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"Warp to 0 KM" option desperately needed

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Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:21:00 - [31] Originally by: Brad Stone Originally by: Kaylana Syi Insta's break the game... Lack of instas would make half the players leave the game (probably including me), and would therefore also break the game. I do not want to waste an entire evening spending 2 minutes each time waddling to the next gate on a 15 jump trip and then do it all again on return. I would have more fun watching paint dry or grass grow. I don't pay my hard earned rl isk to spend 80% of my valuable leasure time crawling to the gates. You missed the part where we suggest Warp to 0km of a gate as the replacement. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Naburi NasNaburi Rens Nursing Home	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:23:00 - [32] Its not only the newbies that dont have instas. Ive explained making regular BMs to players from 2003/2004 quite often in the last few days. There even were some that had no idea such thing existed. Sure a newbie can learn how to create a BM within a few minutes - but then again we still would have that issue of millions of BMs causing lag :)
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:28:00 - [33] Originally by: Naburi NasNaburi Its not only the newbies that dont have instas. Ive explained making regular BMs to players from 2003/2004 quite often in the last few days. There even were some that had no idea such thing existed. They must be pretty thick to miss how most other players manages to warp straight up to the gate...2-3 years of playing the game and not knowing what a bookmark is, thats just scary. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:34:00 - [34] Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 22/08/2006 07:36:22 hmm .. why not try something like this? every empire sells sets of temporary "warp-in coordinates" (aka the ability to warp on 0km to a gate) ... this means - you want some instas for jita? try to buy it from some official caldari state organization (e.g. like navy .. or those who are in charge in CS for traffic and stuff ) ... those warp-in coordinates can only be used manually (no insta AP-travel then), expire after 14-28 days, costs should be around: for highsec - 1000-10000isk per "bookmark", lowsec - 5000-15000isk, 0.0/NPC-region - 10000-20000isk, 0.0/deepspace(aka non-npcregion) - 15000-25000isk this means: if you want to use instas in deepspace regions ... the costs for warp-in coordinates could be then around 10mio isk per 14days. (attention - i mean in this case gtg in the numbers like it is now. you have 3 gates in system? doesn't mean you need 3 coordinates - you need 6) high-sec coordinates can be bought by official representatives of the according empire low-sec coordinates can be bought by the navy of the according empire 0.0/npc coordinates can be bought at the NPC stations with agents of the according pirate faction 0.0/deepspace coordinates can be bought from institutes for astrometrics (or something like this) why the coordinates expire? because of the relative position change of objects in space. (some people with more knowledge could explain it better ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: HippoKing The thing about this is, it is a horrible idea. It makes pretty much everyone invulnerable going one way through a camp in low sec. The worst bit is, it's better than the current system. As it is now, people have to copy hundreds and thousandds of instas just to work to a reasonable degree of competance. No-one really goes out without them: it's suicide. What this leads to is huge numbers of BMs that players don't really need, existing just on the off-chance people will use them. I have over 10k BMs, and over the next couple of days, I intend on getting several more regions. That makes me cry. I think instas are ancient, brute force mechanisms to get the game to work the way it really should. And it really hurts the cluster performence and creates a need for everyone to have bookmarks. Its really a bad, bad system. If they make every bookmark within 20k of a gate to not work anymore, and introduce warp to 0km option to gates, we have exacly the same situation as we have today without the server load. Ok, not every newbie has bookmarks, but eventually most people get them. So what are we really losing out on here? That was pretty much what I intended to say when I started that post, but my train of thought got lost somewhere along the way and I never finished
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:41:00 - [36] Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte stuff I really dont like making them a money sink (when you have to buy them) or a time sink (when you have to train skills for them). Travel to 0km should be available for everybody. If they introduce some solution that is actually worse than instant bookmarks, people will just get angry. And i would agree, since there is no point in making travel cost alot of money or take time to train for. Just make it easy and effortless. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Pehova Mindtriq Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:44:00 - [37] Originally by: Gonada warp to 0km is dumb too lazy to make a bm? youll like this idea. quit trying to make eve easier. eve isnt an easy game. Aren't you making eve easier when you use bookmarks? Celes vs Xelas
Michiyo Daishi Royal Knights of Khanid	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:44:00 - [38] Originally by: mazzilliu Edited by: mazzilliu on 22/08/2006 02:42:44 "warp to 0km" will not change anything for half the EVE population, and save a lot of database space. This in iteself is reason enough for it to get my vote. Less database hogging = faster EVE = less lag. Who's with me? -
Miss Overlord	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:47:00 - [39] bookmarks are a part of the game - its a volatile issue at the best of times
