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bookmarks/itemIDs/db keys and a sinister plan... <3 for DEVS!

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Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.24 01:40:00 - [1] Edited by: Weirda on 24/08/2006 01:43:44 Weirda have been weeping at night for poor Valar and all the CCP dev that pore over ways to keep the DB (and health of TQ in general) fit while we do our best to undermine them... Got some idea for bookmarks... poor guys have prolly had at least some of these ideas a long time ago, but figured that they were going to make them go away eventually, so didn't want to spend any time on them... now they spend sleepless nights and longer downtimes to try to 'make space' for new items... anyhow. 1) make 'corp' bookmarks, or even 'alliance' bookmarks. once they are copied in there, they are available to people in that corp or alliance, but they cannot be 'copied' from there (only removed). this would be great because then member wouldn't have to make so many set of the exact same ones... and for other reasons great because when player x is booted from you corp, they no longer have you bms. They would just be in a corp/alliance folder in you bm list (like agent ones)... 2) make bookmark not even 'items' so that they don't suck up all the ids in that table 3) (and best yet) from a corpmate of Weirda (Sidiion)... this one pleasures Weirda a great deal and should make Hammer, Oveur and the rest of them climb to the roof and scream "BOOBIES"... you ready? thought you were... "If you inactive for more then 30 days (account not paid), they delete your bookmarks". OUALA! They need that space and you ain't paying for it... so sorry... Of course they could do away with them alltogether and create other option for insta-travel... but will leave that to (all the other) threads.... Does Weirda hear a "SIGNED" to 1, two or 3? __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now
Eternal Fury Caldari Brotherhood of Light	Posted - 2006.08.24 01:52:00 - [2] Edited by: Eternal Fury on 24/08/2006 01:52:10 1 - Love it. Would be a GREAT way to ease the BM issue for corps. 2 - dunno enough about the Database setup to give an informed opinion. If it helps, hey. Go for it. 3 - maybe 90 days would be better. As there are a lot of people who have alts and such that are inactive for months on end, or for people who leave, and then come back and find they have lost 500Mill isk worth of BM's. It would turn them off. But 3 months(90Days) seems reasonable. Brotherhood of Light. Small Corp, Big Fun. Wanna join?
Michiyo Daishi Royal Knights of Khanid	Posted - 2006.08.24 02:12:00 - [3] good idea! /signed :D -
Black Atom Caldari The Beiatch Corp Inc	Posted - 2006.08.24 02:15:00 - [4] Store them in a crypted local file, only allow them to be transferred in game but they're written to the users file instead of the server. I personally like the corp BM idea though.
Idara Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.24 02:21:00 - [5] Corp BM's would be great, as long as it was impossible for some bitter/****ed off person with the rights to just come along and delete the whole thing.
evistin	Posted - 2006.08.24 02:23:00 - [6] Thats a great idea. It would reduce the volume of unique SQL queries to a mere handful, Thus reducing load on the server, then it becomes possible to local cache bookmarks on the client side, since you could actually load them say the entire constellation they are in at one go. Then it could be sent as a single query set, versus 1 query set per bookmark. ------------------- The Multiverse Corporation-Training the next generation of Eve Officers.
Kyle Chimko Caldari M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.24 02:26:00 - [7] 1) WOW! now thats a great idea!!! fully supported!!! there would be no reason to keep a copy of bookmarks for each person and so why keep them??? good for server, good for you, no loss in benefits. /signed 2) have no idea about this to have an opinion. 3) hehe sounds great, but mabey extend the time more than 30 days. Great post!!
