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ISK SINKS WE NEED - Post your ideas here.

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Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:07:46 - [1] - Quote This game really needs good isk sink. Currently economy is slowly falling because prices are growing and growing. Reasons for current situations are many : - ships where boosted , more dps = faster and more efficient ratting - smart bombing ratting fleets are all around renter space became quite common - ships are dying ( each lost ship don't remove isk from game, just create it from the air ) - etc Some drastic measures needs to be put in place. This also have to be done without harming any current system - like LP Stores, or missions. Please post your ideas here , maybe some Dev will look at this and put some of your ideas into actions PHOEBE Retrospective
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:08:12 - [2] - Quote Some of my ideas to start. 1. SOV SYSTEM. Sov bills should be increased at least 3 times. This was not touched since 2008 , and since then isk lost its value few times. 2. RATS, RATS When you kill them , something bad happens. Yes cutting bounty will hurt wallet of many players. In return i suggest that rats will drop more stuff you can use or reprocess. Will this hurt miners ? In some way, but it could also be some remedy for nullsec industry at the same time. Eg. Bounty cut by 50%, and loot you can find in a wreck doubled. PHOEBE Retrospective
Iris Bravemount Eldar Army La Division Bleue 346	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:36:07 - [3] - Quote 1) Remove insurance Lore reason: They're bankrupt, we've been scamming them for too long. Actual reason: Player ship destruction shouldn't be an ISK faucet. 2) Double the ISK price of LP store items (and sec for tags) Lore reason: They adjusted their prices for inflation. Consumer associations are protesting, but they have better lawyers. Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks. 3) Make NPC-owned gate travel cost some ISK. Lore reason: The owners decided that the maintenance and operation costs should be paid for by the users. Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks and it would make Jita price dictation harder. Also rewards finding and using WH shortcuts. Sovspace would have no cost by default, but gates would increase sov bills and sovholders can set a usage price (up to a high but reasonable limit to prevent abuse). Edit: maybe make it proportional to ship size, to avoid penalizing new players too much. 4) Make the broker fee of market order modification minimum a set amount of 2.5% of total items price +2.5% of individual item price. Lore reason: Greedy brokers got greedier. Not much you can do. Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks and we don't like 0.01 isk wars. "I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1372	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:37:06 - [4] - Quote Higher transaction fee/taxes on the market.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 498	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:40:19 - [5] - Quote This feels like a whine about plex prices in disguise.
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.21 13:53:08 - [6] - Quote afkalt wrote: This feels like a whine about plex prices in disguise. My alts don't like plex prices, but this is not about this. But about flooding game with isk. I can easily earn 1bil , but for a new player thats totally different. High isk prices are hitting new players , not the "old guard" As for other posts : - Higher transaction taxes , ok but maybe for those that likes to play the 0.01 isk game. Not 100 isk for changing the order but % of the price. - double isk price of LP store items . Yes this could be good, but, for example me and many other people have tons of LP store items. This could just double the value of stuff we have. Yea! PHOEBE Retrospective
Iris Bravemount Eldar Army La Division Bleue 346	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:26:05 - [7] - Quote afkalt wrote: This feels like a whine about plex prices in disguise. > Accuses people of disguised discourse > Post with an anonymous alt "I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Iris Bravemount Eldar Army La Division Bleue 346	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:27:35 - [8] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: - double isk price of LP store items . Yes this could be good, but, for example me and many other people have tons of LP store items. This could just double the value of stuff we have. Yea! Not really, unless you hold on to them long enough for the market price to catch up, and this can be very long. "I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10682	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:35:54 - [9] - Quote Rather than try and create more isk sinks, why not go after one of the greatest instances of isk faucets? Nerf, or completely remove insurance. It really is not justified in it's existence any longer. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:45:40 - [10] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Rather than try and create more isk sinks, why not go after one of the greatest instances of isk faucets? Nerf, or completely remove insurance. It really is not justified in it's existence any longer. Insurance is good sometimes. More than once i got my self into position ... 2mil left on a walled. My ship is dying , and im in a middle of the dictor bubble. Heh , i will have isk to upgrade my pod. On the other hand ... pod upgrades will be no more. So lets keep insurance payout for accounts where total asset value < 3b. Remember that insurance is paid when ship dies. When you move out your smartbombing fleet and clear a heaven every 2 minutes ( including warp time ) this makes more damage to eve . 30 havens per hour , 35mil in bounty each ( not including stuff you can get from rats, and faction spawns ) PHOEBE Retrospective

Iris Bravemount Eldar Army La Division Bleue 346	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:49:29 - [11] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Remember that insurance is paid when ship dies. When you move out your smartbombing fleet and clear a heaven every 2 minutes ( including warp time ) this makes more damage to eve . 30 havens per hour , 35mil in bounty each ( not including stuff you can get from rats, and faction spawns ) I have literally no clue what you're trying to say here. "I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10684	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:53:26 - [12] - Quote There will be no more clone upgrades soon. That is the only remaining justification for the existence of insurance in this game. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:53:45 - [13] - Quote Iris Bravemount wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Remember that insurance is paid when ship dies. When you move out your smartbombing fleet and clear a heaven every 2 minutes ( including warp time ) this makes more damage to eve . 30 havens per hour , 35mil in bounty each ( not including stuff you can get from rats, and faction spawns ) I have literally no clue what you're trying to say here. That ship insurance is less damaging to eve than excessive isk flow from ratting. Dead Battleship = 100mil payout = 3 cleared sanctums. PHOEBE Retrospective
Tabyll Altol Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two 46	Posted - 2014.11.21 14:55:20 - [14] - Quote Do not remove Insurance, remove the basic which you get even if you don-¦t insure your ship. Reduce the LP farming of the FW militias. Reduce payment in highsec, spread the Lv4 Missions not so close make it one L4 Agent (2 Lv3-¦s, 4 Lv2-¦s) for each NPC-Corp. Make the belts respawn a little dynamic, so that intensive miners have to move around. Let the player destroy/control more Corpstations/stargates. Not only the poses. Make bountyhunter worth it-¦s name. Make FW fighting over a dynamic Area not a static place. Remove Incursions of the highsec (it seems senceless that Concord is okay with sansha invading their systems) Add more Faction/pirate ships.
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10685	Posted - 2014.11.21 15:04:23 - [15] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: That ship insurance is less damaging to eve than excessive isk flow from ratting. Dead Battleship = 100mil payout = 3 cleared sanctums. And one of them is actually playing the game, and the other is a 100% passive isk faucet. Income flowing into the game is acceptable. And like I said above, the only reason insurance is still justified any longer is clone costs, which are being removed. It has no justification for it's existence. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.21 15:06:22 - [16] - Quote LP FW farming is not the big issue. I don't know much about FW, but i think they get mostly LP not the isk. I think the same situation is in case of the incursions. Base payouts are in LP? If we relay want to help we need to limit the places where the isk is being generated and introduce places where this isk will be pulled from market. For example currently some ship skins are being bought by ARUM ( i know that CCP will not change this, as this generate income ) but just for example. If you could buy ship skin using ISK , then all this isk is removed from the system. The same way applies to all kind of bills, especially sov bills. PHOEBE Retrospective
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.21 15:08:27 - [17] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: That ship insurance is less damaging to eve than excessive isk flow from ratting. Dead Battleship = 100mil payout = 3 cleared sanctums. And one of them is actually playing the game, and the other is a 100% passive isk faucet. Income flowing into the game is acceptable. And like I said above, the only reason insurance is still justified any longer is clone costs, which are being removed. It has no justification for it's existence. I agree about removing ship insurance, but we have to put some protection on the new players. Loosing a cruiser can be devastating hit for them, and we all know that they will mount EM hards, and use missiles and guns on their ships while trying to hit Gurista rats. PHOEBE Retrospective
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 625	Posted - 2014.11.21 15:19:46 - [18] - Quote 1. Get rid of insurance. 2. Do something to nerf smartbomb ratting. It could be as simple as having multiple spawn points in all anomalies. 3. Reduce all rat bounties and incursion payouts by some percentage. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Zimmer Jones Aliastra Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2014.11.21 15:22:53 - [19] - Quote actuarial tables for insurance. if i tried to scam insurance as much as gankers, blobbers, botters/afk'ers etc do IRL, i'd have to be paying 10x as much or even be denied insurance. parking fees for jita, sucked out of your wallet by the tick after undock delay. spam fees in jita. you got something to say, pay for it, eve ain't 'murica. gate tolls for congested systems, for que jumping reasons. nullsec tollbooths, npc protection rackets, wartime tarrifs/surcharges so many that i'm too drunk to write up.
Debora Tsung The Investment Bankers Guild 1337	Posted - 2014.11.21 15:26:30 - [20] - Quote Docking fee for all NPC stations, to be paid upon docking and every 15 minutes thereafter. Once your wallet runs ou, you'll be expelled from the station ofc. Stupidity should be a bannable offense. Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance.

Antillie Sa'Kan Forging Industries Silent Infinity 770	Posted - 2014.11.21 15:50:15 - [21] - Quote Iris Bravemount wrote: 1) Remove insurance Lore reason: They're bankrupt, we've been scamming them for too long. Actual reason: Player ship destruction shouldn't be an ISK faucet. 2) Double the ISK price of LP store items (and sec for tags) Lore reason: They adjusted their prices for inflation. Consumer associations are protesting, but they have better lawyers. Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks. 3) Make NPC-owned gate travel cost some ISK. Lore reason: The owners decided that the maintenance and operation costs should be paid for by the users. Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks and it would make Jita price dictation harder. Also rewards finding and using WH shortcuts. Sovspace would have no cost by default, but gates would increase sov bills and sovholders can set a usage price (up to a high but reasonable limit to prevent abuse). Edit: maybe make it proportional to ship size, to avoid penalizing new players too much. 4) Make the broker fee of market order modification minimum a set amount of 2.5% of total items price +2.5% of individual item price. Lore reason: Greedy brokers got greedier. Not much you can do. Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks and we don't like 0.01 isk wars. 1) Good idea. Maybe limit insurance to toons less than 90 days old. So new players aren't hit too hard from ship losses while they are still learning. 2) Good idea. 3) I'm not sure about this. I don't think people should be able to strand themselves somewhere with no ability to make ISK or leave the system they are in without said ISK. Maybe if pods were always free. 4) I'm not sure market fees are the right way to do it. This just attacks the players that move ISK around instead of the ones that actually make it. I think bumping NPC corp tax up by 1% would be more helpful.
Antillie Sa'Kan Forging Industries Silent Infinity 770	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:00:57 - [22] - Quote Tabyll Altol wrote: Do not remove Insurance, remove the basic which you get even if you don-¦t insure your ship. Reduce the LP farming of the FW militias. Reduce payment in highsec, spread the Lv4 Missions not so close make it one L4 Agent (2 Lv3-¦s, 4 Lv2-¦s) for each NPC-Corp. Make the belts respawn a little dynamic, so that intensive miners have to move around. Let the player destroy/control more Corpstations/stargates. Not only the poses. Make bountyhunter worth it-¦s name. Make FW fighting over a dynamic Area not a static place. Remove Incursions of the highsec (it seems senceless that Concord is okay with sansha invading their systems) Add more Faction/pirate ships. 1) Insurance is a terrible idea in the EVE of today. It needs to be removed or limited to characters less than a certain age. 2) LP is not ISK so this will do nothing. In fact LP stores help remove ISK from the game. 3) Reducing the number of L4 agents in hisec will just make for more crowed systems. Most of the income from L4's actually comes from LP, which is actually an ISK sink. In the end L4 missions do not contribute to inflation as much as you might think. Mining does not generate ISK so messing with miners is pointless here. 4) This is interesting but not really related to ISK sinks unless there are sov bills involved. 5) Bounty hunting, for all its brokenness, does not create or destroy ISK, it only moves it around. 6) How would this help? 7) I see no reason to deny hi sec players an entire catagory of content. However moving more of the payout from incursions from ISK to LP would help. 8) How would this help?
