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EW: Why The Hate?

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Tuang Pao The-Wrath	Posted - 2006.08.21 14:58:00 - [1] Quote: Seriously. Ecm kills the game. I saw this in another thread today. I don't understand where all the hate for EW is coming from. With a few exceptions every EW module in EVE has a counter module. That's balanced design. How we choose to fit our ships is up to us. If we fit wisely and anticipate our enemy's abilities we conquer. If we fit poorly we have no one but ourselves to blame. The modules in the game are varied and balanced enough to allow this. We all have access to the same equipment. I see no fault there. EW encourages teamwork and makes small ships competitive against larger vessels. This allows well organized newer players to be effective against the veterans. That's an advantage in game design. So, seriously, why all the EW hate?
Twilight Moon Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:01:00 - [2] ECM is overpowered, and ECCM doesnt counter very efficeively, and gives you no benefit if you arent ever the target of a jammer. ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
Laocoon Veto.	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:02:00 - [3] Frigs jamming BSes? hmm. and ECCM are pretty crap. half the time they don't work. ECM [b]is[/i] messed, and is getting changed. - Lao Veto. Corp
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:11:00 - [4] The best counter to ECM is ECM. Thus, it is broken. Also, even the effect adds nothing really in terms of enjoyment, which is, after all, what a game is all about. Sitting there defenceless, or killing a defenceless target is no fun for anyone
Tuang Pao The-Wrath	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:14:00 - [5] Quote: ECM is overpowered, and ECCM doesnt counter very efficeively, and gives you no benefit if you arent ever the target of a jammer. Overpowered how? This isn't clear. As for ECCM giving no benefit if you are not the target one can say the same about weapons upgrades. They offer no benefit if one doesn't fire his weapons. Both are situational. The argument is a strawman. Quote: Frigs jamming BSes? hmm. Yes, as they should especially in more numerous squadrons. Electromagnetic spoofing doesn't take a tremendous amount of power or infrastructure. Is it that veterans feel they should have unassailable advantage due to spending the time to qualify for the battleship? Is that what motivated the comment? To my eye EW in EVE is flawed because it doesn't go far enough. There is talk of shortening engagement ranges by design when that could be easily be accomplished by extending the effective range of EW. In truth EW should have longer ranges than guns and missiles due to the nature of the technologies.
Lord Spidey Hmmzor. Muffins of Mayhem	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:14:00 - [6] ECM relies on luck...not skill or a well thought out setup...hence it's broken
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:17:00 - [7] Edited by: HippoKing on 21/08/2006 15:17:10 The other huge issue with ECM is how it bases entire fights on luck. With guns, hundreds of shots are fired in many fights, and thus the chance balances out. With ECM, you will see 3-4 cycles in a majority of fights, meaning that who gets lucky once or twice entirely determines the outcome of a fight.
Tuang Pao The-Wrath	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:20:00 - [8] Quote: The best counter to ECM is ECM. Thus, it is broken. Isn't that also true of offensive weaponry? How is EW deserving of special consideration here? Quote: Also, even the effect adds nothing really in terms of enjoyment, which is, after all, what a game is all about. Sitting there defenceless, or killing a defenceless target is no fun for anyone. I've met several pirates who would disagree, but that's beside the point. You refer to rendering the target defenseless, Hippo. Players use range, speed and tactics to accomplish the same aim. How is EW different and somehow less deserving?
