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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.29 20:34:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Shadarle on 29/08/2006 20:34:48 Edited by: Shadarle on 29/08/2006 20:34:17 I have created a spreadsheet of my own which allows me to input modules and their stats and then to calculate how much tanking ability a ship can handle with any combination of those mods.
Currently I've recorded the numbers for a wide array of mods on a Raven as this is the ship I currently fly and could test each set of numbers to make sure the numbers my spreadsheet yielded matched in-game values. They did, so I should be ready to begin working on other ships now. I will be adding to this list as I have the time, if people find it helpful. (Note, I currently only have support for shield tanks (active/passive). I am not sure if I will be adding armor tanking to my spreadsheet or not)
Sorted from lowest Max Tank to highest Max Tank:
Ship --Avg --Max --Med --Low Raven01393 inv, 1 sba2 pds Raven24.5145.22 inv, 2 sba2 pds Raven68.3170.72 amp, 2 sba2 pds Raven13.6173.23 inv, 1 sba3 pds Raven36.4174.92 inv, 2 sba3 pds Raven78.3195.64 amp2 pds Raven78.3195.92 amp, 2 sba3 pds Raven60.4199.22 hard, 2 sba2 pds Raven502092 inv, 2 sba4 pds Raven29.3212.53 inv, 1 sba4 pds Raven89.8224.54 amp3 pds Raven89.9224.72 amp, 2 sba4 pds Raven74233.32 hard, 2 sba3 pds Raven48238.54 hard2 pds Raven47.3257.53 inv, 1 sba5 pds Raven103257.64 amp4 pds Raven103.2257.92 amp, 2 sba5 pds Raven89.7272.52 hard, 2 sba4 pds Raven72.2272.92 inv, 2 sba5 pds Raven97.2273.92 hard, 2 shldext5 pds Raven98.2276.42 hard, 2 capbat5 pds Raven66.8285.44 hard3 pds Raven118.2295.64 amp5 pds Raven107.7317.42 hard, 2 sba5 pds Raven119.4329.32 hard, 2 caprech5 pds Raven88.3339.14 hard4 pds Raven109.1368.74 hard3 pds 2 cpr Raven110.9383.94 hard4 pds 1 cpr Raven112.9400.84 hard5 pds
*Average/Max values listed are the actual damage per second your tank can withstand forever (in theory). DPS numbers for npcs can be found on several websites such as EVEInfo.
**A value of 0 means you don't have enough cap regen to maintain this tank
*** For simplicity sake I did my calculations using only the best of each type of mod (T2, or named) to show the best you can hope to achieve. I also used Gurista's as the default enemy for resistance purposes (thus I only factored in therm/kin resists and used therm/kinetic hardeners/amplifiers).
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.29 21:40:00 -
[2]
*** Saved for future additions ***
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Sphynx Stormlord
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Posted - 2006.08.29 21:51:00 -
[3]
It would be nice to have a key to all your abbriviations please?
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.29 22:03:00 -
[4]
Done.
If I left any out just let me know and I'll add it in. If you have any other questions, please ask. If you would like me to calculate values based on a different ship with specific mods, just list them out and I'll try to get around to it ASAP and I'll add it to the list
Sorry the list isn't easier to read... the forums use variable text sizing so a period is a different width than a letter and some letters are wider than others. I will try to figure out a way to compensate for this the best I can... I've already built a fairly simple solution into my spreadsheet as you can probably tell.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.29 22:43:00 -
[5]
I just found a glaring problem, all Ferox results are under-scored currently. I will be fixing the problem and will update the list ASAP with the new values.
Also, I am using default skill levels of 4 for any skill questions. Such as for passive shield resist skills, battlecruiser skill, shield/cap skills, etc. I also included 3% hardwirings for shields.
I really really need to find a way to lay out my table better... perhaps using HTML code because all those period's I'm using for spacing take up my character limit way too quickly and I didn't expect to need that many more posts reserved. If anyone has ideas let me know.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.30 01:50:00 -
[6]
Problem fixed. The ferox numbers jumped a lot, they should now be correct.
I may try making my table into a graphic file and hosting it online for people to view... it will be a lot nicer on the eyes that way. But until then I am really curious if people have anything they'd like to see, etc.
It seems active tanked ferox's are slightly stronger than passive tanked ones... very interesting to see. The raven is still a better tanker though, even saving one mid slot for an afterburner on the Raven. If someone is curious how much better the raven would be with that slot used for tanking I'll put it in the list next time.
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Foxtrot986
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.30 03:59:00 -
[7]
Awesome post
I will definitely use this as a reference as I will soon be flying a ferox. Thx a bunch!!
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Zakgram
Apocalyptic Raiders Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.30 07:39:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Zakgram on 30/08/2006 07:43:25
Originally by: Shadarle But until then I am really curious if people have anything they'd like to see, etc.
2 hard, 1 invuln, 2 amp, whatever booster you're using as base 3 pds II, 1 internal force field
for the hardners, can you try both em&therm, and ballistic&therm?
Thanks :)
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.30 09:02:00 -
[9]
"2 hard, 1 invuln, 2 amp, whatever booster you're using as base 3 pds II, 1 internal force field"
Unfortunately using multiple types of resist mods is not possible with my spreadsheet yet. I'm working on it, but it takes quite a bit of math to get it working in the versatile format I have it in now. I'm going to do my best to get this in asap though.
"for the hardners, can you try both em&therm, and ballistic&therm?"
I can do any combination of resists and average them all out, or list the dps you can take from each type. But using the current format I don't have even remotely enough room to list every combination here. I am trying to figure out a better way to list it, but I can list specific setups if you give me one you specifically want to compare to the others in that list already.
"Since most missions are now doing 3-4 damage types, when you pick your figures which resists are you picking for deciding how much damage a ship can take?"
I use Therm/Kin resists currently, Gurista resists.
Missions are now doing 3-4 damage types? Since when? Almost no missions do 4 damage types as far as I can tell... especially not level 3's. Angel missions will do 5% EM and a similar amount of thermal, but those are such small amounts it won't make a large difference in any calculations. I can list the average tank over all 4 resists types, but I am pretty sure no missions do 25% dmg to all types... more likely is 60% to one type, 30% to another and 5% to the other two (about what angel's do from memory).
