EVE Search - [Exploitable] GTC's / Charachter Sales / Trial Accounts

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

[Exploitable] GTC's / Charachter Sales / Trial Accounts

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:13:00 - [1] Is it me or does CCP really need to rethink their policy surrounding these two issues. And in fact i'd go as far as saying they need to ban the funtion NOW. Well ok maybe not quite that drastic, but close GTC's & Charachter Sales As it stands at this present time the allowing of charchter sales and GTC's is the easiest and most exploitanle system I can actually remember you implenting. All any person in Eve requires in order to iether make a large portion of isk completely risk free, or to make a tidy amount of real life cash again completely risk and effort free is to have a trial account. (Or did CCP make them unable to send/recieve isk ? If so use an account payed for under bogus details and GTC, Irony ) "But we condemn scamming" ccp If I accept a buyout on my ficticious chachter sale and recieve my isk, it will take generally 24hours at most for the charchter who brought it to expect their charachter safetly in their hands. You can expect CCP to look into the event after petition after what ? 48hours ? (Rofl yeah right, but anyway ) In 2 hours I can completely launder allmost any amount of isk you can give me. Finding it would be a nightmare, And no this isn't anything to do with escrow. So what happens then ? The scammed party gets their isk back. And the scammer walks off scott free to do it again and/or use this isk to purchase GTC's to sell for RL cash..... Ban GTC's Kthxbye. I believe one of you head GM's once said "Real life circumstances should not further in game progression" I guesse you caved in to the $ factor. Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:16:00 - [2] well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:18:00 - [3] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye Why should ppl who have no $$ in RL to play an MMO be able to play? Seriously? Why should you be able to play for free? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Noluck Ned FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:18:00 - [4] When they ban you for tying it can I have your stuff?
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:19:00 - [5] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye I haven't thought of any way around it yet lol But an alternative method of payment to CCP is needed for those of you with no credit cards, I'l agree on that. But whatever it is it SHOULD NOT be allowed to be resold for isk by another customer. Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
without	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:28:00 - [6] i think you are mistaken, EVE character scams are looked into instantly. read some of the scam character sales, the scamed partys say things like meh i got my isk back within 30mins hope the guy gets a ban ect as for finding the transfered moneys, well again if all else fails, look at IP and ban all account that where connected via that ip.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:32:00 - [7] Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 11:32:33 GTC's were not intended to be used for some players to get a free ride, nor for others to make ISK via RL cash. They were simply intended as a means to buy EVE playtime... It really needs to stop... When you buy a GTC, there should be a requirement that you give the email address/account name that is tied into your EVE Online account. And the code will only work for that account... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Irrilian Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:34:00 - [8] ThereÆs no need to come up with complex and time consuming scams with GTCs etc when there is a much more reliable and unfortunately legitimate way to generate $ from Eve. Establish a GTC selling website. Employ teams of sweatshop farmers to grind out ISK 23/7 for a few dollars a day. Buy GTC from players on the forums/in game. Resell GTC via your website. You essentially have a continuous circle of GTC pumping out dollars for some dubious Secondary Market company to get rich off.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:36:00 - [9] Originally by: Irrilian ThereÆs no need to come up with complex and time consuming scams with GTCs etc when there is a much more reliable and unfortunately legitimate way to generate $ from Eve. Establish a GTC selling website. Employ teams of sweatshop farmers to grind out ISK 23/7 for a few dollars a day. Buy GTC from players on the forums/in game. Resell GTC via your website. You essentially have a continuous circle of GTC pumping out dollars for some dubious Secondary Market company to get rich off. That's why when you buy a GTC, the code needs to be generated on the spot for a specific account only... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:36:00 - [10] Originally by: without i think you are mistaken, EVE character scams are looked into instantly. read some of the scam character sales, the scamed partys say things like meh i got my isk back within 30mins hope the guy gets a ban ect as for finding the transfered moneys, well again if all else fails, look at IP and ban all account that where connected via that ip. Do you honestly think 30minutes after handing over your isk you wouldn't believe any reasons/excuses as to why you wouldn't get your charachter till a few hours later ? "Wife has my credit card mate lol, sit tight" etc... And tbh you could Launder the isk in exactly 140seconds... Depending how fast you can click on stuff. And like Bhaal said GTC's are not being used as intended... Far from it. Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:38:00 - [11] I totally agree with you on GTCs, in the same way I did agree with you on GTCs when you made the same point some days ago --
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:42:00 - [12] GTC's be great. The old 3 kids, wife and 10 hour workday guy who can only spend 4 hours a week playing eve and wants action when he does, spends a wee bit of his rl income to buy a gtc and sell it to get isk and be able to enjoy the game up with thoose who can play 23/7 and farm for isk. If you can launder almost any amount of isk in 24 hours then think about the upswing in ebay sales banning gtcs would be, good? no. "Real life circumstances should not further in game progression"-Oh, so the target audience are the unemployed ones cabable of spending loads of hours online every day? What if the target audience is the more casual gamer, not cabable to spend hours and hours playing a video game? Oh yeah I know, we must ban the ones who get unfair advantage over the greater mass due to no time restrictions. Basicly you get my hinted point? Ehm... To go with that GTC's be a great addition, allowing people to enjoy the game by paying iskies for time and adding to the happiness of someone with the rl money no time syndrome. And yet we get abusers, hoarding loads of isk by selling gtcs to bump the economy in their favour. The problem as I see it is not getting the isk, the problem would more be how quickly it can go from 0->10B(made up number(tm)) in your wallet, but restricting this means people will go around it. Onwards... Stopping the gtcs for isk will open up the ebay and in the dark trading. For instance I would happily sell some iskies to a corp/alliance mate for some gatetime on the out of game forums should I need it(I've bought a gtc once because the eta on my money was 6 days :( ) Dont we have something for this already I wonder? Receivable bills ? I've never realy tought about them until now. Something similar anyhow. Sell the character, you get a bill that will be payed out... oh say... 50 hours from the hour of deposit? Hopefully plenty of time to contact CCP and have them cancel the transaction, without laundering. It does not hamper anyone, except the scammers of such important things as gtc/character sales. I know I've probably come of as a loon from all my chit and chatter but the last piece of my writing holds merit in its idea, no?
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye Why should ppl who have no $$ in RL to play an MMO be able to play? Seriously? Why should you be able to play for free? ohh look at me i have **** loads of money i can spent them all on n ( insert random number here ) eve acounts tbh i dont have money to pay for eve i work hard to pay for my studys
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:47:00 - [14] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye Why should ppl who have no $$ in RL to play an MMO be able to play? Seriously? Why should you be able to play for free? ohh look at me i have **** loads of money i can spent them all on n ( insert random number here ) eve acounts tbh i dont have money to pay for eve i work hard to pay for my studys I paid my own way through school as well... Doesn't matter. Fact is GTC's are another way for ppl to take advantage of & exploit EVE Online to make RL $$... All forms of making RL $$ from an MMO needs to be stopped. ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Infinity Ziona Apostasia	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:50:00 - [15] EvE is 50c a day. Anyone who cant afford that cant afford a computer and internet access either. 50c a day cmon. There is NO reason for the GTC crap. Click Me
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn I totally agree with you on GTCs, in the same way I did agree with you on GTCs when you made the same point some days ago If at first no one listens, Shout louder Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
framolia Gallente The Breakfast Club	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:51:00 - [17] Well I cant buy GTC's any other way than with ISK at this moment in time due to restraints with regards to not being allowed any plastic currency. Now if CCP have a deal with some of the gaming outlets in the UK to sell GTC over the counter then I would be able to purchase with no problem. With regards to selling charecters, I did try and sell a ligitimate alt. But it all fell through.
Spiderweb Caldari GENERIC RACE Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.08.29 11:54:00 - [18] if you scam someone with e.g. a trial acc and go buy items from market to give them to someone else , ALL parties involved get a perma ban. theres logs for every move theres no way around it, thats exactly why CCP still lets GTC and characters sales to go through ----------------------------------------------- "Light, in the Darkest of Hours..."
Acronikosz Caldari Solaris Federation	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:13:00 - [19] Edited by: Acronikosz on 29/08/2006 12:13:37 Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Is it me or does CCP really need to rethink their policy surrounding these two issues. And in fact i'd go as far as saying they need to ban the funtion NOW. Well ok maybe not quite that drastic, but close GTC's & Charachter Sales As it stands at this present time the allowing of charchter sales and GTC's is the easiest and most exploitanle system I can actually remember you implenting. All any person in Eve requires in order to iether make a large portion of isk completely risk free, or to make a tidy amount of real life cash again completely risk and effort free is to have a trial account. (Or did CCP make them unable to send/recieve isk ? If so use an account payed for under bogus details and GTC, Irony ) "But we condemn scamming" ccp If I accept a buyout on my ficticious chachter sale and recieve my isk, it will take generally 24hours at most for the charchter who brought it to expect their charachter safetly in their hands. You can expect CCP to look into the event after petition after what ? 48hours ? (Rofl yeah right, but anyway ) In 2 hours I can completely launder allmost any amount of isk you can give me. Finding it would be a nightmare, And no this isn't anything to do with escrow. So what happens then ? The scammed party gets their isk back. And the scammer walks off scott free to do it again and/or use this isk to purchase GTC's to sell for RL cash..... Ban GTC's Kthxbye. I believe one of you head GM's once said "Real life circumstances should not further in game progression" I guesse you caved in to the $ factor. Alliaanna Dude do us all a favour, STOP WHINNING AND SHUT UP FFS, It doesnt affect you so leave GTC how they are ... ban GTC and you ban me !
kbullet Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:15:00 - [20] yeh trial accounts less than 30 days old should not be allowed to post in all forums except General discussion and EVE New Citizens Q&A that may solve the prob banning selling gtc is a nono --- Give me liberty or give me death!
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:18:00 - [21] Originally by: Bhaal Fact is GTC's are another way for ppl to take advantage of & exploit EVE Online to make RL $$... All forms of making RL $$ from an MMO need to be stopped. Yes, punish the many for the crimes of the few!!! Originally by: Avon Originally by: Dark Shikari What single item is larger than a jetcan? My ego?
Alexandra Claw	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye I haven't thought of any way around it yet lol But an alternative method of payment to CCP is needed for those of you with no credit cards, I'l agree on that. Direct Debit (in Europe at least, in US the concept is a bit unknown afaik) Using parents CC (every bank I know throws CCs at me, its hard to avoid them really, some relative would prolly have one) Checks (Traveler's checks) per snail mail to CCP Post Office Transfers Wire Transfers So many options that do not permit RL money infusions.
