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Why not limit everyone to about 250ish bookmarks per character.

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Infinity Ziona Apostasia	Posted - 2006.08.27 23:55:00 - [31] The graduation of EvE Online toward EzE Online: Insurance Instas POS Jump Clones GTC Sales Character Sales / Transfers 0 Warp Skill Queues What will be next? Sentry Guns for Alliances? Instanced roid fields? Ship Clones? Remove Instas and play the game like it was supposed to be played and stop asking for more immunity plz. Its a space game, travel time and length is an option YOU CHOOSE and its supposed to be long. Click Me
Reiisha Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.27 23:55:00 - [32] Originally by: Ithildin OP: The reason is simple - it doesn't solve the problems, only create a new and greater one. The number one reason for people quitting EVE: travel times are too long. People were never supposed to do 300 jumps per hour. But i guess that's a vicious circle.
Lisento Slaven Amarr The Drekla Consortium New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.08.28 00:26:00 - [33] To the person who asked about making instas client-side: I have suggested this as well but there is one big reason why it should NOT be done... People will edit the file so that they could have an unbreakable safespot. This is very bad. Very bad. --- Lisento Slaven wants to be a Space Whaler in EVE. Put in space whales!
Gretchen Dawntreader Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.28 02:24:00 - [34] "Insurance Instas POS Jump Clones GTC Sales Character Sales / Transfers 0 Warp Skill Queues" Wow, you're hard core. Must be truly immersive slowly floating the 15km toward a camped gate. I'm sure the roleplay immersion is incomparable. And of course none of your ships are insured. Hope they don't pod you since you don't like jump clones either....all those replacement implants must add up.
Waffle House	Posted - 2006.08.28 07:52:00 - [35] another insta debate.... 1) make insta's drift a little every day/week. If you will be traveling, you can create a set that will be good for a week or two, but useless a month later (insta's to gate). These would still be good for getting to your safe spot or that position 150-200km off gate or station, since being 20km off in this case does not matter. 2) delete insta's in P&P after 2 months, but not in hanger. That way you can keep that set for safe spots (and keep refreshing it in P&P), but are unlikely to waiste the time of loading 1000's of bm's back in every 2 months (since most would be bad at this point). I think the problem with bookmarks is that people accumulate them (so your P&P just gets bigger and bigger), and that they allow semi safe travel with limited effort. If your constantly having to get new sets, your either going to work hard at it, or going to live with a limited set.
Dukath	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:48:00 - [36] Originally by: Alberta Originally by: Dukath snip 4) enforce the anchor skill to have max 5 objects anchored per level I'm curious as to how you see that one working out with POS. You can always limit the skill to only affect cargo cans and bubbles and leave POS stuff out of it
Carella Fortune	Posted - 2006.08.28 16:24:00 - [37] Look in my opinion if you take bookmarks out of the game it makes it pointless to fly around in anything but frigates or ships with MWD's on them as you will spend hours gettin from place to place. This will also make fleets impossible unless you all do the same speed as people will be waiting at gates for people to catchup and so on. Anyone who has ever flown in a gang will no that this is unmanagable. So there will have to be some way to warp to 0Km off a gate. I dont see why this cant be done and then ccp will not have the database problem they have. Finaly if you want to catch people at a gate you can do it go to a 0.0 system and setup a camp so there is nothing to wine about.