Tuang Pao The-Wrath	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:23:00 - [9] Edited by: Tuang Pao on 21/08/2006 15:24:42 Quote: The other huge issue with ECM is how it bases entire fights on luck. With guns, hundreds of shots are fired in many fights, and thus the chance balances out. With ECM, you will see 3-4 cycles in a majority of fights, meaning that who gets lucky once or twice entirely determines the outcome of a fight. This is a good point. The cycle time on EW is too large, too "granular". Shorter cycling on EW would minimize streaks of bad luck and bring them more in line with the game's limitations on turret weapons, which are governed by similair rolls of chance. That's a mechanical design issue, though. It still doesn't answer why there's EWAR hate.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:24:00 - [10] Originally by: Tuang Pao Quote: ECM is overpowered, and ECCM doesnt counter very efficeively, and gives you no benefit if you arent ever the target of a jammer. Overpowered how? This isn't clear. As for ECCM giving no benefit if you are not the target one can say the same about weapons upgrades. They offer no benefit if one doesn't fire his weapons. Both are situational. The argument is a strawman. Quote: Frigs jamming BSes? hmm. Yes, as they should especially in more numerous squadrons. Electromagnetic spoofing doesn't take a tremendous amount of power or infrastructure. Is it that veterans feel they should have unassailable advantage due to spending the time to qualify for the battleship? Is that what motivated the comment? To my eye EW in EVE is flawed because it doesn't go far enough. There is talk of shortening engagement ranges by design when that could be easily be accomplished by extending the effective range of EW. In truth EW should have longer ranges than guns and missiles due to the nature of the technologies. Huh? Lets see, im fitting my ship, I have a spare mid slot, now do I go with a ECCM which MIGHT if I'm VERY lucky stop me being jammed SHOULD someone decide to try and jam me, or do I fit an ECM mod myself and attempt to jam every target I find, also prventing them from jamming me? Answer should be fairly obvious. And frigs should jam BSs, especialy in squadrons? what game do you play? it isnt EVE, ONE frig can jam a BS, doesnt require squadrons of frigs, if it did then you may be on to a winner, but it DOESNT. ECM doesnt go far enough? are you frikkin crazy or what? CEO - Art of War
Dixon Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Tuang Pao Quote: The best counter to ECM is ECM. Thus, it is broken. Isn't that also true of offensive weaponry? How is EW deserving of special consideration here? Quote: Also, even the effect adds nothing really in terms of enjoyment, which is, after all, what a game is all about. Sitting there defenceless, or killing a defenceless target is no fun for anyone. I've met several pirates who would disagree, but that's beside the point. You refer to rendering the target defenseless, Hippo. Players use range, speed and tactics to accomplish the same aim. How is EW different and somehow less deserving? Range, speed and 'tactics' don't make you a flying piece of spectating poo. ECM is different as it makes your enemy _unable_ to fight back (no, fof doesn't cut it)... it's just boring and games shouldn't be boring. - - - - - - I have no strong feelings one way or the other...
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Tuang Pao Quote: The best counter to ECM is ECM. Thus, it is broken. Isn't that also true of offensive weaponry? How is EW deserving of special consideration here? What about tanking modules? Try flying a pure gank setup (no tanking modules what so ever: no plate, no DCU) in general PvP for a while and see how far it gets you. Originally by: Tuang Pao Quote: Also, even the effect adds nothing really in terms of enjoyment, which is, after all, what a game is all about. Sitting there defenceless, or killing a defenceless target is no fun for anyone. I've met several pirates who would disagree, but that's beside the point. You refer to rendering the target defenseless, Hippo. Players use range, speed and tactics to accomplish the same aim. How is EW different and somehow less deserving? Range makes you hugely vulnerable if someone gets in close. ECM works at all ranges except the absolute extreme (more than about 200km) Speed requires player skill to be used, and is counterable with a module (web) which reduces your speed to 10%. Tactics is all about player skill, and should be rewarded. ECM involves pressing a button. If you are really clever, you can work out what racial jammer to use before pressing said butotn
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:26:00 - [13] Originally by: Tuang Pao Quote: The other huge issue with ECM is how it bases entire fights on luck. With guns, hundreds of shots are fired in many fights, and thus the chance balances out. With ECM, you will see 3-4 cycles in a majority of fights, meaning that who gets lucky once or twice entirely determines the outcome of a fight. This is a good point. The cycle time on EW is too large, too "granular". Shorter cycling on EW would minimize streaks of bad luck and bring them more in line with the game's limitations on turret weapons, which are governed by similair rolls of chance. That's a mechanical design issue, though. It still doesn't answer why there's EWAR hate. But then there is the issue of lock time. Let's say we reduce ECM to 5 seconds. Jamming a battleship in a cruiser suddenly becomes the I-win button because he needs to get at least 2 failed cycles in a row to even lock you and loose a shot, 3 to do any damage.