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Rhuined
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Posted - 2006.08.25 03:19:00 -
[1]
Which would win? (given that both the pilots had the same skills given their respected class/race). Your opinions please.
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Darpz
Rampage Eternal
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Posted - 2006.08.25 03:41:00 -
[2]
the vaga wouldn't lose lets just say that
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Andrea Jaruwalski
Caldari Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.25 03:44:00 -
[3]
If the ishtar pilot is an idiot, Vaga wins. If the vaga pilot is an idiot, ishtar wins. If the ishtar pilot is good, the vaga warps. If the ishtar pilot is good, the vaga warps. If the ishtar pilot is good, the vaga warps. If the ishtar pilot is good, the vaga warps. If the ishtar pilot is good, the vaga warps. If the ishtar pilot is good, the vaga warps. If the ishtar pilot is good, the vaga warps.
Yea.
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franny
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2006.08.25 03:45:00 -
[4]
if the ishtar has the std nos/ecm/drones/tank setup, and the vaga has the wcs/whatever setup, one will get bored and the other will warp off
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xeom
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.08.25 04:08:00 -
[5]
Currently its really hard to kill a vaga because of stabs. Once the wcs nerf comes in i would think both a ishtar & cerebus could kill a vaga easly.
CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? |
Corvus Crax
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Posted - 2006.08.25 05:45:00 -
[6]
Not sure the use of stabs matters really. A vagabond with the right mods and implants will have no trouble getting out of scramble range fast enough to get out if things go bad...
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.08.25 05:58:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Corvus Crax Not sure the use of stabs matters really. A vagabond with the right mods and implants will have no trouble getting out of scramble range fast enough to get out if things go bad...
Esp. since those vagabonds will be sporting nanofibers or inertia stabs (if they change them).
---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.25 06:47:00 -
[8]
Vagabond is IMHO the most overpowered HAC in game. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 07:19:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/08/2006 07:25:22
Originally by: xeom Currently its really hard to kill a vaga because of stabs. Once the wcs nerf comes in i would think both a ishtar & cerebus could kill a vaga easly.
Depends on the nerf. Last time I heard about the wcs nerf, I think they were discussing -20% targeting speed and +20% signature radius? So yeah, having a few wcs would indeed make the Vaga take so much damage that its no longer viable for its role as a hit & run ship.
Caldari & Gallente will be back at the top, and the Tuxford order is restored.
The only reason that gallente and caldari get away with being overpowered is because they have so many players. I guess its noticable when they get beat by something, because then a huge number of people will start whining. But hey, if you cant beat them, join them.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.25 07:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jim McGregor The only reason that gallente and caldari get away with being overpowered is because they have so many players. I guess its noticable when they get beat by something, because then a huge number of people will start whining. But hey, if you cant beat them, join them.
I wont argue with you on Caldari, because i think you are right. Missiles were all the time the easy way of fighting. But as a Blasterpilot i cant sign your view on Gallente ships.
Blasters are and was gimped as long as i am playing this game. And Rails were hard to fit on gallente ships since the same timeperiod. _________________________ Noob In Action - [NIA]
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Chee
Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.25 07:37:00 -
[11]
I never fly with stabs, and it works perfectly fine without them. The tactics dont change, your just screwed when u make a mistake with the nerf in the vaga. (and rightly so imo)
Ishtar vs Vaga should make a vaga run. If the ishtar pilot is rich and uses 19km nos he actually stands a chance on catching him if he plays smart. Vaga cant tank the drones long enough to break the ishtar tank, and killing all the drones take too long. Thats my experience at least. maybe there are people out there who did beat ishtars.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 07:39:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/08/2006 07:39:04
Originally by: Chee I never fly with stabs, and it works perfectly fine without them. The tactics dont change, your just screwed when u make a mistake with the nerf in the vaga. (and rightly so imo)
Ishtar vs Vaga should make a vaga run. If the ishtar pilot is rich and uses 19km nos he actually stands a chance on catching him if he plays smart. Vaga cant tank the drones long enough to break the ishtar tank, and killing all the drones take too long. Thats my experience at least. maybe there are people out there who did beat ishtars.
