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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
62
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Posted - 2014.11.25 06:17:54 -
[121] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote: -5% bounty is not much , and most of the ratters do rate in blue donut , so they get a bit more. Reprocessing change , sorry this have nothing to do with isk. When you reprocess stuff you don't get additional isk, just minerals. You have to difference assets and isk.
So you propose to screw everyone not ratting in the blue donut?
Anthar Thebess wrote:Look at this this way.
You killed 100 bs rats, and you got 100mil isk from bounty and 100mil worth materials from reprocessing , and salvage.
From those minerals you build yourself 3 battlecruisers, using those 100mil you bought fits. Day later you loose those ships in the fight.
What happened to initial assets : 1. Minerals and salvage They where removed from the system , the moment those ship died. You or someone else can "recover" some of the salvage by salvaging those 3 wrecks, but this will be minimal amount of goods. 2.ISK from bounty. Isk was spent on fits, and ammunition, it was not destroyed with those ships, it just changed hands. What more , loosing those ships generated isk from insurance , so you got around 40-50mil to your wallet.
Summarizing : From 100mil isk introduced into the system, and 100mil worth of minerals we got to the point that we have 140-150mil isk in the system and 0 isk in goods.
Insurance is important for new players. Goal is to create new way to pull this isk from the system in a some way - and not only assume that the best way to remove isk from game is to wait for someone to abandon his accounts.
Didn't you just said that assets have nothing to do with ISK, and then instantly converted them to ISK there? I don't like your math. Somewhere in the middle fits disappeared and bounty appeared out of nowhere. And it somehow added 100m to the flow. Not to mention that insurance is already not covering much on most current pvp doctrines - T2 and T3 hulls - producing those takes a lot more than just minerals, and good ratting ships costs even more than those.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
766
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Posted - 2014.11.25 06:30:50 -
[122] - Quote
Tax on local chat you want intel pay concord...
A lot hi lo or blue sec regardless.
*cough il take my leave now |
Anthar Thebess
806
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Posted - 2014.11.25 07:56:46 -
[123] - Quote
I stated that assets are not isk. This was just used as an example. 1.Obtained minerals where used to build ships. 2.Those minerals where used to build ships , and with those ships they where removed from system. 3.Loosing those ships generated insurance ISK. ( this is good for new players)
Example was about that isk obtained at the same time as materials, don't die with the ships, just change hands.
PHOEBE Retrospective
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1991
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Posted - 2014.11.25 08:00:23 -
[124] - Quote
Affordable faction modules. Most of them are barely better than tech 2 yet barely cheaper than deadspace so everyone just fits deadspace instead. If faction modules were more affordable (considering overall price) while a good chunk of their market value was the ISK cost from the LP store, they would get used a lot more and that would mean large amounts of ISK being drained into LP stores.
Giving LP stores more options for things you can buy with mostly just ISK would really help put a cap on inflation because inflation would cause those particular items to become cheaper, increasing their popularity, causing ISK to go to LP stores, causing deflation.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Anthar Thebess
807
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Posted - 2014.11.25 08:14:14 -
[125] - Quote
Faction modules from LP stores are good isk sinks. If they are worthless - they are quite cheap, on the opposite if they are kind of "OP" then their price goes to dozens or hundred of millions.
Why Republic Fleet Points are so expensive? Because when you mount it on ship that will apply bonuses , and use this "overload" button. You get something very interesting ;)
Expanding LP stores can be good, but at thing same time we will create big pressure on T2 market.
Now why LP store items are good to eve : Republic Fleet Warp Scrambler
What do you need to get one from NPC: LP : 80,000 ISK: 32,000,000 & tags.
So each time this kind module is bought 32milion isk is being removed from the game.
PHOEBE Retrospective
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1991
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Posted - 2014.11.25 08:24:01 -
[126] - Quote
They should cut back on those LP costs, especially for faction modules where the only difference between them and tech 2 is CPU cost.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Anthar Thebess
807
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Posted - 2014.11.25 08:41:26 -
[127] - Quote
Well thats the point why they are so expensive. Few cpu units here , few there ... and you can fit something better. Price of those modules is dictated by players mostly.
