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Mitsumi Takahashi
Caldari
Naasirka
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Posted - 2006.08.25 14:59:00 -
[1]
Disclaimer: this is not a whine. Hold the cheese, please. 
For short attention spans: Should small ships be able to stop large ships by putting themselves in their path?
The full story:
The other day, I was minding my own business, which mostly consists of moving various trade goods in a freighter.
On this particular day, I was moving "stuff" from Oursulaert to Jita. Mostly on autopilot, of course. The movements of a freighter are not particularly exciting.
So, one eye on the TV, I had at first failed to notice that my ship's progress had eventually stopped. Putting both eyes firmly on my computer screen, I frowned. Why wasn't my ship moving?
It was sitting a few kilometers off a gate, autopilot was on, but no movement was registering. Strange.
And then I take a closer look: my ship had bumped into an unmoving assault frigate, and that stopped its progress. Aha! So, doing the only sensible thing to do, I cancel autopilot and try to maneuver around it.
But, lo and behold! The AF moves and blocks my path again, preventing any movement towards my destination.
Perplexed, I then notice that my evemail icon is flashing. A message from the AF pilot. My expression turning incredulous, I read the message that is revealed to me:
"5m or I follow you into the next system"
Understanding dawns. This is an entrepreneurial pilot trying an unconventional annoyance tactic to extort money from me. The pilot probably tired a convo, but any sensible freighter pilot knows that turning auto-reject on is essential for uninterrupted flow of business (and avoiding ransom demands due to gang spams).
A short conversation ensues, in which various polite threats are exchanged, and my autopilot gets eventually turned back on while I go watch some more TV. No money exchange hands, of course.
Much later, I come back to note, with some satisfaction, that my freighter reached its destination unharmed, albeit a bit late.
Now, I'm not questioning the pilot's tactics at all. To each his own method of business and income, that is what Eve is all about.
What I am questioning is if a small ship should be able to completely stop a large ship, like a freighter, by simply putting itself in its path?
Is this a problem that needs fixing?
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Deja Thoris
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:03:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi
Is this a problem that needs fixing?
No.
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LoxyRider
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:04:00 -
[3]
I think that actually counts as an exploit if I remember another incident correctly.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:08:00 -
[4]
Originally by: LoxyRider
I think that actually counts as an exploit if I remember another incident correctly.
Harrassment. Petition it.
An accidental bump or an inty pilot sideswiping you because he feels like it then warping off is one thing, systematic abuse of this is harrassment.
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Jobie Thickburger
Gallente
Miner Guide to the Galaxy
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:09:00 -
[5]
I know where your coming from, And personally, I'd love to see better ramming effects in Eve.
You would think, that a Small ship like that would be pushed around the larger ship, rather than force it to be stoped.
Mabey it'll be fixed later, But I feel bad for all those freighter pilots out there who will have to put up with this kinda action since you've made it public 
CEO - MGTTG
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D'onryu Shoqui
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:10:00 -
[6]
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 25/08/2006 15:11:28
Edited by: D''onryu Shoqui on 25/08/2006 15:11:10
you should have petioned him for that and captured it with fraps.
some guys were going around blocking freighters with cargo cans and demanding money a few months back. they posted there story on the forums and said a GM moved there ships into various 0.0 systems as punishment.
imo big ships should just knock small ones out the way. its not like in real life some huge container ship is going to bump into a tiny ship and stop, i bet the captain wouldnt even notice a bump
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Major Stormer
Caldari
Demon Womb
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:12:00 -
[7]
i would like see see ship impact have a larger part in the game overall. personally, my battleship, should something stop it thats tiny e.g. some random bantom, the bantum should get out of the wayor be crushed. now smaller ships are much faster then the larger ones, so if their not moving and im at full speed towards a gate, i expect it to go crunch much as a fly does against a car windscreen.
such things should be rare, and might even encourage people not going afk at gates. would be nice to ram smash people who eject crap from their bay in order to stop you warping etc as well.
--------------------------
0.01 ISK to the first mod that writes in my sig! :D
Pay cash value in cookies plskthx - Immy
Oh man thats gonna be a lot of cookies. |
Bhaal
Minmatar
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:13:00 -
[8]
I think ship mass should actually mean something... CCP needs to change the behavior of ship classes in relation to one another, they all act the same atm, and it's irritating to say the least...
A freighter should not swing about like it does when stuck on a frig, nor should a BS for that matter... It should have rammed that AF into the gate...
What he was doing is harassment...
Next time petition.
------------------------------------------------
Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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Kasak Black
133rd Ghost Wing
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:13:00 -
[9]
If EVE was real, and I was the pilot of the freighter and some fool of a AF/Frigate pilot was blocking me, I would turn him into a bug splat on the front of my ship.
Like if a captain of some massive cruise ship was held up by three guys in a rubber dingy demanding 5million. The captain would just suck them under and kill them. Then again probally not, but thats why I'm not a captain of a big ship...
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Toolivus
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:14:00 -
[10]
Got mates in kestrels?
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Malicious Wraith
The Dark Side of the Moon
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi
Is this a problem that needs fixing?
No.
QFT
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DubanFP
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:24:00 -
[12]
yeah actually it is considered an Exploit by CCP, so petition it. They'll probebly tell him it's against the Eula, and he'll either stop or get banned.