So why isnt the ishtar overpowered? It seems to me that the Vaga is overpowered when another hac cant kill it. But when the ishtar or cerberus kills another hac, its the way it should be?
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
KilROCK
Minmatar Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.25 07:58:00 -
[13]
I don't know... almost 500DPS, going 2.8km/s with over 4k Armor and good resistance, can actually jam. Sounds to me like my ishtar isn't exactly that far from a vagabond..
I guess it just hurts to leave the puppies behind when you try to take on more than you can chew.
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Chee
Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.25 08:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/08/2006 07:39:04
Originally by: Chee I never fly with stabs, and it works perfectly fine without them. The tactics dont change, your just screwed when u make a mistake with the nerf in the vaga. (and rightly so imo)
Ishtar vs Vaga should make a vaga run. If the ishtar pilot is rich and uses 19km nos he actually stands a chance on catching him if he plays smart. Vaga cant tank the drones long enough to break the ishtar tank, and killing all the drones take too long. Thats my experience at least. maybe there are people out there who did beat ishtars.
So why isnt the ishtar overpowered? It seems to me that the Vaga is overpowered when another hac cant kill it. But when the ishtar or cerberus kills another hac, its the way it should be?
CCP will never stop tuning and players will never stop whining, or the other way around. And you cannot prevent certain rock/paper/scissor situations. In either piloting skill or pure stat based. Yes its how things are and always will be. the stabnerf is an issue not directly related to hac's but will certainly even things out for the vaga.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 08:23:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/08/2006 08:24:04
Originally by: Chee
the stabnerf is an issue not directly related to hac's but will certainly even things out for the vaga.
Heh, yeah... lets just say that im selling my Vagabonds before the nerf. Then perhaps rebuying them after the nerf. I think it will have a massive effect on the Vaga prices. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2006.08.25 09:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/08/2006 08:24:04
Originally by: Chee
the stabnerf is an issue not directly related to hac's but will certainly even things out for the vaga.
Heh, yeah... lets just say that im selling my Vagabonds before the nerf. Then perhaps rebuying them after the nerf. I think it will have a massive effect on the Vaga prices.
Tux said the nerf that they where testing was be targeting range and speed not signature radius. That would little effect on a vaga. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.25 09:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/08/2006 07:39:04
Originally by: Chee I never fly with stabs, and it works perfectly fine without them. The tactics dont change, your just screwed when u make a mistake with the nerf in the vaga. (and rightly so imo)
Ishtar vs Vaga should make a vaga run. If the ishtar pilot is rich and uses 19km nos he actually stands a chance on catching him if he plays smart. Vaga cant tank the drones long enough to break the ishtar tank, and killing all the drones take too long. Thats my experience at least. maybe there are people out there who did beat ishtars.
So why isnt the ishtar overpowered? It seems to me that the Vaga is overpowered when another hac cant kill it. But when the ishtar or cerberus kills another hac, its the way it should be?
Vaga isn't really overpowered, it just favors a certain playstyle... ( stab***** ) Cerberus was made overpowered, and ishtar was overpowered on release, but was given crappy bonuses for that reason... and wasn't so bad when nos wheren't flavor of the month and ignoring EW. The bonus to drone damage could be lower though.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 09:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gariuys
Vaga isn't really overpowered, it just favors a certain playstyle... ( stab***** ) Cerberus was made overpowered, and ishtar was overpowered on release, but was given crappy bonuses for that reason... and wasn't so bad when nos wheren't flavor of the month and ignoring EW. The bonus to drone damage could be lower though.
Whats bugging me is that its OK that some ships are overpowered and everybody just accepts it for what it is. But when a minmatar or amarr ship is better than the established caldari & gallente superiority, its deemed as "wrong" and should be corrected.
Why? Its just so wrong... every race should have their strong ships, and not just caldari and gallente in my opinion.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.25 09:41:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 25/08/2006 09:43:17
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Gariuys
Vaga isn't really overpowered, it just favors a certain playstyle... ( stab***** ) Cerberus was made overpowered, and ishtar was overpowered on release, but was given crappy bonuses for that reason... and wasn't so bad when nos wheren't flavor of the month and ignoring EW. The bonus to drone damage could be lower though.
