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A Brr
Gallente
Tech-5-Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.27 06:44:00 -
[121]
One more comment:
WTB GIST-X Type X-Large Shieldbooster @ 5 Mio ISK
You don't want to sell at this price? ...
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The greatest crap CCP designed into EVE: Next generation manufacturing. |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.27 07:22:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/08/2006 07:25:31
 Originally by: vyperpit
ok u say buy best named if u cant offord t2, buy second best named if u cant offord best named ect
this is true and perfect yet there is something fully wrong with it. the specilation skill only effects T2 weapons! T2 ammo can only fit into T2 guns!!!
T2 ammos should have been T1 ammos + something special. Plus they should have been made to fit the best named weapon. I totally agree with you about some T2 problems because as it stands in some situations, EvE needs T2s to win.
The concept of faction > T2/best named > T1 is totally borked at the moment. If only CCP would wake up and fix some parts to make the game better. The day when HACs become common like T1s, EvE will die because it will only cater elitists. Currently, HACs are available but pricey so not many are mushrooming in PvP and players are still flying sub-T2 ships. Quite nice to see Rifters killing Interceptors at the moment but I fear these days are short. Hard fix if you ask me because majority of EvE community are DPS obsessive.
That is why I think EvE is balanced between skill levels and ISKs.
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In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
TheKiller8
Caldari
S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.08.27 09:35:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Ozmodan
The really sad thing is, they could have fixed it so easily by just making every bpo a bpc with a limited number of runs. Personally I think ccp should just immediately implement this with the next patch. Problem solved. The only people crying would be the very few that actually have a t2 bpo.
That way the bpc's can be constantly seeded in the marketplace and CCP can fix any persieved loss of a particular bpc by increasing it's distribution in the lottery.
Aye and they should do it unannounced to extra kick those damn T2 owners in the teeth. Perhaps with some kind of hilarious animation of Oveur bursting out of their screen going "SURPRISE*****FACE!!
 "
That'd be fun
CLICK ME! CLICK ME! CLICK ME! CLICK ME! |
Daddy's Princess
A.W.M
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.08.27 10:12:00 -
[124]
 It's real easy to spot someone that has never tried t2 production or even looked into it a bit further beyond "OMG, I must have cheap ships"
FACT: Only a handful a BPOs present a "super happy fun adventure" where you fart isk on demand. I would estimate 90% of the t2 market is down the toilet where you're in competition non stop.
Also, someone metioned it before and I can't be bothered going back to find it... Just buy a damn BPO and be done with it like the rest of the BPO owners. You are seriously hallucinating if you believe big time t2 sellers got their BPOs in the lottery. They invested, and people that won them in the lottery are probably back to where they were before it. But of course, I bet you will choose to ignore this.
Also, I would like to take this opportunity to make a demand for easily available BPOs for all Domination and Gist items. I like them and surely I am entitled to have an inexhaustable supply. Oh yeah, GIMME NOW CCP! 
Also many builders (myself included) prefer to deal bypassing the market because we can trade for other goods and build business relationships with cool people and not the god damn whiners whoring this forum. Bye!
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Lucio
Gallente
Incorporated Holdings
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Posted - 2006.08.27 10:24:00 -
[125]
Heavy Assault Cruiser supply is definately getting harder and harder to obtain on the open market at a fair cost. Part of the reason for this though is akin to the Prisoner's Dilemma. If you sell your goods at less than top notch price, chances are someone will sell them on at top notch price.
So, as a corporation that has a HAC BPO we're stuck. We can produce 5 units a week and either sell them on the open market at the best price we can get, or we can sell at a loss and let someone else get profits off our work, or we can trade with alliances where we get intangibles back in return for the loss of profit.
Of course, there's nothing CCP can actually do about this situation, because you can't impose restrictions on reselling without screwing ppl over far down the line.
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Yes, I know I have a negative sec. status but I'm not a pirate damnit! |
Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
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Posted - 2006.08.27 11:03:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Risien Drogonne
Originally by: Alessar Kaldorei
Has anyone considered that maybe CCP intended for HACs and other tech II items to be only available to alliances?
Maybe at one point, but not any longer. There's a dev quote that goes something like "in Kali, maybe it's time tech 2 was the new baseline".
If Tech2 was to become common as dirt, you still would get a problem with supplying the materials to build the components, and you would see the price go up in another part of the chain.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
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Posted - 2006.08.27 11:07:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Ilmonstre
the problem is not just with hac's and rechargers.
when a product becomes very popular the price goes up insanely just look at the recent 425mm railgun prices doubled within 2 weeks time going price is 15 mill per gun wich is kinda insane since you need 7 fo those things on 1 megathron.