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Zodiaq
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:27:00 -
[13]
Other example of 'small stoping big' is this:
-I was in Iteron M3, after going through gate there were two PvP... just two frigs, I had medium shield extender and wcs, ok - gonna try to warp out... so I choose my bm and started to warp - they locked on me and tried to warp scramble, no success... but as u know iteron goes into warp for a long time, 8seconds or so... before I warped out one in atron run at my ship, and Iteron changed his course suddenly, like it hit gate on max speed... of course in next few seconds I wasn't able to warp do they could destroy my ship... so Atron, smallest frig stoped my Iteron from warping by raming me... geee, where is logic here??
Zodiaq |
Adoro
Reunited
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:30:00 -
[14]
Hm so many kiddies in game...what do stuff like this? Really annoying to read people are doing this :(
Pettion and get the little boy banned...let him go back to wow
--------
Zapatero:
Quote:
So what happens when they 'cure' the geek gene as well? Poof <scuse the pun> There goes EVE.
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Zirator
Times of Ancar
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:38:00 -
[15]
There is a way to counter it, it's called F12 petition ownage. 
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Mitsumi Takahashi
Caldari
Naasirka
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:41:00 -
[16]
Thanks for the replies! 
Deja Thoris and Malicious Wraith seem to think that the current situation is not a problem. Can you please expand your concise comments?
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Twilight Moon
Minmatar
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Zodiaq
Other example of 'small stoping big' is this:
-I was in Iteron M3, after going through gate there were two PvP... just two frigs, I had medium shield extender and wcs, ok - gonna try to warp out... so I choose my bm and started to warp - they locked on me and tried to warp scramble, no success... but as u know iteron goes into warp for a long time, 8seconds or so... before I warped out one in atron run at my ship, and Iteron changed his course suddenly, like it hit gate on max speed... of course in next few seconds I wasn't able to warp do they could destroy my ship... so Atron, smallest frig stoped my Iteron from warping by raming me... geee, where is logic here??
Oh no, you're allowed to do that. An Itty 3 isnt exactly very big.
...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
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blkmajik
ZiTek
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:47:00 -
[18]
if frigs couldnt disrupt the movement of larger ships, then sniper BS's that are alligned to warp as soon as anyone gets within 150km couldnt be bumped and scrammed by a fast covert ops frig. They would have 0 risk and be able to gank unchallenged. Punish the exploiters, dont break the game.
if you want it to be realistic, than make ramming cause damange and be considered an offensive action, punishable by concord agro ;)
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Deja Thoris
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi
Thanks for the replies!
Deja Thoris and Malicious Wraith seem to think that the current situation is not a problem. Can you please expand your concise comments?
What is an exploit?
The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit.
Is it an exploit? Doesn't look like it.
Harassment is the blatant abuse heaped upon one player by another above and beyond valid game play interaction. This offense often includes the use of derogatory, hateful, slanderous or sexual comments as well as insults that pertain to religion, gender, nationality or ethnicity. CCP has a zero tolerance for such behavior, as stated in our Terms of Service and violators may be immediately banned.
Players should note that EVE emphasizes player interaction, including non-consensual combat between players. Being attacked by another player, within the parameters of normal gameplay, is not harassment.
Is it harassment? Doesn't look like it. In fact, he specifically did it with a profit motive (5mill ISK "ransom")
So in closing, perhaps they could buff the physics so you would push him out of the way with your superior size.
People that say hit the petition button are idiots, remember their knee jerk reaction when you wait a month for re-imbursement of your mission ships!
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Skooney
Gallente
Universal Agencies
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.08.25 15:54:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi
Is this a problem that needs fixing?
No.
I respectfully dis-agree, it needs to be fixed.
A 1,600,000 kg Shuttle should not be able to stop a 1,175,000,000 kg Freighter - Simple physics should apply here. IMHO.
That is like parking a motorcycle infront of a train.
Universal Agencies
www.rlelectric.ca/ua.htm
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Gustovness
Caldari
Broken Cannon
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:02:00 -
[21]
It seems that some people want bumping to ethier cause damage or inflict a Concord agro...
I'd have to agree that the bigger mass should remain on course and the smaller one should be the one that has to alter their course (Or however the complex formulas of physics should dictate it). But damage and/or CONCORD? Can we say kamakazie frigs? 
What do you guys think of maybe implementing and aggression countdown instead? Kinda like looting someone else's can and only allowing them or their gang to shot you? (Do those kinds of killrights extend to corpmates as well?)
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Nir
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:04:00 -
[22]
There is nothing wrong with it, thats how its always been.
If you go back 300 years in history you find Brigantines with swivel guns (anti personel cannons that were essentially giant shotguns) designed mainly for privateering and to provide support to larger ships by quickly engaging a target up close and killing its crew.
Frigates and Interceptors are the Brigantines of EVE 
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Horace Harkness
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:05:00 -
[23]
Agreed, it is not an exploit they just need to improve the physics.
Making it agro is tougher, happens all the time at busy stations.
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Marine HK4861
Caldari
Seoltachd
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:09:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Nir
Frigates and Interceptors are the Brigantines of EVE
Yes, but I don't think a Brigatine ever tried to stop a larger ship by dropping anchor in front of it.
