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"Warp to 0 KM" option desperately needed

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Exioce Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.08.22 02:30:00 - [1] Everyone has bookmarks. Those who don't will die that one time and then quickly get bookmarks. And also copy them for their friends. And the results is just lag lag lag. There are tools now to catch people on warpin - mobile bubbles - so a "Warp to 0 KM" is not a path to invincibility. Neither will a "Warp to 0 KM" option save the pilot who jumps into a system to find himself surrounded by hostiles, just as a bookmark wouldn't. If he gets away there, he was going to get away irrespective of a "Warp to 0 KM" option. Pirates and gate gankers - please train up to use mobile bubbles. It only takes a few days for the medium and even less for the small. I even support the seeding of their BPO's onto the market so they can be produced easily and cheaply. Let this endless cycle of bookmark copying and lag begone.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.22 02:36:00 - [2] However, mobile warp disruptors don't work in low security space. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
mazzilliu Caldari SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.22 02:39:00 - [3] Edited by: mazzilliu on 22/08/2006 02:42:44 "warp to 0km" will not change anything for half the EVE population, and save a lot of database space. i think the cat v mouse game needs to be upped to some point past having to use instas, and perhaps make global warp disruptors more common. one can still make decent money killing people not on insta, though its a little hard, most the kills are rookie ships(in my experience) and if you can lock people before they align, then instas or warping to 0km wont help anyways will still draw sigs 4 isk click here
Drogarn Langlay Caldari The X-Trading Company Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.08.22 02:39:00 - [4] Hmm Warp Bubbles useless in Empire you can not anchor this in Low Sec. The "Warp to 0km" Option would to matter that no Low Sec Pirate can kill anyone in Lowsec. I think that is not a good Option thats good for the People with no Bookmarks but bad for People who play this Game as Pirate.
Exioce Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.08.22 02:40:00 - [5] Originally by: Dark Shikari However, mobile warp disruptors don't work in low security space. i fully support their use in 0.4 and below, with a security hit or aggression timer just like you'd get for killing or firing on a ship.
Exioce Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.08.22 02:49:00 - [6] Originally by: mazzilliu and if you can lock people before they align, then instas or warping to 0km wont help anyways exactly, this is how i presume the vast majority of kills happen - not because someone is slowboating to a gate. they would remain. and as for the slowboaters, they can't have much of value because they can't afford or don't know of instas.
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.22 02:51:00 - [7] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 22/08/2006 02:52:12 Originally by: Dark Shikari However, mobile warp disruptors don't work in low security space. Then we need to address that. Add new bubbles, and new ways to catch ("warp coils", etc.) to bring back the balance to roughly todays. (Some only catch war enemies, some for pirates, etc.) I support, along with those methods, a manual 0km warp.
mazzilliu Caldari SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.22 03:09:00 - [8] Originally by: Exioce Originally by: mazzilliu and if you can lock people before they align, then instas or warping to 0km wont help anyways exactly, this is how i presume the vast majority of kills happen - not because someone is slowboating to a gate. they would remain. and as for the slowboaters, they can't have much of value because they can't afford or don't know of instas. actually i made alot in hauler kills that slowboated to the gate the other day, but to be totally honest this fraction of 'dumb players' is not a reason to keep something that causes the game itself so much trouble and lag(bookmark tables) will still draw sigs 4 isk click here
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.22 03:13:00 - [9] If CCP would have used my computer cores (rigs) like I designed, we could get rid of insta's and pilots could choose to travel, or PvP, not both... Anyway, they went with Rigs... I'd like to see insta's removed, and 0km warp to option, only if pulling someone out of warp in as option from 1.0 to 0.0. I'm not talking at gates either, I mean actually pulling someone out at midwarp, or 100km in front of a gate, etc. We should be able to setup a warp disruption array with probes that are 100's of kilometers apart, so this can be done away from sentry guns in low sec, etc. Corps would need permits from Empires to set them up in 1.0 to 0.5 space during empire wars & such... Keep all the existing options, but MY GOD, we need an insta solution... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Maximillian Pele Caldari Jewel Enterprises	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:26:00 - [10] Instas exist in EvE for two main reasons: 1). The mind-numbingly boring travel, and 2). Gate Camps. Hence the problem isn't bookmarks, its travel and gates. If I understand it correctly gates didn't exist in early EvE. CCP introduced them in an effort to force the then far smaller player base to interact by creating "choke points". But much of what is wrong with EvE PvP has come about due to gates. Gates and Gate Camps have created an entire "survival is avoidance" mechanism of instas and WCS. Why? Because the only consistent way to survive the remedial class level of PVP that gate sniping/ganking represents is to use instas and WCS. Gates have also lead to alt scout poliferation and lame logging (both out before uncloaking and in as traps), and as a result EvE as a PvP game has suffered. Combine the above with blobs, lag and POSes and the future of EvE as a PvP game looks increasingly dire. Possible solutions? 