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Should a small ship stop a big ship dead in its tracks?

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Mitsumi Takahashi Caldari Naasirka	Posted - 2006.08.25 14:59:00 - [1] Disclaimer: this is not a whine. Hold the cheese, please. For short attention spans: Should small ships be able to stop large ships by putting themselves in their path? The full story: The other day, I was minding my own business, which mostly consists of moving various trade goods in a freighter. On this particular day, I was moving "stuff" from Oursulaert to Jita. Mostly on autopilot, of course. The movements of a freighter are not particularly exciting. So, one eye on the TV, I had at first failed to notice that my ship's progress had eventually stopped. Putting both eyes firmly on my computer screen, I frowned. Why wasn't my ship moving? It was sitting a few kilometers off a gate, autopilot was on, but no movement was registering. Strange. And then I take a closer look: my ship had bumped into an unmoving assault frigate, and that stopped its progress. Aha! So, doing the only sensible thing to do, I cancel autopilot and try to maneuver around it. But, lo and behold! The AF moves and blocks my path again, preventing any movement towards my destination. Perplexed, I then notice that my evemail icon is flashing. A message from the AF pilot. My expression turning incredulous, I read the message that is revealed to me: "5m or I follow you into the next system" Understanding dawns. This is an entrepreneurial pilot trying an unconventional annoyance tactic to extort money from me. The pilot probably tired a convo, but any sensible freighter pilot knows that turning auto-reject on is essential for uninterrupted flow of business (and avoiding ransom demands due to gang spams). A short conversation ensues, in which various polite threats are exchanged, and my autopilot gets eventually turned back on while I go watch some more TV. No money exchange hands, of course. Much later, I come back to note, with some satisfaction, that my freighter reached its destination unharmed, albeit a bit late. Now, I'm not questioning the pilot's tactics at all. To each his own method of business and income, that is what Eve is all about. What I am questioning is if a small ship should be able to completely stop a large ship, like a freighter, by simply putting itself in its path? Is this a problem that needs fixing? -
Deja Thoris Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:03:00 - [2] Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi Is this a problem that needs fixing? No.
LoxyRider Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:04:00 - [3] I think that actually counts as an exploit if I remember another incident correctly.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:08:00 - [4] Originally by: LoxyRider I think that actually counts as an exploit if I remember another incident correctly. Harrassment. Petition it. An accidental bump or an inty pilot sideswiping you because he feels like it then warping off is one thing, systematic abuse of this is harrassment.
Jobie Thickburger Gallente Miner Guide to the Galaxy	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:09:00 - [5] I know where your coming from, And personally, I'd love to see better ramming effects in Eve. You would think, that a Small ship like that would be pushed around the larger ship, rather than force it to be stoped. Mabey it'll be fixed later, But I feel bad for all those freighter pilots out there who will have to put up with this kinda action since you've made it public CEO - MGTTG
D'onryu Shoqui Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:10:00 - [6] Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 25/08/2006 15:11:28 Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 25/08/2006 15:11:10 you should have petioned him for that and captured it with fraps. some guys were going around blocking freighters with cargo cans and demanding money a few months back. they posted there story on the forums and said a GM moved there ships into various 0.0 systems as punishment. imo big ships should just knock small ones out the way. its not like in real life some huge container ship is going to bump into a tiny ship and stop, i bet the captain wouldnt even notice a bump
Major Stormer Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:12:00 - [7] i would like see see ship impact have a larger part in the game overall. personally, my battleship, should something stop it thats tiny e.g. some random bantom, the bantum should get out of the wayor be crushed. now smaller ships are much faster then the larger ones, so if their not moving and im at full speed towards a gate, i expect it to go crunch much as a fly does against a car windscreen. such things should be rare, and might even encourage people not going afk at gates. would be nice to ram smash people who eject crap from their bay in order to stop you warping etc as well. -------------------------- 0.01 ISK to the first mod that writes in my sig! :D Pay cash value in cookies plskthx - Immy Oh man thats gonna be a lot of cookies.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:13:00 - [8] I think ship mass should actually mean something... CCP needs to change the behavior of ship classes in relation to one another, they all act the same atm, and it's irritating to say the least... A freighter should not swing about like it does when stuck on a frig, nor should a BS for that matter... It should have rammed that AF into the gate... What he was doing is harassment... Next time petition. ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Kasak Black 133rd Ghost Wing R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:13:00 - [9] If EVE was real, and I was the pilot of the freighter and some fool of a AF/Frigate pilot was blocking me, I would turn him into a bug splat on the front of my ship. Like if a captain of some massive cruise ship was held up by three guys in a rubber dingy demanding 5million. The captain would just suck them under and kill them. Then again probally not, but thats why I'm not a captain of a big ship...