15 mill for such a gun is still cheap. I still remember how much I had to pay for a full set of 1400 Scout arties back in the day.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
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Jason Marshall
Hammer Of Light
Astral Wolves
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Posted - 2006.08.27 11:15:00 -
[128]
Screw HACs....Assult frigates man...assault frigates.
Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw! |
Morpheus Dreadnor
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Posted - 2006.08.27 11:25:00 -
[129]
seed more bpo. ive had 4Rd agents since start of em, never gotten anything.. i call that scaming, i pay for eve, i wanna be able to sometimes to say wow, i played for 3 + years i FINALY got my bpo or SOMETHING, hell even an ammo bpo would be cool. the lottery is SOLID scam, and the one having 1 good bpo buy other t2 bpos up from auctions because they got fat rich and lazy from the 1 good bpo they started with.. there should be other way to get such bpo. like say i war dec a corp and demand that corp to give me that bpo if they loose as terms, then when they loose the bpo is given to me. and this requires another way of war as it is today, i sugest that people simply put a factor up some terms that decide lose or win.. like war dec an aliance u need to see at membercount and then see how many ships they need to gte blown up to win etc... PLUS when at war theres nothing such thing as insurance.. WAKE UP CCP: period agent RD are the PAIN!
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nahtoh
Caldari
Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.27 11:28:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Daddy's Princess
It's real easy to spot someone that has never tried t2 production or even looked into it a bit further beyond "OMG, I must have cheap ships"
FACT: Only a handful a BPOs present a "super happy fun adventure" where you fart isk on demand. I would estimate 90% of the t2 market is down the toilet where you're in competition non stop.
Also, someone metioned it before and I can't be bothered going back to find it... Just buy a damn BPO and be done with it like the rest of the BPO owners. You are seriously hallucinating if you believe big time t2 sellers got their BPOs in the lottery. They invested, and people that won them in the lottery are probably back to where they were before it. But of course, I bet you will choose to ignore this.
Also, I would like to take this opportunity to make a demand for easily available BPOs for all Domination and Gist items. I like them and surely I am entitled to have an inexhaustable supply. Oh yeah, GIMME NOW CCP!
Also many builders (myself included) prefer to deal bypassing the market because we can trade for other goods and build business relationships with cool people and not the god damn whiners whoring this forum. Bye!
Oh pls, some of us are not looking for a inexhausble suppply or dirt cheap ships but a decent supply and cheaper than currently avalible supply.
The amount of BPOS for HACs did not scale with the user base if its only 8 copies per HAC (and I thought it was more than that), Then its even more screwed than I thought it was...
I don't mind paying over double the build/base price of a HAC because they are fun ships to fly...But when the prices start toget to triple the base price if not higher its starting to get to fecking silly prices...
Hell I don't care how they fix it, be it invention, build time, seeding more BPOs or allowing BPC drops via research agents I am not going to try and break into tech 2 ship building I have no reseach agents nor am I in the POS market.
If more HACS become avalible then I would reckon that the supply chain will become less static due to more being built perhaps spreading the proit out more to componant producers rather than a small amount of BPO holders or resellers taking the lions share of the ISK in the market.
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"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
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Darkrydar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.27 11:35:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Jason Marshall
Screw HACs....Assult frigates man...assault frigates.
Hell with that, I'm gonna fly logistic ships and (non-caldari) stealthbombers in protest.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.27 11:47:00 -
[132]
Jenny Spitfire final thought.
Give it a break. Let the carebears make ISKs. PvPers want cheap ships to grief carebears. Carebears grief PvPers selling expensive pwnmobiles. Moral of EvE is whatever you do will effect others in this hellhole. Dont grief others if you do not want others to grief onto you.
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In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.27 11:58:00 -
[133]
CCP wont do anything about this.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2006.08.27 12:13:00 -
[134]
Without reading all 4 pages:
It's normal for the HAC prices to rise this period. All t2 prices seem to go uuuuuuuuup, in some cases even 50%+ since the summer hit.
I don't remember if this happened last summer, but I think it's quite normal. A lot of people go away for vacations and some of them are t2 producers, and that absence translates in horrible (or sweeeeeet for some people) t2 prices.
Originally by: Oveur
I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
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Larkonis Trassler
g guild
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Posted - 2006.08.27 12:16:00 -
[135]
Can someone please explain to me how seeding more HAC BPOs will reduce prices? There is already plenty of demand for HACs at current prices... in fact it seems to be outstripping supply in some places... even though they may be a little on the high side.
Little Johnny Carebear recieves a brand new Cerb BPO through the lottery... does he:
A. Say: 'I will fight the injustice of the cartels! Cerbs for 60mil just like last year!111'
B. Say: 'ZOMG! A Cerb BPO! I'm going to be rich! Yarr!'
I know which option I'd pick.
