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Areconus
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Posted - 2006.09.05 20:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Pottsey öBy adding an extender you are sacrificing a resist mod or shield boost amp (the other other mids worth using really). This means that to get the added shield HP you're sacrificing resists or shield boosting bonus. This means that although your max regen area is larger, you leave that area quicker.ö I never said anything about using more extenders. I meant using PDS over relays. Your numbers make PDS look worse but often they are better. Well not always.
öThe proportional gain you get for having a large max regen area is offset by the proportionally higher damage you take or the proportionally less shield regen you have.ö Did you even test that? First use PDS over shield relay and your not taking extra damage. As for the max regen area is offset by less shield regen thatÆs sometimes true sometimes not. All depends on the length of the battle and how much DPS you are taking from the enemy. See the other thread for more details.
öI've looked at this from more angles than you realize and the added hp doesn't mean anything. If you take less damage or regen proportionally faster than the added hp it means you are able to last longer which means you have a better tank.ö I think thatÆs the problem, at a guess I would say you only looking at this from lots of angles and not doing and real testing. Anyone who says added hp doesn't mean anything clearly hasnÆt looked at it from all the angles and has not done any real combat testing. I have and my results say sometimes HP regen is better sometimes Hitpoints are better. If the HP regen tank does not outlast the Hitpoint tank then itÆs not as good and there are plenty of examples and times when the HP regen tank dies first.
Yep..which is why the shield extender helps out greatly. i tried passive tanking in a domi once(ratting only)..with a few active hards and some extenders and 7x sprs(shudders)...and of course the cap regen was so crappy i only sustained the hards for like 10 mins.(should have fitted nos hehe)...anyways with so many sprs..just a single extender helps out greatly, i know the regen is down in the 200-300 range giving alot more dps tanked
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.05 21:00:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Shadarle on 05/09/2006 21:00:58 Edited by: Shadarle on 05/09/2006 21:00:44 I've never said extenders suck all the time. I simply say extenders suck for active tanking PvE setups. The only time an extender would be good on an active tanking setup is if you were taking WAYYY more damage than you could tank, then the extender gives you a few more seconds to live. But no missions will do this kind of damage to a well made tank, so it's a worthless scenario. I will never claim to be a master of PvP tanking tactics, but I definately do know mission tanking. Mission tanking is very predictable, the damage is never incredibly high so the max tanking ability is by far the most important stat.
On missions, if you swap out PDS for SPR's on a passive setup you will lose several % tanking per swap. All the setups on my list are viable tanks, meaning you never run out of cap when using them. Thus the situation with 7 SPR's and no cap to use a hardener wouldn't happen... if my spreadsheet yields a -cap regen rate then I don't list it. If you gain extra shields from the PDS this is accounted for by the decreased regen time, meaning you spend less time in the optimal range assuming predictable damage.
The list is for tanks that will last forever, you could tank for hours at the levels I listed above... it is not burst tanking, which I believe is being referred to with extenders. Burst tanking is required when you're in WAY over your head... such as in PvP when a few ships jump you. This is not what my list is designed for, it is designed for mission runners primarily or for people who want to get the overall numerical value of their tank.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.06 23:51:00 -
[33]
You could just use my spreadsheet, select the modules and pick what enemies you want to simulate fighting, then it will adjust the tank rating based on the ability to tank what you're tanking. That's very important for T2 ships especailly, where they have one or two high resists.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Tunajuice
Demon Womb Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.07 14:59:00 -
[34]
So the best ferox tank mod is 4 tecdh2 hards, and 4 PDS.. and the second best is 4 amps, 3 pds, and a DCS? Neither of those are anywhere around what people use in real life. Either the math is suspect or people are stupid.
Also consider most people want 1 or 2 BCU, so try running some number with only 2 or 3 low slots available.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.07 18:01:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Shadarle on 07/09/2006 18:02:19 "Neither of those are anywhere around what people use in real life."