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:28:00 - [14] Originally by: Tuang Pao Overpowered how? This isn't clear. As for ECCM giving no benefit if you are not the target one can say the same about weapons upgrades. They offer no benefit if one doesn't fire his weapons. Both are situational. The argument is a strawman. That is a silly comparsion. Perhaps try something logical, like the counters of the other EW systems. Tracking disruptors -> tracking comps. Increase your range & tracking, your guns hit targets easier. Sensor damperners -> sensor boosters. Higher targeting range and faster locking speed. The only positive effect of ECCM is when someone tries to use ECM on you. Also, the very "Just fit ECCM" argument when people complain about the high effeciency of ECM proves that it is overpowered. You never see similar posts about tracking disruptors or damperners. What makes ECM so "special" that it should require it's anti-module to be "balanced" and the other EW modules do not? - it are not the skillpoints, ECM is actually less SP intensive than TD or SD. - it is also not the "caldari are meant to be the EW race". This justifies that caldari ships are more EW specialized than other races ships - which is the case, they have the only EW BS and the caldari recons have 3 boni for ECM while the other recons have only 1 boni for their EW module - not that ECM (without the ship boni) is more powerful than the other EW modules.
Deja Thoris Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:35:00 - [15] 1) ECCM is not as effective as ECM, the maths proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. 2) All other mods have a pre-determined outcome within a defined situation (to a large extent) - Guns will hit and tracking disruptors will decrese turrets effectiveness etc if you are within range. ECM is however chance based. 3) ECM totally disables a ship to all practical intents and purposes. Web and scram a jammed ship and it cant control range etc etc. Sure if we make this RL comparable then we could have more EW. I personally love to grind ISK for a shiny toy so 3 noobs with EW level 1 can kill me with one multispec. As Hippo said, when a counter is "more of the same" it is not balanced. Your reasoning is flawed, a counter to guns is tanking btw. Bottom line is it's not fun to fight EW heavy fleets because chance defeats skill, this is not fun.
FawKa Gallente Nova Elements The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:37:00 - [16] Because a Domi with nano's in the low - yes - all low, and 4 ECM's and a few nos can beat up every BS atm. Saw that in some eve recorded movie for some time ago - and that was just wrong. PVP battle is kinda based on 'if he has ECM I lose'. Try fighting on Sisi, you'll see. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=369662&page=1#10 Link to banner
Diana Merris Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:38:00 - [17] Fight = Fun ECM = no fight = no fun. The best solution I've seen proposed so far seems to be Maya's.
Centurin Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:38:00 - [18] This the first time I've actually seen someone defending ECM. I fly a Domi with 3 Hypnos Multispecs and I definitely know it's overpowered. ----------------------------------------------- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:39:00 - [19] That was my quote... thanks for making it anonomous, but I tend to stand by my opinions even if they arent popular sometimes. No need for protection. :) And this thread answers some of the questions you have, so ill just skip this discussion... been doing it before many times. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tuang Pao The-Wrath	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:40:00 - [20] Quote: And frigs should jam BSs, especialy in squadrons? what game do you play? it isnt EVE, ONE frig can jam a BS, doesnt require squadrons of frigs, if it did then you may be on to a winner, but it DOESNT. Right, one frig can jam a battlehsip, BUT the chance is small that it will and it won't happen often. Check out the relative strengths of EW modules and the native scan strength to determine the odds. Quote: ECM doesnt go far enough? are you frikkin crazy or what? Nope. For example, one of the longstanding issues in the game is how to counter long range snipers. It's common enough that the designers are considering forcing shorter engagement ranges. 150km snipe builds could be countered if remote sensor dampeners reached out to 200km. The sniper would be unable to target at that range and would be forced to move closer DUE TO PLAYER ACTION. This would not require a broad design rework of combat ranges. EW in this case empowers we players to counter the sniper if we fit for it. That's an advantage.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:40:00 - [21] Originally by: HippoKing But then there is the issue of lock time. Let's say we reduce ECM to 5 seconds. Jamming a battleship in a cruiser suddenly becomes the I-win button because he needs to get at least 2 failed cycles in a row to even lock you and loose a shot, 3 to do any damage. Exactly. IMO the whole "all or nothing" concept of ECM is FUBAR. It should have an completely different effect, severity determined by the ECM strength/sensorstrength relation and subject to stacking diminishing returns (just like the other EW methods, too, btw). What it should be? Beats me. Perhaps slowing down everything on the other ship. shield/cap regeneration, weapon ROF, cycle times of all modules. Basically all electronic modules getting errors, decreasing their effeciency, so everything takes longer (and lasts less time) than normally.