Daniel Jackson Caldari Azule Wolves	Posted - 2006.08.28 16:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Lisento Slaven To the person who asked about making instas client-side: I have suggested this as well but there is one big reason why it should NOT be done... People will edit the file so that they could have an unbreakable safespot. This is very bad. Very bad. ccp could encryped them so much, and etc, so the file cant be edited my most % of people, but if they do, (acordig to the EULA) states that u not allow to hack the game files to use as an advantage, or somthign thaat reflects ingame. ___________________
Darviaari	Posted - 2006.08.28 17:27:00 - [39] Originally by: Infinity Ziona The graduation of EvE Online toward EzE Online: Insurance Instas POS Jump Clones GTC Sales Character Sales / Transfers 0 Warp Skill Queues What will be next? Sentry Guns for Alliances? Instanced roid fields? Ship Clones? Remove Instas and play the game like it was supposed to be played and stop asking for more immunity plz. Its a space game, travel time and length is an option YOU CHOOSE and its supposed to be long. I agree. Maybe not with the fact that it is good if the travel is long (=boooring). But with fact, that is wa not sopposed to warp to 0km. 0.0 sec is NOT supposed to be safe. So you can not argue, that removing instas is bad because you will be killed in 0.0. 0.0 is supposed to be dangerous and not to be for everyone. If you want to go to 0.0 - be prepaired. Now there is almost no difference between 1.0 and 0.0 - you just have to copy BMs. It is make it WoW like game :-( I agree with idea to make warp: to 0km in 1.0 sec. to 0.5 km in 0.9 sec to 1 km in 0.8 sec ... 10 km in 0.0 sec So the sefe regions will be safe and with quick travel. The low sec it will be more dangerous. But in my opinion - the low sec should be dangerous. And 0.0 should be very dangerous.
Gresin	Posted - 2006.08.28 17:50:00 - [40] Make instas destroy themselves(out of date information bla bla bla) after not used for 2 months.
Rylet VanDorn	Posted - 2006.08.28 19:38:00 - [41] For those *****ing endlessly about instas, let us speculate on the consequences of CCP removing bookmarks without offering a replacement A) The market on instas would obviously tank, forcing some to find different sources of income. B) Overall prices will rise, as instas facilitate quicker income generation among haulers and mission runners via reduced travel time. C) With increased lethality, 0.0 will become completely avoided territory by people who, with instas, may risk the trip. This reduces the overall population of 0.0, giving pirates and gate campers fewer victims to prey on. D) Prices on battleships and, consequently, all large weapons, modules (including faction modules), and ammo may ultimately end up dropping dramatically as people skip the BS (travel too slow without instas) and go straight for HACs (Thus driving the price for these through the roof) for mission running, etc. Basically we're talking about a general transition of people (ie. the pirates' prey) away from 0.0 as it becomes deadlier space. So instead of just calling for a blanket removal of instas, how about suggesting solutions that don't completely gimp all travel. I'll admit, imho gate camping is the laziest method out there for skilless people to be pirates (next to zerging around with 30 or so friends...), so anything that makes them actually work for a change is good to me.
Dukath	Posted - 2006.08.28 20:49:00 - [42] Originally by: Rylet VanDorn For those *****ing endlessly about instas, let us speculate on the consequences of CCP removing bookmarks without offering a replacement A) The market on instas would obviously tank, forcing some to find different sources of income. B) Overall prices will rise, as instas facilitate quicker income generation among haulers and mission runners via reduced travel time. C) With increased lethality, 0.0 will become completely avoided territory by people who, with instas, may risk the trip. This reduces the overall population of 0.0, giving pirates and gate campers fewer victims to prey on. D) Prices on battleships and, consequently, all large weapons, modules (including faction modules), and ammo may ultimately end up dropping dramatically as people skip the BS (travel too slow without instas) and go straight for HACs (Thus driving the price for these through the roof) for mission running, etc. Basically we're talking about a general transition of people (ie. the pirates' prey) away from 0.0 as it becomes deadlier space. So instead of just calling for a blanket removal of instas, how about suggesting solutions that don't completely gimp all travel. I'll admit, imho gate camping is the laziest method out there for skilless people to be pirates (next to zerging around with 30 or so friends...), so anything that makes them actually work for a change is good to me. I like the direction you are going, only you stopped way too soon: E) since battleships are too slow and hacs are practically unfindable people fly cruisers and battlecruisers en masse. These ships are a lot cheaper so people will not lose so much in pvp. As a result there will be much more pvp, fun to be had for all and more people will move into 0.0. F) the large alliances cannot control the same amount of territory without instajumps leaving a lot of opportunities for smaller gangs to sneak in and NPC or mine in the so called alliance territory. G) Soon people will realise that instajumps are really not needed to play in 0.0 but since they all switched to cruiser and take more risks since its so much cheaper than flying battleships people have more fun overall. See, all the more reasons to nuke instajumps without compensation.