Prices may well drop slightly do to an increase in supply. But greed will get the better of the producers. Same with this reverse engineering rubbish. If these people know they can sell their new HACS for 250 mil then they'll sell them for that much, I sure as hell would. People have become used to high prices. A communist wonderland where producers sell for next to no profit is a fantasy a lot of you guys have. If you can't afford that ship or module work harder... plenty of other people can afford them.
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ZOMG!!!111 100K EMFI Share Lotto! 40 mil per ticket!!! |
Succoros
Caldari
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.08.27 12:26:00 -
[136]
Any chance of a cheap vagabond Jenny? 
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Death is more eternal than life.
Everyone dies but not everyone lives. |
BlackBeard 007
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Posted - 2006.08.27 12:38:00 -
[137]
Edited by: BlackBeard 007 on 27/08/2006 12:38:29
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Did you do a survey or do you pull this "fact" out of your arse?
Originally by: Deja Thoris
*snip* Now stfu you clueless noob.
jeeez you bring down these great forums with such posts, your acting like a frustrated 13 year old, get a grip dude.
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I think that the biggest problem with the populair items is scaling cause of player getting more skills and we are getting more players in general, however I for one have red all the dev blogs and are pretty convinced that the DEVS will get it right in Kali with invention/reverse enginering.
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I offer ISK for a nice sig for me :) |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.27 12:41:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler
Prices may well drop slightly do to an increase in supply. But greed will get the better of the producers. Same with this reverse engineering rubbish. If these people know they can sell their new HACS for 250 mil then they'll sell them for that much, I sure as hell would. People have become used to high prices. A communist wonderland where producers sell for next to no profit is a fantasy a lot of you guys have. If you can't afford that ship or module work harder... plenty of other people can afford them.
We are talking about free market and competition, not communism. If reverse engineering/invention could't follow demand either due to artificial limits, then it's crap too.
If it can, then the price of the extremely high priced items will fall. That isn't communism, that's how free market works, if the number of producers isn't artificially limited to a low number.
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Godar Marak
Amarr
Return Of Red Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.27 12:43:00 -
[139]
The fact that you hardly can find HAC's on the market shows that the system isnt working, when you see more Navy Ravens on escrow than stabbabonds on market then you know something is broken.
The only ones defending the current system is the bpo owners and their lackies.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.27 12:49:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Succoros
Any chance of a cheap vagabond Jenny?
Use market. 
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In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.27 12:49:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Plutoinum
We are talking about free market and competition, not communism. If reverse engineering/invention could't follow demand either due to artificial limits, then it's crap too.
If it can, then the price of the extremely high priced items will fall. That isn't communism, that's how free market works, if the number of producers isn't artificially limited to a low number.
edit:
The owners of the top hac bpos are afraid of competition and free market, because it means less profit, but I couldn't care less.
If they build a hac for 40 mil isk or so and sell it for 240mil, they have no right to demand that it stays that way. They have made far more money than they deserve.
It's just a rediculous result of a flawed t2 system that neglected that demand rises over the years due to higher player numbers and more people, who are able to use such things.
In free market, ISKs dont grow on trees. In EvE, ISKs grow on trees.
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In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.27 13:01:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 27/08/2006 13:01:33
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
In free market, ISKs dont grow on trees. In EvE, ISKs grow on trees.
Not for me. I need to rat 24h non-stop for something like a vagabond in our area. A bit rediculous for a small pvp toy that's supposed to die in combat. So the ISK grows maybe on trees for the BPO holders, because they invest almost no time to get a few hundred million isk.
Think I should start scamming to get my money as easily. Hmm ...
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WhiskeyDP
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Posted - 2006.08.27 13:06:00 -
[143]
100-200m is about the same as 10m or so back in summer -03. lvl4 missions was what started the trend imo(not to mention all the improved miningskills/equipment and so on) its too easy to make isk.
everyone wants to make more isk right? new better guns/miners/ships/skills that make u more effective in ur isk making job will ofc have an effect on prices on modules/ships/implants or what ever. since ppl keep buying the modules/ships on market it cant be too high price can it?
i am pretty sure every efficient miner/agent runner can make anything between 50-200m during a day. thats atleast 1 hac(100m one) every 2 days or an expensive one every 4 days. if i had been able to get a bs in 4 days back in august -03 when most ppl started to get the skills for it i would have been a happy player. it probably took more like 2-4 weeks to get a bs then.