Whats bugging me is that its OK that some ships are overpowered and everybody just accepts it for what it is. But when a minmatar or amarr ship is better than the established caldari & gallente superiority, its deemed as "wrong" and should be corrected.
Why? Its just so wrong... every race should have their strong ships, and not just caldari and gallente in my opinion.
1 pilot can kill a smart or stupid Amarr, Caldari or Gallente HAC pilot. 2-3 pilots are needed to kill a smart Vagabond pilot. Kinda sad TBH.
FYI, topic has been discussed in here. Came across by accident. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
Asnar
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.25 09:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Gariuys
Vaga isn't really overpowered, it just favors a certain playstyle... ( stab***** ) Cerberus was made overpowered, and ishtar was overpowered on release, but was given crappy bonuses for that reason... and wasn't so bad when nos wheren't flavor of the month and ignoring EW. The bonus to drone damage could be lower though.
Whats bugging me is that its OK that some ships are overpowered and everybody just accepts it for what it is. But when a minmatar or amarr ship is better than the established caldari & gallente superiority, its deemed as "wrong" and should be corrected.
Why? Its just so wrong... every race should have their strong ships, and not just caldari and gallente in my opinion.
It's not okay, Ishtar is hard to fix though, make it too weak and the disadvantage of having your drones shot down makes it useless. We desperatly need a EW "fix" though. Cerberus was a horrible mistake brought about by the whining that lotsa range and lotsa missile benefits wasn't enough turning it into the abomination to balance it is today.
Vagabond doesn't need fixing IMHO, it's good at what it does, being fast, and does reasonable damage as well, paperthin though. Fix WCS and Vaga is fine ( dead when caught, quite alive when not )
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 09:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
1 pilot can kill a smart or stupid Amarr, Caldari or Gallente HAC pilot. 2-3 pilots are needed to kill a smart Vagabond pilot. Kinda sad TBH.
The Vaga SHOULD be hard to catch. If its up vs 2-3 pilots, it will most likely have to warp out since it cannot sustain the damage. Running away is more of a loss than a win in my book.
I dont think you have ever flown one...most pilots that actually do fly them says thay they spend alot of time running away, probably more so than actually winning the fights. The Vaga is good for 1 vs 1, which is its purpose in the game. Even the description says "for guerilla work, the vagabond cant be beat". For once, thats actually true.
There is nothing wrong with the Vaga, and after the wcs nerf, life in one will become quite dangerous. --- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.25 09:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
1 pilot can kill a smart or stupid Amarr, Caldari or Gallente HAC pilot. 2-3 pilots are needed to kill a smart Vagabond pilot. Kinda sad TBH.
The Vaga SHOULD be hard to catch. If its up vs 2-3 pilots, it will most likely have to warp out since it cannot sustain the damage. Running away is more of a loss than a win in my book.
I dont think you have ever flown one...most pilots that actually do fly them says thay they spend alot of time running away, probably more so than actually winning the fights. The Vaga is good for 1 vs 1, which is its purpose in the game. Even the description says "for guerilla work, the vagabond cant be beat". For once, thats actually true.
There is nothing wrong with the Vaga, and after the wcs nerf, life in one will become quite dangerous.
If Hoshi is right about WCS, it will not effect the Vagabond. No Vagabond with 2 WCS is going to engage at 60km. It is a close range ship. Vagabond should be hard to catch but in the current patch, Vagabond is almost impossible to catch unless the pilot is half asleep or slow in thinking. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2006.08.25 10:05:00 -
[23]
Tuxford saying it's targeting range and targeting speed.
Link --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.25 10:09:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hoshi Tuxford saying it's targeting range and targeting speed.
Link
Got this from Feline Ferocity.
The Caldari Prayer
Our missles, who art in launchers Hallowed be thy payload Thy warhead come Our enemies be done In low sec As it is in Empire Give us this gank Our daily gank And forgive us our WCS's But we won't forgive them that use them against us And lead us not into bubbles, But deliver us from scramblers For thine is the thermal, The explosive, The kinetic And the EM
Amen
WCS nerf is a Caldari nerf. Eagles and WCS dont mix. Raven and WCS dont mix. Cerberus and WCS dont mix. Not that I really care anyway.