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Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Orion's Forge
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:13:00 -
[25]
While I certainly feel for the freighter pilot, there's a small problem with the issue of "ramming". Quite simply, if one were to ram another ship in high sec, deal damage to it, and not be flagged, then Jita will quickly become a graveyard.
However, should you accidentally bump someone in high sec (and it happens while undocking from a busy station all of the time) then many people would accidentally get flagged, at which point Concord comes a'knocking.
Perhaps a better way would be to "push" ships of lesser mass out of the way. In this instance, your freighter could simply knock the AF into the gate, or out of it's way completely. The AF would bounce off the freighter, instead of the freighter being moved by the tiny AF.
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blkmajik
ZiTek
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:16:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Gustovness
It seems that some people want bumping to ethier cause damage or inflict a Concord agro...
I was joking about the concord part. I'll use <sarcasm> tags from now on.
Think of it this way: If you go down a busy road in your city, and park your car to block all the traffic lanes, demanding payment for you to move, what will happen? The police will come and haul you off. Isnt that what Concord is suposed to do?
So how about this for a solution: If you are in concord space and within 300km from a gate for more than 5 minutes, you automatically warp 1000km in a random direction and get fined, say 50,000 isk. Maybe even take a minor security status hit.
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BurnHard
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:23:00 -
[27]
The last time CCP tried to do Physics, we had literally seconds of fun playing snooker at gates and stations, only unfortunately you couldn't hit low and screw back into the jump gate. In fact the CCP programmers have a history of implementing bizarre physics models. Anyone remember the _Sticky_Toffee_Pudding () module?
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Bhaal
Minmatar
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi
Thanks for the replies!
Deja Thoris and Malicious Wraith seem to think that the current situation is not a problem. Can you please expand your concise comments?
What is an exploit?
The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit.
Is it an exploit? Doesn't look like it.
Harassment is the blatant abuse heaped upon one player by another above and beyond valid game play interaction. This offense often includes the use of derogatory, hateful, slanderous or sexual comments as well as insults that pertain to religion, gender, nationality or ethnicity. CCP has a zero tolerance for such behavior, as stated in our Terms of Service and violators may be immediately banned.
Players should note that EVE emphasizes player interaction, including non-consensual combat between players. Being attacked by another player, within the parameters of normal gameplay, is not harassment.
Is it harassment? Doesn't look like it. In fact, he specifically did it with a profit motive (5mill ISK "ransom")
So in closing, perhaps they could buff the physics so you would push him out of the way with your superior size.
People that say hit the petition button are idiots, remember their knee jerk reaction when you wait a month for re-imbursement of your mission ships!
Maybe if CCP got things right the first time, they would not be in this petition mess...
Figures you'd be here defending the harassment tactic... 
------------------------------------------------
Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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Lienzo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:30:00 -
[29]
There is some preservation of momentum. The effect is in game technically, it is just highly throttled for some reason.
My guess is the differences in the afterburner mods aren't as precise as the numbers suggest.
Also, the relationship between mass and turning speed must be governed by a separate, hidden variable. Velocity is taken more into account regarding turning speed than is mass as you can see with the corpmate webbing a freighter exploit. (A necessary exploit given the prevalence of noob corp freighters.)
Republic Fleet phases out obsolete Vigils.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:39:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kasak Black
If EVE was real, and I was the pilot of the freighter and some fool of a AF/Frigate pilot was blocking me, I would turn him into a bug splat on the front of my ship.
Actually, an inty ramming you at 4km/s would turn BOTH ships into expanding balls of fire. A frigate is still bigger than an aircraft carrier of today. The not overly large size differential and the potential energy of the impacts is going to wreck the bigger ships too.
Ramming in Eve isn't a "problem", it's a tactic. People being really lame is griefing and petitionable. (And yes, Deja, the ruling on this is that it is harrassment because there is no good response) I fail to see the issue.
Marine HK4861? Pulling an ship's anchor was a tactic..
blkmajik, that is a radical gameplay change which will seriously inhibit PvP and you know it.
BurnHard, hey, that can still happen. It's just rare as. I do remember knocking an ogre drone 4 AU back then though.
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Gretchen Dawntreader
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:40:00 -
[31]
yes let physics rule. You could even factor in velocity so while a high speed interceptor could ram out of alignment a larger ship due to speed offsetting a smaller mass (in legitimate combat tactic) you wouldn't be able to maneuver your little frig to get in the way again and again because that frig is moving slowly. And undocking into a crowd, the idling ships are not moving at all, so pushing your way through would be easy.
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Magnum III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:41:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Magnum III on 25/08/2006 16:43:16
Originally by: Kasak Black
The captain would just suck them under and kill them. Then again probally not, but thats why I'm not a captain of a big ship...
lol, dude that was funny. :)
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Gustovness
Caldari
Broken Cannon
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:53:00 -
[33]
Originally by: blkmajik
I was joking about the concord part. I'll use <sarcasm> tags from now on.
Think of it this way: If you go down a busy road in your city, and park your car to block all the traffic lanes, demanding payment for you to move, what will happen? The police will come and haul you off. Isnt that what Concord is suposed to do?