Every thing above those 32mil for Republic Fleet Distruptor or Scrambler is added by players.
Look at the Republic Fleet Point and Scrambler. They both cost the same in LP stores , yet on the market there is usually 40mil price difference between them.
If you make faction modules to cheap, T2 market will be affected.
Some work can be done ( like someone already stated before) to boost the isk cost of the modules in LP store at the cost of LP needed.
PHOEBE Retrospective
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King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
279
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Posted - 2014.11.25 08:43:16 -
[128] - Quote
Still looking for proofs of inflation
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1991
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Posted - 2014.11.25 08:52:21 -
[129] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:Still looking for proofs of inflation
price of plex is proof. It has been steadily rising since they came out.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Anthar Thebess
807
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Posted - 2014.11.25 08:55:40 -
[130] - Quote
Prof about inflation? When i started playing you could buy Dread hull for 500mil on local market, i was not living in the drone regions. Since then : - there was slight nerf to npc bounty - boost to ratting ships dps - changes to production , that both raised and lowered minerals needs to build dreadnought. Hard to say now , but i don't expect that total change will be not bigger than 15% any way.
Currently the same dread hull cost 2.5bil.
Total Change 2bil.
Good enough? Remember that this 500mil price tag was local market , and people where very happy to sell those ships on this price.
PHOEBE Retrospective
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Anthar Thebess
807
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Posted - 2014.11.25 08:56:28 -
[131] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:Still looking for proofs of inflation
price of plex is proof. It has been steadily rising since they came out.
Eh .. don't link plex to isk sinks. Please.
Plex have unique value.
Edit. Just to remind you, plex at some point was isk sink, as you where buying similar codes from NPC for isk. If i remember correctly you could buy 2 months of game for 200 mil? So yes this kinds also proves how much isk lost value.
Still remember those isk spamers in each system :D
PHOEBE Retrospective
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
78
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Posted - 2014.11.25 09:01:02 -
[132] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:Still looking for proofs of inflation
Let me see if I can find some long term ore prices. That might be the best indicator of how much inflation (if any) has affected EvE as a whole.
Reaver, PLEX is a wierd animal. It gets hoarded and manipulated by players far too often for it to be a good indicator of inflation. If the price of PLEX has steadily risen, and the price of basic comodities hasn't, then it's the PLEX that's being screwed with. Measure inflation by the price of a loaf of bread, or cup of rice, not the price of a luxury car.
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
516
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Posted - 2014.11.25 09:20:39 -
[133] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:afkalt wrote:Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:PVP isn't an ISK sink. No money leaves the system when a ship is blown up. Destroyed modules need repurchased. Module repairs need effected. Ammunition is expended. Drones are lost. Modules, ammunition, and drones are all either found via loot. -- no ISK generated or lost to the system, or are manufactered -- slight sink for manufacturing fees. There are also fees for market transactions. Once again, this is not PVP. This is Industry and trade. The PVP pilot, if she just buys all the stuff, only pays a sink in trade fees. If she's using the stuff she found via looting the enemy, then she's contributed no ISK loss or gain to circulation. Her personal finances may go up and down, but the ISK in the system remained constant. PVP can lead to more industry and trade, and these lead to ISK sinks in manufacturing and trade fees. So while PVP doesn't actually generate or produce ISK into circulation, it can be a catalyst for other activities to do so. I can't really think of any fair way of taxing the PVPer specifically, let alone even want to try. Actually... scratch that. I guess war decs would count as a PVP-centric sink. --Gadget
Only to a point. MOST ammo in PvP is faction which tends to be bought with LP sinks. Repairs are a flat out sink. T2 mods have their share of sinks too. |
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
78
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Posted - 2014.11.25 09:28:00 -
[134] - Quote
http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/110224-tritanium-price-history/
Here's one example. Trit at 3.4 ISK in Spring of 2008, then a dip to 2.8 for a small period, but then a steady rise to 4.2 buy Spring of 2009. Currently it's at around 5.7 ISK.
This is the most basic building block, so it's an indicator of some inflation. Better yet are the posters' responses to the change. The dip was a noted anomaly even then, but after the dip the price steadily rose to what we have now. The game only stores up to a year, so I have to scour the internet for older screenshots.
