the key points are that you have to have a prop mod active and be bumping a Hauler to draw the suspect flag.
With those constraints it would be highly effective rule at identifying a legitimately suspect activity and providing an in-game means for players to actively defend against it. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
1664
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 13:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:baltec1 wrote:There are many counters to bumping already. i don't give a **** about high sec nor care i about freighters but tell me do they also work for freighters? i cant think of one besides webbing which isn't a complete counter but it makes it harder sure also not use auto pilot would make the chance smaller, but lets be honest here if a freighter moves and a fleet waits for them its chance of survival is not that good. and freighters is the nr 1 target in high sec with this bumping strategic tell me i am wrong
You are wrong. If you're using a webber to get your freighter into warp *and* you don't screw up you have to be exceptionally unlucky to get caught.
Lenestar Tinsolis wrote:The OP's point is that escorts are ineffective against NPC corp bumper alts that do nothing but bump. You can't wardec them, and bumping doesn't draw a flag, so you can't shoot them without getting Concorded.
But you can shoot them.
Lenestar Tinsolis wrote:His solution actually promotes the use of escorts.
The nature of the game, current game mechanics and the antics of bumpers / gankers promote the use of escorts, but people are stubborn, stupid, lazy, anti-social or some combination thereof.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
13638
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 16:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:baltec1 wrote:There are many counters to bumping already. i don't give a **** about high sec nor care i about freighters but tell me do they also work for freighters? i cant think of one besides webbing which isn't a complete counter but it makes it harder sure also not use auto pilot would make the chance smaller, but lets be honest here if a freighter moves and a fleet waits for them its chance of survival is not that good. and freighters is the nr 1 target in high sec with this bumping strategic tell me i am wrong
Webs
dont afk
logi
insta blap boats
Counter bumpers
Dont stuff billions in the hold.
ECM
damps
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Sugar Kyle
Snuff Box
716
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 17:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Yolandar wrote:If you're bumped, safe logoff gotta work. They aggro you to stop the logoff, and sacrifice some hardware. ie. you can keep a freighter from warping with a noobship and a gun (intentional fail-gank)
This keeps the old ransom gig alive (time to sing a song?) but you gonna bring Concorde in for the sacrifice (making the bump & gank mechanic more challenging, but still doable).
It's a subtle shift, no new exploits. Nothing changes if the pilot is afk. A pilot active at the control shouldn't be treated the same as the afk wanker, that has never been fair, imho.
Except that they target you and safe logoff does not work?
Low Sec Lifestyle - A Blog |
Ellendras Silver
The Scope
Gallente Federation
153
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 18:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Ellendras Silver wrote:baltec1 wrote:There are many counters to bumping already. i don't give a **** about high sec nor care i about freighters but tell me do they also work for freighters? i cant think of one besides webbing which isn't a complete counter but it makes it harder sure also not use auto pilot would make the chance smaller, but lets be honest here if a freighter moves and a fleet waits for them its chance of survival is not that good. and freighters is the nr 1 target in high sec with this bumping strategic tell me i am wrong 1. Webs 2. dont afk 3. logi 4. insta blap boats 5. Counter bumpers 6. Dont stuff billions in the hold. 7. ECM 8. damps
right, you are a goon so i am assuming that you know how your buddies do it, and maybe you do it yourself. I dont mind that like i said before kill as many as you please but dont tell rubbish here.
1 and 2 i explained already i don't think its sufficient.
3. they alfa the ship more or less as they need to kill it very fast due to concord.
4. you need a lot of insta lock boats with insta blap to save the freighter.
5. right, it could work but its hard to do, its much harder to bump a very agile machariel then a floating skyscraper
6. this i would agree on say 6 months ago but since a while they even kill them if they are empty
7. you know we talk about high sec right?