So how about this for a solution: If you are in concord space and within 300km from a gate for more than 5 minutes, you automatically warp 1000km in a random direction and get fined, say 50,000 isk. Maybe even take a minor security status hit.[/quote
I didn't pick up on the sarcasm cause I thought it was actually a good point to bring up CONCORD's involvment into the matter. The question is how... I like your idea of warping off when you hang out at a gate for too long, but I'm not too fond about the fine. Back in my days of NPC courrier running I'd spend most of my play time afk with autopilot on and spend a decent ammount of time hanging out at the gate of destination untill I got back.
I propose to nominate blkmajik's resolution of warping off a gate @ 1000km in 0.5 and above space with the ammendment of not having to pay a fine for it, nor take a sec status hit.
All in favor say YARR!!! lol
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THX 1138
Minmatar
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:54:00 -
[34]
Sometimes you wish one simple line of code would solve it all:
E=MC^2
-*-*-*-*-
Individuality is underrated |
Smagd
Encina Technologies
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2006.08.25 16:55:00 -
[35]
Gunning a battleship for more than 2000 m/s and then into another battleship to bump it away works, so why can't a much heavier ship - albeit at a much slower speed - bump a frig away?
Something fishy must be going on here with the game mechanics.
--
When I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. |
Gustovness
Caldari
Broken Cannon
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Posted - 2006.08.25 17:14:00 -
[36]
momentum = mass * velocity
That means that if we had a small ship and a big ship, and the small ship had HALF the mass of the bigger ship, yet, was going say THREE TIMES as fast as the bigger ship, it would actually knock the bigger ship off course.
This of course isn't the case in our AF vs. Freighter situation though... but it certainly is something to think about in maybe ramming into indys with AF's/Intys.
I'm at work so I can't crunch the numbers atm, but maybe someone can run the tests for the rest of us? See how fast a given indy can go and multiply that times its mass. The number you get will be the indy's momentum. (You can get these numbers from "show info", you don't gotta go out and fly ur indy of course...)
THEN, see how fast your inty can go with MWD/AB and multiply that times your inty's mass. I'm interested to see which of the two numbers would be greater...
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Gabriel Karade
Office linebackers
Blood of the Innocents
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Posted - 2006.08.25 17:15:00 -
[37]
They mentioned in an issue of E-ON that the collision physics 'may' be looked into as it's immersion breaking at the moment.
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- Office Linebacker -
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Bhaal
Minmatar
M. Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.25 17:17:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
They mentioned in an issue of E-ON that the collision physics 'may' be looked into as it's immersion breaking at the moment.
We can only hope...
The ships just look goofy the way they move, especially when they dance around & ****... Total immersion buster...
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Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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Cahorn Frebet
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Posted - 2006.08.25 17:20:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Harassment is the blatant abuse heaped upon one player by another above and beyond valid game play interaction. This offense often includes the use of derogatory, hateful, slanderous or sexual comments as well as insults that pertain to religion, gender, nationality or ethnicity. CCP has a zero tolerance for such behavior, as stated in our Terms of Service and violators may be immediately banned.
Players should note that EVE emphasizes player interaction, including non-consensual combat between players. Being attacked by another player, within the parameters of normal gameplay, is not harassment.
Is it harassment? Doesn't look like it. In fact, he specifically did it with a profit motive (5mill ISK "ransom")
The ransomer wasn't saying he was going to attack the other player though, I have the impression he was just going to be a jerk and stop him from going anywhere by blocking the path. Why is that not harassment since you have no recourse against him but he's hampering your play? If the ransomer was going to attack, then yeah nothing wrong with that.
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Torquemanda Corteaz
Gallente
Infinite Improbability Inc
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.25 17:27:00 -
[40]
i agree that the smaller ship should automatically get bumped out of the way, and the larger ship (bs and capital) should remain unmoved. cruiser > bs hmm I dont know, but everything > capital, everything else should get out of the way
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Zeno Kang
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Posted - 2006.08.25 17:28:00 -
[41]
Frigate = Greenpeace ship
Freighter = French Navy
We've all seen what happens when one collides with the other.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.25 18:22:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 25/08/2006 18:22:52
Originally by: Kasak Black
Like if a captain of some massive cruise ship was held up by three guys in a rubber dingy demanding 5million. The captain would just suck them under and kill them. Then again probally not, but thats why I'm not a captain of a big ship...
Well the cruise ship is a bad example, because the captain has to also think of the comfort of his passengers, and drowning people in a rubber dinghy wasn't on the program for Tuesday. They are also ratrher maneuverable for their size, especially the newer ones (azipod thrusters ftw).
But a container ship captain will, in real life, run right over your small pleasure boat if he has to. He really has no choice. Those container ships take several nautical miles to come to a stop from cruising speed, and have a turn radius measured in NM, too. And the law would be on his side. Vessels that have limited maneuvering capability have the right of way over every other vessel on the water.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.25 18:48:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Malicious Wraith
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi
Is this a problem that needs fixing?
No.
QFT
You're still both wrong.
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Usotsuki
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Posted - 2006.08.25 18:49:00 -
[44]
Frigates in Eve are about one tenth the size of a small aircraft carrier on earth.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.08.25 18:52:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Kasak Black
If EVE was real, and I was the pilot of the freighter and some fool of a AF/Frigate pilot was blocking me, I would turn him into a bug splat on the front of my ship.