Which is exactly why I posted this list. Most people really don't understand EVE tanking very well. People are used to other games and like seeing their large HP's (large amounts of shields), or ultra fast regens, etc... but as in most games, resists are overlooked.
In DAOC people never bothered with resists early on yet complained about overpowered casters. Then tanks all got 50%+ resists and much higher resists to crown control and casters all complained about tanks. Then tanks lost some of those resists and they complained about casters.
Resists are always really big in mmorpgs, people just tend to under utilize them. I'm hoping if nothing else people see this list and realize they should think analytically about their setups.
"Also consider most people want 1 or 2 BCU, so try running some number with only 2 or 3 low slots available."
I used to have some numbers like this... but it didn't change anything from what I recall. The same setups were still the best and others were still bad. The only difference is a loss of tanking by a certain % based on the number of lows you take away.
I do plan to show these again when I get around to re-posting my list in an improved format.
"You could just use my spreadsheet, select the modules and pick what enemies you want to simulate fighting, then it will adjust the tank rating based on the ability to tank what you're tanking. That's very important for T2 ships especailly, where they have one or two high resists."
That's true... but most people obviously don't take the time to do that. I know this because of all the extremely in-efficient setups people use. By creating an actual list of popular/good fittings I can show people exactly how they compare to each other... that drives the point home much better to people it seems.
You do have a great spreadsheet though :) I'm just trying to learn to use parts of excel I never knew, so I'm making my own as a learning experience partly.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Coren Skyus
Pinnacle Technologies
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Posted - 2006.10.05 21:16:00 -
[36]
Shadarle,
Great work. Not sure if you are still working on this, but after reading you "need a better place/way to display this info" I want to offer you a page or two (however many you need) on the back of our web server if you want it.
I would be happy to update it for you when needed or maybe we can throw some content management on it.
EVEmail or message me in-game if your interested or still working on it.
Best of luck.
Coren
_________________
*** Si hoc legere scis numium eruditionis habes ***
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Sokratesz
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:41:00 -
[37]
With the new crystal set, i want to see the first passive tanked pvp rattlesnake. 30k shield ftw! And with 6 lows (make that, say...1 BCU-II 5x SPR) and 6 meds (3/4 resist mods, one T2 extender and web /scram) that's gonne be some crazy recharge rate.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.05 17:56:00 -
[38]
With 30k Shields you wouldn't use an extender, you'd use Shield Regen II's.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.10 22:18:00 -
[39]
I've updated this based on Revelations numbers. The ships switched around a bit in order of tanking ability based on this. I also switched to average resists (all 4 resists) instead of using Gurista resists (Kin/Therm) like I had used.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.12.11 07:09:00 -
[40]
ôWith 30k Shields you wouldn't use an extender, you'd use Shield Regen II's.ö For real combat the extender works out better most of the time. Its only in the math that the shield rechargeÆs are good.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.11 17:28:00 -
[41]
"For real combat the extender works out better most of the time. Its only in the math that the shield rechargeÆs are good. You data is missleading and does not match real combat."
Perhaps your personal view of "real combat" is now misleading and doesn't match what lots of people consider "real combat". If your focus is PvP that is fine, however, in PvE the math is correct on this matter. A large HP buffer doesn't mean as much in PvE as it does in PvP.
If you disagree that is fine, you can continue to throw Extenders on ships with 30k shields and get your 8-9% benefit. I'll tell you that the math shows it's not the right move... and you can be Stephen Colbert and tell me that your gut tells you it's the right answer
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.12.11 19:07:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/12/2006 19:09:37 ôIf your focus is PvP that is fine, however, in PvE the math is correct on this matter. A large HP buffer doesn't mean as much in PvE as it does in PvP. If you disagree that is fine, you can continue to throw Extenders on ships with 30k shields and get your 8-9% benefit. I'll tell you that the math shows it's not the right move... and you can be Stephen Colbert and tell me that your gut tells you it's the right answer ö WhoÆs Stephen Colbert? Anyway hereÆs some math of survival time using my two Domi setups. The only difference is one has max PDS and the other has max relays. You math says always use 7 relays lets see what happens. Not done this for so long I donÆt actually know at what point the PDS setups is better.