1. Remove gates - have ships jump between stars old style, but with a large area of randomisation for arrivals to stop blobbing. No need for cloaking new arrivals either. 2. Allow tacklers to "tackle". Rather than preventing warp, allow tackling ships to follow ships into warp and then pull them out. 3. Introduce a penalty on numbers - at the moment there is no reason apart form lag not to bring the biggest possible blob to a battle. Blobbing begets more blobbing. 4. POSes? Haven't had the displeasure of sieging one yet. Reinforced mode seems to be the problem. Much like gates the increase in player numbers should have reduced the timezone advantage, so maybe reinforced mod is no longer needed? 5. Logging to avoid combat? Have the ship on a player who CTD or logs warp to a "safe" unscannable point in space. Until it reaches that point allow tacklers to drag the ship out of warp as per normal. 6. Log in traps? Again randomise entry points over a large area so that you are not guaranteed of arriving with range and will then need to rewarp (which will suffer from the very lag the log in trap creates). 7. Make freighters like every other EvE ship. Reduce their cargo size but give them slots for modules. Give frieghter pilots more options than logging. PvP in EvE should be a test of players, not who can follow the cookie-cutter templates that anyone can find on these forums. Fixing PvP in EvE requires fixing the disease - the root game design problems that have lead to the current state - rather than just dealing with the symptoms. In times of doubt I ask myself "What would BoB do?", and then do the opposite.
Baleor Targeyren	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:27:00 - [11] Edited by: Baleor Targeyren on 22/08/2006 04:33:18 um...not everyone has the time or resources for bubbles. Gate camping is kind of lame, but it is a reasonable source of income for some people, and a good defensive strategy for alliances. Warp to 0 km is a BAD idea. Instas really probably should be removed too. Yes, it'd be nice to have the speed of travel, but it breaks the game too much. How about a little more reality in Eve, and a little less catering to care-bears? There's my two cents. Also, Max, love the point you make, but alot of your changes are hardly options for the near future due to the sheer ammount of change that's required. There are solutions out there that are a little less time intensive. Although I'm a little too tired to think of specifics right now. =P -Bal
Gonada Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:29:00 - [12] warp to 0km is dumb too lazy to make a bm? youll like this idea. quit trying to make eve easier. eve isnt an easy game. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Red Ochre	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Baleor Targeyren um...not everyone has the time or resources for bubbles. Gate camping is kind of lame, but it is a reasonable source of income for some people, and a good defensive strategy for alliances. Warp to 0 km is a BAD idea. Instas really probably should be removed too. Yes, it'd be nice to have the speed of travel, but it breaks the game too much. How about a little more reality in Eve, and a little less catering to care-bears? There's my two cents. -Bal spoken like a true pirate.........
Kalixa Hihro	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:33:00 - [14] Originally by: Exioce Everyone has bookmarks. Those who don't will die that one time and then quickly get bookmarks. And also copy them for their friends. And the results is just lag lag lag. There are tools now to catch people on warpin - mobile bubbles - so a "Warp to 0 KM" is not a path to invincibility. Neither will a "Warp to 0 KM" option save the pilot who jumps into a system to find himself surrounded by hostiles, just as a bookmark wouldn't. If he gets away there, he was going to get away irrespective of a "Warp to 0 KM" option. Pirates and gate gankers - please train up to use mobile bubbles. It only takes a few days for the medium and even less for the small. I even support the seeding of their BPO's onto the market so they can be produced easily and cheaply. Let this endless cycle of bookmark copying and lag begone. /signed bookmarks don't help with a properly bubbled gate, neither will warp to 0km. CCP Let us throw this bookmark yoke off once and for all, please? Please please with sugar on top? /----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong.
Baleor Targeyren	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:42:00 - [15] Originally by: Red Ochre spoken like a true pirate......... Spoken like a true care-bear. Come on people, even if you are not exactly PvP inclined, don't tell me you want the game handed to you on a silver platter. Eve is supposed to be a living breathing universe. 'morally flexible' individuals do exist in the real world, and they exist in eve too, and they should exist. It's that whole yin-yang thing. There is just too much raw space for people to have to rely on bubbles and scan probes. Remember your first few days endlessly mining by yourself? Remember how boring it was? You kill the player-interaction and all of eve will be like that. Eve is supposed to be a social game. You are expected to interact with other people, you should have something unexpected happen once in awhile, you should have player interaction as a chaos factor or else why the F%&* are you playing an MMO? And also, I'm no pirate. I'm a pimp with an eye-patch. Remember that.