Anhenka Daktaklakpak. 648	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:19:10 - [23] - Quote So an anonymous player posts saying that we need isk sinks cause there's too much isk, and demands that the mechanic that helps keep PvP happening in the game (Insurance) be gutted, that sov costs be tripled, ratting income be halved... Effectively gutting the only things that makes living and fighting in nullsec or lowsec worthwhile. Also special posting to make sure that the only mechanic he cares about "Missions and LP stores" not be touched. Here's my proposal: Keep NPC pirates BS and BC, as well as ships of opposing factions from the empire, out of Concord controlled space. Faction Police, Concord, regulated gates... There are plenty of mechanics by which which this could happen. Reducing missions to Lv 1-3 missions that only spawn frigs, dessies, and cruisers would cut down on the massive spigot that is hordes of mission runners running missions, forcing them to either go to low/null to run their missions, or accept the lower pay of a capsuleer beat cop policing up the small ships that the empires couldn't completely stamp out. Or on a slightly less "My way or the highway" proposed action, you could drastically decrease the amount of ISK gained by shooting rats in highsec and missions (to 10% or so), and implement an LP reward from the Empire owner for cleaning up their space. Kill a rat in a mission, get Amarr Navy LP if missioning in Amarr space. Since LP Stores are isk sinks instead of faucets, this wuld rapidly switch the highsec mission faucet into a sink instead. P.S: A degree of inflation is expected in a system like EVE's, PLEX is the only item that is displaying massively different behavior than the rest of the item basket. Don't judge the entire system by the one item with special value. Aside from PLEX's, the rest of the item basket is relatively stable, certainly not indicating any special drastic need for slashing ingame income.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 464	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:21:46 - [24] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: I can easily earn 1bil , but for a new player thats totally different. High isk prices are hitting new players , not the "old guard" Cool story! I can "make" one billion in somewhere the range of three or four weeks and have no idea what you are talking about? You want to nerf people, please go ahead, it's much apprectiated. Now if we are talking isk sinks, just consider things that are not "forced upon" us but choices we are willing to make. Just two weeks ago Catherine had an amazing idea about faction guns being affordable, usefull but not overpowered in a way that would increase powercreep or being op. If we could "reconsider" faction items to be more affordable in LP cost and isk but ditch the faction tag collection issue I am pretty sure that they would be more desired to be used. Anthar, when you talk about breaking ships create isk, they are also a mineral sink. Despite what 00-folks are thinking, super may be a large one-time sink but not as much as the smaller craft that are destroyed every hour of every day. That "free-marketing" thing that is going on right is sickening me worse than an Ebola outbreak in Europe. Once upon a time we had this base-price of all things which was a good thing. Everyone around new exactly how much isk you have to have to buy x ship and fit it. Now people that are in dire need of a gigantic nerf bat are selling plex like candy for one billion. Is this good? No it is not it is an isk-power creep. signature
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 970	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:25:10 - [25] - Quote -crew wages -ship maintenance Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
Iris Bravemount Eldar Army La Division Bleue 347	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:25:25 - [26] - Quote Antillie Sa'Kan wrote: 3) I'm not sure about this. I don't think people should be able to strand themselves somewhere with no ability to make ISK or leave the system they are in without said ISK. Maybe if pods were always free. 4) I'm not sure market fees are the right way to do it. This just attacks the players that move ISK around instead of the ones that actually make it. I think bumping NPC corp tax up by 1% would be more helpful. The gate fee could be based on ship mass, making pod travel super cheap. It would also make more sense lore-wise. The people who move ISK around do make shitloads of it, so taxing them removes a shitload of ISK from the game. "I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Ix Method Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 321	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:26:27 - [27] - Quote Kick incursions in the baws, less isk and less whining about shinies in the Tug. Goddamn, I'm good. Oh yeah, semi-permanent attribute boosters are the future, embrace them for their genius and all your isk sink needs Travelling at the speed of love.
X Gallentius Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop 2640	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:49:16 - [28] - Quote o Remove ship insurance. (Not a sink, but a tightening of the faucet). Every corporation in Eve should make a profit - even the insurance companies. o X%/year "wealth tax" on isk. Somebody has to pay for jump gate maintenance... o Variable rat bounties. CONCORD adjusts rat bounties based on overall "pool" of isk it has to pay them out. If too many people are ratting, then the price of rat bounties drops. Done.
Jackson Apollo Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:07:32 - [29] - Quote +1 for non-market isk sinks the last 30 days cost me plenty in fees and taxes. I think that's quite enough. I don't buy insurance so nerf that however you want. Gate fees are stupid because, well, that's stupid. Unless I can warp from Jita to Rens without gates (probably ~5 days in a mammoth ~17 hours in a leopard.) ISK sinks should be a thing you somehow op-in for (like buying LP stuff or losing a ship to a gank fleet) using gates is mandatory therefore should not cost ISK. So basically: Nerf ISK but only if it wont nerf my isk
Anhenka Daktaklakpak. 648	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:11:25 - [30] - Quote Jackson Apollo wrote: So basically: Nerf ISK but only if it wont nerf my isk Basically sums up every single damn post in this cesspool of a thread. Not that anyone yet has actually stopped to ask if there is a need for a massive isk sink. Plex prices are not the sole price markers of the larger market as a whole after all.

Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 121	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:18:23 - [31] - Quote Harvey James wrote: -crew wages -ship maintenance When I hear the word "crew" about eve, I always think of a feature of which is available but not implemented yet. I know it is there, but it has no use. I hope, someday, we have increasingly higher wages for veteran crews. That way, people will have more stuff to do when they decide to watch ship-turning counter. _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
Antillie Sa'Kan Forging Industries Silent Infinity 770	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:41:03 - [32] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Not that anyone yet has actually stopped to ask if there is a need for a massive isk sink. Plex prices are not the sole price markers of the larger market as a whole after all. This is an excellent point. PLEX prices are not a reason to make changes to the overall economy. As far as I can tell PLEX prices are going up much faster than the rate of inflation. While this may indicate a speculation bubble, I don't see how it really matters.
Hopelesshobo Tactical Nuclear Penguin's 354	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:46:40 - [33] - Quote Well, instead of trying to find the 1 source of isk faucet or sink that is causing our economy to fail, why not just increase the isk sinks by 5% across the board, and decrease the isk faucets by 5% across the board. Suddenly, we now have 10% less isk inflation in the game, and everyone gets hit equally when their activities are printing isk in the game. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Amarisen Gream Ark University ArK Alliance 55	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:49:53 - [34] - Quote I could see something on the insurance side that uses a "fixed/based" rate based on the minerals the ship is made from (best TE/ME build)... I'm sure a what/if program could (I don't code but w/e) that could look at the average cost of minerals and charge you say a % of that. the pay out would never be more than half the ships hull est. value. xoxo Amarisen Gream
Anhenka Daktaklakpak. 649	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:20:02 - [35] - Quote Amarisen Gream wrote: I could see something on the insurance side that uses a "fixed/based" rate based on the minerals the ship is made from (best TE/ME build)... I'm sure a what/if program could (I don't code but w/e) that could look at the average cost of minerals and charge you say a % of that. the pay out would never be more than half the ships hull est. value. The issue with suggestions regarding nerfing insurance is that they assume that inflation is more of an issue than people not PvPing. The game runs on PvP. You buy a ship, insure a ship, run out and in said ship. You then take the money you got from the insurance and turn around and can immediately afford most of another ship. This money is what keeps demand for miners/inventors/producers products high. Anyone remember when Trit was barely over 1 isk a few years ago when the map was incredibly stagnant? I do. This basic cycle drives the market, keep PvP players in business, and lowers the barrier for conflicts to occur. Risking a dread fleet when you can recoup 2/3 the cost of a fitted dread when it dies is a hell of a lot easier than risking a dread that has no payout. It's as if the risk of fielding them suddenly triples. If lowers the barrier for "worth fighting over" Got a________ moon you want to start a fight over? Is it worth risking a fleet that's a 3 bil loss to replace in the case of a total whelp over? Sure. Why not. Is it worth risking a 10 bil (the exact same ships and # of people mind you) to fight over? Naaaah, ** that. Eve inflation is a questionable problem at best. By questionable I mean in if it's a problem at all. Even healthy RL economies consider a certain amount of constant inflation to be healthy. And RL don't flip flip their and start cutting/raising taxes by half jsut because one commodity (lets say gold) increases at 4x the rate of inflation. So is inflation an issue? MAYBE** Is it as big of an issue as creating a major deterrent to PvP in Eve? Not a chance in hell.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1378	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:49:29 - [36] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Amarisen Gream wrote: I could see something on the insurance side that uses a "fixed/based" rate based on the minerals the ship is made from (best TE/ME build)... I'm sure a what/if program could (I don't code but w/e) that could look at the average cost of minerals and charge you say a % of that. the pay out would never be more than half the ships hull est. value. The issue with suggestions regarding nerfing insurance is that they assume that inflation is more of an issue than people not PvPing. The game runs on PvP. You buy a ship, insure a ship, run out and in said ship. You then take the money you got from the insurance and turn around and can immediately afford most of another ship. This money is what keeps demand for miners/inventors/producers products high. Anyone remember when Trit was barely over 1 isk a few years ago when the map was incredibly stagnant? I do. This basic cycle drives the market, keep PvP players in business, and lowers the barrier for conflicts to occur. Risking a dread fleet when you can recoup 2/3 the cost of a fitted dread when it dies is a hell of a lot easier than risking a dread that has no payout. It's as if the risk of fielding them suddenly triples. If lowers the barrier for "worth fighting over" Got a________ moon you want to start a fight over? Is it worth risking a fleet that's a 3 bil loss to replace in the case of a total whelp over? Sure. Why not. Is it worth risking a 10 bil (the exact same ships and # of people mind you) to fight over? Naaaah, ** that. Eve inflation is a questionable problem at best. By questionable I mean in if it's a problem at all. Even healthy RL economies consider a certain amount of constant inflation to be healthy. And RL don't flip flip their and start cutting/raising taxes by half jsut because one commodity (lets say gold) increases at 4x the rate of inflation. So is inflation an issue? MAYBE** Is it as big of an issue as creating a major deterrent to PvP in Eve? Not a chance in hell. I'd have to agree with this. Determining if inflation is a problem first and applying fix only if needed would be a better course of action.
Agondray Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces 159	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:06:36 - [37] - Quote Iris Bravemount wrote: 1) Remove insurance Lore reason: They're bankrupt, we've been scamming them for too long. Actual reason: Player ship destruction shouldn't be an ISK faucet. 2) Double the ISK price of LP store items (and sec for tags) Lore reason: They adjusted their prices for inflation. Consumer associations are protesting, but they have better lawyers. Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks. 3) Make NPC-owned gate travel cost some ISK. Lore reason: The owners decided that the maintenance and operation costs should be paid for by the users. Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks and it would make Jita price dictation harder. Also rewards finding and using WH shortcuts. Sovspace would have no cost by default, but gates would increase sov bills and sovholders can set a usage price (up to a high but reasonable limit to prevent abuse). Edit: maybe make it proportional to ship size, to avoid penalizing new players too much. 4) Make the broker fee of market order modification minimum a set amount of 2.5% of total items price +2.5% of individual item price. Lore reason: Greedy brokers got greedier. Not much you can do. Actual reason: We need moar ISK sinks and we don't like 0.01 isk wars. removing insurance will just keep isk from being injected to someone that decided to use insurance to replace their ship, also it only works for t1 ships. for the people that do use it (most of eve doesn't) if they lose their ship they can get a new one if they didnt have a bankroll saved up IE you buy a mega and in the process of missioning to a better ship or mods, you die horribly but you had insurance you can get a new mega and have to replace modules, instead restarting from a frigate or how ever much you had before your mega met an untimely end. I would go for if you dont insure you get 0 back and not 50% default with no insurace maybe Also losing a ship is not an isk sink, CCP totes that most of the market is player controlled (i hear 90% figures in empire) based on your location, in outpost its 100% player controlled and theres even a higher percentage in null npc. But unless you buy something seeded by a npc (which most of the time you dont) the ISK just changes hands from 1 player to another minus some tax. "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Cyndrogen Angels Of Life 634	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:28:24 - [38] - Quote I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. Eve needs MORE players. Players drive the economy, offer better choices to get more people in game and doing something useful. DUST is free, Eve online still has an antiquated subscription model which doesn't really offer much in terms of value other then access to the game. I would like to see a store with FITTED, yes FITTED ships that players could purchase so I can invite friends and play a session. Basically it's like the old arcade games, you can pay a quarter to fly a fitted ship, you lose it you pay another quarter. Just like arcade machines.
Antillie Sa'Kan Forging Industries Silent Infinity 772	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:39:28 - [39] - Quote Cyndrogen wrote: I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. Eve needs MORE players. Players drive the economy, offer better choices to get more people in game and doing something useful. DUST is free, Eve online still has an antiquated subscription model which doesn't really offer much in terms of value other then access to the game. I would like to see a store with FITTED, yes FITTED ships that players could purchase so I can invite friends and play a session. Basically it's like the old arcade games, you can pay a quarter to fly a fitted ship, you lose it you pay another quarter. Just like arcade machines. lol no.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 503	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:06:41 - [40] - Quote Antillie Sa'Kan wrote: Anhenka wrote: Not that anyone yet has actually stopped to ask if there is a need for a massive isk sink. Plex prices are not the sole price markers of the larger market as a whole after all. This is an excellent point. PLEX prices are not a reason to make changes to the overall economy. As far as I can tell PLEX prices are going up much faster than the rate of inflation. While this may indicate a speculation bubble, I don't see how it really matters. Correct, as I somewhat glibly pointed out earlier. I dont understand why people get antsy about inflation in games, so long as stuff drops from rats even newbies are still on the same basic playing field. The only people inflation burns are people on long breaks with large liquid stashes.