I know that one instance doesn't make the rule, but I'll keep looking for older prices and for other minerals and edit them in this post.
If any have any screenshots of older mineral market graphs, please post them.
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
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Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
78
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Posted - 2014.11.25 09:43:13 -
[135] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:afkalt wrote:Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:PVP isn't an ISK sink. No money leaves the system when a ship is blown up. Destroyed modules need repurchased. Module repairs need effected. Ammunition is expended. Drones are lost. Modules, ammunition, and drones are all either found via loot. -- no ISK generated or lost to the system, or are manufactered -- slight sink for manufacturing fees. There are also fees for market transactions. Once again, this is not PVP. This is Industry and trade. The PVP pilot, if she just buys all the stuff, only pays a sink in trade fees. If she's using the stuff she found via looting the enemy, then she's contributed no ISK loss or gain to circulation. Her personal finances may go up and down, but the ISK in the system remained constant. PVP can lead to more industry and trade, and these lead to ISK sinks in manufacturing and trade fees. So while PVP doesn't actually generate or produce ISK into circulation, it can be a catalyst for other activities to do so. I can't really think of any fair way of taxing the PVPer specifically, let alone even want to try. Actually... scratch that. I guess war decs would count as a PVP-centric sink. --Gadget Only to a point. MOST ammo in PvP is faction which tends to be bought with LP sinks. Repairs are a flat out sink. T2 mods have their share of sinks too.
But that's an option. The PVPer could just as easily be using T2 or T1, or may have been given the ammo. The act of buying faction ammo on the market isn't a sink... well, except for the market fees.
I'll say again, PVP may lead to sinks, but isn't a sink in itself. The reason that this is an important distinction comes down to where changes would be made to open (or tighten) the sinks. How could you fairly do anything to PVP itself that would enable more or less cash from leaving the game? Paying a sink for being podded (because only players will pod others) and war deccing costs are the only things I can think of currently that are sinks directly from PVP combat, and the podding costs are going away on the 9th.
As for the things that PVP affects, like buying/making ammo and other things. Doing anything to PVP combat won't affect those all that much. At least not in the way of sinks.
--Gadget
--Gadget
Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
516
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Posted - 2014.11.25 10:09:41 -
[136] - Quote
The faction ammo sink is in the LP store cost the lister pays. Unless they are using tags I guess, I don't usually.
It was repairs from overheat (as I usually rep too). Overheat repairs get pricey fast. OH is usually reserved for PvPers. You can use nanite, but unless you're making your own the stations work out cheaper (but can still be eye watering). |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
787
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Posted - 2014.11.25 10:17:45 -
[137] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/110224-tritanium-price-history/
Here's one example. Trit at 3.4 ISK in Spring of 2008, then a dip to 2.8 for a small period, but then a steady rise to 4.2 buy Spring of 2009. Currently it's at around 5.7 ISK.
This is the most basic building block, so it's an indicator of some inflation. Better yet are the posters' responses to the change. The dip was a noted anomaly even then, but after the dip the price steadily rose to what we have now. The game only stores up to a year, so I have to scour the internet for older screenshots.
I know that one instance doesn't make the rule, but I'll keep looking for older prices and for other minerals and edit them in this post.
If any have any screenshots of older mineral market graphs, please post them.
--Gadget
Rising by that amount in 6 years is really not an excessive amount of inflation, every functioning market always has some level of inflation. one common belief (how true it is I'm not sure ) is that the actual value of the money you have halves every 10 years or so, which would put the trit inflation you quoted pretty much on normal market timescales.
To work out inflation you'd need to do it the same way our governments do with a 'typical shopping basket' list of items to act as a standard checkpoint. PLEX could *never* be considered a normal item in such a calculation and would therfore be completely excluded. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1711
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Posted - 2014.11.25 10:50:13 -
[138] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/110224-tritanium-price-history/
Here's one example. Trit at 3.4 ISK in Spring of 2008, then a dip to 2.8 for a small period, but then a steady rise to 4.2 buy Spring of 2009. Currently it's at around 5.7 ISK.