Wrayeth Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:48:00 - [40] Personally, I vote for the "warp to zero" option...for now, at least. It'd be effective as a stopgap measure that can be replaced when (if) a better solution can be found. Until that point, you'd have the fast travel speed of instas without the database and game lag caused by them. I could personally delete about 4000 bookmarks. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:48:00 - [41] Originally by: Miss Overlord bookmarks are a part of the game - its a volatile issue at the best of times Obviously. But things can change. And they should. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Naburi NasNaburi Rens Nursing Home	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:53:00 - [42] Originally by: Jim McGregor They must be pretty thick to miss how most other players manages to warp straight up to the gate...2-3 years of playing the game and not knowing what a bookmark is, thats just scary. :) Was even scarier that it took some of them a few times to understand how to create and use the BM... Dont even get me started on the Insta explaining pulls hair just thinking about it
Thelmarr	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:54:00 - [43] Originally by: Baleor Targeyren Originally by: Red Ochre spoken like a true pirate......... Spoken like a true care-bear. Come on people, even if you are not exactly PvP inclined, don't tell me you want the game handed to you on a silver platter. Eve is supposed to be a living breathing universe. 'morally flexible' individuals do exist in the real world, and they exist in eve too, and they should exist. It's that whole yin-yang thing. There is just too much raw space for people to have to rely on bubbles and scan probes. Remember your first few days endlessly mining by yourself? Remember how boring it was? You kill the player-interaction and all of eve will be like that. Eve is supposed to be a social game. You are expected to interact with other people, you should have something unexpected happen once in awhile, you should have player interaction as a chaos factor or else why the F%&* are you playing an MMO? And also, I'm no pirate. I'm a pimp with an eye-patch. Remember that. Who wants game handed to them? The pirates! They want "I win" button by forcing people to come to their little camps where they can pretty much shoot at pleasure with people having little to no chance of escape without actual effort or even player skill required from pirate (ok, they need SP to be able to fly and fit their ship but that's pretty much where it ends. they just go to spot, align and spend rest of their time sitting and waiting) Player interaction is NOT jumping in, getting locked by 6 snipers and being popped and podded. And no, the "get alt for scouting" should not be solution to this problem. If we look at amount of pirates out there we see that system has a flaw. Yes, piracy should be viable option as career but as it is it is TOO viable. Little effort, little risk (once you get in corp/team/whatever) and still getting income. Varied income is biggest con for pirates but with relatively cheap ammo and rather low risk once you camp up it's no biggie.
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:56:00 - [44] I disagree, if people don't like the travel times they should be fitting their ships out to travel faster not asking for an easy mode from CCP. Not only that but a warp to 0km option doesn't address on the of the other problem, it makes some ships invulnerable when moving about in empire space, that will be very annoying if you are trying to fight a war. The bubble argument falls on it's face becuase it fails to account for the fact that for bubbles to be effective the user has to put themselves in the path of the target just to have a chance to stop them. It makes actually chasing anything pretty much impossible, cruisers and battleships have a very high chance of running stabs and anything smaller often aligns and warps (especially when fitted with nano fibres) before the frigate can get in range, lock and activate the module. tbh I think instajumps should be killed off altogether, the problem is people are accustomed to being able to move slow, poorly armoured ships through dangerous areas of space with more or less impunity from danger once the main choke points are cleared and don't want to give up that safety. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:56:00 - [45] Originally by: Brad Stone Originally by: Kaylana Syi Insta's break the game... Lack of instas would make half the players leave the game (probably including me), and would therefore also break the game. I do not want to waste an entire evening spending 2 minutes each time waddling to the next gate on a 15 jump trip and then do it all again on return. I would have more fun watching paint dry or grass grow. I don't pay my hard earned rl isk to spend 80% of my valuable leasure time crawling to the gates. Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out tbh... Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:57:00 - [46] Originally by: Wrayeth Personally, I vote for the "warp to zero" option...for now, at least. It'd be effective as a stopgap measure that can be replaced when (if) a better solution can be found. Until that point, you'd have the fast travel speed of instas without the database and game lag caused by them. I could personally delete about 4000 bookmarks. QFT Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 07:59:00 - [47] Originally by: Thelmarr Player interaction is NOT jumping in, getting locked by 6 snipers and being popped and podded. And no, the "get alt for scouting" should not be solution to this problem. If we look at amount of pirates out there we see that system has a flaw. Yes, piracy should be viable option as career but as it is it is TOO viable. Little effort, little risk (once you get in corp/team/whatever) and still getting income. Varied income is biggest con for pirates but with relatively cheap ammo and rather low risk once you camp up it's no biggie. This is very off topic for a bookmark discussion, because it affects everybody the same. Pirates are just travellers sometimes too, and gets shot at by other pirates. Its not like they have a secret brotherhood of swapping spit in the shower. And its very easy to scan for snipers by just warping to the closest object to the gate on the scanner. Ive never been killed by a sniper, even though its been close when ive been lazy and not scanned the gate. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:02:00 - [48] Originally by: Exioce and as for the slowboaters, they can't have much of value because they can't afford or don't know of instas. or cant be bothered to make them as they are worth sod all.