Doshu Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.22 04:57:00 - [16] Edited by: Doshu on 22/08/2006 04:58:28 Since campers can use Mobile warp distruptors or interdictor spheres in 0.0, there isnt much point to instant BMs in 0.0. In empire/lowsec there are gate guns and mobile warp distruptors or spheres dont work, so the traveller has huge advantage with instant BMs. My solution, create a skill, allow a person to travel as close to objects in space according to that skill. This should however work only if the pilot has activated that gate before (or atleast once a week/month.) This means people wont be able to give out BMs to those that never been in that system, and will force them to travel. PS Opinions are for as&*hole$, if you dont have a better solution, dont flame it. SturmGrenadier
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Gonada warp to 0km is dumb too lazy to make a bm? youll like this idea. quit trying to make eve easier. eve isnt an easy game. Insta's break the game... Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Tyranical Teabagger	Posted - 2006.08.22 05:16:00 - [18] Why not just make it so you can warp to say 3 km? You've still got a little bit of slowboating to do, but it doesn't make gate gankers hugely overpowered with the broken t2 ammo. Slow ships can still be engaged and fast ones need to be gotten on the other side of the gate or not at all. Kind of like it is now, but without the horribly dull and frustrating 15km in a battleship that you either put up with or buy bookmarks to avoid. Maybe 4 km I dunno, but 15 is way too much. you nee to solve the Bm issue without breaking other parts of the game and it seems to me that something as simple as this would do it.
Dukath	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Exioce Everyone has bookmarks. Those who don't will die that one time and then quickly get bookmarks. And also copy them for their friends. And the results is just lag lag lag. There are tools now to catch people on warpin - mobile bubbles - so a "Warp to 0 KM" is not a path to invincibility. Neither will a "Warp to 0 KM" option save the pilot who jumps into a system to find himself surrounded by hostiles, just as a bookmark wouldn't. If he gets away there, he was going to get away irrespective of a "Warp to 0 KM" option. Pirates and gate gankers - please train up to use mobile bubbles. It only takes a few days for the medium and even less for the small. I even support the seeding of their BPO's onto the market so they can be produced easily and cheaply. Let this endless cycle of bookmark copying and lag begone. I don't have insta-jump or insta-dock bookmarks. I don't die unless in lag infested fleet battles. I survive dictor + interceptor gatecamps solo in a battleship. It is perfectly possible to survive in empire, low-sec and 0.0 without instajumps so there is no need for warp to 0 km. As others have said that would break the game even more. Also bubbles only work in 1% of the cases. A gatecamp against a stupid enemy. It does not work when chasing someone, it does not work against a smart enemy, and it definitely does not work to prevent people instadocking or insta-undocking at stations. Besides it completely kills the distinction of ships regarding speed. With warp to 0km they all get to the gate in the same time.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:13:00 - [20] I definently support the warp to 0 km option and mobile warp disruptors in low sec space. It really is time to get rid of instas, ccp. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
DaReaper Net 7 Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:49:00 - [21] Create an Advanced Navigation Skill. Requires Navigation to lvl 5. Each level brings you 3km closer to the gate either when using auto pilot of manually. So for exsample, at level 1 you are not 12kn from it, l2, 9km, l3, 6km, l4, 3km, l5 0km. Make it a high rank skill so that lvl 5 takes a few days, most would just bring it to 4, or heck even 3. This would kill the need for instas, and woudl allow pirates to get the lazy people who don;t want to take the time to learn yet another skill.