Silky Cyno School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 52	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:19:44 - [41] - Quote We can rename eve to nickel and dime you to death online.
13kr1d1 Hedion University Amarr Empire 80	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:25:46 - [42] - Quote Clone death costs. At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
Zmikund Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 41	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:41:17 - [43] - Quote Some new and very expensive stuff for LP stores could be nice ... maybe genolution implant set, t2 capital mods etc ...
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1702	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:18:15 - [44] - Quote The market disagrees that inflation is taking place. Plex may be rising due to supply & demand, this does not mean inflation is happening. At last report we had slight deflation AND since then we have had a huge sink in the form of manufacturing introduced. So before suggesting additional sinks or nerfs of faucets, please produce evidence we need them.
Lyra Gerie Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 41	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:39:48 - [45] - Quote With ship painting a possibility I would love to see that cost a solid amount for each paint job applied. Say 5-10% the cost of the ship. Then you can be sure that every time someone loses a painted ship they are truly destroying someones hard earned isk.
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 3094	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:48:34 - [46] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: The market disagrees that inflation is taking place. Plex may be rising due to supply & demand, this does not mean inflation is happening. At last report we had slight deflation AND since then we have had a huge sink in the form of manufacturing introduced. So before suggesting additional sinks or nerfs of faucets, please produce evidence we need them. This. OP has yet to present any evidence that there is significant inflation in the economy or any real reason why we need more ISK sinks. PLEX prices too high for you? Stop being cheap and pay a subscription instead of running all your accounts on PLEX. Reduce the demand a bit. Or buy some PLEX and sell it - increase the supply. Or do both. If more people paid their own subscriptions or sold PLEX the price would start to decrease. Instead we have people running 6 alts on PLEX, very few people selling them and ludicrously high prices.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 77	Posted - 2014.11.22 04:05:57 - [47] - Quote I've been thinking about this for a bit. With the soon-to-be loss of med-clone upgrades as a sink, something should at least replace it. I like the gate toll idea actually. If I were to implement it, then the charge would be based on the AU of the jump with some part of it based on the standings of the pilot to the owner of the gates. Maybe with a skill later on to lower costs? The charge would actually be rather light, maybe no more that maybe 1000 ISK at most for the longest jump with the worst standings. With good standings and short jumps, I can see around 1-200 ISK per jump. Pods and rookie ships would be exempt from this charge. This would allow for someone who is completely spacepoor to start from scratch. This would take a small amount of ISK out of the game from each player using the gates, but would add up to remove a decent amount from the game overall. Plus, it can be circumvented by those who decide that the convenience of the gates isn't worth the toll: wormhole travel, jumpclones, jumpships, travelling via pod or rookie ship, and I'm sure there are other ways. Being able to avoid the gates is good in my book, because it allows choices for the player. Those who might be hurt by this would be the freighter pilot -- but they can roll the expense into the the products being sold. Actually this applies to any pilot needing a great deal of jumps per day. However, I don't believe, that beyond the initial knee-jerk reaction of players to such a change, there would really be all that much of a difference in income for the pilot/manufacturer/miner or what have you. The tax is designed to be as little as possible to the individual. A mission runner is likely to spend much more on ammo in a salvo or two than his jumping for the whole day. I can also see this as something that the corp tax could be used for in PC corps. Just turn your trip ticket into the CEO for reimbursement --Gadget
Jackson Apollo Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2014.11.22 06:10:23 - [48] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Actually this applies to any pilot needing a great deal of jumps per day. FU buddy. I can make 150-200 jumps per day. I already pay enough for that right. EVE is already my second job (granted a job I like as much as my RL job). I rather see all ships pay for gas so that it hits EVERYONE EQUALLY. (<---also stupid, also not really everyone equally, just more equally than stupid gate fees) LEAVE MY ISK ALONE! (<---best idea)
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 464	Posted - 2014.11.22 06:35:15 - [49] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: I've been thinking about this for a bit. You shouldn't have.. Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: With the soon-to-be loss of med-clone upgrades as a sink, something should at least replace it... Why? signature
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 77	Posted - 2014.11.22 06:38:19 - [50] - Quote Jackson Apollo wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Actually this applies to any pilot needing a great deal of jumps per day. FU buddy. I can make 150-200 jumps per day. I already pay enough for that right. EVE is already my second job (granted a job I like as much as my RL job). I rather see all ships pay for gas so that it hits EVERYONE EQUALLY. (<---also stupid, also not really everyone equally, just more equally than stupid gate fees) LEAVE MY ISK ALONE! (<---best idea) Really, sweetie. A direct attack? You have no 'rights' in EvE. CCP can change the rules as they see fit. They can ban you for anything they want. Scratch that. You have ONE right. You can Just. Not. Play. As for my musings, the ISK amount was a random number that looked small on my end. If this idea were ever put into place, I'm sure CCP would take a good look at just who were using the gates: number of pilots and jumps, areas, ship types, and maybe even how often. They would then create some algorithm for the final toll. Also, I forgot to add ship type to my little calculation. I think that smaller ships would pay less. Classes might be frigs/destroyers, cruisers/BC's Battleships, Capitals while industrial ships would get a discount. After looking at it a second time (and without any actual data), my gut tells me that the actual toll would be much smaller than what I had originally threw in. --Gadget

Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 77	Posted - 2014.11.22 06:47:50 - [51] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: I've been thinking about this for a bit. You shouldn't have.. Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: With the soon-to-be loss of med-clone upgrades as a sink, something should at least replace it... Why? /shrug One of the problems in academia. I can't help but to think about things As for why the replacement. This is the purpose of this thread, right? Maybe the Economy will survive quite well without that extra sink, maybe it won't. Doesn't hurt to have a few ideas in mind should rampant inflation become a problem. It's nice to be proactive. Thought costs us nothing. I'd rather have a few unneeded ideas in the works rather than discover EvE has become space Zimbabwe. --Gadget
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.22 08:17:18 - [52] - Quote Stop linking this thread to Plex prices. Plex are not usual item in eve. Players don't produce them and they don't drop any where from PVE activity. Plex price will be not affected by this. If we cut isk generation by 50% and plex price drops by 50% it will really don't change any thing. Base value will be still the same. Yes this game needs new players. But this inflation easily kills their initial experience. PHOEBE Retrospective
Adrie Atticus Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion 564	Posted - 2014.11.22 14:42:51 - [53] - Quote Increase ISK costs of items in LP store but keep LP costs the same. This'll drive up e.g. implant prices and not sure if this is desirable. I heard there's something happening in the implant/HW/booster world so I'd wait for that to see what happens. Jump clones could to pay a small rent (installation cost per week?) or install cost could be bumped to 1-10 Mil. Base broker fees multiplied by 3 or 5. Insurance cost tied to how much you've cashed out, maybe a linear f(x)=ln(x) scale on a moving 30-day window. Only payouts would affect this and base payments for uninsured ships would not affect this. Base insurance costs could be removed. Reprocessing/refinery base tax, maybe 5 isk per 1m3. This has a chance of rising the prices of goos by some degree but would be a permanent raise in expenses. This would come down to about 900k per hour in refinery charges with an orca boosted miner. Slight dip in ISK/h but not massive. Or just tax EVERYTHING in hisec and lowsec, let station owners tax as freely as they now can in nullsec.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 653	Posted - 2014.11.22 15:59:07 - [54] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Stop linking this thread to Plex prices. Plex are not usual item in eve. Players don't produce them and they don't drop any where from PVE activity. Plex price will be not affected by this. If we cut isk generation by 50% and plex price drops by 50% it will really don't change any thing. Base value will be still the same. Yes this game needs new players. But this inflation easily kills their initial experience. What inflation? If you are not using plex's as a thing to point to that "OMG LOOK AT INFLATION", then what are you pointing at? Because a Rupture is roughly 1 mil more than it was when I purchased my first rupture FIVE YEARS AGO! Dreadnaughts seem to cost about the same as they always have, same with carriers. Mineral baskets are as always fluctuating, on a slightly higher than expected due to consumption and speculation about the fledgling wars in nullsec. Battleships cost considerable more, but that's mainly because the the mineral production requirement changes when they underwent tieracide. Everyone's going "Oh let's do this to fix inflation" "This would work great as a drastic sink to curb inflation" "Blah blah blah solve inflation" WHAT INFLATION?? Can someone for the love of Cthulu please point me to a single source that indicates that EVE is undergoing inflation AT ALL? Cause I'm not seeing it.
NFain Quantum Singularities WormHole Occupation and Resource Exploitation 103	Posted - 2014.11.22 16:31:49 - [55] - Quote Plex4insurance?
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 3094	Posted - 2014.11.22 17:32:37 - [56] - Quote Do Dr. Eyjog and his team still publish reports on the EVE economy? If not, that's too bad. If so, perhaps some of the Chicken Littles in this thread (and the others like it) should read them before playing Amateur Armchair Economist and declaring that the proverbial sky is falling. As an additional hint: When the price of an item increases because it costs more to make (battleships/battlecruisers requiring significantly more minerals to manufacture), that is not inflation. Inflation is the price of everything going up simply because there's too much money in circulation for any of it to be worth anything. That is not what we have here in EVE.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 654	Posted - 2014.11.22 17:36:29 - [57] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Do Dr. Eyjog and his team still publish reports on the EVE economy? If not, that's too bad. If so, perhaps some of the Chicken Littles in this thread (and the others like it) should read them before playing Amateur Armchair Economist and declaring that the proverbial sky is falling. Eyjog took a position at some prestigious Icelandic University a while back. Your point still applies though, there are a ton of people here with solutions in search of a problem that nobody has shown exists yet.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 505	Posted - 2014.11.22 18:30:43 - [58] - Quote I don't buy inflation hurting newbies. All the NPC drops, exploration junk, minerals spike....big deal their relative income is the same. It only actually hurts direct isk injection: bounties (and WH buy orders).
Mharius Skjem Opacity Circles 159	Posted - 2014.11.22 22:41:29 - [59] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: This game really needs good isk sink. Currently economy is slowly falling because prices are growing and growing. Reasons for current situations are many : - ships where boosted , more dps = faster and more efficient ratting - smart bombing ratting fleets are all around renter space became quite common - ships are dying ( each lost ship don't remove isk from game, just create it from the air ) - etc Some drastic measures needs to be put in place. This also have to be done without harming any current system - like LP Stores, or missions. Please post your ideas here , maybe some Dev will look at this and put some of your ideas into actions EDIT: Please stop linking this thread to raising PLEX prices. Plex is not created by players or obtained by any PVE activity. If all people start to earn 50% less isk , and PLEX price will drop by 50% , there will be any real change for plex price. There is no possibility that any ISK sink will reduce VALUE , again VALUE of the PLEX. Price might drop, as there will be less isk, but it will be still MORE EXPENSIVE when you include your reduced income. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The best isk sink in the universe is other players... More PVP? Other than that I want to see Rats ganking mining barges as in 0.5 space it's way to easy to survive any number of rats at a belt. Make it cost more to do missions. Raise collateral through the roof! Docking fees anyone? Capsular permits from each empire, otherwise you wont be allowed to operate in their space etc. Just a couple of quick ideas of the top of my head. A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 65	Posted - 2014.11.23 01:44:31 - [60] - Quote OK first the admission that I have not read every post in this topic I read about half of them so this may be a little off base. Many of the things I read here would hurt our newest players the most. ideas like No insurance Fees to dock Fees to keep your ship docked Fees for using the NPC jump gates Reduced incomes from missions etc and the list goes on Perhaps we need to look into nul sec first and foremost then tricked down(up) to high sec. The large nul blocks with their monopolies on several of the materials critical to building everything but the simplest of ships and modules probably have far more influence on the markets than all of the high sec players combined. After all most high sec players have to pay what is asked, or simply not buy what they want. The potential problems we have with the game economy are many and varied in both sources and affects and no one single idea will solve them especially if those ideas hit any one segment of the game harder than they do all others. I am not sure what the answers are but I do know what they answers cannot be. We cannot try to remedy this by putting all of the burdens onto high sec, just as we cannot remedy it by putting all of the burdens onto those in nul. The only group of players that needs/deserves special care and attention in all of this are the newest players in our midst as they are always the ones hardest hit by changes like these.

Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 65	Posted - 2014.11.23 02:06:45 - [61] - Quote afkalt wrote: I don't buy inflation hurting newbies. All the NPC drops, exploration junk, minerals spike....big deal their relative income is the same. It only actually hurts direct isk injection: bounties (and WH buy orders). And I believe you are ignoring the realities of the situation. It is true that the income of salvaged materials fluctuates with the market, however these items account for about 1/4 of the income from a level 1 or 2 mission and go up to about half of the income for a level 4. The actual pay, bonuses and bounties paid have remained virtually the same for the past few years. Overall these factors combine to affect the new players the most, while the older players that can run the higher level missions are not affected as badly.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 655	Posted - 2014.11.23 02:22:15 - [62] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: OK first the admission that I have not read every post in this topic I read about half of them so this may be a little off base. Many of the things I read here would hurt our newest players the most. ideas like No insurance Fees to dock Fees to keep your ship docked Fees for using the NPC jump gates Reduced incomes from missions etc and the list goes on Perhaps we need to look into nul sec first and foremost then tricked down(up) to high sec. The large nul blocks with their monopolies on several of the materials critical to building everything but the simplest of ships and modules probably have far more influence on the markets than all of the high sec players combined. After all most high sec players have to pay what is asked, or simply not buy what they want. The potential problems we have with the game economy are many and varied in both sources and affects and no one single idea will solve them especially if those ideas hit any one segment of the game harder than they do all others. I am not sure what the answers are but I do know what they answers cannot be. We cannot try to remedy this by putting all of the burdens onto high sec, just as we cannot remedy it by putting all of the burdens onto those in nul. The only group of players that needs/deserves special care and attention in all of this are the newest players in our midst as they are always the ones hardest hit by changes like these. A: Moon minerals introduce no money into the EVE economy. It's all just money trading hands between players, and the associated transactions fees associated with it. In that it functions as a slight sink, through market transactions, invention and copy costs, production lines required to make t2 items, etc. Faction mods and deadspace mods from nullsec? They create NO isk. The only things in nullsec that actually PRODUCE isk is the guys on the bottom ratting and the rare soul running missions in NPC space. I guess if you are concerned with nullsec's "influence" over the market that might be a semi-genuine concern, but ever since the heavy anomaly spawning/contents over the past few years, the wast majority of Nullsec is fairly useless for making money. Fighting over moons and the relatively few pockets of usable space are the few things keeping nullsec on the right side of borderline inhabitable, especially post-Phoebe. Just take a look at a poor security space region to see the activity level of poor space. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Great_Wildlands#kills24 A few years ago Nullsec was a place where you could generate high level anomalies for line members anywhere you wanted in sov space and move stuff in and out with ease. Then they restricted decent anom generation to only systems with excellent security levels. Then they nerfed the anoms themself, so that all decent sites spawned a number of elite scrambler frigs and fewer BS's to make it more dangerous adn less profitable to run them. Then they nerfed jump drives and added jump fatigue so that moving supplies in and out of nullsec, especially deep nullsec is now an extremely difficult procedure. All while doing things like adding incursions, adding marauders for even better highsec mission running, better ships for hauling stuff around highsec (Bowhead), mining barge changes, clone tags for lowsec dwellers, and other QoL changes for high/lowsec. So when I say that of all the things that might be worrisome in this game, that nullsec "controls a majority of the moon goo market" (A majority, but there are a lot of lowsec moons as well), is honestly very very low on the list of problems. Nullsec has become steadily more and more difficult to make a full time living in over the past few years without resorting to isk making highsec alts. Maybe for once it's time for highsec to pitch in a bit and get hit with an income nerf bat if excessive system wide isk flow is really an issue. end rant I just get tired of people constantly acting like nullsec is all roses and sunshine, when we have steadily been getting into a worse and worse spot for people who live in nullsec and make their money there.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 506	Posted - 2014.11.23 08:57:03 - [63] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: afkalt wrote: I don't buy inflation hurting newbies. All the NPC drops, exploration junk, minerals spike....big deal their relative income is the same. It only actually hurts direct isk injection: bounties (and WH buy orders). And I believe you are ignoring the realities of the situation. It is true that the income of salvaged materials fluctuates with the market, however these items account for about 1/4 of the income from a level 1 or 2 mission and go up to about half of the income for a level 4. The actual pay, bonuses and bounties paid have remained virtually the same for the past few years. Overall these factors combine to affect the new players the most, while the older players that can run the higher level missions are not affected as badly. Missioning isn't the only way to make isk in the game.... In fact it's a crap way for newbies to make isk even today. And the big chunk of mission income is LP items which are....gasp inflation linked.
Mharius Skjem Opacity Circles 165	Posted - 2014.11.23 09:14:03 - [64] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: elitatwo wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: I've been thinking about this for a bit. You shouldn't have.. Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: With the soon-to-be loss of med-clone upgrades as a sink, something should at least replace it... Why? /shrug One of the problems in academia. I can't help but to think about things As for why the replacement. This is the purpose of this thread, right? Maybe the Economy will survive quite well without that extra sink, maybe it won't. Doesn't hurt to have a few ideas in mind should rampant inflation become a problem. It's nice to be proactive. Thought costs us nothing. I'd rather have a few unneeded ideas in the works rather than discover EvE has become space Zimbabwe. --Gadget Eve has already become space Zimbabwe. I remember when battleships started at 55million. You try getting one for that price now. Meanwhile mission runners haven't seen a single is increase in mission rewards or npc bounty payouts. Mission runners are paying for the pvp of nullsec. A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Enya Sparhawk Black Tea and Talons 23	Posted - 2014.11.23 10:26:44 - [65] - Quote Hahaha... Just make ship insurance a player owned business... Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne Déan gáire...Tiocfaidh ár lá
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 782	Posted - 2014.11.23 12:55:48 - [66] - Quote How about giant black holes randomly appearing around null formed from dark bank matter that suck isk directly from peoples wallets when they reach the recession eveny horizon?
Mag's the united 18176	Posted - 2014.11.23 13:02:16 - [67] - Quote I'd be fine with removing insurance. Seems this one change would be a good thing overall. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.23 13:33:16 - [68] - Quote Removing Insurance is not real isk sink. It is just a way to remove one of the many ISK is flowing into the system. ISK sink is a place where for isk you get something. The best example are the missions and the LP points. For example you buy from LP store BPC for a ship. You not only have to have enough LP points but also ISK that is part of the payment , and as you give this isk to NPC corp, it is removed from the game. Next example is the SOV bill , all isk you pay to concord is removed from the system. That is the goal, create or boost ISK sinks. PHOEBE Retrospective
Mag's the united 18178	Posted - 2014.11.23 13:37:36 - [69] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Removing Insurance is not real isk sink. It is just a way to remove one of the many ISK is flowing into the system. It removes a faucet, therefore reducing the need for more sinks. The end result is the same. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.23 19:35:27 - [70] - Quote Mag's wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Removing Insurance is not real isk sink. It is just a way to remove one of the many ISK is flowing into the system. It removes a faucet, therefore reducing the need for more sinks. The end result is the same. I don't agree. It is better to create new ways to spend this isk on stuff bought from NPC corps, and increase the SOV bill. PHOEBE Retrospective

Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 656	Posted - 2014.11.23 20:19:05 - [71] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Mag's wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Removing Insurance is not real isk sink. It is just a way to remove one of the many ISK is flowing into the system. It removes a faucet, therefore reducing the need for more sinks. The end result is the same. I don't agree. It is better to create new ways to spend this isk on stuff bought from NPC corps, and increase the SOV bill. Except that CCP has already stated that they would eventually like everything to be sourced from players, not NPC orders. They are also aware with the issues with nullsec and Sov. Dont hold your breath for any nullsec changes to reduce the moderate amount of money coming out of null. (moongoo is not money, it is a commodity, and the trading/use of this commodity removes isk from the system) Actual nullsec isk production in the form of bounties has been heavily nerfed several times over the past few years. If you want to whack an isk faucet, the Isk/LP ratio from missions and incursions needs to skew far further towards the LP side, as LP transactions remove isk.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 627	Posted - 2014.11.23 20:47:54 - [72] - Quote Anhenka wrote: If you want to whack an isk faucet, the Isk/LP ratio from missions and incursions needs to skew far further towards the LP side, as LP transactions remove isk. Exactly. I'd even consider going so far as to remove all direct ISK rat bounties and replace them with tags or nexus chips or some other item. Then have almost all the ISK enter the game through NPC buy orders for those items. Then you have to transport your items somewhere to get the full value, which adds a good amount of risk to the whole affair. I'd accompany this with a change to NPC's to make them tougher, fewer, and worth more. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Altrue Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective 1422	Posted - 2014.11.23 20:49:47 - [73] - Quote Hey everyone! I'm volunteering to be your personal isk sink! Please send isk to this character. Don't thank me Signature Tanking - Best Tanking
Sera Kor-Azor Viziam Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2014.11.24 00:05:49 - [74] - Quote Let's consider that the OP was suggesting ISK sinks as a means of making market goods more affordable for new players. Suggestions such as removing insurance, removing bounties for rats, docking fees, and toll gates only make things less affordable for newer players. We should consider that the majority of ISK being made and not spent comes from station traders that never undock. The insurance payouts, ratting bounties, etc. do not increase with inflation. They are also a small reward for the people that actually do undock and take a bit of risk. However, station traders are the ones directly responsible for inflation, buying things for a low price and relisting them for a higher price. My suggestion would be: 1. Link station transaction taxes with a system's security status. Let's say a 10% tax in a 1.0 system, 5% in a 0.5 system, 2% in a 0.2 system, and so on. The reason you are paying for these higher taxes is because CONCORD needs to be paid somehow. If you aren't willing to provide your own security, expect to have to pay for the privilege. This is the way things work in the 'real world'. If you want to live downtown and use the services such as Police, Firefighters, streetlights and so on, you have to pay taxes. If you don't want to pay taxes, you can head out into the low sec world of crime, or the null sec world of the frontier. Taxes are lower or non existent, but you have to provide your own security. 2. Consumables. Currently the only consumables in game are drugs, and possibly ships that get blown up from time to time. Why is there no food and drink in the future? This would be like 'jump fatigue' for manufacturers and station traders. When docked and logged in, a character would have a hunger bar that slowly goes down. When the bar gets to zero, an attribute penalty is incurred unless a food item is purchased and/ or consumed from your station hangar. Consumable alcoholic beverages would also be a fun addition. A certain amount of alcohol would add to your hunger bar, but drinking too much would cause you to slur you speech over voice comms and fumble actions. Once you undock, the hunger bar no longer affects you until you dock again. 3. Gambling This was apparently in game once but was removed, so it's unlikely. However, in station gambling would be a good ISK sink. 4. Black Market Also apparently removed from the game. However, there are some items that are considered contraband by certain factions. Despite this, these items are still available for sale within the trade hubs of those systems. Why should I be able to buy a Blood Raider ship in Amarr, Emperor station? This makes no sense. Make these contraband items only available in low or null sec. Make smuggling a viable career option. 5. Insurance actuators. I also think that ship insurance should be buffed enough to replace lost ships in high sec, but travel to low sec and null sec would invalidate the insurance. Doesn't this reflect the way insurance works in the real world? Insurance is linked to risk. High sec mining would be considered a lesser risk than low sec combat, therefore the insurance would be cheaper and the payoff higher. Gankers and pirates could still shoot targets in high sec, but the ability to completely replace the cost of a lost ship would result in a lot less butthurt at getting ganked. Pirates get their targets, miners and mission runners can replace their ships, industrialists sell more ships.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 656	Posted - 2014.11.24 00:21:23 - [75] - Quote Sera Kor-Azor wrote: 5. Insurance actuators. I also think that ship insurance should be buffed enough to replace lost ships in high sec, but travel to low sec and null sec would invalidate the insurance. Doesn't this reflect the way insurance works in the real world? Insurance is linked to risk. High sec mining would be considered a lesser risk than low sec combat, therefore the insurance would be cheaper and the payoff higher. Gankers and pirates could still shoot targets in high sec, but the ability to completely replace the cost of a lost ship would result in a lot less butthurt at getting ganked. Pirates get their targets, miners and mission runners can replace their ships, industrialists sell more ships. I can't be the only one with an urge to smack people who propose removing insurance for the people who PvP can I? "Oh let's remove the insurance from the people who need it the most for their playstyle, wrecking a game who's economy revolves around PvP losses." Insurance is what enables much of PvP. Ships die, isk appears, subsidizes next ship, keep demand for ships and fittings high, mineral prices high, faction mod demand keeps LP prices high... Remove insurance for nullsec/lowsec PvP, The whole system deflates. If the potential loss of deploying a fleet suddenly triples because of insurance, the bar for risking that fleet suddenly becomes MUCH higher. It simply becomes not worth it to squabble over anything but the absolute most valuable things. Groups suddenly start not taking fleets out because losing the fleet might take years of whatever moon they are trying to capture or defend to repay the losses. Do not massively nerf the reasons PvP on a large scale. Want to try and guess what happens when people don't have a reason to play? P.S: People don't get insurance for things that are perfectly safe. They buy insurance for things that might burn to the ground, like houses, or be smashed into by tons of metal, like cars (or houses I guess if someone is really drunk).