I do plan to scew my resists to the exact percentages of each damage type each enemy group uses, but getting the stacking resist mods working is my first priority :)
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174http://myeve.eve-online.com/i |
Captain Strange
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Posted - 2006.08.30 14:53:00 -
[10]
I don't know if this will help, but I did something a bit like this a while ago in a spreadsheet I made for myself to calculate the best hardener configs for any battleship, given the module load out, on the worst situations of various missions (or at least what I thought were the worst).
It works in a similar way, you select what cap mods you have how many you are using in the ship for both armour and shield tanking, then it calculates all the permutations of hardeners, and calculated their final stacked resists, for the remaining slots and works out which config is best to tank the dps from each mission. It also takes into account how much cap recharge you have and has a guess at how much you can tank sustainably (at max recharge).
It's a bit limited, it doesn't include Nos's or cap boosters and it's only for battleships nor did I allow for all passive tanking. Most of the calculation is done in VB code so that means macro's need to be enabled to see it in action. It's getting beyond the scope of a spreadsheet so I went no further with it.
Heres the file anyway:
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0608/Eve_Battleship_Tank.zip
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.30 17:32:00 -
[11]
That's a very interesting spreadsheet you have there.
I don't have any knowledge of VB, thus mine is entirely spreadsheet based. I am using excel formulas to do everything so far... which is why there are a few things I havn't yet figured out how to calculate correctly. (stacking resists causing diminishing returns on the weakest module for example)
I did, however, manage to do a lot of things I didn't expect to be able to do. Such as, I have a list of ships with stats... then you type in the ship name you are using and it pulls the stats from the ship list. Then you can enter up to 4 configs per ship, selecting which config is active by entering a 1-4 in one box. It then spits out basically every bit of information regarding the ship, including Pre-resist tankage... average resist tankage, per type resist based tankage, etc.
I didn't tie it into my missile spreadsheet yet, but I want to... so I can compare DPS & Tankage together to see which yields the highest combination. Unfortunately that won't help gun users, but I'd like to add that at some point as well. Basically the only limitation of my program is that I have to manual record the results any time I change something... so it can be time consuming to have to update a lot of previous calculations.
I think people will find this more interesting once I've added DCS support, to prove once and for all if they are worth using or not compared to another PDS. Same for stacking resist mods (1 invuln, 2 hardeners) etc.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174http://myeve.eve-online.com/i |
Captain Strange
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Posted - 2006.08.30 19:55:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Shadarle which is why there are a few things I havn't yet figured out how to calculate correctly. (stacking resists causing diminishing returns on the weakest module for example)
Is the problem you are having, automatically sorting the hardeners resists in descending order without explicitly telling the spreadsheet to sort them? If so I may have a solution.
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Zakgram
Apocalyptic Raiders Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.30 21:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shadarle
"Since most missions are now doing 3-4 damage types, when you pick your figures which resists are you picking for deciding how much damage a ship can take?"
I use Therm/Kin resists currently, Gurista resists.
Missions are now doing 3-4 damage types? Since when? Almost no missions do 4 damage types as far as I can tell... especially not level 3's. Angel missions will do 5% EM and a similar amount of thermal, but those are such small amounts it won't make a large difference in any calculations. I can list the average tank over all 4 resists types, but I am pretty sure no missions do 25% dmg to all types... more likely is 60% to one type, 30% to another and 5% to the other two (about what angel's do from memory).
An example of a mission my agent loves giving me, 3 jumps from my storage base:
http://eveinfo.com/missions/209/eve-online-silence-the-informant
Guristas resists are great if you're seeing lots of guristas; although I'm caldari and in caldari space I appear to be getting lots of gallente action from missions like Enemies Abound. Those hurt most since the default resists of 0% em mean I have to focus on that.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.31 01:13:00 -
[14]
"Guristas resists are great if you're seeing lots of guristas; although I'm caldari and in caldari space I appear to be getting lots of gallente action from missions like Enemies Abound. Those hurt most since the default resists of 0% em mean I have to focus on that."
I completely understand that tanking values for gurista resists don't help too much against Angels/Sansha/etc. But it does give you an idea of what setups yield the best results in general. I may list all 4 resists in a future iteration of my table above so that people can see exactly how well they can tank verse every type with any given setup. Then I'll list which resist mods I used to get those results.
What this kind of list also does is it allows you to compare a ferox's passive tank to an active ferox tank or to an active raven tank. I hope to add in the ability to compare DPS as well eventually using missiles initially (since I'm a caldari pilot and already made up a missile spreadsheet for myself).
"Is the problem you are having, automatically sorting the hardeners resists in descending order without explicitly telling the spreadsheet to sort them? If so I may have a solution."
No, the problem is counting how many resist mods of a given type I have and then multiplying each by the correct amount of stacking penalty and also adding them together correctly.
If I was simply making a resist spreadsheet it would be easier, but because it is part of an existing spreadsheet I tried to make it fit in nice and pretty... and that has made it much harder. I think I'll be able to figure it out... my only issue is the 3 line long function that will be required (and thats at 1600x1200 resolution). So if I ever want to modify it I will be confused as hell whenever I look at the damned thing, heh. **********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Tyler Lowe
Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.31 03:59:00 -
[15]
Nice post.
You mentioned you were having issue with deminishing returns on stacked hardeners, so I hate to add one more headache to your list, but damage controls should be included. To limit the number of listings, I would use strictly the top DCU, but they are an important module for shield tanking, especially for Angel missions where multiple damage types will have to be tanked. J.A.F.O.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.31 04:48:00 -
[16]
I just recently read that Damage Controls don't suffer from the stacking penalty... which is a bit odd I know. I did a single test of it and it seemed to show this as correct. If you test it and find that they do suffer from the stacking penalty please let me know... but atm I am under the impression they are not included.
They do suffer from the resistant diminishing returns, such that at 50% resists a 10% module will only give 5% more, yielding 55%... but other modules also suffer from the stacking penalty. Perhaps I mispoke about the exact problem I was having before :) Both cause problems for formulas but the stacking penalty is the tougher of the two. **********************************************
Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.31 20:07:00 -
[17]
Updated the original post with Cerberus information and DCS's.
Using Therm/Kin for the Cerb is a bit unfair because of it's massive boost in those two fields... when I figure out a way to show other resists as well the Cerb will lose a bit of its luster.