Levka Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.22 06:53:00 - [22] Ok lets say CCP makes "warp to 0km" option. Does that mean they have to get rid of bookmarks completely? CCP cant take bookmarks from the game for one simple reason. Its not just the means of saving some time by warping on top of the gate. There is such thing as tactical bookmarks, around stations, gates, POSs and so forth. Yes you can say, use a cloaker as your tectical bookmark, well some ppl like solo PVP and we need those bookmarks to get information/get in range. Personaly, i cant think of any solutions. ------------------------------------------------ "If you dont have anything smart to say, say it often and loud" -Ed The Sock
Naburi NasNaburi Rens Nursing Home	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:04:00 - [23] Edited by: Naburi NasNaburi on 22/08/2006 07:06:30 Hmm looking at all the lag we had in the last few days, and people openly admitting they are hauling around 300+BM just to cause lag....yep Warp to 0km would take care of a few issues. No more Instas needed at all, way less lag g Originally by: DaReaper Create an Advanced Navigation Skill. Requires Navigation to lvl 5. Each level brings you 3km closer to the gate either when using auto pilot of manually. So for exsample, at level 1 you are not 12kn from it, l2, 9km, l3, 6km, l4, 3km, l5 0km. Make it a high rank skill so that lvl 5 takes a few days, most would just bring it to 4, or heck even 3. This would kill the need for instas, and woudl allow pirates to get the lazy people who don;t want to take the time to learn yet another skill. /applauds VERY good idea.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Levka Ok lets say CCP makes "warp to 0km" option. Does that mean they have to get rid of bookmarks completely? CCP cant take bookmarks from the game for one simple reason. Its not just the means of saving some time by warping on top of the gate. There is such thing as tactical bookmarks, around stations, gates, POSs and so forth. Yes you can say, use a cloaker as your tectical bookmark, well some ppl like solo PVP and we need those bookmarks to get information/get in range. Personaly, i cant think of any solutions. I agree, they shouldnt remove bookmarks completely. Bookmarks are needed for tactical locations. But i feel that out of everyones bookmarks, only a few percent are for tactical reasons. The rest are for instant travelling to gates. It wouldnt be hard to just invalidate the bookmarks that are within 15km of gates and let people warp straight up to them instead. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Naburi NasNaburi Edited by: Naburi NasNaburi on 22/08/2006 07:06:30 Hmm looking at all the lag we had in the last few days, and people openly admitting they are hauling around 300+BM just to cause lag....yep Warp to 0km would take care of a few issues. No more Instas needed at all, way less lag g Originally by: DaReaper Create an Advanced Navigation Skill. Requires Navigation to lvl 5. Each level brings you 3km closer to the gate either when using auto pilot of manually. So for exsample, at level 1 you are not 12kn from it, l2, 9km, l3, 6km, l4, 3km, l5 0km. Make it a high rank skill so that lvl 5 takes a few days, most would just bring it to 4, or heck even 3. This would kill the need for instas, and woudl allow pirates to get the lazy people who don;t want to take the time to learn yet another skill. /applauds VERY good idea. I dont like it. Its just a timesink and once everybody trains it, everybody warps to 0. It also puts newbies in a very bad spot, having to spend a long time just to travel around the game. I believe it should be no skills involved in this myself... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
DaReaper Net 7 Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:11:00 - [26] Originally by: Levka Ok lets say CCP makes "warp to 0km" option. Does that mean they have to get rid of bookmarks completely? CCP cant take bookmarks from the game for one simple reason. Its not just the means of saving some time by warping on top of the gate. There is such thing as tactical bookmarks, around stations, gates, POSs and so forth. Yes you can say, use a cloaker as your tectical bookmark, well some ppl like solo PVP and we need those bookmarks to get information/get in range. Personaly, i cant think of any solutions. sure, you have this advanced computer in your ship. it can accept cordinates and remember them. so now you have a new a kind of book mark, one that is personal to you, it can;t be shared and can;t be made withen a certing distance tot he gate. or something liek that.
Naburi NasNaburi Rens Nursing Home	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:11:00 - [27] What just came to mind.. why is 15km the closest we can officially warp to anyways? Is there some reason behind it ? Other than bringing some thrill into your travel if you dont have instas ?
Scott McClellan Forum Posters Anonymous	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:12:00 - [28] Originally by: Dark Shikari However, mobile warp disruptors don't work in low security space. Lowsec should be hunting grounds TBH, there's no reason for it to be camped 24/7. However, with enough snipers, it doesn't really matter if they have BMs or not, but I think forcing them into teamwork tactics in order to take out people as efficiently as they are allowed to now is rather fair, considering they're a PITA to remove.
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:13:00 - [29] The thing about this is, it is a horrible idea. It makes pretty much everyone invulnerable going one way through a camp in low sec. The worst bit is, it's better than the current system. As it is now, people have to copy hundreds and thousandds of instas just to work to a reasonable degree of competance. No-one really goes out without them: it's suicide. What this leads to is huge numbers of BMs that players don't really need, existing just on the off-chance people will use them. I have over 10k BMs, and over the next couple of days, I intend on getting several more regions. That makes me cry.
Brad Stone Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:20:00 - [30] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Insta's break the game... Lack of instas would make half the players leave the game (probably including me), and would therefore also break the game. I do not want to waste an entire evening spending 2 minutes each time waddling to the next gate on a 15 jump trip and then do it all again on return. I would have more fun watching paint dry or grass grow. I don't pay my hard earned rl isk to spend 80% of my valuable leasure time crawling to the gates.

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