Sera Kor-Azor Viziam Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2014.11.24 01:04:46 - [76] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Sera Kor-Azor wrote: 5. Insurance actuators. I also think that ship insurance should be buffed enough to replace lost ships in high sec, but travel to low sec and null sec would invalidate the insurance. Doesn't this reflect the way insurance works in the real world? Insurance is linked to risk. High sec mining would be considered a lesser risk than low sec combat, therefore the insurance would be cheaper and the payoff higher. Gankers and pirates could still shoot targets in high sec, but the ability to completely replace the cost of a lost ship would result in a lot less butthurt at getting ganked. Pirates get their targets, miners and mission runners can replace their ships, industrialists sell more ships. I can't be the only one with an urge to smack people who propose removing insurance for the people who PvP can I? "Oh let's remove the insurance from the people who need it the most for their playstyle, wrecking a game who's economy revolves around PvP losses." Insurance is what enables much of PvP. Ships die, isk appears, subsidizes next ship, keep demand for ships and fittings high, mineral prices high, faction mod demand keeps LP prices high... Remove insurance for nullsec/lowsec PvP, The whole system deflates. If the potential loss of deploying a fleet suddenly triples because of insurance, the bar for risking that fleet suddenly becomes MUCH higher. It simply becomes not worth it to squabble over anything but the absolute most valuable things. Groups suddenly start not taking fleets out because losing the fleet might take years of whatever moon they are trying to capture or defend to repay the losses. Do not massively nerf the reasons PvP on a large scale. Want to try and guess what happens when people don't have a reason to play? P.S: People don't get insurance for things that are perfectly safe. They buy insurance for things that might burn to the ground, like houses, or be smashed into by tons of metal, like cars (or houses I guess if someone is really drunk). I wouldn't remove insurance for PVP ships. I have changed my mind about that, I would however, probably link the risk with the payout. Newbies also get involved in PVP in low sec, so removing it completely would only penalize those that choose to fight as opposed to mine or haul in high sec. I would however, buff the insurance payout for high sec industrial non combat ships. True, people don't get insurance for things that are perfectly safe. However, if the risks increase isn't there a corresponding increase in premiums as well? That is what an insurance actuator does, they calculate premiums based on risk. Does a twenty five year old hot shot with a sports car and a prior driving while intoxicated conviction pay the exact same rate of auto insurance as a fifty year old who has driven for thirty years without a single accident? So, how does it make sense that a PVP pilot in a combat frigate heading for low security space pays and gets the same payout as a high sec hauler? Insurance really isn't a problem though, since it generally only covers the cost of T1 ships. The payout for tech 2 ships isn't high enough to justify the cost of insuring them, so the people that are flush with ISK usually don't even bother with it.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 630	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:01:31 - [77] - Quote Insurance is just a mechanic to encourage people to PvP, not anything based on any real risk analysis. Therefore it makes no sense at all to put more insurance on high sec hauler ships. The value in the ship loss is in the cargo, not the hull. Therefore, increasing the insurance payout wouldn't really help anyway. Given that people who PvP are inherently less risk averse than those who avoid PvP completely, it isn't really needed. It softens the blow when ships die, that's all. Since it only applies to the hull and not to the fitted mods, it doesn't even really help that much anyway. So, just get rid of it. It injects unnecessary ISK into the game. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 656	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:21:50 - [78] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Insurance is just a mechanic to encourage people to PvP, not anything based on any real risk analysis. Therefore it makes no sense at all to put more insurance on high sec hauler ships. The value in the ship loss is in the cargo, not the hull. Therefore, increasing the insurance payout wouldn't really help anyway. Given that people who PvP are inherently less risk averse than those who avoid PvP completely, it isn't really needed. It softens the blow when ships die, that's all. Since it only applies to the hull and not to the fitted mods, it doesn't even really help that much anyway. So, just get rid of it. It injects unnecessary ISK into the game. How about calls like "It doesn't help that much, remove it" be left to people who fly and lose expensive ships like capitals, or at least fly and lose many less expensive ships on a regular basis instead of people like you or me whom by our killboards, putter around with groups of people in subcaps shooting other people and getting SRP'd for losses? "I don't need it so might as well get rid of it" is never an appropriate reason for making drastic changes. I don't do Incursions. I have 0 interest in doing incursions, and thus 0 stake in what happens to them. Nerf them all by 75% income!
Sera Kor-Azor Viziam Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:36:10 - [79] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Insurance is just a mechanic to encourage people to PvP, not anything based on any real risk analysis. Therefore it makes no sense at all to put more insurance on high sec hauler ships. The value in the ship loss is in the cargo, not the hull. Therefore, increasing the insurance payout wouldn't really help anyway. Given that people who PvP are inherently less risk averse than those who avoid PvP completely, it isn't really needed. It softens the blow when ships die, that's all. Since it only applies to the hull and not to the fitted mods, it doesn't even really help that much anyway. So, just get rid of it. It injects unnecessary ISK into the game. The reason why I would increase the payout (or decrease the cost) of insurance for high sec non-combat ships is not only for realism. I think it would help soften the blow for those risk averse miners and haulers who get their ships ganked while making peanuts in high sec. If you can replace your ship cost, there is less to be upset about. Softening the blow is what it's all about. Add the fitted mods to the insurance payout. Then, the high sec hauler or miner losing their ship is just a minor setback. If their ship gets ganked, they just buy a new one. Gankers and Mission flippers get more targets. Industrialists sell more ships. If the high sec hauler hardly loses his ship at all, then how can it be argued that insurance is an ISK faucet? If someone doesn't have a ship at all because they can't afford a new one, how can they make any money? If they can't make any money, how long will they be subscribed? Remember that these suggestions are for newbies, not veterans. Insurance is a mechanism so that you don't end up being up the creek without a paddle when you lose your ship. If you don't want insurance, don't buy it. It might be unfair to say that PVP pilots in low and null sec should pay more for an insurance policy than a high sec miner or hauler (i.e. A Platinum policy rather than Basic) . However, there are also greater opportunities to make income in low and null than there are in high sec. Really though, arguing about Insurance at all is like focusing on the candle flame while ignoring the forest fire behind you. As I have said. The cause of inflation is station trading. Station traders sit in a station perfectly safe while buying low and re-listing for a higher price. These aren't peanuts, but transactions of Billions of ISK. Insurance payouts, bounty payouts for shooting rats, all of these things pay almost nothing compared to the money made by station traders who risk nothing and never undock.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1707	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:43:16 - [80] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Except that CCP has already stated that they would eventually like everything to be sourced from players, not NPC orders. They are also aware with the issues with nullsec and Sov. Dont hold your breath for any nullsec changes to reduce the moderate amount of money coming out of null. (moongoo is not money, it is a commodity, and the trading/use of this commodity removes isk from the system) Actual nullsec isk production in the form of bounties has been heavily nerfed several times over the past few years. If you want to whack an isk faucet, the Isk/LP ratio from missions and incursions needs to skew far further towards the LP side, as LP transactions remove isk. Except for certain things that have to stay NPC sourced to allow for growth. Also Null Sec accounts for over 50% of all the Isk Faucets in the game, Bounties being the largest isk faucet by a huge margin and nearly all bounties coming from Null. WH's are the second biggest isk faucet with NPC buy orders (Which actually just got increased). The isk faucet from high sec stuff is way down the list, and high sec stuff also comes with it's own built in isk sinks as well. So lets have less of this myth about high sec being behind any inflation. Of course, it also appears to be a myth that there is any inflation at the moment, with CCP having introduced a new HUGE isk sink in the form of industry build costs, and also slightly bumped a faucet. So..... anyone who thinks we need to change anything for inflation, feel free to produce some actual proof the problem exists. Right now you are all proposing 'solutions' which suit your personal play style and nerf other people without an actual problem.

Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 656	Posted - 2014.11.24 02:59:14 - [81] - Quote Sera Kor-Azor wrote: Really though, arguing about Insurance at all is like focusing on the candle flame while ignoring the forest fire behind you. As I have said. The cause of inflation is station trading. Station traders sit in a station perfectly safe while buying low and re-listing for a higher price. These aren't peanuts, but transactions of Billions of ISK. Are you trolling? Please say you are. Time for preschool level examples. I have an apple. Bob pays me 100$ for this apple (It's an awesome apple) The omnipotent Gov rushes in and taxes 10$ from that hundred, then tosses it in a fire, destroying it. How much money is in the system at the end of the action? 90$ WOW! LOOK! Trading is a deflationary action There is no money coming out of thin air when trading is done. there is only money vanishing and trading hands. Inflation occurs when the money supply increases proportionate to the number of players. Trading cannot create inflation. Trading sets the demand/supply levels and prices of any particular good, but that would still happen in an economy with an absolute closed system.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy 655	Posted - 2014.11.24 03:40:20 - [82] - Quote we could add learning skills and expensive clone upgrades.... -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á- [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Komi Toran Paragon Trust The Bastion 391	Posted - 2014.11.24 03:51:26 - [83] - Quote Mharius Skjem wrote: Eve has already become space Zimbabwe. I remember when battleships started at 55million. You try getting one for that price now. Yes. That was before Tiericide, before CCP added a hundred million or so worth of minerals to their construction. In otherwords: nothing to do with isk inflation.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 631	Posted - 2014.11.24 04:01:45 - [84] - Quote Sera Kor-Azor wrote: Softening the blow is what it's all about. Add the fitted mods to the insurance payout. Then, the high sec hauler or miner losing their ship is just a minor setback. If their ship gets ganked, they just buy a new one. Gankers and Mission flippers get more targets. Industrialists sell more ships. One of the biggest attractions about Eve is that it has consequences. Harsh ones. Also, "fitted mods to the insurance payout" is just an invitation for exploitation. Sera Kor-Azor wrote: If the high sec hauler hardly loses his ship at all, then how can it be argued that insurance is an ISK faucet? If someone doesn't have a ship at all because they can't afford a new one, how can they make any money? If they can't make any money, how long will they be subscribed? ... Really though, arguing about Insurance at all is like focusing on the candle flame while ignoring the forest fire behind you. As I have said. The cause of inflation is station trading. Station traders sit in a station perfectly safe while buying low and re-listing for a higher price. These aren't peanuts, but transactions of Billions of ISK. Insurance payouts, bounty payouts for shooting rats, all of these things pay almost nothing compared to the money made by station traders who risk nothing and never undock. This is the part where you show that you don't understand inflation in the slightest or know what an ISK faucet is... This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 219	Posted - 2014.11.24 05:51:36 - [85] - Quote stop all ships dropping modules, and replace those with BPC's, then double the loot tables and remove bounties? no more 'mining with guns' no more 'isk faucet' it might need to be balanced, such as allowing lvl 1 mission rats to keep their bounty in HS..... For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 77	Posted - 2014.11.24 06:34:04 - [86] - Quote Xe'Cara'eos wrote: stop all ships dropping modules, and replace those with BPC's, then double the loot tables and remove bounties? no more 'mining with guns' no more 'isk faucet' it might need to be balanced, such as allowing lvl 1 mission rats to keep their bounty in HS..... The game needs faucets, or otherwise there would be less and less ISK to be moved around. There is also one sink that CCP can NEVER take away. If someone quits playing EvE, then their ISK leaves the board. The problem is balancing the amount of ISK from both faucets and sinks. Sometimes a new fixture is needed, or one needs to be taken away; sometimes a faucet or sink needs to be opened wider. and sometimes they need to be squeezed tighter. All of these things need to be kept in mind as well as not taxing the individual overly much. Providing the idividual too much ISK (from faucets) is less bad, but can still be harmful. People will still get rich and be poor, but mostly through the movement of ISK. As for BPC's replacing modules, that smacks of trying to move EvE towards a full barter economy. That's a no-go from me. One of EvE's strongest pulls is its robust and mostly player run economy. Removing money will make the system rather less robust. Money is easier to carry -- it takes no cargo hold, can't really be taken from the player by another player (without the owning player's agreement), fluctuates in value at a much lesser degree than the vast majority of comodities, and is always useful. Try playing the game without using ISK for a week or so and getting what you want. Some can; however, some people also live on barely self-sustaining farms IRL. Neither of these peoples are the movers and shakers of the economy. They are the ones not participating in it. --Gadget
OldWolf69 Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance 169	Posted - 2014.11.24 07:21:20 - [87] - Quote Best isk sink: remove all station traders in jita, and scrap their wallets.