I find it interesting that DCS's seem to do worse than PDS's when used with active hardeners and do better than PDS's when used with passive hardeners. Good to know though.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Magnus Card
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.31 20:16:00 -
[18]
You should try using a Vulture just to see what numbers you get.
I put a set up here that you may find interesting
Vulture passive tanking
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.08.31 20:37:00 -
[19]
Wow... the vulture is a god of a tank vs Therm/Kin.
Atm I'm seeing 401/1003 avg/max tank with the first setup I tried. I'll add a few vulture setups next time I update the list... but atm the list has reached the boundries of the first post, so I need to figure out a new way to do this. I think I should probably make a new post with ~10 saved posts and then spread out the different types of ships... unless someone has a better idea?
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Maverick Aeldrin
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Posted - 2006.09.03 09:36:00 -
[20]
I've been building a spreadsheet to make tanking for my gang much easier and faster.
My normal process was to look up the mission in eveinfo.com/missions/ Figure out which gate did the most damage Compare with my resists for what I guessed would be the most efficient build then tell gang mates what missiles/drones to use.
The process could take as long as 20 minutes of sitting and waiting for them.
Now... I choose the mission from a drop-down list and i'm done inside of 10 seconds.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=388267
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.03 22:25:00 -
[21]
I'll take a look at that :)
I'd love to learn how to use drop downs and such in excel... once I can learn to use macro's/VB I can make my spreadsheet much more dynamic :)
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.04 17:51:00 -
[22]
I've played around with numbers for a Scorpion and it can actually out-tank a Raven in some instances. Very interesting to play with.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Waenn Ironstaff
Caldari Colossus Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.04 18:29:00 -
[23]
And your opinion on Ferox Active Tanking versus Passive? (with rails in mind)
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.05 02:10:00 -
[24]
I just updated my spreadsheet to allow for any combination of resist modules, Actives/Passives/Invulns/DCS. So I plan to work on missiles/guns next... is there anything I should know about power usage of rails beyond the listed numbers and skills? I know I will could factor in the 10s reload time... though I'm not sure if that is really a good thing to factor or not, since you will be burning more energy for quite a while and it may give a higher tanking number.
In any case, I'd say a ferox with guns will probably would probably tank better with a passive tank, assuming you have enough cap to maintain it. If you run out of cap or have to sacrifice SPR's for PDS's then an active tank is your best bet... active would certainly be easier to do, just use the shield booster less if you are low on cap. But I will have some hard numbers for you as soon as I can.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.05 11:52:00 -
[25]
ôWow... the vulture is a god of a tank vs Therm/Kin.ö DonÆt forgot anyone flying a Vulture will most likely have a mindlink and gang assist active both of which boost the passive tank a lot.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Pottsey
Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.05 12:50:00 -
[26]
ôIf you run out of cap or have to sacrifice SPR's for PDS's then an active tank is your best bet...ö Unless youÆre doing PvP then the PDS are best. Your numbers are very useful but there are a few problems. Your not taking into account hitpoints or the HP regen curve. Having high hitpoints means you spend longer at a high regen. ThatÆs why extenders are often better then shield recharges. Say someone hits my PDS ship for 1000 hitpoints I might drop from 33% regen to 32% regen while a shield relay ship would drop from 33% to 29% lowering its regen. So higher hitpoints mean you take longer to get down to 30% and you spend longer in the area of high regen 15 to 60%+.
In short to medium battles your better off with hitpoint based setups. In long battles or battles where you tank holds regen is better. Its not a clear-cut case of shield relays are better then PDS. It all depends on your enemy.
If you really want to compare ships you have to add hitpoints into the formula.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.09.05 13:04:00 -
[27]
Can you factor in a Vulture too pls?
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2006.09.05 13:08:00 -
[28]
Im confused. How can we tell what shield booster you are using?
Wherever you went - here you are.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.05 17:14:00 -
[29]
"Im confused. How can we tell what shield booster you are using?"
Just added that into my 2nd post now, it must have been deleted when my first post got too long and cut off some text. Thanks for bringing it up.
"Unless youÆre doing PvP then the PDS are best. Your numbers are very useful but there are a few problems. Your not taking into account hitpoints or the HP regen curve. Having high hitpoints means you spend longer at a high regen. ThatÆs why extenders are often better then shield recharges. Say someone hits my PDS ship for 1000 hitpoints I might drop from 33% regen to 32% regen while a shield relay ship would drop from 33% to 29% lowering its regen. So higher hitpoints mean you take longer to get down to 30% and you spend longer in the area of high regen 15 to 60%+."
As I said in the other post you claimed this in, you don't understand the big picture. You're seeing only one part of the chain reaction caused by adding an extender. You need to think multiple steps ahead when figuring out which tank is stronger.
By adding an extender you are sacrificing a resist mod or shield boost amp (the other other mids worth using really). This means that to get the added shield HP you're sacrificing resists or shield boosting bonus. This means that although your max regen area is larger, you leave that area quicker.
The proportional gain you get for having a large max regen area is offset by the proportionally higher damage you take or the proportionally less shield regen you have.
Adding a shield extender increases your shield regen by the proportion of the added HP to the base HP. However, on an active tank, you should have a much higher cap regen than shield regen because shield boosters are not 1:1 efficient (unless you're using a horrible one, which is just a waste of time). Gaining 100 cap regen is eqaul to gaining 150 shield regen at base values (even bigger difference with amps/better boosters).
I've looked at this from more angles than you realize and the added hp doesn't mean anything. If you take less damage or regen proportionally faster than the added hp it means you are able to last longer which means you have a better tank.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.05 18:03:00 -
[30]
öBy adding an extender you are sacrificing a resist mod or shield boost amp (the other other mids worth using really). This means that to get the added shield HP you're sacrificing resists or shield boosting bonus. This means that although your max regen area is larger, you leave that area quicker.ö I never said anything about using more extenders. I meant using PDS over relays. Your numbers make PDS look worse but often they are better. Well not always.
öThe proportional gain you get for having a large max regen area is offset by the proportionally higher damage you take or the proportionally less shield regen you have.ö Did you even test that? First use PDS over shield relay and your not taking extra damage. As for the max regen area is offset by less shield regen thatÆs sometimes true sometimes not. All depends on the length of the battle and how much DPS you are taking from the enemy. See the other thread for more details.