Zissou	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:22:00 - [23] GTC shouldn't be banned. What should be banned is the ability to buy GTC for isk. At present you have people playing the game in order to buy GTC's (basically playing in order to earn the ability to play more!). You also have people using cash to buy GTC and converting it to isk. Its also possible to make cash by buying GTC for isk and reselling. All 3 of those are simply wrong. GTC should only be able to be purchased using cash and should not be able to be sold for isk.
Vadarr Mann	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Spiderweb if you scam someone with e.g. a trial acc and go buy items from market to give them to someone else , ALL parties involved get a perma ban. theres logs for every move theres no way around it, thats exactly why CCP still lets GTC and characters sales to go through I believe this to not be true, theres a certain scammer, or group of them on the sell order forums who make a number of scam alts all day every day, to claim they are selling timecodes and then scamming people, of course the guy is obviously getting banned every now and then and thats why he makes new alts all the time, but the question is why does he keep doing this? He has been doing this for months, you would think if hes getting no isk out of it he would have stopped a long time ago, he must be successfully laundering that isk to keep at it the way he is.
Will Steel	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:26:00 - [25] ISK 4 GTC is an excellent system for EVE. It keeps players that might, eventually, think twice about putting money towards something that is already time-consuming(therefore costing potential money) every month. Subconciously the math will be done, and a few folks might opt to put the ~150 dollars towards a new BBQ then get back to having a social life. The free game time is brilliant because it makes the little time-eating hobby free thus that particular sort of guilt isn't there to add to cons that are always being weighed in the back of a player's mind. CCP doesn't suffer a loss of a subscription charge, EVE doesn't suffer a loss of a player. It's totally win-win for everyone involved. Of course, there is the issue of real-life cashola having a possibly significant impact on the game. Typically games are perceived as needing to be "fair" to all players so that all compete on even terrain. Luckily, it's not necessary to gather the biggest pile of ISKs to enjoy EVE.
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:27:00 - [26] Edited by: Bill Shankly on 29/08/2006 12:31:20 Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye Why should ppl who have no $$ in RL to play an MMO be able to play? Seriously? Why should you be able to play for free? /Yawn Some people cannot afford to pay for any entertainment after they have paid for bills and children etc, unlike u not all are born with a silver spoon up there arse.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:27:00 - [27] Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 12:29:15 Originally by: w0rmy Originally by: Bhaal Fact is GTC's are another way for ppl to take advantage of & exploit EVE Online to make RL $$... All forms of making RL $$ from an MMO need to be stopped. Yes, punish the many for the crimes of the few!!! Well, sorry if you can't afford something... When I paid my way through school, I certainly was not running around spending $$ on MMO subscriptions... There are plenty of thigs I want in life that I can't afford, that's the way it is... Sorry, but I don't feel anything for those who would have to leave a game, that right now are playing for free... GTC's hurt EVE, if you love the game as much as you say, you'd understand that... Quote: GTC should only be able to be purchased using cash and should not be able to be sold for isk. And the way to do that is by giving your account name & email address when you buy a GTC, and the code is tied to your account, only the buyer may use it... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
oniplE	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:43:00 - [28] lol man, whatever people do with their ISK is non of your business, you dont even have the right to be bothered with it. (talking to the whiners) Apart from that, banning GTC's will put a dent in the playerbase, and CCP will lose income, i don't see how that can ever be a good thing for any of us.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:47:00 - [29] Originally by: Bill Shankly Edited by: Bill Shankly on 29/08/2006 12:34:00 Edited by: Bill Shankly on 29/08/2006 12:31:20 Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye Why should ppl who have no $$ in RL to play an MMO be able to play? Seriously? Why should you be able to play for free? /Yawn Some people cannot afford to pay for any entertainment after they have paid for bills and children etc, unlike u not all are born with a silver spoon up there arse and lots got nothing from muumy and daddy. Silver spoon? Like I said, I paid my way through school (6 years as an auto mechanic while studying to be a Mechanical Engineer) No silver spoon here buddy... Why should you get to play for free? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:49:00 - [30] why should you not get to play for free ?
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:49:00 - [31] Quote: But ofcourse the usual whiney suspects must spout their thought processes yet again so this thread really isn't going anywhere. I wish you could block certain people's posts as you can ingame. You don't have the will power to pass over a post you don't like? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:53:00 - [32] Originally by: Bill Shankly why should you not get to play for free ? It's an MMO, monthly sub, if you can't afford it, you can't play... I'd like a Ford GT, I can't afford one, but I want one, so I should get one for free, because I'm me... Your attitude is a bit off if you can even ask that question and not see a problem with being able to play an MMO for free... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Bael'Zhaeron Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:54:00 - [33] Im sorry but the way i see it is that this removes the isk sales that is going on ebay atleast abit. It generates income for ccp which keeps people employed. When scamming comes into play it should be quite easy to fix for ccp, "just" make a module ingame which one person put in his GTC code and ccp verifies it and the buyer puts in the cash when both agree press accept. Dont need to be any harder then that. Might be able to to a simliar setup for character transfers, in where one makes a down payment for the character and the server only allows the character to be transferd to the person that made the deposit. In this case you dont loose out the entire sum of your money and makes it easier to track the cash. One thing that popps to mind is like in alliance forum dont allow ALT or characters younger then a month (or time that is appropiate) to post a sell order. Yes i know there are people wanting there name kept from the masses but to insure that scams dont occour this maybe a good solution.
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.29 12:59:00 - [34] Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii I believe one of you head GM's once said "Real life circumstances should not further in game progression" I guesse you caved in to the $ factor. Alliaanna Fantastic so we can get rid of Mutlitipule accounts then?. Or ban character transfers as well while we are at its not like you can't take the time to train up a character support the skill buys with a main then sell it for ISK in pararell with a second account you are trading RL cash for ISK as well. Persoanlly I am in the need the GTC cards to play camp at the mo. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:02:00 - [35] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Bill Shankly why should you not get to play for free ? It's an MMO, monthly sub, if you can't afford it, you can't play... I'd like a Ford GT, I can't afford one, but I want one, so I should get one for free, because I'm me... Your attitude is a bit off if you can even ask that question and not see a problem with being able to play an MMO for free... I think your atitudes a bit off to be honest, only a total ******** would begrudge some else getting something for free, Some people CANNOT afford to pay for entertainment as i mentioned before, why should they not have a means of enjoying life ? and the car thing is just stupid a car costs 1000s a GTC sod all.
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:06:00 - [36] Originally by: Bill Shankly Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Bill Shankly why should you not get to play for free ? It's an MMO, monthly sub, if you can't afford it, you can't play... I'd like a Ford GT, I can't afford one, but I want one, so I should get one for free, because I'm me... Your attitude is a bit off if you can even ask that question and not see a problem with being able to play an MMO for free... I think your atitudes a bit off to be honest, only a total ****** would begrudge some else getting something for free, Some people CANNOT afford to pay for entertainment as i mentioned before, why should they not have a means of enjoying life ? and the car thing is just stupid a car costs 1000s a GTC sod all. If someone cant afford the trivial amount of isk for a subscription charge... but CAN spend hours and hours grinding in a game to get free time then prehaps they could consider getting a job instead of using my hard earnt taxes. And to the guys telling me to STFU, and that it doesn't concern me. YES IT DOES, I play this game too morons and GTC's hurt the game ! Alliaanna** DNC Treasure Hunt !!
Caleb Paine Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:08:00 - [37] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: But ofcourse the usual whiney suspects must spout their thought processes yet again so this thread really isn't going anywhere. I wish you could block certain people's posts as you can ingame. You don't have the will power to pass over a post you don't like? Funny, how you are the one that picked up on it... Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:09:00 - [38] Originally by: Bill Shankly Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Bill Shankly why should you not get to play for free ? It's an MMO, monthly sub, if you can't afford it, you can't play... I'd like a Ford GT, I can't afford one, but I want one, so I should get one for free, because I'm me... Your attitude is a bit off if you can even ask that question and not see a problem with being able to play an MMO for free... I think your atitudes a bit off to be honest, only a total ******** would begrudge some else getting something for free, Some people CANNOT afford to pay for entertainment as i mentioned before, why should they not have a means of enjoying life ? and the car thing is just stupid a car costs 1000s a GTC sod all. CCP never intended for ppl to buy GTC's for ISK. That in itself tells you that, you're not supposed to be getting their service for FREE... I'm not begrudging anyone... Something is broken, and it needs to be fixed, that's all... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:13:00 - [39] Originally by: Caleb Paine Originally by: Bhaal Quote: But ofcourse the usual whiney suspects must spout their thought processes yet again so this thread really isn't going anywhere. I wish you could block certain people's posts as you can ingame. You don't have the will power to pass over a post you don't like? Funny, how you are the one that picked up on it... I pass over many, but I also look for posts that I don't like so I can argue... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
mogwai Gallente BlackSun Enterprises Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:17:00 - [40] Originally by: Infinity Ziona EvE is 50c a day. Anyone who cant afford that cant afford a computer and internet access either. 50c a day cmon. There is NO reason for the GTC crap. I earn a decent amount irl but got hit badly with some 'unexpected bills', hence i went to gtc's. I know alot of ppl in the u.k in the same situation as me where playing eve via gtc is the best option. Look at it like this... eve paid by visa = ú30 p/month (3 accounts) internet access = ú17 p/month few beers for weekends = ú20 p/month total = 'roughly' ú67 per month (u.k prices) or, eve paid by gtc = FREE (apart from an enjoyable time playing the game i love earning isk) internet access = ú17 p/month few beers = ú20 p/month total = ú37 The spare ú30 a month instantly gets put to paying rl debts. Lose the gtc's from eve, you'll find ccp will lose a fair few accounts. I know of at least 40+ accounts running gtc's and that just in the circle of friends ingame.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:21:00 - [41] Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 13:25:46 Quote: Lose the gtc's from eve, you'll find ccp will lose a fair few accounts. I know of at least 40+ accounts running gtc's and that just in the circle of friends ingame. And I find that to be quite a problem, and would think CCP would as well. However, maybe they don't, as they are allowing it to continue... I just hope the next MMO I get addicted to, does not allow this. Maybe I'll play some stocks, and the $$ I make off of that I'll use to buy GTC's and buy a ****load of ISK... When GTC's for ISK were first deemed acceptable, I bought a few & sold them, made a Freighter alt, bought a Freighter, and now make billions with him in empire... How fair is that to the EVE community? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
mogwai Gallente BlackSun Enterprises Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:28:00 - [42] Originally by: Bhaal However, maybe they don't, as they are allowing it to continue... Dont get me wrong tho, i dont agree with long term usage of gtc's to pay for accounts, but for ppl with a small income of rl cash issues, they are a godsend tbh. Maybe if ccp implemented something like 'only X amount of timecards could be used on each account per annum' would give ppl like me the chance to pay the rl bills AND still get to enjoy eve. But while ccp are recieving the rl cash for the gtc's at source, you will never find an easy fix to it anyway.