Basil Pupkin Why So Platypus 62	Posted - 2014.11.24 09:31:33 - [88] - Quote I think the dude missed that ratting already got hit with: ESS changes: -5% to bounty (unless you use it and get -20% to bounty from every roaming fleet around. Not everyone rats in the blue donut). Reprocessing changes: -50% loot value. And pretty much none of the ratting ships were oh-so-buffed. Unlike suicide ganking ships and roaming ships, those received tons of love. You want more ISK sinks, buff the grief dec cost, that'll do. By buffing market taxes you just shift people to use other trading tools. There are plenty, like mailing lists, contract spamming, and emerging API-powered asset management projects. I assure you that the eve market is already at the limit with current tax level, already useless and often avoided on mass purchases. Traders are not stupid, so the buyers are paying the tax for them anyway, it's in the price, increase that - you hit the small guy, big guys will go contracting and player trading with tools, that won't do any good. What's next? Nerf player trades and contracts, so people would start passing stuff to each other by jettisoning it in space? And then tax the looting? No. That said (aside from grief dec cost buff) I don't have any good ideas myself atm (f*k modays), but I'll get to any you propose. A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 277	Posted - 2014.11.24 10:45:54 - [89] - Quote Prices in general just don't exhibit any signs of inflation. PLEX shows, because that particular item hoovers most of the increase in expendable income. Spending on ships is limited by rational behaviour- just because a PVP player has more ISK now than 3 years ago doesn't mean he would fly shinier ships, it's just not justifiable due to Kb efficiency. Or that a mission runner would buy another pimped-out Golem, he already has one and not likely to lose it. Instead they plex their accounts or roll alts, focusing the demand pressure almost solely on plex, which has a very limited supply. Rampant isbotting is also major factor in plex prices, isbotter armies are always funded by the increased isk accumulation enabled by isbotting. tl,dr; no need to add ISK sinks or adjust faucets.
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.24 12:29:35 - [90] - Quote Basil Pupkin wrote: I think the dude missed that ratting already got hit with: ESS changes: -5% to bounty (unless you use it and get -20% to bounty from every roaming fleet around. Not everyone rats in the blue donut). Reprocessing changes: -50% loot value. And pretty much none of the ratting ships were oh-so-buffed. Unlike suicide ganking ships and roaming ships, those received tons of love. You want more ISK sinks, buff the grief dec cost, that'll do. By buffing market taxes you just shift people to use other trading tools. There are plenty, like mailing lists, contract spamming, and emerging API-powered asset management projects. I assure you that the eve market is already at the limit with current tax level, already useless and often avoided on mass purchases. Traders are not stupid, so the buyers are paying the tax for them anyway, it's in the price, increase that - you hit the small guy, big guys will go contracting and player trading with tools, that won't do any good. What's next? Nerf player trades and contracts, so people would start passing stuff to each other by jettisoning it in space? And then tax the looting? No. That said (aside from grief dec cost buff) I don't have any good ideas myself atm (fk modays), but I'll get to any you propose. -5% bounty is not much , and most of the ratters do rate in blue donut , so they get a bit more. Reprocessing change , sorry this have nothing to do with isk. When you reprocess stuff you don't get additional isk, just minerals. You have to difference assets and isk. Look at this this way. You killed 100 bs rats, and you got 100mil isk from bounty and 100mil worth materials from reprocessing , and salvage. From those minerals you build yourself 3 battlecruisers, using those 100mil you bought fits. Day later you loose those ships in the fight. What happened to initial assets : 1. Minerals and salvage They where removed from the system , the moment those ship died. You or someone else can "recover" some of the salvage by salvaging those 3 wrecks, but this will be minimal amount of goods. 2.ISK from bounty. Isk was spent on fits, and ammunition, it was not destroyed with those ships, it just changed hands. What more , loosing those ships generated isk from insurance , so you got around 40-50mil to your wallet. Summarizing : From 100mil isk introduced into the system, and 100mil worth of minerals we got to the point that we have 140-150mil isk in the system and 0 isk in goods.* Insurance is important for new players. Goal is to create new way to pull this isk from the system in a some way - and not only assume that the best way to remove isk from game is to wait for someone to abandon his accounts. PHOEBE Retrospective

King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 277	Posted - 2014.11.24 12:33:24 - [91] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Goal is to create new way to pull this isk from the system in a some way - and not only assume that the best way to remove isk from game is to wait for someone to abandon his accounts. But still the question remains- why? Why do you think the economy needs a new ISK sink?
DaeHan Minhyok Multiplex Gaming The Bastion 29	Posted - 2014.11.24 12:42:38 - [92] - Quote how about charging people 10m isk to post bad ideas on the forums?
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 41	Posted - 2014.11.24 13:53:32 - [93] - Quote How about to boost the most lucrative NPCs? Give them more HP and DPS. As they will be more deadly they will generate less isk. Boost LP rewards, lower ISK reward, etc.
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.24 13:53:34 - [94] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Goal is to create new way to pull this isk from the system in a some way - and not only assume that the best way to remove isk from game is to wait for someone to abandon his accounts. But still the question remains- why? Why do you think the economy needs a new ISK sink? When i started to play eve fitted Battleship was around 70mil , full fit and rigs included. Now the same battleship cost around 250mil. Yes there was changes to industry , extra materials etc , but when you take this into account cost change should be around 10-15%. Yes im aware that drone regions where nerfed and most of minerals came from them, reprocessing changed ... still. Prices are constantly increasing , and the only way for something to get really cheaper is making some stuff worthless by some CCP re balance. Every month you cannot buy the same stuff for 1b you managed in previous month. To what this will lead : Check this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation Btw. I have some stamps from this period. 0.10 base value and new value in black stamp on top of it. Guess the new value ....... 4.000.000 Something like here : http://zapatopi.net/blog/?post=200807307920.stamp_nook_hyperinflation Yes this is a game, game that wants to be REAL . PHOEBE Retrospective
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 41	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:03:56 - [95] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Goal is to create new way to pull this isk from the system in a some way - and not only assume that the best way to remove isk from game is to wait for someone to abandon his accounts. But still the question remains- why? Why do you think the economy needs a new ISK sink? Everything got very expansive. PLEX will cost 1 bil soon. Poeple are leaving because they are tired to grind to buy something.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 509	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:04:14 - [96] - Quote Still curious as to why it is a problem. A PWNAGE dropped today nets newbro ~200k Let's say there is hyperinflation and they sell for 2 BILLION isk. Newbro loots.....wait for it....an item he can flip for 2B isk. So who cares? It remains relative, in the main. Except for, you know....the items that don't drop....like...PLEX.....which takes me back to my first post.
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:15:33 - [97] - Quote afkalt wrote: Still curious as to why it is a problem. A PWNAGE dropped today nets newbro ~200k Let's say there is hyperinflation and they sell for 2 BILLION isk. Newbro loots.....wait for it....an item he can flip for 2B isk. So who cares? It remains relative, in the main. Except for, you know....the items that don't drop....like...PLEX.....which takes me back to my first post. Sorry but linking ISK sinks to PLEX prices is wrong. Plex is not normal item. Its VALUE ( not price ) will never be affected by ISK sinks. Current plex price is around 85% real VALUE and around 15% speculation. As for hyperinflation ... think what you can buy for those 2bil then.... nothing. (it will not get to this point... but ... if you go this way ) At the same time think about new players - they come and they have to make 15bil to buy caracal. PHOEBE Retrospective
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 509	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:20:02 - [98] - Quote So I repeat.....who cares? What is the problem and what does it matter? People have to loot more? Good, creates more opportunities for player interaction, better lifestyle for ninjas. More "loss" immediately warping out the minute someone hits local.
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 41	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:23:03 - [99] - Quote afkalt wrote: So I repeat.....who cares? What is the problem and what does it matter? People have to loot more? Good, creates more opportunities for player interaction, better lifestyle for ninjas. More "loss" immediately warping out the minute someone hits local. Well as I've said somebody will just leave and game will get just more boring.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 509	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:26:28 - [100] - Quote Lidia Caderu wrote: afkalt wrote: So I repeat.....who cares? What is the problem and what does it matter? People have to loot more? Good, creates more opportunities for player interaction, better lifestyle for ninjas. More "loss" immediately warping out the minute someone hits local. Well as I've said somebody will just leave and game will get just more boring. Why leave? Because you need to pay to play the game? Good. F2P is a ******* scourge on the face of real gaming and needs to be exterminated with extreme prejudice. Or is it because stopping to loot is "hard"?

Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:32:28 - [101] - Quote Who cares that excessive isk makes every thing more expensive? Sometimes more expensive than it should be? Very simple example. 1. You want to buy Battleship You earn 50mil / h ... we have excessive isk floating around the system, so it was easy to make some stuff to cost more. This battleship costs 150mil. In order to do it you have to do PVE for 3hours. But. Because there is a lot of isk in the system, the battleship not cost any more 150mil, but 300mi. You still earn 50mil/h , so you have to PVE not for 3hours but for 6 hours. So something that was fun at some point slowly is changing to work. Look at the new player. For him, when he is earning 10mil/h ... this shiny BS is goal for near future ... this 150mil is expensive , not even talking about 300mil per hull. PHOEBE Retrospective
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 41	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:36:31 - [102] - Quote Quote: F2P is a ***** scourge on the face of real gaming Lol you are a real r**d :))))
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:37:46 - [103] - Quote afkalt wrote: Lidia Caderu wrote: afkalt wrote: So I repeat.....who cares? What is the problem and what does it matter? People have to loot more? Good, creates more opportunities for player interaction, better lifestyle for ninjas. More "loss" immediately warping out the minute someone hits local. Well as I've said somebody will just leave and game will get just more boring. Why leave? Because you need to pay to play the game? Good. F2P is a ******* scourge on the face of real gaming and needs to be exterminated with extreme prejudice. Or is it because stopping to loot is "hard"? You are getting this totally wrong way. Remember that this is game, not work. Many , if not most , of eve players don't have 19 years any more. They have work , families. Sorry but the for me, and for many people the moment i will have to buy PLEX from CCP just to have isk to afford ships will be the last day you will see me on server. This thread is not about this, F2P or Plex prices. This thread is how to remove isk flowing into the system. Isk that is created from nowhere and where most of it should land at the end. PHOEBE Retrospective
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 509	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:40:20 - [104] - Quote Maybe newbros shouldn't be looking at battleships then? If you can only make 10m/hour, you'll lose 150m-300m per hour the minute you sit in that shiny BS and have it blow the hell out from under you. If poor newbro is a miner (the only thing I can think of making such poor isk) making 10m/hour and things triple in cost, why would be not then make 30m/hour thus keeping the relative cost the same? Perhaps, if inflation pushes everything 3x more expensive but your income remains constant perhaps it is time to revisit your efficiency? edit: TL;RD: Stop thinking "isk/hour" and start thinking "assets/hour"
Anthar Thebess 803	Posted - 2014.11.24 14:54:20 - [105] - Quote afkalt wrote: Maybe newbros shouldn't be looking at battleships then? When you come to eve you want to fly bigger and bigger ships. I still remember my first cruiser, battlecruiser ... Over the years and experience you learn that smaller signature is important , and when you skill up a bit , you can have similar DPS on proper ships. So please post your ideas about possible ISK sinks , rather than talkin how PLEX is expensive , and how you don't care that every thing is getting more and more expensive ( while the VALUE stay the same). afkalt wrote: edit: TL;RD: Stop thinking "isk/hour" and start thinking "assets/hour" That is the point of why we need isk sinks. Because inflation every month you can buy less assets/hour than in the previous month. PHOEBE Retrospective
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 509	Posted - 2014.11.24 15:11:43 - [106] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: afkalt wrote: edit: TL;RD: Stop thinking "isk/hour" and start thinking "assets/hour" That is the point of why we need isk sinks. Because inflation every month you can buy less assets/hour than in the previous month. I fail to see how I can make this any clearer, you're just missing my point. If I loot 75m per hour in drops today and a battleship costs 150m then two hours of loot generation gets me it Let's say hyperinflation hits tomorrow then tomorrow and the battleship costs 1,500m but remember the same thing affects drops so I'm now looting 750m per hour in drops.....it takes me two hours to afford the battleship. Same as before. What will happen is bounty farming will slowly give ground to bounty and loot farming. Asset generation stays consistent, affordability stays broadly consistent. Supply and demand will level it off, there will hit a point where people wont go beyond for an item as inflation outpaces isk facuets and liquid isk stockpiles transfer to assets, then it'll settle down to a norm. Point being, it's not really going to hurt newbies, or anyone else for that matter. Maybe the NPCs seeding titan skill books ;)
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 290	Posted - 2014.11.24 17:01:20 - [107] - Quote PVP can be enough of an isk sink as it is. Calling ship insurance an isk faucet is laughable; it's the only reason many people will take out expensive or big ships. I dunno about you, but I refuse to grind red crosses to replace 300 mil losses. Solution is simple, less hi security space, more low security space and less zero risk income. Yeah, Nullsec is safer than Hisec but that's a much larger problem CCP has created. There isn't enough low sec outside of FW space.