öI've looked at this from more angles than you realize and the added hp doesn't mean anything. If you take less damage or regen proportionally faster than the added hp it means you are able to last longer which means you have a better tank.ö I think thatÆs the problem, at a guess I would say you only looking at this from lots of angles and not doing and real testing. Anyone who says added hp doesn't mean anything clearly hasnÆt looked at it from all the angles and has not done any real combat testing. I have and my results say sometimes HP regen is better sometimes Hitpoints are better. If the HP regen tank does not outlast the Hitpoint tank then itÆs not as good and there are plenty of examples and times when the HP regen tank dies first.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
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Areconus
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Posted - 2006.09.05 20:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Pottsey öBy adding an extender you are sacrificing a resist mod or shield boost amp (the other other mids worth using really). This means that to get the added shield HP you're sacrificing resists or shield boosting bonus. This means that although your max regen area is larger, you leave that area quicker.ö I never said anything about using more extenders. I meant using PDS over relays. Your numbers make PDS look worse but often they are better. Well not always.
öThe proportional gain you get for having a large max regen area is offset by the proportionally higher damage you take or the proportionally less shield regen you have.ö Did you even test that? First use PDS over shield relay and your not taking extra damage. As for the max regen area is offset by less shield regen thatÆs sometimes true sometimes not. All depends on the length of the battle and how much DPS you are taking from the enemy. See the other thread for more details.
öI've looked at this from more angles than you realize and the added hp doesn't mean anything. If you take less damage or regen proportionally faster than the added hp it means you are able to last longer which means you have a better tank.ö I think thatÆs the problem, at a guess I would say you only looking at this from lots of angles and not doing and real testing. Anyone who says added hp doesn't mean anything clearly hasnÆt looked at it from all the angles and has not done any real combat testing. I have and my results say sometimes HP regen is better sometimes Hitpoints are better. If the HP regen tank does not outlast the Hitpoint tank then itÆs not as good and there are plenty of examples and times when the HP regen tank dies first.
Yep..which is why the shield extender helps out greatly. i tried passive tanking in a domi once(ratting only)..with a few active hards and some extenders and 7x sprs(shudders)...and of course the cap regen was so crappy i only sustained the hards for like 10 mins.(should have fitted nos hehe)...anyways with so many sprs..just a single extender helps out greatly, i know the regen is down in the 200-300 range giving alot more dps tanked
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.05 21:00:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Shadarle on 05/09/2006 21:00:58 Edited by: Shadarle on 05/09/2006 21:00:44 I've never said extenders suck all the time. I simply say extenders suck for active tanking PvE setups. The only time an extender would be good on an active tanking setup is if you were taking WAYYY more damage than you could tank, then the extender gives you a few more seconds to live. But no missions will do this kind of damage to a well made tank, so it's a worthless scenario. I will never claim to be a master of PvP tanking tactics, but I definately do know mission tanking. Mission tanking is very predictable, the damage is never incredibly high so the max tanking ability is by far the most important stat.
On missions, if you swap out PDS for SPR's on a passive setup you will lose several % tanking per swap. All the setups on my list are viable tanks, meaning you never run out of cap when using them. Thus the situation with 7 SPR's and no cap to use a hardener wouldn't happen... if my spreadsheet yields a -cap regen rate then I don't list it. If you gain extra shields from the PDS this is accounted for by the decreased regen time, meaning you spend less time in the optimal range assuming predictable damage.
The list is for tanks that will last forever, you could tank for hours at the levels I listed above... it is not burst tanking, which I believe is being referred to with extenders. Burst tanking is required when you're in WAY over your head... such as in PvP when a few ships jump you. This is not what my list is designed for, it is designed for mission runners primarily or for people who want to get the overall numerical value of their tank.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.06 23:51:00 -
[33]
You could just use my spreadsheet, select the modules and pick what enemies you want to simulate fighting, then it will adjust the tank rating based on the ability to tank what you're tanking. That's very important for T2 ships especailly, where they have one or two high resists.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Tunajuice
Demon Womb Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.07 14:59:00 -
[34]
So the best ferox tank mod is 4 tecdh2 hards, and 4 PDS.. and the second best is 4 amps, 3 pds, and a DCS? Neither of those are anywhere around what people use in real life. Either the math is suspect or people are stupid.
Also consider most people want 1 or 2 BCU, so try running some number with only 2 or 3 low slots available.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.09.07 18:01:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Shadarle on 07/09/2006 18:02:19 "Neither of those are anywhere around what people use in real life."
Which is exactly why I posted this list. Most people really don't understand EVE tanking very well. People are used to other games and like seeing their large HP's (large amounts of shields), or ultra fast regens, etc... but as in most games, resists are overlooked.
In DAOC people never bothered with resists early on yet complained about overpowered casters. Then tanks all got 50%+ resists and much higher resists to crown control and casters all complained about tanks. Then tanks lost some of those resists and they complained about casters.
Resists are always really big in mmorpgs, people just tend to under utilize them. I'm hoping if nothing else people see this list and realize they should think analytically about their setups.
"Also consider most people want 1 or 2 BCU, so try running some number with only 2 or 3 low slots available."
I used to have some numbers like this... but it didn't change anything from what I recall. The same setups were still the best and others were still bad. The only difference is a loss of tanking by a certain % based on the number of lows you take away.
I do plan to show these again when I get around to re-posting my list in an improved format.
"You could just use my spreadsheet, select the modules and pick what enemies you want to simulate fighting, then it will adjust the tank rating based on the ability to tank what you're tanking. That's very important for T2 ships especailly, where they have one or two high resists."
That's true... but most people obviously don't take the time to do that. I know this because of all the extremely in-efficient setups people use. By creating an actual list of popular/good fittings I can show people exactly how they compare to each other... that drives the point home much better to people it seems.
You do have a great spreadsheet though :) I'm just trying to learn to use parts of excel I never knew, so I'm making my own as a learning experience partly.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Coren Skyus
Pinnacle Technologies
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Posted - 2006.10.05 21:16:00 -
[36]
Shadarle,
Great work. Not sure if you are still working on this, but after reading you "need a better place/way to display this info" I want to offer you a page or two (however many you need) on the back of our web server if you want it.