Actually, an inty ramming you at 4km/s would turn BOTH ships into expanding balls of fire. A frigate is still bigger than an aircraft carrier of today.
A frig is more like the size of a 747. A Megathron is closer to the size of an Aircraft carrier.
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Vulor
Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.25 19:10:00 -
[46]
Originally by: blkmajik
So how about this for a solution: If you are in concord space and within 300km from a gate for more than 5 minutes, you automatically warp 1000km in a random direction and get fined, say 50,000 isk. Maybe even take a minor security status hit.
That would be great, especially for hi-sec gatecamp.
600,000 ISK for 1h of gatecamping, plus every 5 minutes you have to warp back to the gate...
www.bydi.org |
Rutoo
Gallente
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.08.25 19:19:00 -
[47]
I have to reply to this This is too funny
And yes My post is gonna be a flame.
Mainly directly at the Petition it it's Harrasement
FFS This in no way harrasement and should not even be though about petitioned
The Petition System is already being over abused, and mis treated like a "If i don't get my way CCP will help me"
People need to grow up and suck it up,
I hate hearing about people petiton for everything becuase you know what? In the End is screws out the guy who actually needs something done!
And it Frustrates CCP staff becuase they need to get reamed out when this type of thing happens. Over nothing. nothing at all
Blocking someone in space is not a valid petition reason at all, you can you can warp away, shoot him or anything else, it's like the school yard bully, if you ignore him long enough they will go away, you give them attention and they will keep doing it.
Gawd i really hate the noobs on EvE,
Soon Someone will war dec someone and thier will be a harrasement petition out of it,
This is getting out of hand
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My First EvE Video
Club Seals Not Sandwichs |
Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.25 19:33:00 -
[48]
A few pointers:
* Frigates are about the size of a house. A naval aircraft carrier is about the size of an EVE cruiser. A frigate sized (actually, we're talking mass here not size) moving at 4000m/s is a pretty decent bullet, though. It'll deal a lot more kinetic damage than a Siege Mode dual 1000mm railgun, though, that's for sure!
* Harassment is defined as something done to abuse/annoy another player for it's own sake. Cover story is defined as something half-baked to escape punishment.
* Exploit is something done to further oneself's personal power, capital, or other advancement through actions that are against the spirit and/or intention of the rules.
* Competitive play like this is (generally) only allowed where both can compete (ship types not withstanding). Guideline: if you can do something to someone else that put you in distinct advantage over him/her without that person being able to do anything back (had he/she had the right ship and setup) in high-secure, then you're breaking the rules.
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Other than that: Bumping is sometimes needed as a warp-preventative when scramblers do not work - but keep in mind that this is investing a lot more than mere ship fittings, it's actually very very hard work keeping someone bumped!
Lots of hard work > ship fittings - in my opinion.
Dark skies torn apart
Heavens open before me
I, the light of death |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.25 19:35:00 -
[49]
Malthros Zenobia...
Oops, my bad: Cruiser == Aicraft carrier.
Todays and planned CV's are in the 50,000 - 95,000 displancement tonne range - that's 5-9.5 million kg, the same as cruisers. Frigates are more equivalent to the Naval destroyers.
The "size" as such dosn't matter, it's the weight and speed. 1 million kg, 10,000 tonnes, of mass moving at 4km/s will smear any other ship across space.
remember, kinetic energy = +mv¦
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Alessar Kaldorei
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.25 20:00:00 -
[50]
Quote:
What is an exploit?
The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit.
Is it an exploit? Doesn't look like it.
I'm surprised noone pointed this out before.
Read the definition of an exploit. Then think, what is the object of bumping? It is to simulate collisions and avoid ships from plowing straight through eachother. I'm sure everyone has seen, while exiting a busy station, ships going into others before turning and moving away.
So, the object of the game mechanic is to handle situations where ships go too close to one another (or too close to other objects, like warping into an asteroid).
This guy was using that mechanic to get in the way of another player, in a ship class renowned for their lack of movility, and demand payment. How is this not an exploit? He was gaining an unfair advantage, exploting the fact that the other ship was too big and the very mechanic was what was giving him the ability to demand a ransom. The mechanic was not designed to allow this, thus it is clearly an exploit.
Still, I must admit, citing something and then drawing conclusions that hold no correlation with the quote seems like an effective tactic here.
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Symb Everway
Minmatar
TetraMorph Nexus Inc.
The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2006.08.25 20:39:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Rutoo
Blocking someone in space is not a valid petition reason at all, you can you can warp away, shoot him or anything else, it's like the school yard bully, if you ignore him long enough they will go away, you give them attention and they will keep doing it.
You're full of horse ****.
- you can't warp away, because being bumped stops your warp
- you can't shoot someone in high-sec
- "anything else" is not a strategy, it's your pathetic defense for your equally pathetic argument
I think the noob here is the one who doesn't even understand the game mechanics he's commenting on.
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Rutoo
Gallente
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.08.25 21:06:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Symb Everway
You're full of horse ****.
- you can't warp away, because being bumped stops your warp
- you can't shoot someone in high-sec
- "anything else" is not a strategy, it's your pathetic defense for your equally pathetic argument
I think the noob here is the one who doesn't even understand the game mechanics he's commenting on.