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 13:25:46 Quote: Lose the gtc's from eve, you'll find ccp will lose a fair few accounts. I know of at least 40+ accounts running gtc's and that just in the circle of friends ingame. When GTC's for ISK were first deemed acceptable, I bought a few & sold them, made a Freighter alt, bought a Freighter, and now make billions with him in empire... How fair is that to the EVE community? people that pay for there account with CC also do that, how is that any different ?
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:31:00 - [44] Originally by: Bill Shankly Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 13:25:46 Quote: Lose the gtc's from eve, you'll find ccp will lose a fair few accounts. I know of at least 40+ accounts running gtc's and that just in the circle of friends ingame. When GTC's for ISK were first deemed acceptable, I bought a few & sold them, made a Freighter alt, bought a Freighter, and now make billions with him in empire... How fair is that to the EVE community? people that pay for there account with CC also do that, how is that any different ? Do you honestly need that explaining too you Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:33:00 - [45] Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 13:33:19 Originally by: Bill Shankly Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 13:25:46 Quote: Lose the gtc's from eve, you'll find ccp will lose a fair few accounts. I know of at least 40+ accounts running gtc's and that just in the circle of friends ingame. When GTC's for ISK were first deemed acceptable, I bought a few & sold them, made a Freighter alt, bought a Freighter, and now make billions with him in empire... How fair is that to the EVE community? people that pay for there account with CC also do that, how is that any different ? Yeah, but they play the game, work towards the ISK to buy the Freighter, build up the capital to trade large quantities of T2 items, etc... That's certainly different than going to shattered crystal, getting a few GTC's, spending a few minutes on the sell orders forum with an alt, bingo, 1 bill ISK, after NO WORK in game, only using RL $$ to make it happen... Hey, if that is deemed acceptable, fine... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:38:00 - [46] Being a businessman, I still scratch my head at the concept of GTCs. The purpose of any business venture is to make a profit, and GTCs seem to be some sort of marketing ploy. CCP employees are not paid in ISK, and players that use ISK to play do not contribute to the flow of cash. In fact, they are using resources without paying for them. They log on and play, using system resources. They file petitions, using human resources. And so on. You could even say that such players are motivated to use up resources at an even greater rate to be able to sustain their "playing rights". So, business-wise, GTCs seem to be intended to provide greater accessibility by alternative payment methods, to provide more paying subscribers. It is not a social service to freely provide gaming privileges for anyone. That is why ISK for GTCs seems wrong to me, it is not their intended use. /flame suit on -
mogwai Gallente BlackSun Enterprises Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:45:00 - [47] Edited by: mogwai on 29/08/2006 13:45:39 Originally by: Andargor theWise Being a businessman, I still scratch my head at the concept of GTCs. The purpose of any business venture is to make a profit, and GTCs seem to be some sort of marketing ploy. /flame suit on i think you misunderstand the gtc's... what happens is that person A buys a gtc from ccp for rl cash, person B buys that gtc from person A for isk. CCP still get thier rl cash.
Kalaan Oratay The Imperial Commonwealth	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:47:00 - [48] Tying a store bought GTC to a specific account sounds like a good idea tbh. You shouldnt be able to buy yourself ahead in this game (or any game) --- Originally by: Archilies Ignore what others say: Fit what you want, with what you have, whenever you want.
Andargor theWise Disbelievers of Fate	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:50:00 - [49] Originally by: mogwai Edited by: mogwai on 29/08/2006 13:45:39 Originally by: Andargor theWise Being a businessman, I still scratch my head at the concept of GTCs. The purpose of any business venture is to make a profit, and GTCs seem to be some sort of marketing ploy. /flame suit on i think you misunderstand the gtc's... what happens is that person A buys a gtc from ccp for rl cash, person B buys that gtc from person A for isk. CCP still get thier rl cash. Hmm. True. They are however not getting any additional subscribers, just people selling more GTCs. In the end, its the same amount of cash, but not viable in the long term. And self-fueling. I just don't see the advantage to CCP in having what amounts to subscription brokers. -
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:52:00 - [50] Originally by: mogwai Edited by: mogwai on 29/08/2006 13:45:39 Originally by: Andargor theWise Being a businessman, I still scratch my head at the concept of GTCs. The purpose of any business venture is to make a profit, and GTCs seem to be some sort of marketing ploy. /flame suit on i think you misunderstand the gtc's... what happens is that person A buys a gtc from ccp for rl cash, person B buys that gtc from person A for isk. CCP still get thier rl cash. I think it's just breeding the wrong kind of attitude towards this MMO... I'm against buying GTC's to get ISK in-game, I've done it, it felt very wrong... It's a temptation that can be hard to resist. I can work 5 hours OT every week and turn that into 2 bill ISK, every week! Hell, it's easier for me to make the ISK that way than 5 hours in-game... It's also getting a lot of players used to playing for ISK... I think that's bad for those players when all of a sudden things change and GTC's for ISK is no longer an option... It just smells bad, and you know you're doing something bad when you use GTC's in this manner, I know I did... It makes you feel very guilty... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
St Dragon Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:54:00 - [51] Personally i like the idea of being able to buy my eve time with isk. ----------------------------------------------- "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 13:58:00 - [52] Originally by: St Dragon Personally i like the idea of being able to buy my eve time with isk. Hell, working a bit of OT so I can make some billions of ISK so that when I log on I can spend the ISK and never have to earn any in-game sounds nice too huh? Doesn't make it right... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.08.29 14:11:00 - [53] And it only makes it wrong if, like you, you choose to keep making a point of it, im personally glad its irratating you.
Will Steel	Posted - 2006.08.29 14:12:00 - [54] Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: mogwai Edited by: mogwai on 29/08/2006 13:45:39 Originally by: Andargor theWise Being a businessman, I still scratch my head at the concept of GTCs. The purpose of any business venture is to make a profit, and GTCs seem to be some sort of marketing ploy. /flame suit on i think you misunderstand the gtc's... what happens is that person A buys a gtc from ccp for rl cash, person B buys that gtc from person A for isk. CCP still get thier rl cash. Hmm. True. They are however not getting any additional subscribers, just people selling more GTCs. In the end, its the same amount of cash, but not viable in the long term. And self-fueling. I just don't see the advantage to CCP in having what amounts to subscription brokers. The advantage is that the cost of playing is better distributed amongst the masses(if player A cannot afford to play, then he/she will trade game resource X to player B for more game time). Thus more people are able to play. Thus CCP recieves a greater income. EVE growth = CCP growth = player base happiness increase (in a perfect world devoid of system bugs)
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 14:16:00 - [55] Originally by: Bill Shankly And it only makes it wrong if, like you, you choose to keep making a point of it, im personally glad its irratating you. So robbing a bank is ONLY wrong if you keep making a point of it? If you keep quiet, it's ok? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.08.29 14:20:00 - [56] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Bill Shankly And it only makes it wrong if, like you, you choose to keep making a point of it, im personally glad its irratating you. So robbing a bank is ONLY wrong if you keep making a point of it? If you keep quiet, it's ok? ofc not, is making a few isk on a game the same as robbing a bank ? The majority of people DONT do that anyway, why punish those that NEED to use GTC when its only a few scammers that actually take advantage of it ?
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 14:25:00 - [57] Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 14:26:27 Originally by: Bill Shankly Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Bill Shankly And it only makes it wrong if, like you, you choose to keep making a point of it, im personally glad its irratating you. So robbing a bank is ONLY wrong if you keep making a point of it? If you keep quiet, it's ok? ofc not, is making a few isk on a game the same as robbing a bank ? The majority of people DONT do that anyway, why punish those that NEED to use GTC when its only a few scammers that actually take advantage of it ? Wait, so you're saying that making ISK from RL cash is scamming, but buying game time for ISK is not? Who do you think you buy the GTC's from? Taking advantage of it means making the ISK with no in-game effort, or playing for free... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Jags Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 14:26:00 - [58] GTC should be banned ,simple as that. SO easy to exploit the system and make RL cash out of a game its a nonsense. Sell stuff in game for ISK , buy GTC for ISK from seller , sell GTC code on Ebay = easy cash. Or - buy GTC with fraudulent credit card , sell GTC for ISK , buy one from another reseller , sell GTC code on ebay = cash and money successfully laundered. Not difficult to work out why this is ****ing a lot of players off is it ? Can guarantee that this is being used by "farmers" to generate an untraceable way to turn ISK into cash. Im sure CCP never intended it to work this way and will block it when they can find a suitable replacement for it. I agree with Bhaal in that GTC should be sold to a specific account only. CCP should sell directly IMO and cut out the middle man.
Annya Avishnaya Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.08.29 14:30:00 - [59] Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii I believe one of you head GM's once said "Real life circumstances should not further in game progression" I guesse you caved in to the $ factor. Alliaanna Fantastic so we can get rid of Mutlitipule accounts then?. Or ban character transfers as well while we are at its not like you can't take the time to train up a character support the skill buys with a main then sell it for ISK in pararell with a second account you are trading RL cash for ISK as well. Persoanlly I am in the need the GTC cards to play camp at the mo. QFT! I love how people ignored this post. "Real life circumstances should not further in game progression" Now how many people have hauler alts for their mining characters, or have a freighter alt to afk-make-iskies all day. Why should a 3 year old character with a 3 year old alt be able to sell that alt for 20$ RL cash and gain a couple billion iskies, but people can't sell a GTC to get a quick buck if they need it? If you want to ban ways to stop this statement: "Real life circumstances should not further in game progression" then you'd better damn well ban every way of allowing that to happen, including character trades, GTC's, and multiple accounts. Originally by: Joshua Foiritain The people you dont trust arent the ones you should worry about.