Rayvonuk	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:13:00 - [49] surely no instas means less bookmarks therefor less lag. Maybe warp to 5km would be better and make bm's not work any closer to a gate than that. Anything that means less stress on the database is a good thing imo.
Nihn Lemai	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:14:00 - [50] I see instas as an abuse of game mechanics. And being forced to use them to even be remotely competetive just makes me cry. What also makes me cry is, when i get a new region of bookmarks from a friend, around 300 of them, we start copy them and I go make a cup of tea... with that not-so-nice gutfeeling that I just totally destroyed someones fleetbattle with loads of lag. --- I want instas gone... now
Thelmarr	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:15:00 - [51] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Thelmarr Player interaction is NOT jumping in, getting locked by 6 snipers and being popped and podded. And no, the "get alt for scouting" should not be solution to this problem. If we look at amount of pirates out there we see that system has a flaw. Yes, piracy should be viable option as career but as it is it is TOO viable. Little effort, little risk (once you get in corp/team/whatever) and still getting income. Varied income is biggest con for pirates but with relatively cheap ammo and rather low risk once you camp up it's no biggie. This is very off topic for a bookmark discussion, because it affects everybody the same. Pirates are just travellers sometimes too, and gets shot at by other pirates. Its not like they have a secret brotherhood of swapping spit in the shower. And its very easy to scan for snipers by just warping to the closest object to the gate on the scanner. Ive never been killed by a sniper, even though its been close when ive been lazy and not scanned the gate. It is not actually. When we want solution for instas we have to take into account it's effects on gaming. And forcing people moving from system to another to subject themselves to campgank is not going to improve the gaming experience one bit. When solution is made god forbid it from introducing new options for intercepting ships above 0.0 to counter warping to 0. But it SHOULD put the effort of succeeding more to hunter instead of hunted.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:23:00 - [52] Originally by: Thelmarr It is not actually. When we want solution for instas we have to take into account it's effects on gaming. And forcing people moving from system to another to subject themselves to campgank is not going to improve the gaming experience one bit. When solution is made god forbid it from introducing new options for intercepting ships above 0.0 to counter warping to 0. But it SHOULD put the effort of succeeding more to hunter instead of hunted. But it doesnt change anything. People using instas or people warping within 0km of a gate is exacly the same thing. It doesnt have any effect on gaming at all. Ok, some newbies doesnt have bookmarks (and some others), but eventually they will get them when they get tired of being killed at gates in lowsec. Instas are killing the cluster performence and we really need them replaced for the good of Eve. Seriously, its a stupid game mechanism. Bookmarks should be used for tactical movements within a system, not as a gate to gate travel mechanism, because it really hurts the cluster to deal with millions of bookmarks. It needs to go...for the good of the game. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:24:00 - [53] Thoughts: * Warp to <2km is good for EVE's servers and will not implement any new feature to the game except refine one that we've already got. * Warp to <2km with autopilot is bad. Want to be lazy and have dinner while traveling, then expect it to take longer. Let's say that the ship's computer alone can't compensate for the warp-field fluxuations around a stargate. * Bubbles in low sec is fine and dandy - they trigger sentry reactions. Needful to do, though, is to remove drones from the sentries target lists. One remaining problem: bubbles OUTSIDE sentry range still needs to be dealt with by mechanics. Having bubbles in high-sec mustn't be easy or simple, only doable. Dark skies torn apart Heavens open before me I, the light of death
Dahak2150	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:33:00 - [54] Instas are neither exploits nor abuses of game mechanics. CCP actually tells newbies how to make and use them. Scroll down to where it says "Setting Bookmarks". Now that that little bit is out of the way and I don't see these rediculous assertions of exploits and abuse, please continue the debate. :) ---------- My sig is boring.