Riight, yet i'm a noob okay Mr. No Face
There is tons of ways around this, you want me to name a couple?
1) Instas
2) go Around
3) Warp Away -> Warp Back
4) annoy the **** outta him by having your hauler do 360's and claim your practing for the up coming hauler dance-a-thon
5) simple set autopliot and walk away. Why Are you at your computer if your hauling crap anyway?
6) Realize that your in a empty hauler and simply hoping in a shuttle and buying one 29 jumps away from where your going would be a better idea
7) Pay they guy the toll and move,
8) Pay a Merc Corp to have him Re-Moved
9) Pay Some to have your Stuff Moved
10) Log Off - Log Back on Make a run for the gate
-- And Many More!!
_________________________________________________________
My First EvE Video
Club Seals Not Sandwichs |
Deja Thoris
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.25 21:25:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Bhaal
Maybe if CCP got things right the first time, they would not be in this petition mess...
Figures you'd be here defending the harassment tactic...
Hi Troll!
At least I gave an accurate well thought out answer, which is more than you seem capable of with your 1 line trollfests.
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Deja Thoris
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.25 21:29:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Alessar Kaldorei
Quote:
What is an exploit?
The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit.
Is it an exploit? Doesn't look like it.
I'm surprised noone pointed this out before.
Read the definition of an exploit. Then think, what is the object of bumping? It is to simulate collisions and avoid ships from plowing straight through eachother. I'm sure everyone has seen, while exiting a busy station, ships going into others before turning and moving away.
So, the object of the game mechanic is to handle situations where ships go too close to one another (or too close to other objects, like warping into an asteroid).
This guy was using that mechanic to get in the way of another player, in a ship class renowned for their lack of movility, and demand payment. How is this not an exploit? He was gaining an unfair advantage, exploting the fact that the other ship was too big and the very mechanic was what was giving him the ability to demand a ransom. The mechanic was not designed to allow this, thus it is clearly an exploit.
Still, I must admit, citing something and then drawing conclusions that hold no correlation with the quote seems like an effective tactic here.
I disagree. It's a logic train that derailed before it got out of the station.
People bump others to prevent them from warping all the time in combat. It's perfectly legit.
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Symb Everway
Minmatar
TetraMorph Nexus Inc.
The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2006.08.25 21:58:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Rutoo
Riight, yet i'm a noob okay Mr. No Face
There is tons of ways around this, you want me to name a couple?
1) Instas
Not everyone has instas; nor will they help you if he has them as well, nor will they help you if he's already got you trapped.
Quote:
2) go Around
A frigate will laugh as your lumbering beast slowly spins around, then he'll circle around you and bump you again.
Quote:
3) Warp Away -> Warp Back
What part of "you can't warp" are you missing?
Quote:
4) annoy the **** outta him by having your hauler do 360's and claim your practing for the up coming hauler dance-a-thon
If he's patient enough to sit there and annoy you, he's patient enough to ignore you.
Quote:
5) simple set autopliot and walk away. Why Are you at your computer if your hauling crap anyway?
So the only solution is to wait for him to get bored and leave?
Quote:
6) Realize that your in a empty hauler and simply hoping in a shuttle and buying one 29 jumps away from where your going would be a better idea
??? What if you're, uh, not in an empty hauler?
Quote:
7) Pay they guy the toll and move,
That's only a solution if you accept this as legitimate behavior. What if you give him the money and he decides he doesn't want to leave after all?
Quote:
8) Pay a Merc Corp to have him Re-Moved
All I can say is: LOL!
Quote:
9) Pay Some to have your Stuff Moved
Once again only a solution if you accept this situation as fair.
Quote:
10) Log Off - Log Back on Make a run for the gate
Could work, could fail, but "log off" should not be considered a solution to harrassment.
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Arkanor
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.25 22:18:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Arkanor on 25/08/2006 22:20:53
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Mitsumi Takahashi
Is this a problem that needs fixing?
No.
A ship 1/10000 the size of another ship should make no difference in it's travel vector, for physics sake if nothing else. The "Exploit" mentioned is likely the lack of accurate physics computation present in the game, and implying that the devs mean for ship mass to account for its inertia when colliding with other ships.
However, since the purpose was to generate ISK, it can hardly be called griefing.
Originally by: Ghosthowl
WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face.
Originally by: HippoKing
I just cried, you know that? |
Your Name
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Posted - 2006.08.25 22:32:00 -
[57]
There is a big difference between ramming to block a warp away in combat, and doing it to be a pain in the rear. If you do it in combat, the target has the option of shooting you, doing it in empire is completely different.
How about I dump a few dozen frigs/shuttles at the exit of a station (jita) in such a way that no one can leave it? You want to place bets on how long before CCP has a talk with me? And before anyone suggest people leaving the station to board the ships i left, its kind of difficult to leave a station in a pod without some preplanning, so they would just be leaving a different ship.
I beleive they limited the bumping mechanism because of the issues that used to happen in gang warps. It used to be common for a member or two to end up 100km from the gate due to a bump. Can you picture this tactic. Blob A are all together sitting by a gate, through the proper use of a covops, blob B warps directly into their pack. Half of Blob A suddenly finds itself bumped 100km's from the action.