I would be happy to update it for you when needed or maybe we can throw some content management on it.
EVEmail or message me in-game if your interested or still working on it.
Best of luck.
Coren
_________________
*** Si hoc legere scis numium eruditionis habes ***
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Sokratesz
Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.11.18 17:41:00 -
[37]
With the new crystal set, i want to see the first passive tanked pvp rattlesnake. 30k shield ftw! And with 6 lows (make that, say...1 BCU-II 5x SPR) and 6 meds (3/4 resist mods, one T2 extender and web /scram) that's gonne be some crazy recharge rate.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.05 17:56:00 -
[38]
With 30k Shields you wouldn't use an extender, you'd use Shield Regen II's.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.10 22:18:00 -
[39]
I've updated this based on Revelations numbers. The ships switched around a bit in order of tanking ability based on this. I also switched to average resists (all 4 resists) instead of using Gurista resists (Kin/Therm) like I had used.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.12.11 07:09:00 -
[40]
ôWith 30k Shields you wouldn't use an extender, you'd use Shield Regen II's.ö For real combat the extender works out better most of the time. Its only in the math that the shield rechargeÆs are good.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.11 17:28:00 -
[41]
"For real combat the extender works out better most of the time. Its only in the math that the shield rechargeÆs are good. You data is missleading and does not match real combat."
Perhaps your personal view of "real combat" is now misleading and doesn't match what lots of people consider "real combat". If your focus is PvP that is fine, however, in PvE the math is correct on this matter. A large HP buffer doesn't mean as much in PvE as it does in PvP.
If you disagree that is fine, you can continue to throw Extenders on ships with 30k shields and get your 8-9% benefit. I'll tell you that the math shows it's not the right move... and you can be Stephen Colbert and tell me that your gut tells you it's the right answer
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.12.11 19:07:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/12/2006 19:09:37 ôIf your focus is PvP that is fine, however, in PvE the math is correct on this matter. A large HP buffer doesn't mean as much in PvE as it does in PvP. If you disagree that is fine, you can continue to throw Extenders on ships with 30k shields and get your 8-9% benefit. I'll tell you that the math shows it's not the right move... and you can be Stephen Colbert and tell me that your gut tells you it's the right answer ö WhoÆs Stephen Colbert? Anyway hereÆs some math of survival time using my two Domi setups. The only difference is one has max PDS and the other has max relays. You math says always use 7 relays lets see what happens. Not done this for so long I donÆt actually know at what point the PDS setups is better.
Ship A hitpoint ship Ship B regen ship
Against 250 DPS ship A lasts 802 seconds and Ship B cannot die Against 300 DPS ship A lasts 495 seconds and Ship B lasts 1761 seconds Against 400 DPS ship A lasts 280 seconds and Ship B lasts 369 seconds Against 500 DPS ship A lasts 195 seconds and Ship B lasts 203 seconds Against 550 DPS ship A lasts 170 seconds and Ship B lasts 166 seconds Against 600 DPS ship A lasts 150 seconds and Ship B lasts 141 seconds Against 800 DPS ship A lasts 102 seconds and Ship B lasts 87 seconds Against 1000 DPS ship A lasts 77 seconds and Ship B lasts 63 seconds
All numbers rounded down. I think itÆs clear anything under 500dps and the shield regen ship is better anything over 550dps and the hitpoint ship is better. ItÆs not a clear cut case of one setups it always better. If youÆre dealing with more then 600dps then the hitpoint ships has extra time to kill the rats and lower the incoming DPS.
Above is assuming rats hit all 4 resistanceÆs the same. Also I am surprise by these results last time I ran the math it was more extreme in that the gap between the two ships was larger on both ends of the scale.
Also for the record I take a middle ground between the two setups for PvE. Unless its PvP then pure hitpoints. Most of the PvE I do is in the 1300 to 1500 range but I dont use my domi for that.
EDIT: Guess I should have taken out 1 extender and tried one shield recharger T2. But that means a long auto pilot. I will only do that if someone wants to see what happens. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.11 19:47:00 -
[43]
I'm assuming you're tanking level 4 missions with that setup?
If so... that's a fairly week average tank. I can easily get a drake to tank far more dps than your domi can, passively. A nighthawk would passively tank so much more it isn't funny.
You're correct that PDS is slightly better in your situation with a Domi if you're taking 500 dps, etc. But if you compare PDS and SPR on one of my Drake setups that can tank 400 dps instead of 300 without breaking then the numbers change substantially.
Also, how many HP does your shield have on your domi? Is it over 20k? If so I bet that shield recharger would be better than you realize... if you have over 25-30k (30k was the original number I used to say rechargers were better, btw) then the recharger is better still.
With faction mods it's quite easy to get a Rokh tanking 1000+ dps without breaking... which puts to shame all these passive setups. So really, everything is situational... I understand that. But in general people want the best all-around tank... and the tank that can sustain the most DPS without ever breaking is, imo, the best overall bet.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Pottsey
Gallente Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2006.12.11 20:23:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Pottsey on 11/12/2006 20:25:45 öBut if you compare PDS and SPR on one of my Drake setups that can tank 400 dps instead of 300 without breaking then the numbers change substantially.ö I cannot fly a Drake and never really looked at the numbers. If you have time could you post the hitpoints, resistance and HP regen of both setups? Both the shield relays, extenders and rechargeÆs setup along with the other setup with extenders and PDS only? Along with any other setups you want me to run numbers on.
I would be very surprised if there is a 100dps difference between the two setups on my Domi there is a 39dps difference.
Not sure you read the other thread. Do you want your chart turning into a webpage and hosting? ThereÆs room on my website if you do.
ôAlso, how many HP does your shield have on your domi? Is it over 20k? If so I bet that shield recharger would be better than you realize...ö 28k hitpoints I will run the numbers with the shield rechargeÆs. How many do you want me to fit? I can run more then 1 set of if you want.
ôI'm assuming you're tanking level 4 missions with that setup?ö I spend most of the time doing Cosmos complexÆs with my Eos which is about 1500dps from the enemy. My Domi is just used for the odd lvl 3 mission. Where it doesnt really matter which setup I take only the odd missions deals more then 600dps so I take a mix of the two setups.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.11 20:52:00 -
[45]
I am very interested in this data.