Khemul	Posted - 2006.08.29 14:32:00 - [60] It would seem the general arguement against GTC comes down to "I don't like that I pay and others don't." Seems a bit selfish honestly. So because you don't use GTCs no one else should. Some people might have trouble paying the monthly fee for whatever reason. Just because you can afford it doesn't mean you should condemn these people. Eliminating GTCs will do nothing to ISK selling or scamming. Just because a few people abuse the system doesn't mean it should be eliminated otherwise we'd eliminate half the game. People abuse can-flagging, should we eliminate it? People abuse the insurance system to gank haulers in high-sec, should we eliminate fighting in high-sec? People abuse escrow, should we eliminate escrow? People abuse bookmarks.....well nevermind there. Come up with a reason GTCs actually hurt the game, then argue rather than saying "I don't like it!" or "It can be exploited!". I don't like mining...doesn't mean I'm gonna call for it's ban from the game.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 14:36:00 - [61] Originally by: Khemul It would seem the general arguement against GTC comes down to "I don't like that I pay and others don't." Seems a bit selfish honestly. So because you don't use GTCs no one else should. Some people might have trouble paying the monthly fee for whatever reason. Just because you can afford it doesn't mean you should condemn these people. Eliminating GTCs will do nothing to ISK selling or scamming. Just because a few people abuse the system doesn't mean it should be eliminated otherwise we'd eliminate half the game. People abuse can-flagging, should we eliminate it? People abuse the insurance system to gank haulers in high-sec, should we eliminate fighting in high-sec? People abuse escrow, should we eliminate escrow? People abuse bookmarks.....well nevermind there. Come up with a reason GTCs actually hurt the game, then argue rather than saying "I don't like it!" or "It can be exploited!". I don't like mining...doesn't mean I'm gonna call for it's ban from the game. Well, if you can't agree that me working OT to get 2 bill a week is not in the spirit of an MMO, then forget it, you'll never understand... The whole thing stinks, from ppl getting ahead in-game due to real life wealth to ppl playing for free. Oh yeah, and to top it off, the farmers still making RL $$ from the game by selling GTC's... Why the hell leave an avenue open for ppl to do that? None of it is in the spirit of the damn game! ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
DGWabbit	Posted - 2006.08.29 14:36:00 - [62] this may be long, which i apologize for, but it has good points imo This is my second MMO, the last one I played was horribly over-run by macro-farmers that completely destroyed the market. It got the point where unless you were incredibly smart at economics, you almost had to buy the in-game money they farmed off their websites especially if you were a complete newbie. However, the whole buying of in-game monies was frowned upon but not completely enforced at all. Now those macro-farmers managed to destroy the market in that game because they horded npc's and every npc dropped 'money' so it just caused inflation on a mass scale. Dont get that mixed what what CCP is doing regarding GTC's. GTC's are bought using isk yes, but they are bought through the use of actual players making their own isk. If you read the GTC sales on the forum, which are authorized by CCP, then you'll see its normal ppl like you and I selling to normal ppl like you and I. There are no macro-farmers buying and selling GTC's from what I see. Granted they could be there, but another thing I notice is that CCP is actually working against macro-farmers, remember the whole relocation of empire ice? So its not isk being farmed on a mass-scale and circulated back into the market, its Isk that'd be in the market regardless. When I started playing this game I was highly impressed with the how stable the market is for a game thats been around for 4-ish years. I also read previous topics that showed that this game was actually facing a macro-farming problem, where there had been similar off-site sales of in-game monies where they were generating isk out of npc sales, but that GTC's actually crashed their out-of-game money market to the point where they left. If anything it seems GTC's saved Eve from turning into the other MMO's that are overrun with that problem. As for GTC's, in a round about way someone is simply paying for another persons account to be active. The isk is already there, its already on the market, no inflation or anything, CCP gets paid for one active account. If you're going to bring Tech 2 items into this arguement, be aware that the T2 BPO's are limited and dried out from the research agents according to other topics I've read up on, so unless more are seeded there I dont see those prices coming down much. Simple supply and demand there, primarily due to a lack of supply even in the player driven market hubs. Although I've never bought any GTC's with RL $ or Isk, I can see where they are the best deterant against macro-farmers and off-site isk sales. They are protecting the in-game market instead of hurting it. People also have valid reasons for doing those sales as well. Not everyone has enough RL time to grind their own isk, a lot have limited play times and a RL to attend to. If you're gonna sit here and argue that thats not fair and that they should quit, you should look at your own situation first. This is a game people, its meant to be fun and entertaining. It's meant to be something you do to blow off steam or relax yourself, not a way of life. This game is also catered to people who cant play 23/7, I say that because you can train offline and keep up with the rest of the game world. GTC's are the balance to people who are forced to play that way. I dont spend nearly the amount of time in-game as I did my last, but I can keep up and actually outpace people in skill points. You can argue that thats not fair, but I have a RL I have to take care of first. In reality, its almost the same arguement with people using GTC's. Alrighty, Im done. Thanks for reading and hope it was somewhat insightful. -Wabbs /)/)
DuckM4n Vo	Posted - 2006.08.29 16:13:00 - [63] Edited by: DuckM4n Vo on 29/08/2006 16:14:45 For the last time, GTCs accounts are not free accounts, someone else pays the money for you in return for the isk, its more of a trade. If CCP sells them directly for isk, then CCP would lose out. Current system, CCP always gets the money for GTCs.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 16:19:00 - [64] Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 16:20:55 Originally by: DuckM4n Vo Edited by: DuckM4n Vo on 29/08/2006 16:14:45 For the last time, GTCs accounts are not free accounts, someone else pays the money for you in return for the isk, its more of a trade. If CCP sells them directly for isk, then CCP would lose out. Current system, CCP always gets the money for GTCs. I never said nor implied that. CCP will still get the $$ if the GTC's are sold, by any reseller who chooses to do so, but the buyer must provide an account name & email address to lock that code into usage on his/her account only... CCP still makes $$ from GTC's this way, and now they cannot be scammed back to RL $$ by ISK farmers... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.08.29 16:19:00 - [65] And here comes the cavalry. Bloody **s Down with gtcs. Originally by:** Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.08.29 16:23:00 - [66] As said earlier about "real life vs in game shouldnt apply" Then we ban second accounts, ban third accounts and so on, because frankly, thoose are bought with rl wealth and gives an ingame advantage due to rl situation. People buying gtcs and selling them on ebay/own sites for lower than shopprices to make money should be spanked however. But then, banning gtcs wont have any effect on this because then it all gets very shady business, ccp gains nothing as people buy iskies from a third party. But it is the scammers we should deal with.
Khemul Zula Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.08.29 16:24:00 - [67] Sure that is a problem. But what you are suggesting is to eliminate the entire system because some people abuse it. There are plenty of things in the game that can be abused. I'd personally like to see the abuse of GTC stopped...but not at the cost of stopping all the people who use them fairly from having access to them. (there the right character ;p) "Everytime you mine Veldspar God kills a kitten."
Tammarr	Posted - 2006.08.29 16:46:00 - [68] Bhaal is onto something here with buying a gtc and locking it to an account. Make it "Charactername" instead of "Accountname". You still get the lock to account(TabelofCharacters.AccountID) just dont have to giveout your account name. Then ofc we need a mechanic that allows us to set a delayed payout to a character. If I dont get a gtc then I petition the sob and my money gets back to me while the seller can rest assured that the money will appear on his account if he delivers the gtc(which is bought and locked to the buyers account, could even add more control to it:30D GTC Buyer X Seller Y(or for personal use just Buyer X Seller -) to make it easy to check if Character Y actually have bought a gtc for X or not, if not then its a scam and the money reverts to X without ever touching Y's wallet and are thus incabable of being laundered) Something along thoose lines should make it very effecient, disallow making money on buying gtc and selling for $$ while still allowing thoose playing by gtc the ability to do so.
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.08.29 16:47:00 - [69] Originally by: Khemul Zula Sure that is a problem. But what you are suggesting is to eliminate the entire system because some people abuse it. There are plenty of things in the game that can be abused. I'd personally like to see the abuse of GTC stopped...but not at the cost of stopping all the people who use them fairly from having access to them. (there the right character ;p) What entire system? It was introduced not so long ago only because they couldn't handle ebay isk sellers. Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 16:49:00 - [70] Originally by: Tammarr Bhaal is onto something here with buying a gtc and locking it to an account. Make it "Charactername" instead of "Accountname". You still get the lock to account(TabelofCharacters.AccountID) just dont have to giveout your account name. Then ofc we need a mechanic that allows us to set a delayed payout to a character. If I dont get a gtc then I petition the sob and my money gets back to me while the seller can rest assured that the money will appear on his account if he delivers the gtc(which is bought and locked to the buyers account, could even add more control to it:30D GTC Buyer X Seller Y(or for personal use just Buyer X Seller -) to make it easy to check if Character Y actually have bought a gtc for X or not, if not then its a scam and the money reverts to X without ever touching Y's wallet and are thus incabable of being laundered) Something along thoose lines should make it very effecient, disallow making money on buying gtc and selling for $$ while still allowing thoose playing by gtc the ability to do so. LOL, you butchered my idea... GTC selling for $$ on eBay is just as bad as me using RL cash to make 2 bill/week in-game for not even loggin in... You have to solve the entire problem, not just part of it... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Vito Parabellum Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.08.29 16:56:00 - [71] DGWabbit said it best, try to disseminate that instead. If someone wants to work overtime to buy make-believe money, work overtime baby! Gotta dislike when people say "CCP didnt intend.. <insert bs here>" that pops up every second whine post. Specially in this case when GTC sales are publicly endorsed O_o And for emphasis: ISKs are not being made, just a simple transfer between player A and B, that you dont have anything to do with. And, yes CCP would lose real money if they disallowed it as it would make a lot of people, probably more than you think, stop playing and thus (indirectly) paying. Try asking them what percentage use GTC for their subscription. I like lots of people online and I prefer that CCP has plenty of money to throw at problems.