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Urduar
UrdCorp Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.25 22:37:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kasak Black
Like if a captain of some massive cruise ship was held up by three guys in a rubber dingy demanding 5million. The captain would just suck them under and kill them. Then again probally not, but thats why I'm not a captain of a big ship...
Like this one?
Cruise Ship Attacked By Pirates |
Max Godsnottlingson
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Posted - 2006.08.25 22:44:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Max Godsnottlingson on 25/08/2006 22:45:00
So is using an Intie to stop an Indie from alligning and warping from a gate by ramming it classed as an exploit? Not *****ing (female of the canine specising), but I had this used on me a couple of weeks ago and after reading this thread just want to clarify things in case it happens again
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Your Name
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Posted - 2006.08.25 23:48:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Your Name on 25/08/2006 23:52:12
Max, did you do this in .5+?
I think everyone at one time or another has messed with a passing ship in empire.
Until CCP responds, its not an exploit. The rest of us are just giving opinions.
Its hard to say what CCP will do. When people were complaining about people taking ore/loot from jet cans, CCP's decision was to allow the 'victem' to shoot at the thief.
If this tactic becomes common, where not a single slow ship can travel in empire without being harrased like this, I think CCP will act. For one person (or a small group), they may do nothing.
Picture a fully T2 battleship being held up my a 2 day old account in a shuttle, it cant warp away because it cant align fast enough, it cant shoot without Concord killing it. Sounds like a great tactic to use in a war to lock down sections of the opposing fleet.
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Arroze
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Posted - 2006.08.26 00:06:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Arroze on 26/08/2006 00:06:06
You know... if they *did* put in a fix to push aside or away smaller objects you can forget about collecting jetcans or lootcans... I can just picture ramming a jetcan at 500m/s and watch it go flying in some random direction :) Would be fun once, maybe twice.
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Meuchelmorder
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Posted - 2006.08.26 00:38:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Skraelingz
until i can manually fly my ship and not have to rely on the horky double click or orbit or keep at range functions i shouldnt take damage for the games inability to fly the ship.
Agreed, the fact that one cannot have direct control over his/her navigation is a problem that needs to be fixed before ship collision implementation can occur.
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Aeaus
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.08.26 03:05:00 -
[63]
I think it is clearly exploiting. A frigate with any sense can keep a freighter from warping without any risk to himself.
My Guides |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.26 03:14:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Arkanor
A ship 1/10000 the size of another ship...
Is where you fail. There is only a scale factor of 1/10,000 between a T1 frigate and a Freighter. Given that and the the sizes and velocities in Eve, again, the realistic efect is both ships becoming balls of expanding fire.
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Infinity Ziona
Apostasia
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Posted - 2006.08.26 03:33:00 -
[65]
Ramming a ship to stop it aligning in combat is not an exploit. It shouldnt be possible though since if dont properly it is 100% effective, requires no training, requires no cap or module slots and can be done by an alt which you cant shoot at in most cases.
But currently due to the crappy physics its possible.
Click Me
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Mitsumi Takahashi
Caldari
Naasirka
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Posted - 2006.08.26 03:33:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Mitsumi Takahashi on 26/08/2006 03:33:04
Originally by: Deja Thoris
So in closing, perhaps they could buff the physics so you would push him out of the way with your superior size.
People that say hit the petition button are idiots, remember their knee jerk reaction when you wait a month for re-imbursement of your mission ships!
Ah, I see what you mean. No, I wasn't questioning the pilot's actions, as I mentionned in my post. Nor did I consider it harrassment. Annoying, yes, but it's PvP like everything else.
However, I did find it somewhat ridiculous that my ship would get stopped by a far smaller one.
I would also vote for more realistic physics concerning size differences, inertia and such. Not sure about collision damage, though.
-
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.26 03:53:00 -
[67]
Once more, how is your ship being destroyed by the slightest impact useful when you cannot control ships that precisly? Sigh.
"Ramming a ship to stop it aligning in combat is not an exploit."
Correct. The op's situation is not combat.
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Michiyo Daishi
Royal Knights of Khanid
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Posted - 2006.08.26 04:34:00 -
[68]
*waits for Kali's rumor-mention of ship ramming to fix this*
-
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Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.26 07:00:00 -
[69]
As the frigate pilot did this without any risk of a counteraction for himself, it looks like an exploit. It doesn't matter that the pilot was asking for a ransom. He was using faulty game mechanics in this case, and, as I said, there's no valid tactics to counter his actions. I'd petition it and wait what the devs will say.
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Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.08.26 07:09:00 -
[70]
id like it that mass would mean somehting... a frig SHOULD never be able to bump a ship thats 10x times bigger and has 100x the mass of hes. or matter of fact... stop the ship while moveing infront of it... the frigs would just be pushed away.
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Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2006.08.26 07:10:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Riho on 26/08/2006 07:11:49
EDIT: doublepost 
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Kasak Black
133rd Ghost Wing
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.26 08:03:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Urduar
Originally by: Kasak Black
Like if a captain of some massive cruise ship was held up by three guys in a rubber dingy demanding 5million. The captain would just suck them under and kill them. Then again probally not, but thats why I'm not a captain of a big ship...
Like this one?