Toolivus	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:14:00 - [10] Got mates in kestrels?
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Deja Thoris Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi Is this a problem that needs fixing? No. QFT ----------------------------------------
DubanFP Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:24:00 - [12] yeah actually it is considered an Exploit by CCP, so petition it. They'll probebly tell him it's against the Eula, and he'll either stop or get banned.
Zodiaq Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:27:00 - [13] Other example of 'small stoping big' is this: -I was in Iteron M3, after going through gate there were two PvP... just two frigs, I had medium shield extender and wcs, ok - gonna try to warp out... so I choose my bm and started to warp - they locked on me and tried to warp scramble, no success... but as u know iteron goes into warp for a long time, 8seconds or so... before I warped out one in atron run at my ship, and Iteron changed his course suddenly, like it hit gate on max speed... of course in next few seconds I wasn't able to warp do they could destroy my ship... so Atron, smallest frig stoped my Iteron from warping by raming me... geee, where is logic here?? Zodiaq
Adoro Reunited	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:30:00 - [14] Hm so many kiddies in game...what do stuff like this? Really annoying to read people are doing this :( Pettion and get the little boy banned...let him go back to wow -------- Zapatero: Quote: So what happens when they 'cure' the geek gene as well? Poof <scuse the pun> There goes EVE.
Zirator Times of Ancar R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:38:00 - [15] There is a way to counter it, it's called F12 petition ownage.
Mitsumi Takahashi Caldari Naasirka	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:41:00 - [16] Thanks for the replies! Deja Thoris and Malicious Wraith seem to think that the current situation is not a problem. Can you please expand your concise comments? -
Twilight Moon Minmatar eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Zodiaq Other example of 'small stoping big' is this: -I was in Iteron M3, after going through gate there were two PvP... just two frigs, I had medium shield extender and wcs, ok - gonna try to warp out... so I choose my bm and started to warp - they locked on me and tried to warp scramble, no success... but as u know iteron goes into warp for a long time, 8seconds or so... before I warped out one in atron run at my ship, and Iteron changed his course suddenly, like it hit gate on max speed... of course in next few seconds I wasn't able to warp do they could destroy my ship... so Atron, smallest frig stoped my Iteron from warping by raming me... geee, where is logic here?? Oh no, you're allowed to do that. An Itty 3 isnt exactly very big. ...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
blkmajik ZiTek	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:47:00 - [18] if frigs couldnt disrupt the movement of larger ships, then sniper BS's that are alligned to warp as soon as anyone gets within 150km couldnt be bumped and scrammed by a fast covert ops frig. They would have 0 risk and be able to gank unchallenged. Punish the exploiters, dont break the game. if you want it to be realistic, than make ramming cause damange and be considered an offensive action, punishable by concord agro ;)
Deja Thoris Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi Thanks for the replies! Deja Thoris and Malicious Wraith seem to think that the current situation is not a problem. Can you please expand your concise comments? What is an exploit? The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. Is it an exploit? Doesn't look like it. Harassment is the blatant abuse heaped upon one player by another above and beyond valid game play interaction. This offense often includes the use of derogatory, hateful, slanderous or sexual comments as well as insults that pertain to religion, gender, nationality or ethnicity. CCP has a zero tolerance for such behavior, as stated in our Terms of Service and violators may be immediately banned. Players should note that EVE emphasizes player interaction, including non-consensual combat between players. Being attacked by another player, within the parameters of normal gameplay, is not harassment. Is it harassment? Doesn't look like it. In fact, he specifically did it with a profit motive (5mill ISK "ransom") So in closing, perhaps they could buff the physics so you would push him out of the way with your superior size. People that say hit the petition button are idiots, remember their knee jerk reaction when you wait a month for re-imbursement of your mission ships!
Skooney Gallente Universal Agencies Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.25 15:54:00 - [20] Originally by: Deja Thoris Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi Is this a problem that needs fixing? No. I respectfully dis-agree, it needs to be fixed. A 1,600,000 kg Shuttle should not be able to stop a 1,175,000,000 kg Freighter - Simple physics should apply here. IMHO. That is like parking a motorcycle infront of a train. Universal Agencies www.rlelectric.ca/ua.htm
Gustovness Caldari Broken Cannon	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:02:00 - [21] It seems that some people want bumping to ethier cause damage or inflict a Concord agro... I'd have to agree that the bigger mass should remain on course and the smaller one should be the one that has to alter their course (Or however the complex formulas of physics should dictate it). But damage and/or CONCORD? Can we say kamakazie frigs? What do you guys think of maybe implementing and aggression countdown instead? Kinda like looting someone else's can and only allowing them or their gang to shot you? (Do those kinds of killrights extend to corpmates as well?)