Dr Slurm	Posted - 2006.08.28 20:55:00 - [43] Originally by: Ghoest No one could have an insta to every spot in the galaxy. But you could have the one most important to you. I think one of the great things in MMOs is trade offs and hard decisions. Every one could have an insta route from high sec to their favorite regions still. But it would graty cut server load. One nice thing about this is CCP could also add some actual game support for the insta system if it was no longer a server drag. Because it would be better to fix the problem so when the player base grows even more they don't have to cut it down to 100 bookmarks, then 50, then 25... Click above to find out more
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.08.28 21:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Rylet VanDorn For those ***ing endlessly about instas, let us speculate on the consequences of CCP removing bookmarks without offering a replacement Originally by:** Rylet VanDorn A) The market on instas would obviously tank, forcing some to find different sources of income. Not an issue. Originally by: Rylet VanDorn B) Overall prices will rise, as instas facilitate quicker income generation among haulers and mission runners via reduced travel time. Wrong. Prices would shift. Some items in some regions would increase. But over all it would not cause inflation. The money supply and the total production are still the same. You would create a new middle man, which should have ben there all along. Originally by: Rylet VanDorn C) With increased lethality, 0.0 will become completely avoided territory by people who, with instas, may risk the trip. This reduces the overall population of 0.0, giving pirates and gate campers fewer victims to prey on. The first part is true. But some people will do it still so you probably increase the number of people ganked - but that probably isnt good either. And its definetly bad if less people spend time in 0.0 Originally by: Rylet VanDorn D) Prices on battleships and, consequently, all large weapons, modules (including faction modules), and ammo may ultimately end up dropping dramatically as people skip the BS (travel too slow without instas) and go straight for HACs (Thus driving the price for these through the roof) for mission running, etc. Battle ship prices are already very low they cant drop much more. HAC prices are already driven by rarity so while they may keep rising this wouldnt be the reason. Originally by: Rylet VanDorn Basically we're talking about a general transition of people (ie. the pirates' prey) away from 0.0 as it becomes deadlier space. So instead of just calling for a blanket removal of instas, how about suggesting solutions that don't completely gimp all travel. I'll admit, imho gate camping is the laziest method out there for skilless people to be pirates (next to zerging around with 30 or so friends...), so anything that makes them actually work for a change is good to me. Your over all veiw is correct. Its too easy to shut down 0.0 gates if people dont have instas. Wherever you went - here you are.
Kraven Kor Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.28 21:52:00 - [45] Why not get rid of insta's and bookmarks ENTIRELY, and make it to where you can go anywhere in the system using the new "System Scanning" model coming with Kali? Strength through Unity, Discipline, and Honor!
Caliith	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:15:00 - [46] Originally by: Waffle House another insta debate.... 1) make insta's drift a little every day/week. If you will be traveling, you can create a set that will be good for a week or two, but useless a month later (insta's to gate). These would still be good for getting to your safe spot or that position 150-200km off gate or station, since being 20km off in this case does not matter. 2) delete insta's in P&P after 2 months, but not in hanger. That way you can keep that set for safe spots (and keep refreshing it in P&P), but are unlikely to waiste the time of loading 1000's of bm's back in every 2 months (since most would be bad at this point). I think the problem with bookmarks is that people accumulate them (so your P&P just gets bigger and bigger), and that they allow semi safe travel with limited effort. If your constantly having to get new sets, your either going to work hard at it, or going to live with a limited set. this seems like a very good idea, too bad most pple seem to have missed it
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:33:00 - [47] Yes, becuase copying instas in and out for an hour+ a day when you go somewhere else is fun. Oh wait... Jim McGregor, actually most "2" ideas are combined with new ways to active interdict targets. Dukath, "remove instas". Basically. Rip out the core systems and give noting in return, Shadowbane gameplay, kill the game. Same as absokutely allways, with prettier words to try and obscure 2. Let's be clear, you support: A: A less healthy market. B: Overall higher prices (inflation). C: 0.0 only avaliable to a select few. D: More expensive HAC's E: No point PvPing without T2 ships - HAC/Recon/CBC. F: Expanded alliance terratories with snipers camping the gates into 0.0 23/7 G: People realising that other games are better without instas, since 0.0/lowsec entry gates are camped and utter deathtraps and highsec gets boring after a while. H: If you can't play the game 8+ hours a day and are an ardent