Joskken Inx J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2006.08.29 17:35:00 - [72] I made a topic in the Sell Forum that illustrates just how bad it's become. These disposable trial alts just keep coming, and sadly people keep feeding them. There is another MMO that uses RL money for in-game currency called Project Entropia. Sadly, that is the worst example of buying your way to the top, because that game is all about how much money you deposit, what gear you buy, and how good you maintain it. Yeah, it's billed as free but you won't get anywhere without putting money in. Trust me on that, I made the mistake of putting more than I care to admit in there. It's a fine line being walked here by Eve; you want players to be able to enjoy the game, and paying for playtime in the absence of having a credit card is a huge plus for me. But there are just as many cons to go with the pros in this argument. I'd rather side with what makes the player enjoy the game overall, and enforce those who abuse the system in a more iron-fisted approach. I don't think CCP does IP bans, either that or there really are more and more jerkwads scamming ISK left and right via GTCs. I'm really hoping it's just a small group of the same guys.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.29 17:38:00 - [73] RMT happens. Now, you can pretend that banning GTC sales will stop it, but self delusion is not the best approach to this issue. Ultimately the problem with RMT is the creation of $$ from in-game currency sales, because it encourages 'farmers' to join the game to earn a living. 'Farmers' cheapen the game enviroment, and make 'legitimate' gameplay more difficult (eg, mineral devaluation in Eve, or complex farming). So, how do we resolve the supply & demand situation? You will not get rid of demand for the purchasing of ISK for $$. Lots of players, in pretty much every MMOG, want to be able to shortcut 'the grind', which in Eve is making ISK. They have neither the available time, or maybe even the know-how to make lots of ISK, but they do have a few free $$ to burn. In a classical RMT situation, those players would give $$ to farmers in exchange for goods / game-money. The buyers are happy, but encourage the sellers, ultimately hurting the game. The GTC system would be a vast improvement, but for one major flaw. Let us look first at the advantages of the GTC situation. It allows players to somwhat level the differences between casual and powergamers. It is important to note that the skill training dynamic is already designed to minimise these differences. The money they spent goes to CCP, not to the ISK 'seller' (This is where the major flaw shows up, I will address it soon). The exchange is gametime for ISK, not $$ for ISK (see above caveat). It is no different than having a second account. A player could take a second subscription to earn ISK faster, or may choose to use that money to help another player who has more time, but less money. The problem, however, is the sale of ISK bought GTC's for $$. This needs to be stopped so the advantages of the GTC trade can remain, but without encouraging farmers. Once a GTC is bought, only the purchaser should be able to use it .. BUT, he should be able to apply that game-time to any player he chooses. This stops the reverse GTC RMT problem. There will still undoubtedly be a RMT side-trade for ISK on 3rd party sites, but with a 'legitimate' path in place there would be no excuse for using it. In such a situation, the penalty for anyone caught selling OR buying ISK from a 3rd party site could carry the harshest possible penalties, with no fear of alienating subscribers. Personally I don't like RMT, but there is no point pretending is doesn't happen, or it will just stop if GTCs are removed. I can live with the thought of people using $$ to get some ISK, but ISK for $$ is a very different story. That is the part of RMT which destroys games. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 17:43:00 - [74] Quote: I can live with the thought of people using $$ to get some ISK, but ISK for $$ is a very different story. That is the part of RMT which destroys games. I don't see how DEV's who create an MMO can live with it tbh... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.29 17:47:00 - [75] Originally by: Bhaal Well, if you can't agree that me working OT to get 2 bill a week is not in the spirit of an MMO, then forget it, you'll never understand... So you work overtime at your job and buy isk with the money OR you work "overtime" in eve for the same affect. I don't see the problem. Quote: The whole thing stinks, from ppl getting ahead in-game due to real life wealth to ppl playing for free. Oh yeah, and to top it off, the farmers still making RL $$ from the game by selling GTC's... Money doesn't "get you ahead" in eve. It only lets to play within your skill points. Do you also consider unfair that some people are smart and therefore make better use of ingame time and get more isk for it? Also, Farmers don't need GTCs to make money. Quote: Why the hell leave an avenue open for ppl to do that? Do you like being able to trade isk for items? Give isk to another player, or sell items on the market/escrow? Because those are all the avenue it takes for farmers to make RMT work. Seriously, they don't need GTCs, GTCs just set the exchange rate (rather low too, which is good for everyone but the farmers) Quote: None of it is in the spirit of the damn game! Are we to leave it to you to define the spirit of the game? Hard work in game pays off in game. Hard work out of the game allows you to cut out the grind in game. I don't see the problem. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.29 17:47:00 - [76] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: I can live with the thought of people using $$ to get some ISK, but ISK for $$ is a very different story. That is the part of RMT which destroys games. I don't see how DEV's who create an MMO can live with it tbh... They don't really have a choice. It happens. Best thing they can do is damage limitation. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.08.29 17:47:00 - [77] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye Do you really mean "ban gtc" or "ban selling GTCs for isk"? If you mean the latter, this can simply be removed by paying for game time with isk directly, e.g. on the CCP website or in-game. There's no need to use a (transferable) GTC for accomplish this. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 17:56:00 - [78] Quote: Hard work in game pays off in game. Hard work out of the game allows you to cut out the grind in game. I don't see the problem. That's bull****, go back in time 3 years and tell that to the DEV's, they would have told you the same, and I bet most of them still feel that way... The ONLY RL cash that should have anything to do with an MMO is for paying the sub, that's it... Even some of you here who now find it acceptible, would not have just a couple years ago... Tie the GTC to one account at purchase and be done with it... Then fight the farmers and MM's another way... If CCP's not up for that fight, then I guess the status quo stays... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Night Haunter Caldari SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.29 18:13:00 - [79] IMO GTC's should be left alone. If someone is to get rich in real life from these how much time + GTCs would have to be sold? If 1 GTC goes for 12 USD, you would have to sell 100 GTCs to make 1200$, and at 120m isk each,(30 day cards) that's 12 billion isk. Yes you can get macro miners etc, but how much does macro mining veld in jita make? A more sensible way to handle this problem is to take expensive ores out of 0.5+ to cut down on macroers (this includes ice). Make it be a risk if they wanna make money, not army of macroers in 0.5 afk mining omber risk free. Pathetic. Instead of taking out a viable way of payment, just take out the expensive ores in high sec. I know this will be flamed, so before you go forum warrior on me, think about it this way, hit the macroers where it hurts, make them need protection.
Alessar Kaldorei Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.29 20:09:00 - [80] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Hard work in game pays off in game. Hard work out of the game allows you to cut out the grind in game. I don't see the problem. That's bull****, go back in time 3 years and tell that to the DEV's, they would have told you the same, and I bet most of them still feel that way... The ONLY RL cash that should have anything to do with an MMO is for paying the sub, that's it... Even some of you here who now find it acceptible, would not have just a couple years ago... Tie the GTC to one account at purchase and be done with it... Then fight the farmers and MM's another way... If CCP's not up for that fight, then I guess the status quo stays... So, out of curiosity, how do you feel about multiple accounts for a single person? Should that be banned too?
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 20:35:00 - [81] Originally by: Alessar Kaldorei Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Hard work in game pays off in game. Hard work out of the game allows you to cut out the grind in game. I don't see the problem. That's bull****, go back in time 3 years and tell that to the DEV's, they would have told you the same, and I bet most of them still feel that way... The ONLY RL cash that should have anything to do with an MMO is for paying the sub, that's it... Even some of you here who now find it acceptible, would not have just a couple years ago... Tie the GTC to one account at purchase and be done with it... Then fight the farmers and MM's another way... If CCP's not up for that fight, then I guess the status quo stays... So, out of curiosity, how do you feel about multiple accounts for a single person? Should that be banned too? Nope, I have 4 accounts... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.29 20:47:00 - [82] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Hard work in game pays off in game. Hard work out of the game allows you to cut out the grind in game. I don't see the problem. That's bull**, go back in time 3 years and tell that to the DEV's, they would have told you the same, and I bet most of them still feel that way... The ONLY RL cash that should have anything to do with an MMO is for paying the sub, that's it... Even some of you here who now find it acceptible, would not have just a couple years ago... Tie the GTC to one account at purchase and be done with it... Then fight the farmers and MM's another way... If CCP's not up for that fight, then I guess the status quo stays... RMT doesn't exist because people get rich off it. RMT exists because spending 5 hours a day 7 days a week mining so you can afford that new BS is a pain in the ass, and many people will pay good money to avoid a pain in the ass. RMT has been a part of every MMO since MMO's started. Not because some farmer guy is making a living on it. But because some worker guy has more money than spare time. I don't personally endorse RMT. And I won't be using it. But I don't have an issue with people that do. As long as the game world isn't majorly affected by it. And to date, no one has shown that eve is being affected by GTC sales. Whiny forum ***s withstanding. RMT is a fact of life in online gaming. You'd do well to realise that eve is one of the best at controlling it because we have GTCs. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 21:05:00 - [83] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Hard work in game pays off in game. Hard work out of the game allows you to cut out the grind in game. I don't see the problem. That's bull**, go back in time 3 years and tell that to the DEV's, they would have told you the same, and I bet most of them still feel that way... The ONLY RL cash that should have anything to do with an MMO is for paying the sub, that's it... Even some of you here who now find it acceptible, would not have just a couple years ago... Tie the GTC to one account at purchase and be done with it... Then fight the farmers and MM's another way... If CCP's not up for that fight, then I guess the status quo stays... RMT doesn't exist because people get rich off it. RMT exists because spending 5 hours a day 7 days a week mining so you can afford that new BS is a pain in the ass, and many people will pay good money to avoid a pain in the ass. RMT has been a part of every MMO since MMO's started. Not because some farmer guy is making a living on it. But because some worker guy has more money than spare time. I don't personally endorse RMT. And I won't be using it. But I don't have an issue with people that do. As long as the game world isn't majorly affected by it. And to date, no one has shown that eve is being affected by GTC sales. Whiny forum ***s withstanding. RMT is a fact of life in online gaming. You'd do well to realise that eve is one of the best at controlling it because we have GTCs. Well, I can't accept that it will ALWAYS be a part of MMO's, hopefully someday, someone... What I do know is becasue of RMT, the mining profession has suffered for those who like to make a living from it... My empire alt buys ORE & ICE ORE in empire and with his perfect refine skills sells the mins where most profitable... I just can't help but think the guys I buy 10,000 ice cubes from every sunday do this without MM'ing or farming. They totally undercut the hell out of anyone making a living out of mining, cause all that matters to them is using the ISK to aquire GTC's and then sell on eBay, etc... They do adversly affect the market, players, and game on the whole... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Gibri Gallente Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.08.29 21:15:00 - [84] i remember when the gm's made those stickys, "buying isk on ebay is cheating, and will get you banned" sad indead this stupid gtc crap, its a ******* game, i find people who sell gtc's to make isk in this game to be sad people, and just a bunch of cheaters. And no, you cant have my stuff, ive given it to some cheaters.