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2006.08.24 03:25:00 - [8] 1 is nice for corp or alliances but what about all those people that are not in one? I still think a universal solution need to be thought of to get rid of all instas that does not cripple the servers as they do now. 2 can you be more specific? I might not understand it it but iam reading two things here, even as in even numbers or stop instas from being items. 3 yes okay good, but back to 1 this will not be necessary if CCP comes up with a universal solution to bookmarks.(personally I am hoping they have a solution already and they will implement it around kali 1 or 2.) Still nice positive ideas, as usual
Auraurious Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.24 03:54:00 - [9] Well I see a few options. To me it seems easiest just to make a warp to 0 km automatic setting, and do away with instajump bookmarks (note I say instajump, not sniperspot of safespot). This seems to me like the best way as it should remove the whole database problem, without really changing the game mechanics (besides destroying the insta selling industry, which, while regrettable, seems to me like an ok sacrifice). I did find a few merits of the previous suggestion, mainly: If scan out a safe of an alliance member, you've just scanned out a safe of the whole alliance, thus making a well done triangle (3 different safes, warp to a different one every 3/4 of a scan probe cycle) of safes counterable (In my opinion the 100% invulnerability of safespots is a bit over the top). Now the problem I see here is that the corps alliances would simply request that members make a new safe in warp to the standard safe, and delete the old one every time (extremely annoying, and should it be implemented that only directors etc could change bms, another huge grind for directors). Of course a limit to something like "x bms every x minutes can be created per system per alliance/corp" could be put into play (no idea how hard this would be to code, or how system intensive this would be). Of course there is the long term debate as to instas creating a near invulnerability (frankly imo bubbles arent enough of a counter for me to be happy, and interdicters are to much trouble as compared with the ease of use of instas.) and thus ubalancing the game. I would like an eventual fix for that, but I understand the caution on the gms part (at least I assume its caution since they were originally against instas and haven't publicly changed their views) and am hoping for a solution that isn't horribly unbalancing. _____________________________________________
Nefrin Maldoes	Posted - 2006.08.24 04:02:00 - [10] Excellent ideas! I give this post and content a 10/10 rating. /signed That which does not kill us makes us stranger
mechtech	Posted - 2006.08.24 04:05:00 - [11] I love hte corp bookmarks idea. aliasing the corp bms in your people and places is much more efficient, and it makes corps more important as well, (solo players can just create a solo corp to make their own, leaving the noob corps to noobs, as it should be)
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:20:00 - [12] Originally by: evistin 3) BM do not take up a lot of space, probably 256 bytes for each field and 2 floating point integers and probably 1 or 2 other fields for sotring it on the database, so 1.5kbytes each? At 100k players with say 2,000 BM each thats 300,000,000 kbytes total, or 300 gig. Not a lot in the GRAND scheme of things. the problem (from the way Weirda understand it) is not the amount of space they take up, but the fact that they take ItemID - of which there are limited amount. Most of the crash over last month due to itemIDs running out so no more items can be made. recycling these are something that is done in nightly downtime. the reason for weirda suggestion are: 1) corp thing: less item ids used since there is not more then one 'set' (of course ppl would still have their own, but you wouldn't need to burn off the 2000 corp bms for everyone in corp) 2) 'not an item': make the BMS (which prolly represent a disproportionate percentage of the ItemIDs in use) use a different ID, freeing up the ItemIDs for well... non-bookmark items... 3) all those inactive account holding all those ItemID hostage for something as stupid as a bookmark... 30 days is enough... destroy them bookmarks (or keep you sub active)!!! as for the guy talking about 500mil of bookmarks on an alt... that inactive alt prolly using more DB resources then 100s of other pilot if he have that many BM! BURN EM DOWN!!! __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:25:00 - [13] I love the idea of corp bookmarks. Besides easing the DB load, it would also be damn handy, and the concept could transition to whatever new form the BMs take in the future.
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Za Po I love the idea of corp bookmarks. Besides easing the DB load, it would also be damn handy, and the concept could transition to whatever new form the BMs take in the future. aye - you agent shares stuff with you, why can't you corp? (or alliance) as for sirial soulfly... if you are in a noob corp, maybe you get instas to all the 1/10 rogue drone beacons... __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now
Omatje Minmatar Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.24 10:18:00 - [15] This would rock! Would save a lot of resources and a lot of wasted playertime in 1 shot. I hope they can implement it.
Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2006.08.24 10:43:00 - [16] 1) : best idea ever! I'd like to add something: only allow alliances ulimited BMs and limit the private BM's a player can have by some extra BM skill (charisma based of course :D ). something along the lines of 50 +100/skill level. would stop whole regions be insta-ed by anyone other than an alliance.
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.24 10:48:00 - [17] 1) FTW!! Wow, this is the best suggestion yet. \\ contact me in-game for sig-purchase \
Krayl Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.08.24 10:49:00 - [18] Edited by: Krayl on 24/08/2006 10:50:25 For point 1: Excellent idea, this would also get rid of a lot of the irritating bm copying time/lag/effort whenever you have a new guy in corp. So less cpu use for the server. Adding new bms to corp/alliance stack would have to be role based I guess (I'm sure there's an existing role that can be used... alternatively make it ceo only). For point 3: Would just irritate a lot of people imo.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.24 10:55:00 - [19] 1) Do you think people would remove their personal bookmarks? It would remove the need to send all BM needed for logistics to POS refuelers, haulers, whatnot. Definately a good thing. I know that I would not remove my bookmarks. Deleting all BM would hurt quite a lot of people. 2) ItemID, or ItemHandle is related to the DB entry, not to an actual item. It is the way most databases internally handle the entries - comparable to the position on a parking lot or a letter in the alphabet. 3) I am all for it! --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.08.24 11:06:00 - [20] 1. I saw this idea in the idea section a while ago. I like it. 2. That'd be a question for the devs, dunno if it's doable or not. 3. I don't really like that idea... 4. I just made this idea, dunno if it's good or not : Bookmark copy facilities. Like labs or whatever for blueprints, but for bm:s. Originally by: Idara Corp BM's would be great, as long as it was impossible for some bitter/****ed off person with the rights to just come along and delete the whole thing. More reason for infiltration for sure.