PvPer, you have no place, and you should cancel your subscription because you're not good enough for Eve. "You can always limit the skill to only affect cargo cans and bubbles and leave POS stuff out of it" Artifical limits to protect a broken idea. Patch Esquire, completely untrue. Faster ships align faster. Instas do not distort the basic ratios of travel speeds (except for freighers). "make it so you warp to within 15km of the BM in any direction" Remove instas AND still have database lag! Baldour Ngarr, not at all. New ways to actively interdict... Infinity Ziona, and funnily enough I still don't have problems killing stuff. The problem would appear to be with, well, your skills as a player. Gresin, so I need to re-buy and re-copy every 2 months? GRIIIIND Ghoest, ? B. Absolutely causes massive inflationary pressure. Production will tank because very few will be willing to spend hours doing the 10 jumps to market in the hubs in a freighter. You destroy ANY semblence of a "middle man"... you destroy any pretence of a player-run market. T1 will soar, NPC price basically being the only important factor. //Maya
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:35:00 - [48] Originally by: Reiisha Originally by: Ithildin OP: The reason is simple - it doesn't solve the problems, only create a new and greater one. The number one reason for people quitting EVE: travel times are too long. People were never supposed to do 300 jumps per hour. But i guess that's a vicious circle. ? I should be surprised that you do not realise that people cannot jump 300 systems per hour, but I am not given the ideas you support. At best, 45-50 in an interceptor. There is no "vicious cycle" outside the imagination of the people who would be better off playing Shadowbane, and destroying travel will simply make people move closer to the hubs, increasing the lag issues. //Maya
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:54:00 - [49] Edited by: Ghoest on 28/08/2006 22:58:53 Originally by: Maya Rkell Y Ghoest, ? B. Absolutely causes massive inflationary pressure. Production will tank because very few will be willing to spend hours doing the 10 jumps to market in the hubs in a freighter. You destroy ANY semblence of a "middle man"... you destroy any pretence of a player-run market. T1 will soar, NPC price basically being the only important factor. You know very little about economics you would do best to avoid the subject. Im not in favor of slow travel. But Im also not infavor of ignorance arguing for my position. So.... Secure markets wont be effected much. There will be a higher cost for people who want to buy in Hubs to pay for the travel time. But the market will find people to quickly fill this role. And market forces will make it rather inexpensive. Yes EVE does have a functioning market in this respect. Also it will encourage people to shop in secure systems other than Jita and Rens for the discount - not exactly a disaster. Now in low sec it could really raises prices. But thats actually reasonable. The markets on 0.0 are private markets mostly so they can deal with it themselves. EDIT: Also the travel costs will increase the economy actually and provode an additional way for people to get income. Wherever you went - here you are.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:10:00 - [50] You know absolutely nothing about MMORPG economics, so...no. "Secure markets wont be effected much." Absolute rubbish. The factory system means that you cannot guarantee any form of production, and must do a lot of it away from the hubs. The only way to move many high-volume goods, like ships, is freighters. Freighter travel is an slow grind without instas. An option only avaliable with hours and hours to "play". This is going to mean less goods on the market, and less people manufacturing. "But the market will find people to quickly fill this role." No evidence, no evidence AT ALL. The peripheral markets are still suffering from killing off the sellers when sell order limits were introduced. "Also it will encourage people to shop in secure systems other than Jita and Rens for the discount - not exactly a disaster." Yes, a disaster. MORE lag in those systems, and an even worse peripheral market. Not what CCP want at all! "EDIT: Also the travel costs will increase the economy actually and provode an additional way for people to get income." No, it will not. It means less T1 goods on the market - any corp out the center needs to run into it (taking a lot MORE time), or do produce its own, not buying off the market for its needs. //Maya
Guillame Herschel Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Ghoest Jim. Well my suggestion alows people to have some BMs for the original reasons such as marking cans as well as safespots. One of the original purposes of bookmarks was making instas. CCP tells new players how to make instas right in the Player Guide. http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g06.asp Scroll down to "Setting Bookmarks." The way the player base uses instas is not at all unintended. According to the Player Guide, instas separate the advanced players from the novices. So I expect all the carping to stop now. CCP must figure out how to make more table space for bookmarks, or rewrite the Player Guide, or replace them with something not quite so lame. The bottom line however is that instas are a basic game mechanic, officially.