--------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 10:12:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 25/08/2006 10:14:57
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
If Hoshi is right about WCS, it will not effect the Vagabond. No Vagabond with 2 WCS is going to engage at 60km. It is a close range ship. Vagabond should be hard to catch but in the current patch, Vagabond is almost impossible to catch unless the pilot is half asleep or slow in thinking.
Yep, thats its purpose. You are simply assuming its wrong for a ship to not be easily catchable, when its really not.
I can go on and on about how ecm ravens and ecm dominix rules the 1 vs 1 battleship fights, or how drone carriers in general are almost impossible to beat, or how elite frigates are very hard to kill in larger ships, but you already know these things.
Now ecm will hopefully get nerfed and balance out the madness, and wcs too. I just hope we dont see a caldari or gallente ship as the "best" in every damn category, because its frankly not fair to the ones who invest millions of skillpoints in those races to make them worse than the rest.
Just think about it.. when was the last time you saw a "nerf typhoon" or "nerf tempest" in these forums? It doesnt happen. Why? Is it random factors that make caldari & gallente ships be seen as the best in the game? I dont think so.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Big Bossu
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Posted - 2006.08.25 10:16:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Big Bossu on 25/08/2006 10:17:41 Vaga wouldn't die.
All hacs are basically dmg/rof bonus 25%, bigger shield/armor, extra resists, extra slots.
Zealot - +25% dmg from Omen (And extra grid)
Eagle - +25% dmg, double optimal bonus
Deimos - +25% dmg, falloff bonus
Cerberus - +25% better rof, missle flight(?) bonus
Muninn - +25% dmg
Sacrilige - (nt)
ISHTAR: Dronebay is faaar larger compared to Vexor(75m^3). Even if Vexor wanted to use Heavys, ishtar would still get +66% dmg compared to Vexor and still have room for spare heavys/smaller drones. Solution to that would be making drone bonuses only affecting medium drones for example. Excellent slot layout as well.
VAGABOND: It gets the base of a stabber(speed) and it damage base comes from Rupture. Vaga gets a 56% dmg increase compared to Stabber... That and excellent slot layout.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.25 10:16:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yep, thats its purpose. You are simply assuming its wrong for a ship to not be easily catchable, when its really not.
Well, I really hope the invention doesnt get released in Kali and leave it to another year. I am willing to bet that Vagabond price will overtake Cerberus price by a big margin. Vagabond is really no doubt the best/useful HAC in game. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 10:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yep, thats its purpose. You are simply assuming its wrong for a ship to not be easily catchable, when its really not.
Well, I really hope the invention doesnt get released in Kali and leave it to another year. I am willing to bet that Vagabond price will overtake Cerberus price by a big margin. Vagabond is really no doubt the best/useful HAC in game.
Yes, for solo work. Not for groups. Focused fire on a vagabond makes it go pop in seconds. Cerberus is much better for groups.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.25 10:20:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 25/08/2006 10:20:16
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yes, for solo work. Not for groups. Focused fire on a vagabond makes it go pop in seconds. Cerberus is much better for groups.
Focus fire, huh? I wished it would go pop in seconds. Oh, we all have our experience and opinions. --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 10:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 25/08/2006 10:20:16
Originally by: Jim McGregor Yes, for solo work. Not for groups. Focused fire on a vagabond makes it go pop in seconds. Cerberus is much better for groups.
Focus fire, huh? I wished it would go pop in seconds. Oh, we all have our experience and opinions.
Yeah. Its hard to discuss these things from a game balance point of view when each of us have millions of skillpoints invested in the hac of our choice. In the end I guess its up to Tux, but I feel that he should really check the forums for any threads where people whine about amarr or minmatar ships being overpowered.
I just wish that I would see some "typhoon is overpowered" or "tempest is overpowered" or "zealot","armageddon" is overpowered threads...but there are none. Very strange.
My feelings is that minmatar/amarr has gotten so used to always being second best that they are just accepting it. Or switched to another race.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
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