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.29 21:18:00 - [85] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Alessar Kaldorei Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Hard work in game pays off in game. Hard work out of the game allows you to cut out the grind in game. I don't see the problem. That's bull**, go back in time 3 years and tell that to the DEV's, they would have told you the same, and I bet most of them still feel that way... The ONLY RL cash that should have anything to do with an MMO is for paying the sub, that's it... Even some of you here who now find it acceptible, would not have just a couple years ago... Tie the GTC to one account at purchase and be done with it... Then fight the farmers and MM's another way... If CCP's not up for that fight, then I guess the status quo stays... So, out of curiosity, how do you feel about multiple accounts for a single person? Should that be banned too? Nope, I have 4 accounts... "Cough" using real life money to gain a advantage that way is ok though right? Training up a character for sale for ISK on one of those 4 accounts is probably ok by you as well...well what doe you know Bhaal uses real life cash for a advantage... Whos using bull** now Bhaal? ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Kraven Kor Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.29 21:38:00 - [86] As much as some of my buddies will hate this (I know some folks that play with GTC's bought for isk) -- I think it is also time for the GTC-to-Isk trick to be hit with ze hammer. It is not fair that folks willing to waste, er, spend real life isk get to have better crap than those who can only afford the monthly payment by buying a GTC and reselling it for isk. Especially given the fact that it is not possible to stop all the farming / isk-selling already going on. At least if CCP does not provide a $$$-to-Isk scheme on their own website, it makes it a bit more difficult -- and risky -- to use real life money to buy in-game money here in EVE. I can't see any real harm in the "pay to play in isk" deal, but it would almost have to be nerfed if they nerf the GTC-to-Isk problem. Strength through Unity, Discipline, and Honor!
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.08.29 21:45:00 - [87] Edited by: Lazuran on 29/08/2006 21:45:44 Originally by: Kraven Kor As much as some of my buddies will hate this (I know some folks that play with GTC's bought for isk) -- I think it is also time for the GTC-to-Isk trick to be hit with ze hammer. It won't happen, GTC-to-ISK means a lot of extra income for CCP since it's nothing more than an indirect way of selling ISK to players for cash. "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 21:49:00 - [88] Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Alessar Kaldorei Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Hard work in game pays off in game. Hard work out of the game allows you to cut out the grind in game. I don't see the problem. That's bull**, go back in time 3 years and tell that to the DEV's, they would have told you the same, and I bet most of them still feel that way... The ONLY RL cash that should have anything to do with an MMO is for paying the sub, that's it... Even some of you here who now find it acceptible, would not have just a couple years ago... Tie the GTC to one account at purchase and be done with it... Then fight the farmers and MM's another way... If CCP's not up for that fight, then I guess the status quo stays... So, out of curiosity, how do you feel about multiple accounts for a single person? Should that be banned too? Nope, I have 4 accounts... "Cough" using real life money to gain a advantage that way is ok though right? Training up a character for sale for ISK on one of those 4 accounts is probably ok by you as well...well what doe you know Bhaal uses real life cash for a advantage... Whos using bull now Bhaal? The DEV's never said buying more than one account was cheating... I have many different types of specialized charcters training, as I like to do almost all of what EVE has to offer... Paying for extra subs is certainly not the same thing as simply buying ISK... Far from it... I don't think having multiple accounts and using them to work your way through EVE is bull**, you're still working towards something, and not just buying it... And no, I have never sold any characters for ISK. I gave one away for free, but did not accept anything in return for him... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.29 21:56:00 - [89] Now some compare ppl who have multiple accounts to those who are buying ISK with RL $$ or vice versa Using multiple accounts allows you to progress in game faster, that's true. But you are still bound by in-game mechanics. It all remains in the closed system, called Eve. Is it a fair play? Well, most likely it's not, but at least it's all done by in-game means. If we look at GTCs and that ISK->GTC->$$$ thing, it's the staff that's killing games. 1-st of all we have ppl who can't stop and think at least for a while about how to make enough ISK in game, to support all the "fun staff". They have too much $$$ and instead of simply playing the game they probably think that if they are rich in RL, that simply MUST bring them uberness in Eve. 2-nd we have those who can't afford $15 per month and still think they have to play for free. Getting a job, btw, usually makes $15 per month a negligent amount of money. But if you really can't afford this (although it's strange as in order to play Eve you also need a decent PC and a broadband, which usually cost more), then tough luck. There's a lot of things in the world we can't afford. 3-rd and those are the worst. They play the game to make a living off it, virtually killing the game for everyone else. Will those guys play fair? Will they play for fun? No. It's not a game, it's a job for them, and ppl can do a lot of things to keep their job. So, it looks like GTCs are encouraging those types of attitude. I think it's not the best attitude for a MMO that is supposed to be fun after all.
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.29 22:18:00 - [90] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: nahtoh "Cough" using real life money to gain a advantage that way is ok though right? Training up a character for sale for ISK on one of those 4 accounts is probably ok by you as well...well what doe you know Bhaal uses real life cash for a advantage... Whos using bull** now Bhaal? The DEV's never said buying more than one account was cheating... I have many different types of specialized charcters training, as I like to do almost all of what EVE has to offer... Paying for extra subs is certainly not the same thing as simply buying ISK... Far from it... I don't think having multiple accounts and using them to work your way through EVE is bull*, you're still working towards something, and not just buying it... And no, I have never sold any characters for ISK. I gave one away for free, but did not accept anything in return for him... You might not but people do...oh wait thats the argument to try and get GTCs for ISK banned. The devs allow GTCs for ISK so wait thats not cheating ethier by your current arguments... Or are you trying to say that your 4 accounts are all totaly seperate and have no sharing of assets? You are benifting directly by pumping more RL cash into the game than someone with one account, the speed of the pay off is not important. you are trading RL cash for ingame advantage* the how is not imporant... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 22:23:00 - [91] Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 22:24:56 Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: nahtoh "Cough" using real life money to gain a advantage that way is ok though right? Training up a character for sale for ISK on one of those 4 accounts is probably ok by you as well...well what doe you know Bhaal uses real life cash for a advantage... Whos using bull** now Bhaal? The DEV's never said buying more than one account was cheating... I have many different types of specialized charcters training, as I like to do almost all of what EVE has to offer... Paying for extra subs is certainly not the same thing as simply buying ISK... Far from it... I don't think having multiple accounts and using them to work your way through EVE is bull*, you're still working towards something, and not just buying it... And no, I have never sold any characters for ISK. I gave one away for free, but did not accept anything in return for him... You might not but people do...oh wait thats the argument to try and get GTCs for ISK banned. The devs allow GTCs for ISK so wait thats not cheating ethier by your current arguments... Or are you trying to say that your 4 accounts are all totaly seperate and have no sharing of assets? You are benifting directly by pumping more RL cash into the game than someone with one account, the speed of the pay off is not important. you are trading RL cash for ingame advantage* the how is not imporant... Uhm, the DEV's said, GTC's were not meant to be a means to buy ISK with RL cash. I play with 4 chars because it's fun, and I don't have one char who has all the skills trained to do everything that the 4 combined can... I certainly don't see having multiple accounts, and BUYING ISK as the same thing... I know the DEVÆs donÆt see it that way either, as they all have multiple accounts to play different careers, etcà ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.08.29 22:26:00 - [92] The solution would be to tag all player donations of 2 billion isk or greater to track down launderers, or possibly create a seperate donation option called "Character Transfer" which freezes the sent money for a specified amount of time after transfer.