Ship A hitpoint ship Ship B regen ship
Against 250 DPS ship A lasts 802 seconds and Ship B cannot die Against 300 DPS ship A lasts 495 seconds and Ship B lasts 1761 seconds Against 400 DPS ship A lasts 280 seconds and Ship B lasts 369 seconds Against 500 DPS ship A lasts 195 seconds and Ship B lasts 203 seconds Against 550 DPS ship A lasts 170 seconds and Ship B lasts 166 seconds Against 600 DPS ship A lasts 150 seconds and Ship B lasts 141 seconds Against 800 DPS ship A lasts 102 seconds and Ship B lasts 87 seconds Against 1000 DPS ship A lasts 77 seconds and Ship B lasts 63 seconds
All numbers rounded down. I think itÆs clear anything under 500dps and the shield regen ship is better anything over 550dps and the hitpoint ship is better. ItÆs not a clear cut case of one setups it always better. If youÆre dealing with more then 600dps then the hitpoint ships has extra time to kill the rats and lower the incoming DPS.
Above is assuming rats hit all 4 resistanceÆs the same. Also I am surprise by these results last time I ran the math it was more extreme in that the gap between the two ships was larger on both ends of the scale.
Also for the record I take a middle ground between the two setups for PvE. Unless its PvP then pure hitpoints. Most of the PvE I do is in the 1300 to 1500 range but I dont use my domi for that.
EDIT: Guess I should have taken out 1 extender and tried one shield recharger T2. But that means a long auto pilot. I will only do that if someone wants to see what happens. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.11 19:47:00 -
[43]
I'm assuming you're tanking level 4 missions with that setup?
If so... that's a fairly week average tank. I can easily get a drake to tank far more dps than your domi can, passively. A nighthawk would passively tank so much more it isn't funny.
You're correct that PDS is slightly better in your situation with a Domi if you're taking 500 dps, etc. But if you compare PDS and SPR on one of my Drake setups that can tank 400 dps instead of 300 without breaking then the numbers change substantially.
Also, how many HP does your shield have on your domi? Is it over 20k? If so I bet that shield recharger would be better than you realize... if you have over 25-30k (30k was the original number I used to say rechargers were better, btw) then the recharger is better still.
With faction mods it's quite easy to get a Rokh tanking 1000+ dps without breaking... which puts to shame all these passive setups. So really, everything is situational... I understand that. But in general people want the best all-around tank... and the tank that can sustain the most DPS without ever breaking is, imo, the best overall bet.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.12.11 20:23:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/12/2006 20:25:45 öBut if you compare PDS and SPR on one of my Drake setups that can tank 400 dps instead of 300 without breaking then the numbers change substantially.ö I cannot fly a Drake and never really looked at the numbers. If you have time could you post the hitpoints, resistance and HP regen of both setups? Both the shield relays, extenders and rechargeÆs setup along with the other setup with extenders and PDS only? Along with any other setups you want me to run numbers on.
I would be very surprised if there is a 100dps difference between the two setups on my Domi there is a 39dps difference.
Not sure you read the other thread. Do you want your chart turning into a webpage and hosting? ThereÆs room on my website if you do.
ôAlso, how many HP does your shield have on your domi? Is it over 20k? If so I bet that shield recharger would be better than you realize...ö 28k hitpoints I will run the numbers with the shield rechargeÆs. How many do you want me to fit? I can run more then 1 set of if you want.
ôI'm assuming you're tanking level 4 missions with that setup?ö I spend most of the time doing Cosmos complexÆs with my Eos which is about 1500dps from the enemy. My Domi is just used for the odd lvl 3 mission. Where it doesnt really matter which setup I take only the odd missions deals more then 600dps so I take a mix of the two setups.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.11 20:52:00 -
[45]
I am very interested in this data.