This is the most basic building block, so it's an indicator of some inflation. Better yet are the posters' responses to the change. The dip was a noted anomaly even then, but after the dip the price steadily rose to what we have now. The game only stores up to a year, so I have to scour the internet for older screenshots.
I know that one instance doesn't make the rule, but I'll keep looking for older prices and for other minerals and edit them in this post.
If any have any screenshots of older mineral market graphs, please post them.
--Gadget You do of course know that a number of changes have been made to the game and that those price changes can all be directly traced to a specific supply & demand change. Such as Trit quantities being increased in certain ores. Build requirements of certain classes of ships being made. Changes in reprocessing. And a lot of the spikes can be traced to Null sec battles.
The Mineral market has shown zero evidence of inflation, responding instead to pure supply & demand from game changes.
The last announcement on CCP for inflation was that we actually were experiencing deflation. And since then they have increased isk sinks more than isk faucets. |
wentrox
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.11.25 10:50:51 -
[139] - Quote
Remove the NPC Bounty completly. Yes! Feel the pain. You will only got small amount of isk by completing missions/anomalies. Make NPC drop more loot, yes, feel the gathering pain, but wait - the mobile tractors! Make the NPC corps buy comon tech1 equip/minerals/etc. Nulsec farmers will be in very high need of logistics.
No more isk from air. But it never be done. |
Ssabat Thraxx
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
1003
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Posted - 2014.11.25 10:54:39 -
[140] - Quote
Didnt read the whole thread, so pardon if it's already been mentioned, but an in-game casino would most certainly work. I read somewhere else that CCP said they couldnt do it due to gambling laws in some countries or something along those lines. I'm not sure if thats right (that they even said that) because back in the day the original EQ put in a casino to counter inflation (brought on by a currency duplicating exploit) and it worked marvelously. Just look at all the traffic Blink got, and now iwantisk and other sites get. Ppl luvs to gamble
\m/ O.o \m/
"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
787
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Posted - 2014.11.25 11:02:59 -
[141] - Quote
Ssabat Thraxx wrote: Ppl luvs to gamble
And remember folks...the house *always* wins... |
voetius
Quiet Days in Clichy
300
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Posted - 2014.11.25 11:17:45 -
[142] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Well thats the point why they are so expensive. Few cpu units here , few there ... and you can fit something better. Price of those modules is dictated by players mostly.
Every thing above those 32mil for Republic Fleet Distruptor or Scrambler is added by players.
Look at the Republic Fleet Point and Scrambler. They both cost the same in LP stores , yet on the market there is usually 40mil price difference between them.
If you make faction modules to cheap, T2 market will be affected.
Some work can be done ( like someone already stated before) to boost the isk cost of the modules in LP store at the cost of LP needed.
The price is dictated for most of the modules by the tag cost and that is determined by a combination of player pricing but more importantly by the floor on prices set by NPC buy orders. A simple way to let tag prices float downwards would be to remove NPC buy orders for tags. This would have the effect to reduce the price of faction guns and modules which could do with being more inline with T2 (in my opinion).
Another approach would be double the tag drop rate, this wouldn't screw over mission runners that run the anti-faction missions quite as much as removing NPC buy orders, but a combination of both would work as well.
COSMOS is another area that could do with a look at. Many of the modules are okay but the small drop rates on some bottleneck items mean cost to build is prohibitive. |
Anthar Thebess
807
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Posted - 2014.11.25 11:42:09 -
[143] - Quote
What you are stating will not change much . Lets look at the : Caldari Navy Vice Admiral Insignia I NPC buy price : 500k Player buy orders : 3.5kk
What happens if we remove or reduce NPC buy orders : nothing , players need this more than NPC, and pay much more for this. What happens if we double drop rate for those tags? Price will be reduced, but still those tags will be needed.
Isk for tags will still flow between people.
Yes some of the faction items will become less expensive for some time, they will be more often used , question is do we want to have more faction based fits that will outperform and in some cases replace T2 stuff for most of the people?
Example Isk sinks that are already in place: - SOV bill - LP store isk requirements - Production/ invention/ market fee - Ship insurance ( as long as ship don't die before insurance expires ) - Clone upgrade costs - Every isk spent on "Trash" bought from NPC - Repair costs on NPC stations.