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.29 22:26:00 - [93] Originally by: Bhaal The DEV's never said buying more than one account was cheating... I have many different types of specialized charcters training, as I like to do almost all of what EVE has to offer... Paying for extra subs is certainly not the same thing as simply buying ISK... Far from it... I don't think having multiple accounts and using them to work your way through EVE is bull****, you're still working towards something, and not just buying it... And no, I have never sold any characters for ISK. I gave one away for free, but did not accept anything in return for him... 1) Look up the word hypocrite. 2) You are one. It's sad that you want to nerf one form of RMT, just not the one you use. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 22:33:00 - [94] Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 22:33:35 Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Bhaal The DEV's never said buying more than one account was cheating... I have many different types of specialized charcters training, as I like to do almost all of what EVE has to offer... Paying for extra subs is certainly not the same thing as simply buying ISK... Far from it... I don't think having multiple accounts and using them to work your way through EVE is bull****, you're still working towards something, and not just buying it... And no, I have never sold any characters for ISK. I gave one away for free, but did not accept anything in return for him... 1) Look up the word hypocrite. 2) You are one. It's sad that you want to nerf one form of RMT, just not the one you use. LOL, whatever... I use all my characters to have fun, and yes, make ISK... Only 1 of them makes any real ISK, the other 3 are used to buy fun toys and play with them... So, whatever dude... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Nexus1972 cosmos operations	Posted - 2006.08.29 22:47:00 - [95] easy - make it so gtcs cannot be re-sold, and you can only buy gtc for isk from ccp themselves. -------------------------------- CEO of Cosmos Operations Building COSMOS Minmatar BPC's and supplying Sleeper components
Duncan MacPherson Minmatar Black Lion Legion Free Space Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.29 22:57:00 - [96] Okay I have to chime in on this thread. Seriously you guys are really something special. Lemme see if I can make this clear. 1. We want the option to buy GTC directly from CCP for in game ISK. - Someone please give me one reason why this is a good idea. CCP is a business - they made a great game but at the end of the day they are here to make money. This option does not make them any money. You are buying game time for nothing. Thank you move on. 2. ISK for GTC hurt CCP and the game. -How so? That 30 day GTC was bought with RL $$. CCP therfore gets that money. Why would a business close down something/ or stop something that would make them money? Answer - They wouldn't. 3. ISK for GTC -> GTC on ebay -Again why would CCP really care. The number of these cards that are resold isn't really going to affect the bottom line. CCP making $$. The GTC already made them money. Seriously. Yall need to really get over yourselves.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.29 23:05:00 - [97] Originally by: Duncan MacPherson Okay I have to chime in on this thread. Seriously you guys are really something special. Lemme see if I can make this clear. 1. We want the option to buy GTC directly from CCP for in game ISK. - Someone please give me one reason why this is a good idea. CCP is a business - they made a great game but at the end of the day they are here to make money. This option does not make them any money. You are buying game time for nothing. Thank you move on. 2. ISK for GTC hurt CCP and the game. -How so? That 30 day GTC was bought with RL $$. CCP therfore gets that money. Why would a business close down something/ or stop something that would make them money? Answer - They wouldn't. 3. ISK for GTC -> GTC on ebay -Again why would CCP really care. The number of these cards that are resold isn't really going to affect the bottom line. CCP making $$. The GTC already made them money. Seriously. Yall need to really get over yourselves. Go away son, ya bother me... Next time avoid a thread based on a topic in which you know nothing about... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.30 00:19:00 - [98] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 22:24:56 Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: nahtoh "Cough" using real life money to gain a advantage that way is ok though right? Training up a character for sale for ISK on one of those 4 accounts is probably ok by you as well...well what doe you know Bhaal uses real life cash for a advantage... Whos using bull** now Bhaal? The DEV's never said buying more than one account was cheating... I have many different types of specialized charcters training, as I like to do almost all of what EVE has to offer... Paying for extra subs is certainly not the same thing as simply buying ISK... Far from it... I don't think having multiple accounts and using them to work your way through EVE is bull*, you're still working towards something, and not just buying it... And no, I have never sold any characters for ISK. I gave one away for free, but did not accept anything in return for him... You might not but people do...oh wait thats the argument to try and get GTCs for ISK banned. The devs allow GTCs for ISK so wait thats not cheating ethier by your current arguments... Or are you trying to say that your 4 accounts are all totaly seperate and have no sharing of assets? You are benifting directly by pumping more RL cash into the game than someone with one account, the speed of the pay off is not important. you are trading RL cash for ingame advantage* the how is not imporant... Uhm, the DEV's said, GTC's were not meant to be a means to buy ISK with RL cash. I play with 4 chars because it's fun, and I don't have one char who has all the skills trained to do everything that the 4 combined can... I certainly don't see having multiple accounts, and BUYING ISK as the same thing... I know the DEVÆs donÆt see it that way either, as they all have multiple accounts to play different careers, etcà So? All I am pointing out is that you are a howling hypocrite Bhaal, both are using RL cash for ingame advantage. The fact that one is considered acceptible and the other is not is unimportant to that fact... All some (personally I would think its most) GTC sellers are doing is front loading the process. The most telling thing in this is YOU yourself have admitted to selling GTCs for ISK to buy a freighter to trade with for one of your 4 accounts... Myself I have purcahsed a few GTCs in game to keep my eve addiction going while I am out of work. You don't see BUYING ISK as the same as having mutlipule accounts yet you have done both. How do you view other out of game ways of getting ISK? 1. Making Sigs. 2. Hosting websites. 3. Renting TS servers. All of the above are out of game things are out of game ways of raising ISK. RL skills used to gain a in game advantage, or is it just GTCs you are against? ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Annya Avishnaya Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2006.08.30 00:31:00 - [99] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Alessar Kaldorei Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Hard work in game pays off in game. Hard work out of the game allows you to cut out the grind in game. I don't see the problem. That's bull**, go back in time 3 years and tell that to the DEV's, they would have told you the same, and I bet most of them still feel that way... The ONLY RL cash that should have anything to do with an MMO is for paying the sub, that's it... Even some of you here who now find it acceptible, would not have just a couple years ago... Tie the GTC to one account at purchase and be done with it... Then fight the farmers and MM's another way... If CCP's not up for that fight, then I guess the status quo stays... So, out of curiosity, how do you feel about multiple accounts for a single person? Should that be banned too? Nope, I have 4 accounts... Then that's quite the nice double standard you have going there. What's the difference between someone(you?) paying 60$ a month for 4 accounts to run 3 covetors and a hauler for themselves or someone paying 15$ a month for 1 account and then spending another 15$ to sell a GTC? Time spent in-game is a joke, CCP isn't paid for the amount of seconds you're logged in. Saying you "earned" it with in game time is also a joke since ice-mining in some .7 system is pretty much an afk affair, likewise for running a freighter through empire all day. You're a hyprocrite Bhaal. Either ban ALL forms of allowing RL wealth to be converted to in-game wealth or leave it all alone. If you want to ban isk for GTC's the you must also do the following: 1 account per player. No character transfers. If you want everyone on an even playing field in-game regardless of IRL wealth, then do it. What you're saying is one form of dollars of ISK is ok and another form of dollars for is isn't. If you're serious about this then you'll also be in full support of the above-mentioned chenges as well, if you're just on a soapbox then you won't because it doesn't suit you to loose 3 of your accounts. You can't have things both ways. Originally by:** Joshua Foiritain The people you dont trust arent the ones you should worry about.
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.30 00:38:00 - [100] Edited by: Bhaal on 30/08/2006 00:41:27 Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 29/08/2006 22:24:56 Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: nahtoh "Cough" using real life money to gain a advantage that way is ok though right? Training up a character for sale for ISK on one of those 4 accounts is probably ok by you as well...well what doe you know Bhaal uses real life cash for a advantage... Whos using bull** now Bhaal? The DEV's never said buying more than one account was cheating... I have many different types of specialized charcters training, as I like to do almost all of what EVE has to offer... Paying for extra subs is certainly not the same thing as simply buying ISK... Far from it... I don't think having multiple accounts and using them to work your way through EVE is bull*, you're still working towards something, and not just buying it... And no, I have never sold any characters for ISK. I gave one away for free, but did not accept anything in return for him... You might not but people do...oh wait thats the argument to try and get GTCs for ISK banned. The devs allow GTCs for ISK so wait thats not cheating ethier by your current arguments... Or are you trying to say that your 4 accounts are all totaly seperate and have no sharing of assets? You are benifting directly by pumping more RL cash into the game than someone with one account, the speed of the pay off is not important. you are trading RL cash for ingame advantage* the how is not imporant... Uhm, the DEV's said, GTC's were not meant to be a means to buy ISK with RL cash. I play with 4 chars because it's fun, and I don't have one char who has all the skills trained to do everything that the 4 combined can... I certainly don't see having multiple accounts, and BUYING ISK as the same thing... I know the DEVÆs donÆt see it that way either, as they all have multiple accounts to play different careers, etcà So? All I am pointing out is that you are a howling hypocrite Bhaal, both are using RL cash for ingame advantage. The fact that one is considered acceptible and the other is not is unimportant to that fact... All some (personally I would think its most) GTC sellers are doing is front loading the process. The most telling thing in this is YOU yourself have admitted to selling GTCs for ISK to buy a freighter to trade with for one of your 4 accounts... Myself I have purcahsed a few GTCs in game to keep my eve addiction going while I am out of work. You don't see BUYING ISK as the same as having mutlipule accounts yet you have done both. How do you view other out of game ways of getting ISK? 1. Making Sigs. 2. Hosting websites. 3. Renting TS servers. All of the above are out of game things are out of game ways of raising ISK. RL skills used to gain a in game advantage, or is it just GTCs you are against? Because having 4 accounts means I still have to be logged into the game, playing to make ISK... GTC's allow me to do that while not even logging on, only have to log on to make the GTC for ISK transfer... That's not playing, it's cheating... Having 4 accounts is not cheating, you still have to play them to advance... Those other things you listed could not possibly come close the ISK trade volume that GTC sales create on a daily basis. And yes, I've done both, so I should know the difference. IMO, GTC's for ISK is cheating the game, multiple accounts is not, as you still need to log on and perform activities in the game universe (competing with others) to make ISK. Big difference IMO... You can call me a hypocrite all you want if you like to be wrong, I don't care... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.30 01:12:00 - [101] Edited by: nahtoh on 30/08/2006 01:16:03 Originally by: Bhaal You can call me a hypocrite all you want if you like to be wrong, I don't care... Using out of game resources to increase your efcently is wrong or its not. I don't see it as a grey issue. You are a howling self important hypocrite on this issue. You have admitted to DOING what you claim is wrong by selling GTCs for ISK, but have the sheer invincable arrogance to proclaim its wrongand should nto be allowed. You sold GTCs to buy a freighter you admitted it in this thread,you Sirare by your own claims and statements a cheater by your own standards that you espouse in this thread and others like it. You have went of on one about those that buy the GTCs to play the game due to lack of RL funds saying that should not play the game but have yourself sold GTCs... I there was ever a hypocrite I submit that you are he...Those without sin throw the the stones...whats that noise I hear? Oh yeah its glass from the glasshouse you live in cruching under your feet from the stones you are throwing... Oh it does not matter how wide spread the use of RL resouces are, its just wrong to benifit from OOG resources (remember this is not my opinion its yours)... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.30 01:18:00 - [102] Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Bhaal You can call me a hypocrite all you want if you like to be wrong, I don't care... Using out of game resources to increase your efcently is wrong or its not. I don't see it as a grey issue. You are a howling self important hypocrite on this issue. You have admitted to DOING what you claim is wrong by selling GTCs for ISK, but have the sheer invincable arrogance to proclaim its wrongand should nto be allowed. You sold GTCs to buy a freighter you admitted it in this thread,you Sirare by your own claims and statements a cheater by your own standards that you espouse in this thread and others like it. You have went of on one about those that buy the GTCs to play the game due to lack of RL funds saying that should not play the game but have yourself sold GTCs... I there was ever a hypocrite I submit that you are he...Those without sin throw the the stones...whats that noise I hear? Oh yeah its glass from the glasshouse you live in cruching under your feet from the stones you are throwing... Yes, through my GTC experience, I learned first hand how GTC to ISK is bad... I however do not feel the same guilt using multiple accounts as I did when exploiting GTC's... Maybe because I generally don't play all 4 accounts at once in ISK making activities... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Will Steel	Posted - 2006.08.30 01:56:00 - [103] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: nahtoh Originally by: Bhaal You can call me a hypocrite all you want if you like to be wrong, I don't care... Using out of game resources to increase your efcently is wrong or its not. I don't see it as a grey issue. You are a howling self important hypocrite on this issue. You have admitted to DOING what you claim is wrong by selling GTCs for ISK, but have the sheer invincable arrogance to proclaim its wrongand should nto be allowed. You sold GTCs to buy a freighter you admitted it in this thread,you Sirare by your own claims and statements a cheater by your own standards that you espouse in this thread and others like it. You have went of on one about those that buy the GTCs to play the game due to lack of RL funds saying that should not play the game but have yourself sold GTCs... I there was ever a hypocrite I submit that you are he...Those without sin throw the the stones...whats that noise I hear? Oh yeah its glass from the glasshouse you live in cruching under your feet from the stones you are throwing... Yes, through my GTC experience, I learned first hand how GTC to ISK is bad... I however do not feel the same guilt using multiple accounts as I did when exploiting GTC's... Maybe because I generally don't play all 4 accounts at once in ISK making activities... Guilt? You might be blowing things out of proportion here. I wouldn't equate selling GTCs to immoral behavior. Possibly not sporting, but, as you will observe it nature, competition is not about being sporting. Personally, I feel it's also a tad silly to tell people that can't afford to pay the sub cost every month to stop playing and go make more money IRL. It's certainly their choice, and no one else's. In fact, people have many different advantages/disadvantages over other players. Some have more time. Some have more money (to pay for extra accounts ). Some have more mental capacity for this sort of game. Some began playing three years ago. The playing field is hardly perfectly "level" and that's normal. Finally, you may have to use each of your characters to make ISK with them, however, you still earn SP 4X the rate of someone who has time/money to use only a single account. You certainly have an "out of game" advantage over people. And, in the same way, some people have enough money to blow buying and selling GTCs to quickly build their ISK accounts. I'm not aware of any moral high ground you can take in the issue :P
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.30 02:18:00 - [104] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye Why should ppl who have no $$ in RL to play an MMO be able to play? Seriously? Why should you be able to play for free? Exactly. If you cannot afford to pay to play an MMO, you might want to spend less time gaming, and more time improving your life. And don't give me the 'I don't have a CC' thing. If you're in the US, and you have a checking account with any major bank, your debit card is usually a VISA as well. You can also use paybycash and other methods.