DDemon	Posted - 2006.08.24 11:09:00 - [21] I'd actually like to see BM's stored on the client instead of the server, if thats possible that would probably fix the complete bookmark thing
Splagada Minmatar Achuran Advanced Systems Technology	Posted - 2006.08.24 11:12:00 - [22] just add a freaking "load" button for bookmarks, assets, escrow, bounties, and all those long lists ! 75% of the time (for me) i accidently open the places tab because i crashed or logged off without switching back to "buddies" my bookmark queries would be reduced by the same amount with a load button like in the journal - AAST is looking for a mining director and miners
Razin	Posted - 2006.08.24 14:54:00 - [23] Originally by: DDemon I'd actually like to see BM's stored on the client instead of the server, if thats possible that would probably fix the complete bookmark thing This would allow bookmark editing exploits. To the OP: the first idea is excellent! Devs need to see.
Kraven Kor Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.24 15:13:00 - [24] Weirda, sometimes -- just sometimes -- you're my hero. This is one of those times. Strength through Unity, Discipline, and Honor!
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.24 20:44:00 - [25] thanks for compliments on idea #1. actually - weirda posted it on idea forum over year ago pretty sure. also am sure others have thought about this. one of the main reason a facility like that would be nice (for bookmark - or possibly whatever replace them) and the POINT of having them be corp/alliance specific is that one of the major point of HAVING corp/alliance is to be able to get stronger through shared intel/logistic. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now

kieron	Posted - 2006.08.24 21:03:00 - [26] I always get a kick out of Weirda's posts. Forwarding this one to the guys for a look. kieron Community Manager, EVE Online

Kitty O'Shay Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.08.24 21:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Weirda 1) make 'corp' bookmarks, or even 'alliance' bookmarks. once they are copied in there, they are available to people in that corp or alliance, but they cannot be 'copied' from there (only removed). this would be great because then member wouldn't have to make so many set of the exact same ones... and for other reasons great because when player x is booted from you corp, they no longer have you bms. They would just be in a corp/alliance folder in you bm list (like agent ones)... Underlined what needs to be a corp role, or director/ceo access only. Otherwise you could greif an entire alliance with an alt deleting the BMs in the middle of a fleet op! -- 1 in 10 chance to win a battleship!
Scorpyn Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.08.24 21:22:00 - [28] Originally by: Kitty O'Shay Originally by: Weirda 1) make 'corp' bookmarks, or even 'alliance' bookmarks. once they are copied in there, they are available to people in that corp or alliance, but they cannot be 'copied' from there (only removed). this would be great because then member wouldn't have to make so many set of the exact same ones... and for other reasons great because when player x is booted from you corp, they no longer have you bms. They would just be in a corp/alliance folder in you bm list (like agent ones)... Underlined what needs to be a corp role, or director/ceo access only. Otherwise you could greif an entire alliance with an alt deleting the BMs in the middle of a fleet op! Adding stuff there would have to be a role aswell, otherwise you could just make lots of bookmarks with the same name etc.
Isip	Posted - 2006.08.24 21:43:00 - [29] 1) This is an awesome idea! Not because it might improve DB performance, but just and awesome feature in itself. 2) The problem here is that in order to trade BM's they currently need to be items. Otherwise a new mechanism needs to be created for trading non-items such as true BM's. 3) This might do a little, but why not just optimise the database so that it pushes the BM's for inactive accounts out of the cached records. BM's can't take up very much space on the hard drive. If properly indexed the data for inactive accounts should have minimal effect on the system performance. I expect that the DB admins are already well ahead of us here. I see a lot of suggestions on the forum calling for client-side bookmarks. I don't see how this will improve anything. The main problem with copying bookmarks is that you need to move them to your hanger/cargo hold/container. If we are going to change bookmark copying so that it no longer requires converting them into items, that in itself would have a greater effect then moving the bookmarks to the client. As for trading bookmarks, as I noted above, you still have to turn them into items in your hanger. Unless we move your hanger client side (no way in hell that is going to happen) then the client side bookmarks have changed nothing, you will still be waiting for the bookmarks to transfer/copy to you hanger. As for lag when opening your bookmarks, this is an issue with client side caching, not a fundimental issue of where the bookmarks are stored. I agree that the current bookmark handling code could be improved. I don't see client-side bookmarks as a solution, it would just make using more than one computer that much harder. However, I really like the idea of Corp/Alliance bookmarks. This adds new functionallity to the game, and helps with the bookmark copying issue if in no other way then limiting the reasons why anyone would want to copy bookmarks.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.24 21:54:00 - [30] Originally by: kieron I always get a kick out of Weirda's posts. Forwarding this one to the guys for a look. Thank you so much. Corp/allaince bookmarks = 4TW! --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.

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