Right now, your "ugly" list doesnt tell me what the various numbers are after the ship name. And there arent always the same amount of numbers either, so its hard to guess.
Also, have you considered linking your spreadsheet? I would love to get my hands on it to play around with an examine your setups to verify for myself the conclusions you have come up with.
Finally, am I reading your data correctly when you say the rokh has the best possible tank because it is at the bottom of your list?
Thanks.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.11 22:09:00 -
[46]
The rokh has the best possible tank of the setups I've tried on the ships I've tried. That includes a nearly 1 billion ISK shield booster, the X-Type Gistii X-Large... but I listed it just for comparison sake, the Raven with the same booster does far worse.
There reason a few are missing numbers is because I didn't list the max(p) for all ships yet. This number is the dps the ship can tank when only considering EM/Kin/Therm and not Expl (since Expl is not heavily used in PvE). I will hopefully fill those numbers in shortly.
My spreadsheet is part of a large excel file with tons of my other EVE calcs and such in it. I'm working on a Missile & Railgun sheets as well, was hoping to tie all three together eventually to get a DPS/Tanking comparison. It is currently not very easy to use, you have to understand what kind of data to put in each field, etc... I don't yet know how to restrict certain fields to certain kinds of data or to allow drop down boxes. If I release it to the general public I will be getting hammered by questions on how to use it I fear... I can email you a copy of just that spreadsheet if you want to try and figure it out. It isn't 100% feature complete by any means, it's lacking armor tanking completely and doesn't allow for Rigs or unlimited numbers of specific resist mods. It generally will handle all the normal shield tanking setups tho.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.11 23:52:00 -
[47]
Ok so looking at your list again, this time ignoring the 2 bottom entries as they use the uber expensive faction gear, I see the best tank is on a nighthawk, and is a passive setup. Did you also do an active setup and it didnt make the list? Then I see an active rokh setup as next best (same as the bottom setup except faction item replaces with a t2 item). Is that right?
Its a little hard to tell from your list if you tried every combination, since you dont list all of them.
Also, have you drawn any general conclusions about setups? Or is it really ship dependant. It seems your active tank setup is basically the same, for example.
Finally, what happens if you take out 2 low slots for BCS (or MFS for the rokh). With less slots available to tank, does that change which tanks are better? This is a pretty important question, I would think, as I imagine many people like to have 1 or 2 damage mods.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.12 03:12:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Shadarle on 12/12/2006 03:15:28 You seem to understand my findings exactly.
I have indeed tried a lot more fittings than I listed. I've tried hundreds of combinations, but if they are worse than the ones listed I simply ignore them and keep going. I basically try to find tons of different combinations of low and medium slot items. In the past I listed each combination so people could see how bad some of their own fittings were, lol... but it took up way too much space and required too much work on my part to keep it all updated when things changed. So I decided to list the top tank of each type instead.
I don't recall atm if an active nighthawk setup was good or not or if I didn't attempt it so that means I'll have to try again :)
And don't worry about it being hard to read, that should change within the day thanks to Pottsey, there will be a link to follow to see it in table form :) We would like to make it readable in the IGB as well, so it will be kept simple for now. Tho I'd love to find a way to actually post my spreadsheet to a site like Google's online spreadsheet application. Unfortunately most online spreadsheets do not support the INDEX or MATCH functions that excel does and I make extensive use of those functions.
EDIT> As to the question about removing 2 low slots... I believe all the tanks would remain in the same order if you used 2 damage mods instead of the tanking gear. The only cases this might change is ships that are close on the fitting requirements and need PDS to fit the tank listed, etc... but for the most part all tanks will simply lose 35-40% tank to lose 2 lows.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.12 04:40:00 -
[49]
Added in an active nighthawk tank. It's a bit stronger than the passive actually.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.12 20:35:00 -
[50]
There are now two new ways to view the data in the original post linked from that post. I will try to make a fully modifiable spreadsheet available online as soon as I figure out why the site will not correctly calculate the Index() function as it supposedly supports it.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
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Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.15 06:24:00 -
[51]
I notice you use a large shield booster for your active raven tank, and then you use a gisti xtra large booster.