Pretty Polly	Posted - 2006.08.30 03:12:00 - [105] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye Why should ppl who have no $$ in RL to play an MMO be able to play? Seriously? Why should you be able to play for free? Exactly. If you cannot afford to pay to play an MMO, you might want to spend less time gaming, and more time improving your life. And don't give me the 'I don't have a CC' thing. If you're in the US, and you have a checking account with any major bank, your debit card is usually a VISA as well. You can also use paybycash and other methods. Good point, mmorpgs tend to take up a lot of time, if someone cant afford to spend ú6 a month to play EVE then they damn well better stop playing games and start working on real life.
Alessar Kaldorei Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.30 03:25:00 - [106] To the above poster: What about people not in the EU or the USA, where the exchange rate dollars/local currency is disadvantageous? To the others who are against GTCs for ISK: Wether you like it or not, RL is ALWAYS going to affect the game experience of people. Let's focus only on two aspects that are the ones affecting this discussion: time and money. I'm sure everyone's heard some variation of the phrase 'Time is money'. Let's see how it affects Eve. Currently you have people that have both time and money (Bhaal for instance, since he can keep up with 4 accounts), people that have money but not time (people who buy GTCs to sell for ISK), people that have time but not much disposable income (people who buy GTCs with ISK) and people who have no time or money (they don't play Eve, we don't care about them). And a whole lot of variation on these two axis. It's the extremes I pointed out that we care about. Now, having both time AND money is a very definite advantage over having only one or the other. It means you can have several accounts. As Bhaal pointed out, he has one ISK making account and the other accounts leech off the ISK of that account to play the fun bits. He's not grinding for ISK on all the accounts. Other people can make ISK as easily as Bhaal, but they can't afford as many accounts, so even though they have time, they're still at a disadvanatage because of out of game situations. They can't enjoy all the aspects of Eve, even having time for it, because they can't afford it. Other people have money, and if only they had time, they would also be able to enjoy all the aspects of Eve Bhaal enjoys so much. But that's expensive, and making ISK is a time consuming activity. Even the fastest wat of raising ISK, scamming others, requires a lot of work and free time to maintain the illusion going. Again, Bhaals real life situation of having time and money means he gets an adantage over people with lots of money. Now, Bhaal pointed out that as he plays the game, he is entitled to the benefits of 4 accounts. Because he dedicates time to it. But so long as he uses his accounts to help each other, he is taking a real life advantage into the game. In fact, the only way to eliminate real life advantages from the game would kill the game. And to believe that 'money' is the only real life advantage that affects the game is blinding oneself to the old adage I pointed out before. CCP would have to impose a maximum of 1 account, a maximum of a couple hours per week of gametime, and in general set everything to the lowest common denominator to solve the problems. GTCs, far from giving an unfair edge to people with money, levels the playing field between the three extremes. Someone with money may not be able to raise money grinding the different aspects of Eve (hauling in a freighter, mining, playing the market) but he can pay someone else to do it. The great thing about GTCs, however, is that the person he is paying only needs to be payed once per month. If you have the time, 120M per 30 days is easy to make. So a person with money to spare can pay for several people's game time, and get into a nice battleship or similar. This even discourages farmers, since farmers don't want to play, they want to make money. The people who want to play get to pay for their gametime playing. Damn, running out of space and I rambled on too much before getting to my point, as usual. Anyway, GTCs for ISK are an effective way of closing the gap between people that have time, those that have money, and those that have both. It takes an insane ammount of RL money to get an ammount of ISK that could unbalance anything. With the amount of people playing the game, even buying 10B ISK isn't going to make much of a difference.
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.08.30 03:28:00 - [107] pmsl Bhaal pwned
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.08.30 03:29:00 - [108] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: wierchas noobhunter well when u ban gtc u ban me from game so say plz no kthxbye Why should ppl who have no $$ in RL to play an MMO be able to play? Seriously? Why should you be able to play for free? Exactly. If you cannot afford to pay to play an MMO, you might want to spend less time gaming, and more time improving your life. And don't give me the 'I don't have a CC' thing. If you're in the US, and you have a checking account with any major bank, your debit card is usually a VISA as well. You can also use paybycash and other methods. What about people that cant work then dipstick ? They use GTC too.
Areconus	Posted - 2006.08.30 03:37:00 - [109] Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Is it me or does CCP really need to rethink their policy surrounding these two issues. And in fact i'd go as far as saying they need to ban the funtion NOW. Well ok maybe not quite that drastic, but close GTC's & Charachter Sales As it stands at this present time the allowing of charchter sales and GTC's is the easiest and most exploitanle system I can actually remember you implenting. All any person in Eve requires in order to iether make a large portion of isk completely risk free, or to make a tidy amount of real life cash again completely risk and effort free is to have a trial account. (Or did CCP make them unable to send/recieve isk ? If so use an account payed for under bogus details and GTC, Irony ) "But we condemn scamming" ccp If I accept a buyout on my ficticious chachter sale and recieve my isk, it will take generally 24hours at most for the charchter who brought it to expect their charachter safetly in their hands. You can expect CCP to look into the event after petition after what ? 48hours ? (Rofl yeah right, but anyway ) In 2 hours I can completely launder allmost any amount of isk you can give me. Finding it would be a nightmare, And no this isn't anything to do with escrow. So what happens then ? The scammed party gets their isk back. And the scammer walks off scott free to do it again and/or use this isk to purchase GTC's to sell for RL cash..... Ban GTC's Kthxbye. I believe one of you head GM's once said "Real life circumstances should not further in game progression" I guesse you caved in to the $ factor. Alliaanna hmm, this makes me think of how much rl cash dentara rast could have right now........... uhhhhhhhh, CCP STOP SCAMMING RIGHT NOW!
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.30 03:50:00 - [110] Edited by: Bhaal on 30/08/2006 03:50:52 Actually Bill, I don't have a lot of time to play... Part of the reason I kept getting more accounts is so it was easier for me to sit down for 30 minutes to an hour and feel like I got some kind of enjoyment out of the game in that amount of time, as travel just ate up too much time... I have had 4 accounts now for 2 years... I've never had all 4 of them in the same system, let alone mining together as only 2 of them can mine... I can count the number of times I have had 3 accounts in a mining op on one hand... My motivation was not for ISK making, as up until I liquidated a bunch of shares I had in some IPO's I struggled to keep 100 mill in my collective wallet spanning all 4 accounts... Yet my motivation for GTC to ISK was strictly for in-game monetary gain, nothing else. 4 accounts is not for monetary gain for my main, as I spend ISK on ships, implants and all the toys for each character, not to support just my "main"... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Will Steel	Posted - 2006.08.30 04:16:00 - [111] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 30/08/2006 03:50:52 Actually Bill, I don't have a lot of time to play... Part of the reason I kept getting more accounts is so it was easier for me to sit down for 30 minutes to an hour and feel like I got some kind of enjoyment out of the game in that amount of time, as travel just ate up too much time... I have had 4 accounts now for 2 years... I've never had all 4 of them in the same system, let alone mining together as only 2 of them can mine... I can count the number of times I have had 3 accounts in a mining op on one hand... My motivation was not for ISK making, as up until I liquidated a bunch of shares I had in some IPO's I struggled to keep 100 mill in my collective wallet spanning all 4 accounts... Yet my motivation for GTC to ISK was strictly for in-game monetary gain, nothing else. 4 accounts is not for monetary gain for my main, as I spend ISK on ships, implants and all the toys for each character, not to support just my "main"... It's your prerogative to play however you would within the confines of whatever rules the game devs impose upon us. Just as such with anyone else. I do again make the point that, should you bother to look after all your characters regularly, you will have the advantage of four times the SP. That is a clear advantage that could be used in a multitude of manners - not exclusively for ISK building. Hypothetically, if you were able to summon multiple personalities to ensure that each of your characters were kept separated from each other entirely, you would still, as you have said, be able to drink a somewhat more flavourful taste of EVE than would an EVE-citizen holding only one account. Surely that should count as an advantage? Especially if, as EVE is a game, the ultimate purpose of its players is to take away some measure of pleasure. With four characters you will potentially have more doors open to you. I would like to state to those people who argue players lacking the real-life funds really don't belong here that they're bleating atop high-horses at people they haven't the slightest notion regarding how actual circumstances may be. The individual is free to do as he or she may to continue with the game as long as it keeps in line with EULA. There is no good reason to criticize people opting to take advantage of GTCs. Perhaps CCP should make their official position more clear on this?
Bhaal Minmatar M. Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.30 10:29:00 - [112] Quote: Perhaps CCP should make their official position more clear on this? LOL, that's funny... I think the only official, difinitive stance you will ever get from them is that Oveur likes beer... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero

Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.