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wts BPC's - check my bio. Best Collection ingame? |
coldplasma
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Posted - 2006.08.27 13:13:00 -
[144]
This game is increasing rapidly in userbase, it's only logical for CCP to increase the amount of T2 blueprints that are pooled within the system. I can only hope they do this in the future.
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See you in 0.0 kids... |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.27 13:19:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 27/08/2006 13:21:14
Originally by: WhiskeyDP
100-200m is about the same as 10m or so back in summer -03. lvl4 missions was what started the trend imo(not to mention all the improved miningskills/equipment and so on) its too easy to make isk.
Factor 10 or 20 ? Don't compare your 2003 nub char with an advanced character. Every nub earns a lot less then an advanced char with advanced equipment. That's how it's supposed to be.
If I had to work my ass of for a BS now like I did it for my first BS, I'd surely not pvp in a BS and I would probably not play at all anymore, because the pvp vs. grind ratio would be stupid.
In 2004 I got already 10mil mission rewards or so for some missions in my rifter with a char that was 10 days old. Implants and tech-2 components (reactors) that sold very well. 
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.27 13:20:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Daddy's Princess
It's real easy to spot someone that has never tried t2 production or even looked into it a bit further beyond "OMG, I must have cheap ships"
If you actually read what most people post, you would see no-one is saying 'I want cheap ships'. Most are highlighting a glaring fault in the EVE economic model, and saying, quite rightly, that something should be done to correct it.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.27 13:24:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 27/08/2006 13:24:24
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Plutoinum
We are talking about free market and competition, not communism. If reverse engineering/invention could't follow demand either due to artificial limits, then it's crap too.
If it can, then the price of the extremely high priced items will fall. That isn't communism, that's how free market works, if the number of producers isn't artificially limited to a low number.
edit:
The owners of the top hac bpos are afraid of competition and free market, because it means less profit, but I couldn't care less.
If they build a hac for 40 mil isk or so and sell it for 240mil, they have no right to demand that it stays that way. They have made far more money than they deserve.
It's just a rediculous result of a flawed t2 system that neglected that demand rises over the years due to higher player numbers and more people, who are able to use such things.
In free market, ISKs dont grow on trees. In EvE, ISKs grow on trees.
Pointing out flaws in the system is NOT an excuse to stop the end of the T2 joke, and let T2 producers be subject to the same market forces as anyone else in the game.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.27 13:50:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/08/2006 13:54:40
@ Butterdog, Plutonium.
The system isnt totally wrecked. It works. It has limitations. It is an artificial economy. Free market is there. Overpriced T2s arent that bad. They hurt you most because you notice them when you buy ships. You buy T2 ships, bring to PvP, they get popped and no chance to loot and resell. EvE really needs a mixture of ships and not pure T2 flavours. T1 ships, sub-T2 ships, pure T2 ships and faction ships are what makes EvE special. Isnt it still the idea that newbs, semi-vets and vets can co-exists and kill each other?
You guys are whining something that CCP is trying to fix by introducing limited BPCs. With those BPCs, you cant guarantee they will be cheap. You want to make them cheap, dont buy them. Fly sub-T2 ships. Ikvar does that often. Play for fun, not to own people and "win ego boosting". I know I can sell Vagabonds easily for 500M. When Kali comes, why wont my alt research limited Vagabond BPCs and sell them at 499M? It is a game of undercutting. No system will guarantee 80M ISKs Vagabonds when ISKs grow on trees, mods can be looted and ships are 100% destroyed. Players with PvP mains and industrial alts roam the space and if you ask me, T2 industrial alts arent earning that much ISKs. What they earn goes into drain buying POS fuels and towers for their alliances they create.
Producers -> Resellers -> Buyers -> Producers.
What is so hard to comprehend? Dont like it, dont buy them. Everytime when a Vagabond dies, I am very happy. 
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In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.27 14:02:00 -
[149]
Jenny, I understand all of that, and I know how the game works.
My problem isnt with the price of HAC's per se, its the whole system for distributing the BPOS, artifically limiting the supply, and protecting BPO owners from the Capitalistic nature of the EVE economy.
That is what needs to change. In no semi-plausible economic model would you have a situation where a highly profitable blueprint is given away 'free' in a lottery, then supply articially limited. For the T2 economic model in EVE to not be a complete joke, which is what I believe it is at the moment, the market needs to be opened up to real competition, real supply and demand economics.
It is a glaring fault in EVE's otherwise excellent economic model. The notion that no new producers would move into such a profitable market is insane. Sooner or later, owners of the more profitable T2 BPO's will have to realise that although they are in a somewhat enviable position ISK-wise, it is to the detriment of the game. EVE deserves better, from an economy model perspective.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.27 14:03:00 -
[150]
Kali is coming and your point for whining?
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In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
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