Is there some reason you didnt use a non-faction xtra large shield booster?
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.15 16:45:00 -
[52]
Because a large and an x-large provide have the same efficiency... so for missions it really shouldn't matter which you use unless you're taking way too much damage for you to handle. Both provide for the same maximum indefinite tank... but the XL would require a lot more in the way of fitting reqs and a lot more work to operate it (turning it on/off more often). Burst tanking doesn't matter to me in PvE, if it matters to you it is easy enough to use an x-large booster instead of the large and you'll tank exactly the same amount of dps over time.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Einsteina TX
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.24 20:13:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Einsteina TX on 24/12/2006 20:17:41 I would really like a copy of your spreadsheet, been reading the topic, and since I was intuitively fitting in the terms you explain, i'd be crazy not to try to improve my fits.
Plus I think I'd be able to hold my breath long enough as to understand the sheets you use
Edit: Will be getting in touch by eve-mail ; unless you do not care about the mighty CSPA charges.
"La reprTsentation du passT s'Ttend jusqu'au dela du futur." Einsteina TX
[representation of the past extends beyond the future] |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.24 22:15:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Shadarle on 24/12/2006 22:15:48 Here is a link to the ship outfitting spreadsheet I use. I converted it from an excel 2007 version to 2003, so hopefully it works correctly. I was using the beta 2007 for a while and liked its additional options over 2003, but I believe all the formulas will work still.
Linkage
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Einsteina TX
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.26 17:43:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Einsteina TX on 26/12/2006 18:05:46 Good day, could you check the spreadsheet file you linked ?
I tried opening it and it does not seem to be downloading, I entered code like they asked.
Thanks for your time, Yours, Einsteina TX
"La reprTsentation du passT s'Ttend jusqu'au dela du futur." Einsteina TX
[representation of the past extends beyond the future] |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.26 23:21:00 -
[56]
I just followed my link and it worked after entering the code. Try again perhaps?
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2007.01.03 08:33:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Shadarle
Sorted from lowest Max Tank to highest Max Tank:
DrakePassive158.72396.79322.9318095.46EM3 Large Extender II, 1 Shield Recharger II, 2 Inv II2 SPR, 2 PDS II
DrakeActive120.33403.938176.55EMLarge Cap Battery II, Cap Recharger II, Shield Boost Amplifier II, 2 Iinv, Large SB II4 PDS II
I am interested in how long you can maitain a tank, especially the active ones. Have you gotten any timeings on how the the passive tanks last? i.e 5mins, unlimited except where vamps or energy consumeing weapons are used. How good is the passive tank setup for the Drake? How would I go up against the top lvl 3 missions? Sorry about these question.
Brechan
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.01.03 17:43:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Shadarle on 03/01/2007 17:47:02 The tanks I am listing are indefinite. You can maintain the tank forever vs the dps listed. As long as you are taking less dps than the listed "tank" value by the time you're at peak regen you will be able to survive forever.
This of course only holds true for PvE. In PvP there is no way to predict how long your tank will hold due to NOS/etc. Plus, in PvP there are many things more important than max sustainable tank.
It also does not mean you can run an active shield booster forever per say. It means that you have enough cap to average the tank listed... turning it on and off in order to keep your cap at its peak regen.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
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Posted - 2007.03.19 18:49:00 -
[59]
I am using your optimal passive shield tank for a drake.
What I was curious of, is what rigs do you find to be optimal to go with that setup? Or, does using rigs change the setup altogether?
What I chose was to add 3 shield recharge rigs while keeping the rest of your optimal setup exactly the same. But I am very curious what your new optimal setup is including rig.s
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Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
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Posted - 2007.03.19 18:53:00 -
[60]
P.S. Now that Shield Power Relay 2's are available, does that change any optimal setups?
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