Nir	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:04:00 - [22] There is nothing wrong with it, thats how its always been. If you go back 300 years in history you find Brigantines with swivel guns (anti personel cannons that were essentially giant shotguns) designed mainly for privateering and to provide support to larger ships by quickly engaging a target up close and killing its crew. Frigates and Interceptors are the Brigantines of EVE
Horace Harkness	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:05:00 - [23] Agreed, it is not an exploit they just need to improve the physics. Making it agro is tougher, happens all the time at busy stations.
Marine HK4861 Caldari Seoltachd	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Nir Frigates and Interceptors are the Brigantines of EVE Yes, but I don't think a Brigatine ever tried to stop a larger ship by dropping anchor in front of it.
Regat Kozovv Caldari Orion's Forge	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:13:00 - [25] While I certainly feel for the freighter pilot, there's a small problem with the issue of "ramming". Quite simply, if one were to ram another ship in high sec, deal damage to it, and not be flagged, then Jita will quickly become a graveyard. However, should you accidentally bump someone in high sec (and it happens while undocking from a busy station all of the time) then many people would accidentally get flagged, at which point Concord comes a'knocking. Perhaps a better way would be to "push" ships of lesser mass out of the way. In this instance, your freighter could simply knock the AF into the gate, or out of it's way completely. The AF would bounce off the freighter, instead of the freighter being moved by the tiny AF.
blkmajik ZiTek	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:16:00 - [26] Originally by: Gustovness It seems that some people want bumping to ethier cause damage or inflict a Concord agro... I was joking about the concord part. I'll use <sarcasm> tags from now on. Think of it this way: If you go down a busy road in your city, and park your car to block all the traffic lanes, demanding payment for you to move, what will happen? The police will come and haul you off. Isnt that what Concord is suposed to do? So how about this for a solution: If you are in concord space and within 300km from a gate for more than 5 minutes, you automatically warp 1000km in a random direction and get fined, say 50,000 isk. Maybe even take a minor security status hit.
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:23:00 - [27] The last time CCP tried to do Physics, we had literally seconds of fun playing snooker at gates and stations, only unfortunately you couldn't hit low and screw back into the jump gate. In fact the CCP programmers have a history of implementing bizarre physics models. Anyone remember the _Sticky_Toffee_Pudding () module?
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Deja Thoris Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi Thanks for the replies! Deja Thoris and Malicious Wraith seem to think that the current situation is not a problem. Can you please expand your concise comments? What is an exploit? The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. Is it an exploit? Doesn't look like it. Harassment is the blatant abuse heaped upon one player by another above and beyond valid game play interaction. This offense often includes the use of derogatory, hateful, slanderous or sexual comments as well as insults that pertain to religion, gender, nationality or ethnicity. CCP has a zero tolerance for such behavior, as stated in our Terms of Service and violators may be immediately banned. Players should note that EVE emphasizes player interaction, including non-consensual combat between players. Being attacked by another player, within the parameters of normal gameplay, is not harassment. Is it harassment? Doesn't look like it. In fact, he specifically did it with a profit motive (5mill ISK "ransom") So in closing, perhaps they could buff the physics so you would push him out of the way with your superior size. People that say hit the petition button are idiots, remember their knee jerk reaction when you wait a month for re-imbursement of your mission ships! Maybe if CCP got things right the first time, they would not be in this petition mess... Figures you'd be here defending the harassment tactic... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Lienzo Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:30:00 - [29] There is some preservation of momentum. The effect is in game technically, it is just highly throttled for some reason. My guess is the differences in the afterburner mods aren't as precise as the numbers suggest. Also, the relationship between mass and turning speed must be governed by a separate, hidden variable. Velocity is taken more into account regarding turning speed than is mass as you can see with the corpmate webbing a freighter exploit. (A necessary exploit given the prevalence of noob corp freighters.) Republic Fleet phases out obsolete Vigils.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Kasak Black If EVE was real, and I was the pilot of the freighter and some fool of a AF/Frigate pilot was blocking me, I would turn him into a bug splat on the front of my ship. Actually, an inty ramming you at 4km/s would turn BOTH ships into expanding balls of fire. A frigate is still bigger than an aircraft carrier of today. The not overly large size differential and the potential energy of the impacts is going to wreck the bigger ships too. Ramming in Eve isn't a "problem", it's a tactic. People being really lame is griefing and petitionable. (And yes, Deja, the ruling on this is that it is harrassment because there is no good response) I fail to see the issue. Marine HK4861? Pulling an ship's anchor was a tactic.. blkmajik, that is a radical gameplay change which will seriously inhibit PvP and you know it. BurnHard, hey, that can still happen. It's just rare as. I do remember knocking an ogre drone 4 AU back then though.

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