CB Apollo	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:53:00 - [22] Originally by: Laocoon Frigs jamming BSes. With my skills: Frig + caldari jammer II jamming Raven = 32% chance Frig + caldari jammer II jamming Raven with EECM II = 16% Frig + multispec jammer II jamming Raven = 22% chance Frig + multispec jammer II jamming Raven with EECM II = 11% OR: 1x caldari jammer II = 32%(Raven) 1x caldari jammer II = 16%(Raven+ECCM II) 2x caldari jammer II = 54% 2x caldari jammer II = 29%(Raven+ECCM II) Whats the matter with that? Please resize your signature, oh and I love you - Jacques
DarkElf Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Tuang Pao Quote: Seriously. Ecm kills the game. I saw this in another thread today. I don't understand where all the hate for EW is coming from. With a few exceptions every EW module in EVE has a counter module. That's balanced design. How we choose to fit our ships is up to us. If we fit wisely and anticipate our enemy's abilities we conquer. If we fit poorly we have no one but ourselves to blame. The modules in the game are varied and balanced enough to allow this. We all have access to the same equipment. I see no fault there. EW encourages teamwork and makes small ships competitive against larger vessels. This allows well organized newer players to be effective against the veterans. That's an advantage in game design. So, seriously, why all the EW hate? I haven't read all the answers here but let me explain why i feel ecm is killing the game. The whole system of ecm in my opinion is fine and sounds great, however - it's broken For example, my carrier with 1 best eccm has i think a sensor strength of about 140 something. After testing with a corp mate in a domi he can jam me on about half his cycles with a hypnos multi spec jammer which is supposed to only have a jamming strength of about 5. he then put 5 heavy ecm drones on me which have a strength of about 1 or something each and i was pretty much perma jammed. Now if you know how the ecm chance system is supposed to work you'll know that this is very wrong and ccp don't seemt acknowledge this. That for me is the issue DE
Tuang Pao The-Wrath	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:54:00 - [24] Quote: 1) ECCM is not as effective as ECM, the maths proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Then perhaps it would be appropriate to make it so. CCP, you reading this? Quote: 2) All other mods have a pre-determined outcome within a defined situation (to a large extent) - Guns will hit and tracking disruptors will decrese turrets effectiveness etc if you are within range. ECM is however chance based. Turret weapons are also chance based. We can maximize their effectiveness, to be sure, but in the end it comes down to a random number check to see if the damage is applied. How is EW different? Quote: 3) ECM totally disables a ship to all practical intents and purposes. Web and scram a jammed ship and it cant control range etc etc. Ah, this is how EW is different. It renders the players powerless. Thanks, Deja. Quote: That was my quote... thanks for making it anonomous, but I tend to stand by my opinions even if they arent popular sometimes. No need for protection. :) Right you are, Jim. Thanks for the source. Quote: That is a silly comparsion. Perhaps try something logical, like the counters of the other EW systems. Tracking disruptors -> tracking comps. Increase your range & tracking, your guns hit targets easier. Sensor damperners -> sensor boosters. Higher targeting range and faster locking speed. Indeed, it was intended to be silly to encourage participation. I'm not afraid of looking goofy if it brings us closer to truth. Looks like it's working!