In all of those cases you pay isk to NPC for item, or service.
Simple idea for next ISK sink. Currently rearing bill on sov station can be set to 0. Why we cannot boost this a bit, and again create NPC fee for all repairs , but to keep sov station bonus in some way the base NPC fee for repairs will be 25% of total fee you pay on NPC station. Every thing above this value goes to the wallet of station owner.
Will people start to use repair modules - yes. But people will pay for fixing all overheated modules.
PHOEBE Retrospective
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1991
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Posted - 2014.11.25 11:54:31 -
[144] - Quote
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:Reaver, PLEX is a wierd animal. It gets hoarded and manipulated by players far too often for it to be a good indicator of inflation. If the price of PLEX has steadily risen, and the price of basic comodities hasn't, then it's the PLEX that's being screwed with. Measure inflation by the price of a loaf of bread, or cup of rice, not the price of a luxury car.
--Gadget Well then I challenge anyone to find anything on the market that hasn't gone up in price over a 2 year+ interval at any point in the game's history. For every one you find, I'll give you a hundred that have.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Farsaidh's Freeborn
787
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Posted - 2014.11.25 12:05:36 -
[145] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:Reaver, PLEX is a wierd animal. It gets hoarded and manipulated by players far too often for it to be a good indicator of inflation. If the price of PLEX has steadily risen, and the price of basic comodities hasn't, then it's the PLEX that's being screwed with. Measure inflation by the price of a loaf of bread, or cup of rice, not the price of a luxury car.
--Gadget Well then I challenge anyone to find anything on the market that hasn't gone up in price over a 2 year+ interval at any point in the game's history. For every one you find, I'll give you a hundred that have.
But it doesn't matter if everything has gone up in price as long as it is in line with a level of inflation suitable for a healthy economy, it's only when inflation goes out of control that there is a problem and there is now evidence of it being out of control (ignoring plex which doesn't apply). |
Lidia Caderu
Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club
41
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Posted - 2014.11.25 12:13:48 -
[146] - Quote
So can somebody explain why PLEX got so high in price if its not influation? |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1992
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Posted - 2014.11.25 12:16:33 -
[147] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:But it doesn't matter if everything has gone up in price as long as it is in line with a level of inflation suitable for a healthy economy, it's only when inflation goes out of control that there is a problem and there is now evidence of it being out of control (ignoring plex which doesn't apply). We were responding to someone who asked for proof of inflation. I'm not saying the inflation is bad, I'm saying there definitely is inflation.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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elitatwo
Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team
472
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Posted - 2014.11.25 12:33:39 -
[148] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:-shortened- If you make faction modules to cheap, T2 market will be affected.
I hate to breake it to you but you are contradicting yourself here. Any faction item you get from any LP store removes isk - poof, gone!
What haz some market to do with what you are demanding we are finding solutions for?
Didn't you want to find a replacement isk sink?
Faction items are! Make them useful and affordable, there you go, isk sunk - kaput.
Nobody cares about moon poo but the moon poo people and moon poo doesn't create or remove isk but moon poo, ice products, minerals and plantetary poo.
signature
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1992
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Posted - 2014.11.25 12:47:29 -
[149] - Quote
I think he was saying that if faction items got too cheap, nobody would want tech 2 anymore. But there's a long ways to go before that happens. It's just kind of ret+írded when the faction variant costs a hundred times as much as tech 2 and actually has lower stats. Some faction items offer very strong advantages (Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer), and some are completely useless (Shadow Serpentis Large Blasters). It'd be nice if faction items were adjusted to offer bonuses more in line with their listed meta values, and then have their prices diminished a lot. If you cut their LP cost to 1/4th across the board, it would not trash the value of the LPs, on the contrary you might see as much as or more than a 300% increase in how often they are purchased and used because they'll start getting fitted onto throw-away ships instead of only on carebear blingships.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
516
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Posted - 2014.11.25 12:54:46 -
[150] - Quote
Remember balancing screws with prices too. For example all the faction shield boosters got a big hike in a drive to improve local tanking; deadspace did not. Thus faction prices climb and deadspace drop.
It is fatal to ignore balancing when looking at price rises - a classic example here would be the gila or worm. |
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