8. see 7
you forgot commandship but its not going to help as the shield and armor is not that much of the EHP and hull cant be boosted.
the fact is there is little a freighter can do in high sec and everything that they can do is debatable at best
again i am fine with it, but don't pretend that there is a ton of options that are perfectly fine, because that is a bunch of crap, i know it and so do you
Carpe noctem |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
143
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 18:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
I see bumps all the time as i travel though space. CCP falcon said that if you want to avoid ganks to either take logi or take an escort with guns. Neither of which works because CCP Falcon is an idiot as ive seen both. I watched a freighter in Uedama with logi being bumped, the gankers came in ganked the logi, then came back and ganked the freighter while the mach kept bumping him the whole time before and between both ganks. Taking guns dont work either because you cant respond against the whole fleet fast enough even having a fleet because it takes like 3-4 salvos and boom goes the target anyways with the gankers. Ive started experimenting with bumping and so far havent found a freighter on AP or player flown that can even warp out off of a gate before being bumped. So your pretty much screwed just jumping into a system and a bumper being there and just bumping you until the gank fleet gets there. you cant warp away unless they are stupid and bump you in the wrong way, and you cant logoff and get safe.
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
1666
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 18:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ellendras Silver wrote:1 and 2 i explained already i don't think its sufficient.
You've either never tried webbing or you need to refine your technique. The freighter pilot has the advantage because while the gank scouts will have reported your ship, you choose exactly when you de-cloak and already have your web ship in range. Incredibly bad luck or user error are the only two reasons why you'd lose your freighter in this situation.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
22
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Posted - 2014.10.16 19:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
Agondray wrote:I see bumps all the time as i travel though space. CCP falcon said that if you want to avoid ganks to either take logi or take an escort with guns. Neither of which works because CCP Falcon is an idiot as ive seen both. I watched a freighter in Uedama with logi being bumped, the gankers came in ganked the logi, then came back and ganked the freighter while the mach kept bumping him the whole time before and between both ganks. Taking guns dont work either because you cant respond against the whole fleet fast enough even having a fleet because it takes like 3-4 salvos and boom goes the target anyways with the gankers. Ive started experimenting with bumping and so far havent found a freighter on AP or player flown that can even warp out off of a gate before being bumped. So your pretty much screwed just jumping into a system and a bumper being there and just bumping you until the gank fleet gets there. you cant warp away unless they are stupid and bump you in the wrong way, and you cant logoff and get safe.
Because of falcon!
Constructive Part:
Bumping off station: use insta-undocks safes
Bumping off gate: in corp MWD hyena escort(s), or duel him if your too attached to an NPC corp (thats the minmatar electronic attack frigate with a web range bonus for those uneducated)
Condescending Part:
Bumping off station: Pilot better.
Bumping off gate: Pilot better. |
Mazzara
Gale Force Contractors
21
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Posted - 2014.10.16 20:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
I'm not a hauler, so I don't have to worry about bumping, but still, I don't care what ccp has to say, its a crap mechanic.
No matter how much you scrub, how hot of water you use,-áyou can't wash shame! |
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
279
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 03:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
A lot of interesting discussion here, which is always good to see. I basically came to the OP's point because I've watched a lot of the activity in Uedama/Niarja for the past few weeks and noted the ineffectiveness of logi/escorts. More than once I saw a freighter effectively 'held' with a BumpMach while waves of cats/taloses came in to destroy it despite the best efforts of neutral logi (and lots of them at that). If a wave failed to destroy the target, the mach would hold it there until the gankswarm could try again. And again, until it was destroyed. Using lowslots for armour/bulkheads doesn't help, because the target cannot leave the field because of bumping. Escorts buy time, but the attackers have infinite time due to bumping.
I tried to about-face and flee on my ill-fated journey and they simply followed me (getting ahead due to warp speed of course). I got away twice with crafty piloting (no mean feat in a ship as maneuverable as a building) but eventually the ship was surrounded by machs and couldn't get away. They caught the ship when I tried logging and sacrificed a small ship to scram and keep it on the field.
Another idea I came up with was to change mechanics so that a ship with less mass is bounced away from ships with greater mass. This wouldn't impinge on propulsion mechanics in HS but also effectively ends bumping capitals to stop them warping altogether. Adding a 'ramming module' which increases mass to allow bumping of capitals but also flags the ship as a suspect is an option here. The only other thing I can think of would be to kick players out of NPC corps but that opens a whole can of worms regarding war mechanics etc. Ugh, so much to fix.
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