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:59:00 - [25] Originally by: CB Apollo Originally by: Laocoon Frigs jamming BSes. With my skills: Frig + caldari jammer II jamming Raven = 32% chance Frig + caldari jammer II jamming Raven with EECM II = 16% Frig + multispec jammer II jamming Raven = 22% chance Frig + multispec jammer II jamming Raven with EECM II = 11% OR: 1x caldari jammer II = 32%(Raven) 1x caldari jammer II = 16%(Raven+ECCM II) 2x caldari jammer II = 54% 2x caldari jammer II = 29%(Raven+ECCM II) Whats the matter with that? Two griffins can make an ECCM fitting raven pretty near useless?
Tuang Pao The-Wrath	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:02:00 - [26] Quote: Two griffins can make an ECCM fitting raven pretty near useless? Or encourage the Raven pilot to bring friends to counter the Griffins. Aside from the technical limitations of the server hardware, which are considerable, anything that encourages teamwork is good in games. This is especially true in MOGs.
Wache Eisen	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:09:00 - [27] I agree with the teamwork notion. ECCM useless is your not targeted? Use a projector one to boost your buddy. You got one or two ECM's on your frig,..chances are you'll be lucky to keep one target jammed. They have buddies with them and you'll be 'primary'taged. I feel the same way about sniping,..I hate it! I can only guess the anti-ECM'ers feel as helpless as the anti-snipers. The answer I hear from the pro-snipers are,..get a buddy,...cloak in and warp to him,..etc,.. again,..back to 'Teamwork' my 2isk,..
Tharrn Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:13:00 - [28] 63 Radar strength (two named ECCMs) and jammed with a Caldari jammer. 78 Radar (2 named ECCMs) and jammed for all but one cycle in a gang fight (in fact the whole gang was jammed...) 78 Radar strength yet again and jammed consistantly until the Rook was blown up. On the other hand I have jammed a Scorpion with a single Gallente jammer long enough to have a Curse lock it down. There's too much luck involved really. Now recruiting!
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:21:00 - [29] we have the typical problem here at hand. Someone who seems to have no experience with ECM starts a thread and claims "ive read its overpowered, i dont agree". Ecm is wrong in so many different ways, tons of ppl with lots of experience see it every day. Ecm requires 3 skills and if u fit 1-2 mods on a frig you have an instant "i win" button over a ship which is 300 times as exspensive. I dont know any other mmporg where this wouldnt be considered "overpowered". As for the "bring a friend" argument, Eve doesnt have battlegrounds. This means combat is in the majority of all cases not organized nor fair. Like others stated the "random number" pulling doesnt work. Maybe it works in theory or it works if you compare all of eve but there are obvious streaks of luck or bad luck (which is neither a good thing), no eccm will change that or ever has (for the matter of ingame experience). In short, its broken. If you dont believe it do your homework read 1 gazillion of threads and spend 1-2 billion isk on ships and grind some "pvp experience". P.s. Dont forget i.e. Amarr ships who dont have mid slots to throw around for eccm mods and are handicapped with the crappy lowslot eccm stats. Its not caldari online.
Gaius Sejanus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:21:00 - [30] Quote: Looks like it's working No it isn't, else you wouldn't be keeping this up. ECM completely debilitates the target. No other module has that same function without either substantial drawbacks or the ability to avoid it. There's no avoiding ECM. You can't dodge it, you can't meaningfully outrange it, you can't defend against it (except of course to hit the other guy with ECM first, and that's no solution). Tracking disrupters are useless against missiles. Dampeners don't help you much when your target gets into blaster/AC/pulse laser range. The counters to Tracking/Damps have benefits all on their own. ECCM is useless when you aren't subject to ECM, and even then it barely works anyway. No ship tactic should be valid against all targets. ECM is. Therefore ECM is broken. And please stop bringing guns/launchers into this: 1) It is hardly a given that everyone will fit guns/launchers on their ship, even presuming their ship has the capability to fit guns/launchers. 2) Lots of defenses against guns/launchers. Plates, repairers, boosters, hardeners, transversal velocity, pure velocity...and of course, the more balanced versions of EWar. You want to balance ECM? Quintuple the cap cost for using them, be rid of all targeted ECMs (bursts only), and apply a 200% scan resolution penalty to the ship using the ECM and its drones.

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