Cruise Ship Attacked By Pirates
That is the coolest news story ever, Piracy on the high seas. I would have loved to have been on that cruise liner when the pirates attacked. Would have been a right laugh, anyway, I go off topic once again
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Max Godsnottlingson
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Posted - 2006.08.26 08:06:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Your Name
Edited by: Your Name on 25/08/2006 23:52:12
Max, did you do this in .5+?
No, it happened in low sec as I came out of 0.0, and the people who used it, used it as a well versed tactic. The Intie kept repeatedly ramming me to stop any warp until a BS warped in to pop my hauler.
Personaly, this should be treated as an exploit simply because there is no risk to the ramming ship, and no 'legel' way in game terms to counter it
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Terraform
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.26 15:13:00 -
[74]
hm... i never experienced it in low-sec. But a friend of mine (no names mentioned) was held back the same way as you are in a 0.8 system and he petitioned it, we later found out that the "offender" had been issued a pre-ban warning a week earlier for the same thing and he got banned for doing it the second time. Tough luck
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.26 15:24:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Riho
id like it that mass would mean somehting... a frig SHOULD never be able to bump a ship thats 10x times bigger and has 100x the mass of hes. or matter of fact... stop the ship while moveing infront of it... the frigs would just be pushed away.
No, both ships "would just" explode in balls of flame.
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Neil armstrong
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Posted - 2006.08.26 16:54:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Kasak Black
If EVE was real, and I was the pilot of the freighter and some fool of a AF/Frigate pilot was blocking me, I would turn him into a bug splat on the front of my ship.
Like if a captain of some massive cruise ship was held up by three guys in a rubber dingy demanding 5million. The captain would just suck them under and kill them. Then again probally not, but thats why I'm not a captain of a big ship...
actually the cruise liner captain would just floor the throttle and outrun the bandits in a dingy how do i know?
because it happened not too long ago
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Arkanor
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2006.08.26 17:09:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Arkanor on 26/08/2006 17:09:45
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Arkanor
A ship 1/10000 the size of another ship...
Is where you fail. There is only a scale factor of 1/10,000 between a T1 frigate and a Freighter. Given that and the the sizes and velocities in Eve, again, the realistic efect is both ships becoming balls of expanding fire.
Both ships are shielded, preventing the blast. Fail.
Originally by: Ghosthowl
WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face.
Originally by: HippoKing
I just cried, you know that? |
Ralus
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.08.26 17:22:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Riho
id like it that mass would mean somehting... a frig SHOULD never be able to bump a ship thats 10x times bigger and has 100x the mass of hes. or matter of fact... stop the ship while moveing infront of it... the frigs would just be pushed away.
No, both ships "would just" explode in balls of flame.
aaaahaaa but how much kinetic energy can the shields shift away from the two impacting craft? What if advanced devices increase the van der vaal forces in the amours molecular structure making them ultra hard and the ships would bounce off like snooker balls?
Ultimately itÆs a game, and as you'll have said in many threads applying real life analogies to a game doesn't work.
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Red Ochre
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Posted - 2006.08.26 18:20:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Red Ochre on 26/08/2006 18:22:12
more collision detection! more combat related collision detection, like it was in the old days with missiles, but have it affect all weapons, like in..............REAL LIFE!!!
have that small ship pay a hefty price as it collides at mach 15 with that battleship. cap ships colliding? omg, "sound collision!" and of course take the appropriate damage.
blobs would be a thing of the past, fleets would be spread out as they should be, can we say detonation in the middle of a blob, with all ships taking appropriate splash damage!!!
and what was wrong with friendlies taking splash damage? guess they need to rethink strat eh,? this would really make combat longer, breaking locks by flying behind a ship, running away from a ship and slamming into a larger ship while maneuvering, needs to be implemented and the old ways brought back and improved.
implement it, .......i command you.
i am also a consultant for the military, i dont charge much. call me. |
Lord Sid
Minmatar
Lordless
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Posted - 2006.08.26 20:10:00 -
[80]
I think the real question in this thread is "Should Eve have more realistic physics?"
Like how an object in motion stays in motion. *Cough* AB MWD *Cough*
-=Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds=- |
Nymos
Celtic Anarchy
Black Reign Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.26 20:52:00 -
[81]
Originally by: blkmajik
if you want it to be realistic, than make ramming cause damange and be considered an offensive action, punishable by concord agro ;)
hell yea, concord would perma camp jita 4-4 and kisogo station to pwn everyone undocking and bumping into that blob of ships in front of station 4tw :)
--
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Sarleena
Gallente
BIG
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.08.26 22:07:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Cahorn Frebet
The ransomer wasn't saying he was going to attack the other player though, I have the impression he was just going to be a jerk and stop him from going anywhere by blocking the path. Why is that not harassment since you have no recourse against him but he's hampering your play? If the ransomer was going to attack, then yeah nothing wrong with that.
So how is this any different then sitting on the guy with a warp scrambler and 3-4 90% webs, refusing to let him go unless he pays you, but not threatening to blow him up? And he had several perfectly simple recourses, pay the guy, or go AFK with autopilot on, and outwait him. Just because he didn't want to take those options doesn't mean they didn't exist.
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, champagne in one hand, strawberries in the oth |
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