Sfynx The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:17:00 - [52] Originally by: Uggster Gates and stations (not POS's or player outposts) should move. 15k - 25k per month. This would mean that those people that continually use that part of space or pipe route would have to constantly update thier BM's and discard the inacurate ones. For example, I have a BM set around Fountain space, I have not been their since the dawn of creation but I'll not get rid of them cos I know if I do go back they will work perfectly now as then. This means I have at least 250 odd BM's right there thats taking up space. The nature of Eve right now requires BM (esspecally if you lead gangs/fleets etc) but they should be made to be relevant to your current situation. And does remaking the bookmarks every month (and subsequent copying for all your corpmates) solve or worsen the server load?
Wrayeth Omerta Syndicate Pure.	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:23:00 - [53] Long-ass travel times would kill much of the fun in EVE. It takes long enough to go somewhere relatively far away WITH instas, especially if you have to do it in a slow-ass battleship. Without them, it would be completely impossible. Say I only have two hours to play on a given night because of homework from university classes. I could currently log on, spend fifteen minutes getting a gang together, another fifteen minutes traveling to my destination in a battleship, an hour and fifteen minutes shooting at targets and playing cat-and-mouse with them, then fifteen minutes to get back home and log. All in all, I've had quite a decent amount of time to play and have fun. Now let's try this with no instas. I log on, spend fifteen minutes putting together a gang, forty-five in travel, fifteen hunting for targets and fighting, and another forty-five to get home. Total time actually spent having fun: fifteen minutes. I.E. why the **** am I even playing this game? This is why flat-out removing instas would suck ass. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:44:00 - [54] Originally by: Maya Rkell You know absolutely nothing about MMORPG economics, so...no. "Secure markets wont be effected much." Absolute rubbish. The factory system means that you cannot guarantee any form of production, and must do a lot of it away from the hubs. The only way to move many high-volume goods, like ships, is freighters. Freighter travel is an slow grind without instas. An option only avaliable with hours and hours to "play". This is going to mean less goods on the market, and less people manufacturing. "But the market will find people to quickly fill this role." No evidence, no evidence AT ALL. The peripheral markets are still suffering from killing off the sellers when sell order limits were introduced. "Also it will encourage people to shop in secure systems other than Jita and Rens for the discount - not exactly a disaster." Yes, a disaster. MORE lag in those systems, and an even worse peripheral market. Not what CCP want at all! "EDIT: Also the travel costs will increase the economy actually and provode an additional way for people to get income." No, it will not. It means less T1 goods on the market - any corp out the center needs to run into it (taking a lot MORE time), or do produce its own, not buying off the market for its needs. You say I have no evidense when really you have no evidense. No one has proof actually. But we do have 300 years of real world free markets to observe and the do support my position. The cool thing about EVEs economy is how much it has managed to behave like a real world market so far. You know Maya. You mostly just make a rucus tell everyone they are wrong and never never make a good argument beyond - "I think this will happen." Wherever you went - here you are.