Right now, your "ugly" list doesnt tell me what the various numbers are after the ship name. And there arent always the same amount of numbers either, so its hard to guess.
Also, have you considered linking your spreadsheet? I would love to get my hands on it to play around with an examine your setups to verify for myself the conclusions you have come up with.
Finally, am I reading your data correctly when you say the rokh has the best possible tank because it is at the bottom of your list?
Thanks.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.11 22:09:00 -
[46]
The rokh has the best possible tank of the setups I've tried on the ships I've tried. That includes a nearly 1 billion ISK shield booster, the X-Type Gistii X-Large... but I listed it just for comparison sake, the Raven with the same booster does far worse.
There reason a few are missing numbers is because I didn't list the max(p) for all ships yet. This number is the dps the ship can tank when only considering EM/Kin/Therm and not Expl (since Expl is not heavily used in PvE). I will hopefully fill those numbers in shortly.
My spreadsheet is part of a large excel file with tons of my other EVE calcs and such in it. I'm working on a Missile & Railgun sheets as well, was hoping to tie all three together eventually to get a DPS/Tanking comparison. It is currently not very easy to use, you have to understand what kind of data to put in each field, etc... I don't yet know how to restrict certain fields to certain kinds of data or to allow drop down boxes. If I release it to the general public I will be getting hammered by questions on how to use it I fear... I can email you a copy of just that spreadsheet if you want to try and figure it out. It isn't 100% feature complete by any means, it's lacking armor tanking completely and doesn't allow for Rigs or unlimited numbers of specific resist mods. It generally will handle all the normal shield tanking setups tho.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.11 23:52:00 -
[47]
Ok so looking at your list again, this time ignoring the 2 bottom entries as they use the uber expensive faction gear, I see the best tank is on a nighthawk, and is a passive setup. Did you also do an active setup and it didnt make the list? Then I see an active rokh setup as next best (same as the bottom setup except faction item replaces with a t2 item). Is that right?
Its a little hard to tell from your list if you tried every combination, since you dont list all of them.
Also, have you drawn any general conclusions about setups? Or is it really ship dependant. It seems your active tank setup is basically the same, for example.
Finally, what happens if you take out 2 low slots for BCS (or MFS for the rokh). With less slots available to tank, does that change which tanks are better? This is a pretty important question, I would think, as I imagine many people like to have 1 or 2 damage mods.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.12 03:12:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Shadarle on 12/12/2006 03:15:28 You seem to understand my findings exactly.
I have indeed tried a lot more fittings than I listed. I've tried hundreds of combinations, but if they are worse than the ones listed I simply ignore them and keep going. I basically try to find tons of different combinations of low and medium slot items. In the past I listed each combination so people could see how bad some of their own fittings were, lol... but it took up way too much space and required too much work on my part to keep it all updated when things changed. So I decided to list the top tank of each type instead.
I don't recall atm if an active nighthawk setup was good or not or if I didn't attempt it so that means I'll have to try again :)
And don't worry about it being hard to read, that should change within the day thanks to Pottsey, there will be a link to follow to see it in table form :) We would like to make it readable in the IGB as well, so it will be kept simple for now. Tho I'd love to find a way to actually post my spreadsheet to a site like Google's online spreadsheet application. Unfortunately most online spreadsheets do not support the INDEX or MATCH functions that excel does and I make extensive use of those functions.
EDIT> As to the question about removing 2 low slots... I believe all the tanks would remain in the same order if you used 2 damage mods instead of the tanking gear. The only cases this might change is ships that are close on the fitting requirements and need PDS to fit the tank listed, etc... but for the most part all tanks will simply lose 35-40% tank to lose 2 lows.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.12 04:40:00 -
[49]
Added in an active nighthawk tank. It's a bit stronger than the passive actually.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.12 20:35:00 -
[50]
There are now two new ways to view the data in the original post linked from that post. I will try to make a fully modifiable spreadsheet available online as soon as I figure out why the site will not correctly calculate the Index() function as it supposedly supports it.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
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Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.15 06:24:00 -
[51]
I notice you use a large shield booster for your active raven tank, and then you use a gisti xtra large booster.
Is there some reason you didnt use a non-faction xtra large shield booster?
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.15 16:45:00 -
[52]
Because a large and an x-large provide have the same efficiency... so for missions it really shouldn't matter which you use unless you're taking way too much damage for you to handle. Both provide for the same maximum indefinite tank... but the XL would require a lot more in the way of fitting reqs and a lot more work to operate it (turning it on/off more often). Burst tanking doesn't matter to me in PvE, if it matters to you it is easy enough to use an x-large booster instead of the large and you'll tank exactly the same amount of dps over time.
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Tank Rankings - Ships & Fittings Compared! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=386174 |
Einsteina TX
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.24 20:13:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Einsteina TX on 24/12/2006 20:17:41 I would really like a copy of your spreadsheet, been reading the topic, and since I was intuitively fitting in the terms you explain, i'd be crazy not to try to improve my fits.
Plus I think I'd be able to hold my breath long enough as to understand the sheets you use
Edit: Will be getting in touch by eve-mail ; unless you do not care about the mighty CSPA charges.
"La reprTsentation du passT s'Ttend jusqu'au dela du futur." Einsteina TX
[representation of the past extends beyond the future] |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.24 22:15:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Shadarle on 24/12/2006 22:15:48 Here is a link to the ship outfitting spreadsheet I use. I converted it from an excel 2007 version to 2003, so hopefully it works correctly. I was using the beta 2007 for a while and liked its additional options over 2003, but I believe all the formulas will work still.
Linkage
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Einsteina TX
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.12.26 17:43:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Einsteina TX on 26/12/2006 18:05:46 Good day, could you check the spreadsheet file you linked ?
I tried opening it and it does not seem to be downloading, I entered code like they asked.
Thanks for your time, Yours, Einsteina TX
"La reprTsentation du passT s'Ttend jusqu'au dela du futur." Einsteina TX
[representation of the past extends beyond the future] |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2006.12.26 23:21:00 -
[56]
I just followed my link and it worked after entering the code. Try again perhaps?