Caleb Paine Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:33:00 - [55] Giving everyone a 0km option completely removes any form of effort needed to assure your safety, that's very much against the ideas of EVE. Allowing bubbles in low sec won't work because they indiscriminately affect all people passing by so that would create a lot of problems, you can't put a security hit on that and if you don't people will put up bubbles near gates just to **** people off. Fact is that there's just 3 places to fight, at a stations, at belts or at gates. This is already a very limited playing field and I don't see a way to increase that number of "arena's", removing one of those 3 will just leave belts and stations. To me that's not a problem much because I don't do gatecamping much where I am now but how are people going to fight wars? Your wartargets probably won't be in belts, and you can't catch them easily at stations either, besides I don't WANT fights to focus more on stations as there's already way too much going on there. What you COULD try is having a bubble that works in low sec and mid warp which you can set for a certain group of people, you set it up, someone enters local and if you're the bubble operator you rightclick his name and set "activate bubble for person/gang/corp/alliance". Make it like scramblers where a small bubble which can hold like 3 people and has 2 scrambling strength and a bigger one which can hold more with one strength, let bubbles be affected by WCS and presto. You now have a viable way of getting the people you want, people who really don't want to get cought can use their WCS (which, when the new changes go in won't be uber anymore) and the 'normal' people can run around without having to use a zillion insta's. THEN you can have people have their 0km warprange. To fend against uberness make those special bubbles a warp-to target so people can blob the campers, this will create nice fights NOT at already crowded gates and stations and makes for nice hit and run attacks. Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:39:00 - [56] Originally by: Caleb Paine stuff I just want to say that buying bookmarks doesnt really count as "effort". Its very, very easy to get bookmarks to every gate in this game. And if it wasnt for the fact that it takes some time to copy them, i would expect everybody to buy complete sets for every region there is. I dont see the effort argument as very valid to keep instas in the game. Think of a possible future when every pilot in Eve has bookmarks to where he wants to go. Then the whining will start that you cant kill anybody at gates anymore. Its much better to change the game mechanics TODAY instead of waiting several years with poor cluster performence. We all know where this bookmark hell will lead us. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Valerie Ganor Minmatar Defile.	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:40:00 - [57] I would simply say: DOWN WITH INSTAS! Let us inty pilots finnaly have a speed edge in eve! (yes i know we got a speed edge already but i meant the warping speed edge and then the 15km to the gate) +=+=+=+=+=+=+ Win the crowd...
Albus Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:41:00 - [58] Edited by: Albus on 22/08/2006 08:45:17 Originally by: Jim McGregor If they make every bookmark within 20k of a gate to not work anymore, and introduce warp to 0km option to gates, we have exacly the same situation as we have today without the server load. Ok, not every newbie has bookmarks, but eventually most people get them. So what are we really losing out on here? Quoted for extreme truth. I hate bookmarks.
Caleb Paine Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.22 08:48:00 - [59] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Caleb Paine stuff I just want to say that buying bookmarks doesnt really count as "effort". Its very, very easy to get bookmarks to every gate in this game. And if it wasnt for the fact that it takes some time to copy them, i would expect everybody to buy complete sets for every region there is. I dont see the effort argument as very valid to keep instas in the game. Think of a possible future when every pilot in Eve has bookmarks to where he wants to go. Then the whining will start that you cant kill anybody at gates anymore. Its much better to change the game mechanics TODAY instead of waiting several years with poor cluster performence. We all know where this bookmark hell will lead us. True but it still needs effort and preparation and if people can't be bothered to put in either they should not be safe in EVE. What I proposed makes the gate insta's unneeded completely so they could be removed, only leaving safespots and all that. Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Del369 Caldari Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.08.22 09:04:00 - [60] Originally by: Baleor Targeyren Edited by: Baleor Targeyren on 22/08/2006 04:33:18 um...not everyone has the time or resources for bubbles. Gate camping is kind of lame, but it is a reasonable source of income for some people, and a good defensive strategy for alliances. Warp to 0 km is a BAD idea. Instas really probably should be removed too. Yes, it'd be nice to have the speed of travel, but it breaks the game too much. How about a little more reality in Eve, and a little less catering to care-bears? There's my two cents. Also, Max, love the point you make, but alot of your changes are hardly options for the near future due to the sheer ammount of change that's required. There are solutions out there that are a little less time intensive. Although I'm a little too tired to think of specifics right now. =P -Bal if you don't have time for bubbles and working for your kills maybe you need a profession ? carebear maybe ? I want to die quietly in my sleep just like my dear old grandma, and not screaming in terror like her passengers!!

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