Savage Creampuff	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:47:00 - [55] I have many many bm's sitting neat and organized in cans in various hangers. Whenever i need a set i just put them in my ppl and places and delete the ones i won't be needing. I outfit my ship and i outfit my ppl and places for the task at hand. No need for the long wait whenever i open the ppl and places. Cause getting killed by lag sucks monkey ass.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:50:00 - [56] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 28/08/2006 23:52:29 Of course there is evidence. Eve's economic system has new aspects, but is in no way entirely new. Not to mention previous evidence from Eve itself. "But we do have 300 years of real world free markets to observe and the do support my position" "Free" markets. Eve is a semi-controlled market, and your lack of knowledge about MMO markets is telling. The issue of the sell orders killing off most of the sellers from that period (between the introduction and tychoon being introduced, when it was utterly impossible to sell on the market decently..and it's hard even now) has had reverberations which affect Eve to this day, for example. "You mostly just make a rucus tell everyone they are wrong" Aw, no good counter argument? I'm right even what sucks - take the evoloution of traffic control, for example... (oh, plus again: I agree with as many threads as I disagree..) //Maya
Logrim Zane	Posted - 2006.08.29 07:40:00 - [57] Tuppence worth from a new player ... If the problem with Instas is that they clog up the database - but you want a solution that does not dramatically alter the rest of the gameplay; then a possible solution might be the following. 1) Warping to Bookmarks takes you to 0 Km 2) All other warping (Autopilot, etc) takes you to the usual min 15 Km This way you reduce the numbers of BM that people have in each system from N! to N - as you wouldn't need bm's to every location from every location; just bm's to each loc.
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.08.29 08:12:00 - [58] Edited by: Wild Rho on 29/08/2006 08:13:55 To the OP, nice idea. Simple and sweet that solves a number of problems and actually makes people need to think about what instas they want. The idea could be combined with weirdas idea of corp/alliance bms as well that also have a hard limit. The only major alterations I'd make would be... - Instas can't be copied (if you want them you either need to make them yourself or buy them from a dealer. If you're a dealer you're gonna have to put more effort in than setting them to copy and going afk for an hour. It would also help reduce server workload - I hope). - Instas can't be stored in hanger bays etc. They need to be "written" to some sort of item to be stored outside the people and places and/or transferred to other players. This device would actually make controlling and assigning corp/alliance instas much easier as well. Just put the corp/alliance bms into one of these devices and "upload" them to the corp for everyone to have access. It would also reduce lag and workload when loading a hanger bay that would otherwise be full of bms. Currently people already do somthing similar anyway by putting them in shuttles/cans anyway. Either way somthing needs to be done regardless of how many people ***** about it as they are starting to really fill up the servers and cause problems. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
NoNameNewbie Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.29 10:01:00 - [59] tbh .. lol at pirates that complain about not getting kills if there would be a jump to 0km option ... guys .. theres something else then sitting at 200km, fully aligned to a warpoutspot while being stabbed ... u dont risk anything so u should never get a kill .. easy as that .. tip: if u camp closerange u can use the gate to jump after ur target and kill it on the other side ? ;) i gues some ppl heard about that ...
drunkenmaster Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:46:00 - [60] I remember having this exact same argument back in the day. What it amounted to for me, as a high-quality pirate, was that the only people I would be able to target and get a shot off at were noobs, and people on their first visits to the perilous 0.0 systems. Anyone with anything worth being pirated for warped directly in to the gate, and jumped out. With the right support, I could sometimes scramble someone when they tried to jump away from the gate, but by support, I'm talking about a scorpion with 4-6 remote sensor boosters, on top of the two sensor boosters on my ship. But targetting lag (which is still a problem) often made this impossible. Despite being able to lock a frigate in (technically) 0.4 seconds, it would still take 2 seconds before I could do anything with the lock. And adding the general lag between someone uncloaking locally, and other people nearby seeing them uncloak, made this practically impossible. And I'm not talking about the '180km from the gate stabbed sniper' wusses here, this was the web/scramble close range ransoming kind of piracy. The type where, if the wrong type of people came through the gate, you were actually in some amount of trouble. For the entire first year of playing, this was made harder and harder. So I complained about it. Did it help? I would say 'not in the slightest'. I suggested that such things were changed before most of the playerbase started taking them for granted. Nothing. I pointed out that having 0.0 as easily accessible as 0.4 would make it less of a challenge. Nothing. I also said that the sub-warp speeds of ships didn't make a dot of difference if they can all use instas, and that a fully loaded hauler can travel across multiple systems almost as fast as a frigate. There was no down side to fitting cargo expanders, as the reduction in sub-warp speed didn't matter any more. Still nothing. You can fit out pretty much any ship with as many inertial stabs as you can manage, and have it be untouchable, save for lag and pilot error. So don't hold your breath. Everyone has gotten used to it, and I think it's too deeply entrenched to remove now. .

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