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2007.01.03 08:33:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Shadarle
Sorted from lowest Max Tank to highest Max Tank:
DrakePassive158.72396.79322.9318095.46EM3 Large Extender II, 1 Shield Recharger II, 2 Inv II2 SPR, 2 PDS II
DrakeActive120.33403.938176.55EMLarge Cap Battery II, Cap Recharger II, Shield Boost Amplifier II, 2 Iinv, Large SB II4 PDS II
I am interested in how long you can maitain a tank, especially the active ones. Have you gotten any timeings on how the the passive tanks last? i.e 5mins, unlimited except where vamps or energy consumeing weapons are used. How good is the passive tank setup for the Drake? How would I go up against the top lvl 3 missions? Sorry about these question.
Brechan
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.01.03 17:43:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Shadarle on 03/01/2007 17:47:02 The tanks I am listing are indefinite. You can maintain the tank forever vs the dps listed. As long as you are taking less dps than the listed "tank" value by the time you're at peak regen you will be able to survive forever.
This of course only holds true for PvE. In PvP there is no way to predict how long your tank will hold due to NOS/etc. Plus, in PvP there are many things more important than max sustainable tank.
It also does not mean you can run an active shield booster forever per say. It means that you have enough cap to average the tank listed... turning it on and off in order to keep your cap at its peak regen.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
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Posted - 2007.03.19 18:49:00 -
[59]
I am using your optimal passive shield tank for a drake.
What I was curious of, is what rigs do you find to be optimal to go with that setup? Or, does using rigs change the setup altogether?
What I chose was to add 3 shield recharge rigs while keeping the rest of your optimal setup exactly the same. But I am very curious what your new optimal setup is including rig.s
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Kaven Kantrix
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
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Posted - 2007.03.19 18:53:00 -
[60]
P.S. Now that Shield Power Relay 2's are available, does that change any optimal setups?
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WredStorm
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2007.03.19 21:14:00 -
[61]
Edited by: WredStorm on 21/03/2007 21:19:24 Here are some setups you might consider looking at, all involving a Myrmidon. I've used skill level 4 for relevant skills (ie: capacitor and shield related skills. I've used easily available modules, even if they might be expensive (e.g.: SPR IIs), but no faction gear. Also included in the calculations were two implants, the +5% shield hp one and the -5% shield recharge time one.
Myrmidon Highs: Whatever you want... main damage is from drones. Mids: 5x LSE II Lows: 6x SPR II Rigs: 3x CDFP I
Shield HP: 21459.06 Shield Regen Time: 93.73s Avg. Regen/sec:228.95 Peak Regen/sec:572.36 Resists & Tankable DPS EM = 0.00% = 572 tankable DPS EX = 60.00% = 1431 tankable DPS KI = 40.00% = 954 tankable DPS TH = 20.00% = 715 tankable DPS Average= 918 tankable DPS
This setup has absolutely no CAP usage at all, thus someone can suck you dry as a desert and you'd still be regenning this much.
Second setup... uses cap, but can run forever (peak cap usage is 3.2/sec and peak regen is 3.5/sec):
Myrmidon Highs: Whatever you want... main damage is from drones. Mids: 4x LSE II, 1x Invuln Field II Lows: 5x SPR II, 1x PDS II Rigs: 3x CDFP I
Shield HP: 19057.14 Shield Regen Time: 112.85s Avg. Regen/sec: 168.87 Peak Regen/sec: 422.18 Resists & Tankable DPS EM = 30.00% = 603 tankable DPS EX = 72.00% = 1508 tankable DPS KI = 58.00% = 1005 tankable DPS TH = 44.00% = 754 tankable DPS Average = 967 tankable DPS
Under normal circumstances this second setup would be preferred, due to its higher tankable DPS values, but if you were going into PvP and worried about being NOS'd dry, the first setup might be better (I'll leave that up to others to debate).
If you aren't worried about creating a setup that regenerates enough cap to run forever without outside aid (ie: you don't mind NOS'ing your opponent to power your own modules) then go with the following setup:
Highs: 2x Med. Diminishing NOS, the rest whatever Mids: 3x LSE II, 2x Invuln. Field II Lows: 6x SPR II Rigs: 3x CDFP I
Shield HP: 14844.06 Shield Regen Time: 93.73s Avg. Regen/sec: 158.37 Peak Regen/sec: 395.93 Resists and Tankable DPS EM = 48.25% = 765 tankable DPS EX = 79.30% = 1913 tankable DPS KI = 68.95% = 1275 tankable DPS TH = 58.60% = 956 tankable DPS Average = 1227 tankable DPS
Your peak capacitor needs with this latter setup is 6.4 cap/second, which you can easily recapture with two NOS.
Enjoy, Wred
Edited: Fixed spelling mistake... deserts are dry, not desserts. ----- Think out of the box, consider passive shield tanking your Myrmidon, you'll be pleasantly surprised! |
VaderDSL
Caldari Incoherent Inc
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Posted - 2007.04.13 00:21:00 -
[62]
Can I pick peoples brains on my vulture for missions please?
Currently and in the next month this will be my stats on my vulture :
Vulture
Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Heavy Missile Launcher II Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I Siege Warfare Link - Shield Harmonizing
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Ballistic Deflection Field II
Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II
Rigs : Core Defence Field Purger I \ Core Defence Field Purger I \
27062.95 shield, [recharge in 190 seconds] 340/s[roughly], E/T/K/Ex=25/84/89/69
I will have the siege warfare specialist implant plugged in, probably giving the above values I think.
Would I be better dropping an extender for another hardener? Or will the shield harmonizing warfare link add enough to the resistances?
In fact can anyone work out the resistances after the shield harmonizing module is activated with lvl 5 siege warfare specialist, warfare link specialist 5, command ships 4 and the mindlink?
Am I missing anything setup wise or numbers wise?
Cheers
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Sir Bart
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.05.11 05:16:00 -
[63]
According to the op, you're better off changing 2 extenders into sheild rechargers. According to potsey, the HP is better. If it's against NPC, I suspect the sheild rechargers win.
-Bart
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Ser Reli
Caldari Kudzu Collective
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Posted - 2007.05.18 23:06:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Ser Reli on 18/05/2007 23:07:20 Edited by: Ser Reli on 18/05/2007 23:06:42 Make sure you keep in mind you have to have someone around to get those link bonuses. As the person above me said though you might want to flip out a shield recharger for a shield extender then check the recharge rate. If your doing missions for gallente you should have level 3 missions in the bag, so that means your planning to do level 4's with that setup, I wouldn't advise it with that setup due to the amount of damage you need to kill the battleships, it will take -forever-.