Sera Kor-Azor Viziam Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2014.11.24 19:37:22 - [108] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Sera Kor-Azor wrote: Really though, arguing about Insurance at all is like focusing on the candle flame while ignoring the forest fire behind you. As I have said. The cause of inflation is station trading. Station traders sit in a station perfectly safe while buying low and re-listing for a higher price. These aren't peanuts, but transactions of Billions of ISK. Are you trolling? Please say you are. Time for preschool level examples. I have an apple. Bob pays me 100$ for this apple (It's an awesome apple) The omnipotent Gov rushes in and taxes 10$ from that hundred, then tosses it in a fire, destroying it. How much money is in the system at the end of the action? 90$ WOW! LOOK! Trading is a deflationary action There is no money coming out of thin air when trading is done. there is only money vanishing and trading hands. Inflation occurs when the money supply increases proportionate to the number of players. Trading cannot create inflation. Trading sets the demand/supply levels and prices of any particular good, but that would still happen in an economy with an absolute closed system. Am I trolling? No, it is not my intention to troll. I was merely making suggestions. Perhaps they are all bad suggestions. Perhaps they are all foolish suggestions. However, the OP was asking for suggestions, so that is what I provided. Suggestions. You on the other hand, provide NO suggestions that I have seen. You merely point out how other people's suggestions are bad ideas. However, since you have metaphorically referred to the use of violence ("I can't be the only one who wants to smack people in the head'), as well as employing insults and a condescending tone, I have to wonder if it is you who are the troll. I did end up reconsidering my position on Insurance, and adopting your side. Despite this, the steady stream of insults and vitriol continues, regardless of the fact that there is no need for you to resort to them at all to get your point across. Yet when it comes to addressing the original topic, which is making suggestions on how to improve things, suggestions are noticeably absent from you. So yes, that is a good question. Who is the troll? Why are you here? What is the point you are trying to make? Your hyperbolic example doesn't mention that apples only cost a dollar to begin with, and Bob is making an $89 profit by buying it cheap and relisting it for a hundred dollars. Is that considered inflation? This might help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation It no longer matters to me at this point. I am beginning to see that inflation is indeed an imaginary problem and these ideas are ways to 'fix' the non existent problem by changing the game in ways that nerf the game play of other players but benefit the poster personally. Since a few people here have trouble getting into their 'big boy pants', and refraining from getting emotional or using insults, I am not going to bother with this discussion anymore.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 784	Posted - 2014.11.24 20:43:19 - [109] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: afkalt wrote: Maybe newbros shouldn't be looking at battleships then? When you come to eve you want to fly bigger and bigger ships. I still remember my first cruiser, battlecruiser .... Actually I've only ever wanted to fly a ship that's 'fit for purpose' in my current activities and have yet to fly a BS even though I can. Back on post I don't see any rampant inflation so far if you set aside plex. Last major price jump I noticed was on AFs and pirate frigs when burnermissions were introduced and that was simply supply and demand in action. No issues for me here at all so -1.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 76	Posted - 2014.11.24 21:01:51 - [110] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Sera Kor-Azor wrote: Really though, arguing about Insurance at all is like focusing on the candle flame while ignoring the forest fire behind you. As I have said. The cause of inflation is station trading. Station traders sit in a station perfectly safe while buying low and re-listing for a higher price. These aren't peanuts, but transactions of Billions of ISK. Are you trolling? Please say you are. Time for preschool level examples. I have an apple. Bob pays me 100$ for this apple (It's an awesome apple) The omnipotent Gov rushes in and taxes 10$ from that hundred, then tosses it in a fire, destroying it. How much money is in the system at the end of the action? 90$ WOW! LOOK! Trading is a deflationary action There is no money coming out of thin air when trading is done. there is only money vanishing and trading hands. Inflation occurs when the money supply increases proportionate to the number of players. Trading cannot create inflation. Trading sets the demand/supply levels and prices of any particular good, but that would still happen in an economy with an absolute closed system. You might want to learn about what you're talking about before sounding off like this . If you think the taxes done through trading outweigh the actions taken by traders to increase their profits, you just don't know trading in EVE. Those of us who make our ISK trading know that what Sera Kor-Azor has stated is absolutely true. ISK faucets do play a role in market pricing but the biggest factor is the actions of the market players. I suspect this to be the cause for inflation in most cases. Ultimately though no one knows without CCP providing data about it. I'm in enough trader chat rooms to know though just how dastardly some deeds have been. A single player with enough ISK can enter more or less any market of his choosing and decide the prices himself, be it creating an upwards or downwards trend. PLEX is the only exception to this rule. Minerals like Tritanium arguably also an exception. This does not mean trading in itself creates inflation or deflation. There are times when traders want to purposely create deflation in a market. The point here is the markets are directly controlled by the traders. The players providing materials for the market or the purchases of the market goods all play a role too but they are usually only a secondary factor. ~ Bookmarks in overview ~ Fleet improvements

Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 658	Posted - 2014.11.24 21:22:03 - [111] - Quote Sera Kor-Azor wrote: No, it is not my intention to troll. I was merely making suggestions. Perhaps they are all bad suggestions. Perhaps they are all foolish suggestions. However, the OP was asking for suggestions, so that is what I provided. Suggestions. You on the other hand, provide NO suggestions that I have seen. You merely point out how other people's suggestions are bad ideas. However, since you have metaphorically referred to the use of violence ("I can't be the only one who wants to smack people in the head'), as well as employing insults and a condescending tone, I have to wonder if it is you who are the troll. Your hyperbolic example doesn't mention that apples only cost a dollar to begin with, and Bob is making an $89 profit by buying it cheap and relisting it for a hundred dollars. Is that considered inflation? This might help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation Why do you assume an apple is worth only a dollar? In the example provided, at the time provided, the amazingly awesome apple in question was worth 100$. If we imagine that the apple and that 100$ are the sole components of the economy, at the end of the transaction, there is one apple, and 90$ existing. This means that instead of 1$ being 1/100 of an amazingly awesome apple, it is now worth 1/90th of an amazingly awesome apple. This means that the functional buying power of a dollar has increased due to a decrease in the overall money supply. For simplicity sake, we refer to this as deflation. Each and every money is removed from the EVE economy due to a market transaction fee, clone fee, purchase from an NPC, what we call isk sinks, it is a deflationary source.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 659	Posted - 2014.11.24 21:28:27 - [112] - Quote McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote: You might want to learn about what you're talking about before sounding off like this . If you think the taxes done through trading outweigh the actions taken by traders to increase their profits, you just don't know trading in EVE. Those of us who make our ISK trading know that what Sera Kor-Azor has stated is absolutely true. ISK faucets do play a role in market pricing but the biggest factor is the actions of the market players. I suspect this to be the cause for inflation in most cases. Ultimately though no one knows without CCP providing data about it. I'm in enough trader chat rooms to know though just how dastardly some deeds have been. A single player with enough ISK can enter more or less any market of his choosing and decide the prices himself, be it creating an upwards or downwards trend. PLEX is the only exception to this rule. Minerals like Tritanium arguably also an exception. This does not mean trading in itself creates inflation or deflation. There are times when traders want to purposely create deflation in a market. The point here is the markets are directly controlled by the traders. The players providing materials for the market or the purchases of the market goods all play a role too but they are usually only a secondary factor. You are mixing up price fixing with economic inflation. A rapid spike in a certain items price due to market fixing is not inflation because A: It is temporary. B: Inflation is usually pegged to the overall buying power of a certain amount of money. Just because some trader pumps up the price of _____ by 30% over where it would sit without manipulation is price fixing, not inflation. After all, price fixing occurs even (arguably far more often) in systems with a resticted, limited money supply than those with open sinks and faucets like eve. TLDR: Temporary price fixing is not inflation, in the economic meaning of the word. It might be in the "inflating a balloon", but inflation is judged on a larger index than any single item.
Sera Kor-Azor Viziam Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2014.11.24 22:10:33 - [113] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Sera Kor-Azor wrote: No, it is not my intention to troll. I was merely making suggestions. Perhaps they are all bad suggestions. Perhaps they are all foolish suggestions. However, the OP was asking for suggestions, so that is what I provided. Suggestions. You on the other hand, provide NO suggestions that I have seen. You merely point out how other people's suggestions are bad ideas. However, since you have metaphorically referred to the use of violence ("I can't be the only one who wants to smack people in the head'), as well as employing insults and a condescending tone, I have to wonder if it is you who are the troll. Your hyperbolic example doesn't mention that apples only cost a dollar to begin with, and Bob is making an $89 profit by buying it cheap and relisting it for a hundred dollars. Is that considered inflation? This might help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation Why do you assume an apple is worth only a dollar? In the example provided, at the time provided, the amazingly awesome apple in question was worth 100$. If we imagine that the apple and that 100$ are the sole components of the economy, at the end of the transaction, there is one apple, and 90$ existing. This means that instead of 1$ being 1/100 of an amazingly awesome apple, it is now worth 1/90th of an amazingly awesome apple. This means that the functional buying power of a dollar has increased due to a decrease in the overall money supply. For simplicity sake, we refer to this as deflation. Each and every money is removed from the EVE economy due to a market transaction fee, clone fee, purchase from an NPC, what we call isk sinks, it is a deflationary source. First you started with a straw-man, and mixed in a little personal attack, and now you seem to be moving the goal posts. You took my suggestion for increasing station trading taxes/ linking station taxes with security status, and then paradoxically used it as an example as why my suggestion somehow wouldn't work. In your own example, it's the TAXES that remove the ISK from the equation, not the actual process of trading itself. In order for your example to work, we would have to suspend disbelief about what we know about apples in the real world. You might find an apple with the face of Jesus on it, and be able to sell it for $100, but the initial cost of that apple was $1 or under at the grocery store. If you doubt this, go buy an apple yourself and confirm if this is true. If that apple is sold on E-bay for $100, that is an example of relisting. When ALL the apples in the world are bought for $1 and relisted for $100, that's inflation. Still though, we hear no actual solutions from you regarding the problem of inflation, if it actually is a problem. Instead, you seem to have your laser like focus set on shooting down other people's ideas and suggestions.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 77	Posted - 2014.11.24 22:48:03 - [114] - Quote Phaade wrote: PVP can be enough of an isk sink as it is. Calling ship insurance an isk faucet is laughable; it's the only reason many people will take out expensive or big ships. I dunno about you, but I refuse to grind red crosses to replace 300 mil losses. Solution is simple, less hi security space, more low security space and less zero risk income. Yeah, Nullsec is safer than Hisec but that's a much larger problem CCP has created. There isn't enough low sec outside of FW space. Nope. You're confusing ISK in an individual's wallet with the amount of ISK in the game. PVP isn't an ISK sink. No money leaves the system when a ship is blown up. The individual might be out some cash if the pilot purchaced the ships, but that money goes to who the pilot bought the ships from. That's ISK movement, not a sink. If the pilot builds her own ships, then there's a slight sink in manufacturing fees. But then, that's not PVP, that's industry. If all the ships in the game were uninsured and exploded tomorrow, this would only cause an ISK loss in one way: Players rage-quitting EvE and taking their ISK out of circulation. Insurance is a type of faucet because if everyone had insurance on all those ships, then that ISK from the payments would come from nowhere. However, insuance is also a sink, because if magically every ship in the game had insurance and they all survived for the length of an insurance contract, then that's money leaving the game with no return. Insurance is tricky, and honestly needs to be reviewed to make sure that the pay-ins and pay-outs cancel each other out as much as possible. Safety has nothing to do with the amount of ISK circulating in the game. It might decide how much it moves between players, but that has nothing to with how much ISK is generated or is destroyed as a whole. As for why this thread was looking for sink ideas. We are about to lose a sink in the form of med-clone costs. While the loss of this sink obviously hasn't affected the game's economy yet, and we don't know for sure how it will affect the economy in the future, it would be better to have something to replace the sink should we need it. I'll say again, that it's better to have a solution to a problem ready before the problem becomes a problem. Since this is all speculation, it doesn't cost the devs anything but some idle chat over beers and some note taking. Should a problem with inflation become apparent, then the devs can brush off the sink ideas and implement it. Better to be vigilant. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 279	Posted - 2014.11.24 23:02:28 - [115] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: King Fu Hostile wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Goal is to create new way to pull this isk from the system in a some way - and not only assume that the best way to remove isk from game is to wait for someone to abandon his accounts. But still the question remains- why? Why do you think the economy needs a new ISK sink? When i started to play eve fitted Battleship was around 70mil , full fit and rigs included. Now the same battleship cost around 250mil. Yes there was changes to industry , extra materials etc , but when you take this into account cost change should be around 10-15%. Yes im aware that drone regions where nerfed and most of minerals came from them, reprocessing changed ... still. Prices are constantly increasing , and the only way for something to get really cheaper is making some stuff worthless by some CCP re balance. Every month you cannot buy the same stuff for 1b you managed in previous month. To what this will lead : Check this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation Btw. I have some stamps from this period. 0.10 base value and new value in black stamp on top of it. Guess the new value ....... 4.000.000 Something like here : http://zapatopi.net/blog/?post=200807307920.stamp_nook_hyperinflation Yes this is a game, game that wants to be REAL . Look at prices for common items for the past year and you'll see that they haven't gone up. Some have come down. If your inflation theory was true, you'd see an upward curve for every item. Like you said, price increases for battleships are a result of game changes, not inflation.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 513	Posted - 2014.11.24 23:08:14 - [116] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: PVP isn't an ISK sink. No money leaves the system when a ship is blown up. Destroyed modules need repurchased. Module repairs need effected. Ammunition is expended. Drones are lost.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 77	Posted - 2014.11.25 00:07:10 - [117] - Quote afkalt wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: PVP isn't an ISK sink. No money leaves the system when a ship is blown up. Destroyed modules need repurchased. Module repairs need effected. Ammunition is expended. Drones are lost. Modules, ammunition, and drones are all either found via loot. -- no ISK generated or lost to the system, or are manufactered -- slight sink for manufacturing fees. There are also fees for market transactions. Once again, this is not PVP. This is Industry and trade. The PVP pilot, if she just buys all the stuff, only pays a sink in trade fees. If she's using the stuff she found via looting the enemy, then she's contributed no ISK loss or gain to circulation. Her personal finances may go up and down, but the ISK in the system remained constant. PVP can lead to more industry and trade, and these lead to ISK sinks in manufacturing and trade fees. So while PVP doesn't actually generate or produce ISK into circulation, it can be a catalyst for other activities to do so. I can't really think of any fair way of taxing the PVPer specifically, let alone even want to try. Actually... scratch that. I guess war decs would count as a PVP-centric sink. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
Lady Rift What Shall We Call It 108	Posted - 2014.11.25 00:13:01 - [118] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: King Fu Hostile wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Goal is to create new way to pull this isk from the system in a some way - and not only assume that the best way to remove isk from game is to wait for someone to abandon his accounts. But still the question remains- why? Why do you think the economy needs a new ISK sink? When i started to play eve fitted Battleship was around 70mil , full fit and rigs included. Now the same battleship cost around 250mil. Yes there was changes to industry , extra materials etc , but when you take this into account cost change should be around 10-15%. the amount of minerals went up by more than 10% it was equalized to the teir 3's
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 785	Posted - 2014.11.25 00:15:37 - [119] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: afkalt wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: PVP isn't an ISK sink. No money leaves the system when a ship is blown up. Destroyed modules need repurchased. Module repairs need effected. Ammunition is expended. Drones are lost. Modules, ammunition, and drones are all either found via loot. -- no ISK generated or lost to the system, or are manufactered -- slight sink for manufacturing fees. There are also fees for market transactions. Once again, this is not PVP. This is Industry and trade. The PVP pilot, if she just buys all the stuff, only pays a sink in trade fees. If she's using the stuff she found via looting the enemy, then she's contributed no ISK loss or gain to circulation. Her personal finances may go up and down, but the ISK in the system remained constant. PVP can lead to more industry and trade, and these lead to ISK sinks in manufacturing and trade fees. So while PVP doesn't actually generate or produce ISK into circulation, it can be a catalyst for other activities to do so. I can't really think of any fair way of taxing the PVPer specifically, let alone even want to try. Actually... scratch that. I guess war decs would count as a PVP-centric sink. --Gadget Just a quick note that industry and trade are equally PvP as you are directly competing with other players, you may not be shooting them but can cost them isk just as effectively...