And I have a question what are the numbers right after the ship type? Is the fourth one shield ammount, but not sure what the first three are...
edit: also about the myrmidon, It looks like a really good tank, but with so many shield power relays II, doesn't your cap recharge get so messed up you sometimes have to wait a while to warp? I know when i fitted one ship with 4 SPR, it would pretty much mean don't plan on any long trips.
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Metanus Corpus
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Posted - 2007.05.26 15:10:00 -
[65]
For Retribution
1 APU 1 400 mm rolled tungsten plate 1 Damage Control II 1 Small Armor Repairer II 1 Energized Adeptive Nano Membrane II
& 1 thermal armor hardener rig 1 cap recharge rig
u got 2586 armor nd all resistance 70 + I tanked lvl 4 angel extravaganza bonus with this setup
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Apollo Greyclaw
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Posted - 2007.05.29 20:32:00 -
[66]
Hey Shadarle
I've been looking at your spreadsheets with great interest. Firstly I've gotta say thanks for sharing your work as its been really helpful and has got me a bit hooked on tanking!
I was wondering where your information came from? I'm asking as I have been considering writing an application in vb to carry out the same function as your spreadsheet. Any links or help you can give me would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Apollo
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.07.28 16:05:00 -
[67]
I'm sorry I haven't posted in a while.
I find purgers to be the best passive tank rig by far for Drakes/Nighthawks/Vultures/etc.
I would say that the Myrm setup listed is likely FAR from optimal. Anytime you go all out for something (using 5x LSEII is definitely going all out) you will not have the best tank.
To maximize your tank you generally have to mix and max a bit. 1-2 Invuln Field II's would definitely make a massive difference in the tank. And vs specific enemies 1 each of specific hardeners would make a bigger difference. But if you refuse to use resist mods for some reason then 2 rechargers would almost definitely be better in PvE.
ps. I will try to update my OP with some new numbers as soon as I can.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Kell Braugh
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Posted - 2007.09.20 19:37:00 -
[68]
I hate to quisi-necro this thread, but something i didn't seem mentioned here is the fact that Shield Extenders add signature radius to your ship, which increases damage from (larger) missiles.
For example, the base Drake sig radius is 285 m. Which would actually give you a 28.5% reduction in the damage from a Torpedo class missile. The passive tanked version (for instance) shown in this excel sheet drops that to about 9% reduction.
"Proof": using the formula in this thread
Quote: Missile Damage * (Target Signature Radius / Missile Explosion Radius) * e^( -1 * (Target Velocity - Missile Explosion Velocity )^2 / (1500^2) ) = Final Missile Damage
and plugging in the numbers it would be:
Juggernaut on base Drake, assuming both ships are at full stop we can safely drop everything but the bolded sub statement (right?) 450 * (285 / 400) = 320.625
With your passive drake setup... 3x Shield Extend IIs (+75 sig radius) 450 * (350 / 400) = 393.75
Base drake shield regen = 15.04 HP / sec Pass Tank regen = 98.43 HP / sec
Regen with set up is 83.39 HP / sec more, but gets 73.125 more damage per torpedo.
Therefore, assuming you get hit with a torp every 2 seconds (on average), (which is more that possible in some lvl 4 missions [or PvP ganks for that matter]) you are in effect only saving 10.265 HP / sec on this setup.
Of course I've made the situation simplified to keep the math simple, but you should be able to see my point.
Please feel free to correct me.
All the glitters is not gold.
Just something to keep in mind...
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.10.12 20:15:00 -
[69]
You're absolutely correct. But it's hard to account for such things because it only matters if you're facing torpedo's, thus you have to be on level 4's vs battleships that use them. It's fairly situational, but indeed it does make a difference.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Waenn Ironstaff
Caldari Elite Storm Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:16:00 -
[70]
Not sure if I read your data correct but Ferox with Active Shield Tanking appears to be the weakest for Battle cruisers?
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warthon
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Posted - 2008.01.18 01:37:00 -
[71]
Edited by: warthon on 18/01/2008 01:37:25 you obviously have not done your home work (op that is) the rest have. the set ups you have do not come close to the maximums for active and passive on almost EVERY ship you fit. this thread is full of miss information and is lacking a lot of key factors. What skills are involved. what level do you have them at. what are you testing time in ... EFT? in game? what? Do you use rigs? are they sustainable. Do you have any form of dps with them? Some tanking set ups sacrifice dps to a point where its not even smart to use it against frigs. The numbers you put out there are off and you do not show all forms of your set ups. if you want to show the people in eve what is good and what is not, do not spread miss information. If you would like true numbers use eft or contact me in game. i know this was made with the best of intentions but if you do it wrong its still wrong :P if you are going to keep this as a signature please update it or remove it one.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:26:00 -
[72]
Originally by: warthon Edited by: warthon on 18/01/2008 01:37:25 you obviously have not done your home work (op that is) the rest have. the set ups you have do not come close to the maximums for active and passive on almost EVERY ship you fit. this thread is full of miss information and is lacking a lot of key factors. What skills are involved. what level do you have them at. what are you testing time in ... EFT? in game? what? Do you use rigs? are they sustainable. Do you have any form of dps with them? Some tanking set ups sacrifice dps to a point where its not even smart to use it against frigs. The numbers you put out there are off and you do not show all forms of your set ups. if you want to show the people in eve what is good and what is not, do not spread miss information. If you would like true numbers use eft or contact me in game. i know this was made with the best of intentions but if you do it wrong its still wrong :P if you are going to keep this as a signature please update it or remove it one.
This post is very out-dated as you probably noticed. But most of the setups are still very close to accurate. The only difference is you'd see better thanks due to rigs and some newer mods that weren't really available at the time. Same goes for some implants.
I probably should take it out of my sig, but it is not nearly as "off" as you seem to think it is. And it is focused on PvE not PvP and on Tanking not DPS. I started updating my spreadsheet to compare DPS and Tanking ability but I never finished that. I barely run missions anymore as I make unbelievably more without leaving the station.
But if you really want to throw stones at least provide facts to back up your claims. Show me where the numbers are wrong. As far as I know all the numbers are nearly perfect for the modules listed based on the assumptions made (which I'm sure you read).
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
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