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 77	Posted - 2014.11.25 00:25:25 - [120] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: [ Just a quick note that industry and trade are equally PvP as you are directly competing with other players, you may not be shooting them but can cost them isk just as effectively... That's a given. I was refering to PVP in it's more focused meaning. Blowing each other up. :) --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck

Basil Pupkin Why So Platypus 62	Posted - 2014.11.25 06:17:54 - [121] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: -5% bounty is not much , and most of the ratters do rate in blue donut , so they get a bit more. Reprocessing change , sorry this have nothing to do with isk. When you reprocess stuff you don't get additional isk, just minerals. You have to difference assets and isk. So you propose to screw everyone not ratting in the blue donut? Anthar Thebess wrote: Look at this this way. You killed 100 bs rats, and you got 100mil isk from bounty and 100mil worth materials from reprocessing , and salvage. From those minerals you build yourself 3 battlecruisers, using those 100mil you bought fits. Day later you loose those ships in the fight. What happened to initial assets : 1. Minerals and salvage They where removed from the system , the moment those ship died. You or someone else can "recover" some of the salvage by salvaging those 3 wrecks, but this will be minimal amount of goods. 2.ISK from bounty. Isk was spent on fits, and ammunition, it was not destroyed with those ships, it just changed hands. What more , loosing those ships generated isk from insurance , so you got around 40-50mil to your wallet. Summarizing : From 100mil isk introduced into the system, and 100mil worth of minerals we got to the point that we have 140-150mil isk in the system and 0 isk in goods. Insurance is important for new players. Goal is to create new way to pull this isk from the system in a some way - and not only assume that the best way to remove isk from game is to wait for someone to abandon his accounts. Didn't you just said that assets have nothing to do with ISK, and then instantly converted them to ISK there? I don't like your math. Somewhere in the middle fits disappeared and bounty appeared out of nowhere. And it somehow added 100m to the flow. Not to mention that insurance is already not covering much on most current pvp doctrines - T2 and T3 hulls - producing those takes a lot more than just minerals, and good ratting ships costs even more than those. A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
Mina Sebiestar Mactabilis Simplex Cursus 766	Posted - 2014.11.25 06:30:50 - [122] - Quote Tax on local chat you want intel pay concord... A lot hi lo or blue sec regardless. *cough il take my leave now
Anthar Thebess 806	Posted - 2014.11.25 07:56:46 - [123] - Quote I stated that assets are not isk. This was just used as an example. 1.Obtained minerals where used to build ships. 2.Those minerals where used to build ships , and with those ships they where removed from system. 3.Loosing those ships generated insurance ISK. ( this is good for new players) Example was about that isk obtained at the same time as materials, don't die with the ships, just change hands. PHOEBE Retrospective
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 1991	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:00:23 - [124] - Quote Affordable faction modules. Most of them are barely better than tech 2 yet barely cheaper than deadspace so everyone just fits deadspace instead. If faction modules were more affordable (considering overall price) while a good chunk of their market value was the ISK cost from the LP store, they would get used a lot more and that would mean large amounts of ISK being drained into LP stores. Giving LP stores more options for things you can buy with mostly just ISK would really help put a cap on inflation because inflation would cause those particular items to become cheaper, increasing their popularity, causing ISK to go to LP stores, causing deflation. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Anthar Thebess 807	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:14:14 - [125] - Quote Faction modules from LP stores are good isk sinks. If they are worthless - they are quite cheap, on the opposite if they are kind of "OP" then their price goes to dozens or hundred of millions. Why Republic Fleet Points are so expensive? Because when you mount it on ship that will apply bonuses , and use this "overload" button. You get something very interesting ;) Expanding LP stores can be good, but at thing same time we will create big pressure on T2 market. Now why LP store items are good to eve : Republic Fleet Warp Scrambler What do you need to get one from NPC: LP : 80,000 ISK: 32,000,000 & tags. So each time this kind module is bought 32milion isk is being removed from the game. PHOEBE Retrospective
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 1991	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:24:01 - [126] - Quote They should cut back on those LP costs, especially for faction modules where the only difference between them and tech 2 is CPU cost. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Anthar Thebess 807	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:41:26 - [127] - Quote Well thats the point why they are so expensive. Few cpu units here , few there ... and you can fit something better. Price of those modules is dictated by players mostly. Every thing above those 32mil for Republic Fleet Distruptor or Scrambler is added by players. Look at the Republic Fleet Point and Scrambler. They both cost the same in LP stores , yet on the market there is usually 40mil price difference between them. If you make faction modules to cheap, T2 market will be affected. Some work can be done ( like someone already stated before) to boost the isk cost of the modules in LP store at the cost of LP needed. PHOEBE Retrospective
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 279	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:43:16 - [128] - Quote Still looking for proofs of inflation
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 1991	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:52:21 - [129] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Still looking for proofs of inflation price of plex is proof. It has been steadily rising since they came out. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Anthar Thebess 807	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:55:40 - [130] - Quote Prof about inflation? When i started playing you could buy Dread hull for 500mil on local market, i was not living in the drone regions. Since then : - there was slight nerf to npc bounty - boost to ratting ships dps - changes to production , that both raised and lowered minerals needs to build dreadnought. Hard to say now , but i don't expect that total change will be not bigger than 15% any way. Currently the same dread hull cost 2.5bil. Total Change 2bil. Good enough? Remember that this 500mil price tag was local market , and people where very happy to sell those ships on this price. PHOEBE Retrospective

Anthar Thebess 807	Posted - 2014.11.25 08:56:28 - [131] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: King Fu Hostile wrote: Still looking for proofs of inflation price of plex is proof. It has been steadily rising since they came out. Eh .. don't link plex to isk sinks. Please. Plex have unique value. Edit. Just to remind you, plex at some point was isk sink, as you where buying similar codes from NPC for isk. If i remember correctly you could buy 2 months of game for 200 mil? So yes this kinds also proves how much isk lost value. Still remember those isk spamers in each system :D PHOEBE Retrospective
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 78	Posted - 2014.11.25 09:01:02 - [132] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Still looking for proofs of inflation Let me see if I can find some long term ore prices. That might be the best indicator of how much inflation (if any) has affected EvE as a whole. Reaver, PLEX is a wierd animal. It gets hoarded and manipulated by players far too often for it to be a good indicator of inflation. If the price of PLEX has steadily risen, and the price of basic comodities hasn't, then it's the PLEX that's being screwed with. Measure inflation by the price of a loaf of bread, or cup of rice, not the price of a luxury car. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 516	Posted - 2014.11.25 09:20:39 - [133] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: afkalt wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: PVP isn't an ISK sink. No money leaves the system when a ship is blown up. Destroyed modules need repurchased. Module repairs need effected. Ammunition is expended. Drones are lost. Modules, ammunition, and drones are all either found via loot. -- no ISK generated or lost to the system, or are manufactered -- slight sink for manufacturing fees. There are also fees for market transactions. Once again, this is not PVP. This is Industry and trade. The PVP pilot, if she just buys all the stuff, only pays a sink in trade fees. If she's using the stuff she found via looting the enemy, then she's contributed no ISK loss or gain to circulation. Her personal finances may go up and down, but the ISK in the system remained constant. PVP can lead to more industry and trade, and these lead to ISK sinks in manufacturing and trade fees. So while PVP doesn't actually generate or produce ISK into circulation, it can be a catalyst for other activities to do so. I can't really think of any fair way of taxing the PVPer specifically, let alone even want to try. Actually... scratch that. I guess war decs would count as a PVP-centric sink. --Gadget Only to a point. MOST ammo in PvP is faction which tends to be bought with LP sinks. Repairs are a flat out sink. T2 mods have their share of sinks too.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 78	Posted - 2014.11.25 09:28:00 - [134] - Quote http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/110224-tritanium-price-history/ Here's one example. Trit at 3.4 ISK in Spring of 2008, then a dip to 2.8 for a small period, but then a steady rise to 4.2 buy Spring of 2009. Currently it's at around 5.7 ISK. This is the most basic building block, so it's an indicator of some inflation. Better yet are the posters' responses to the change. The dip was a noted anomaly even then, but after the dip the price steadily rose to what we have now. The game only stores up to a year, so I have to scour the internet for older screenshots. I know that one instance doesn't make the rule, but I'll keep looking for older prices and for other minerals and edit them in this post. If any have any screenshots of older mineral market graphs, please post them. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 78	Posted - 2014.11.25 09:43:13 - [135] - Quote afkalt wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: afkalt wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: PVP isn't an ISK sink. No money leaves the system when a ship is blown up. Destroyed modules need repurchased. Module repairs need effected. Ammunition is expended. Drones are lost. Modules, ammunition, and drones are all either found via loot. -- no ISK generated or lost to the system, or are manufactered -- slight sink for manufacturing fees. There are also fees for market transactions. Once again, this is not PVP. This is Industry and trade. The PVP pilot, if she just buys all the stuff, only pays a sink in trade fees. If she's using the stuff she found via looting the enemy, then she's contributed no ISK loss or gain to circulation. Her personal finances may go up and down, but the ISK in the system remained constant. PVP can lead to more industry and trade, and these lead to ISK sinks in manufacturing and trade fees. So while PVP doesn't actually generate or produce ISK into circulation, it can be a catalyst for other activities to do so. I can't really think of any fair way of taxing the PVPer specifically, let alone even want to try. Actually... scratch that. I guess war decs would count as a PVP-centric sink. --Gadget Only to a point. MOST ammo in PvP is faction which tends to be bought with LP sinks. Repairs are a flat out sink. T2 mods have their share of sinks too. But that's an option. The PVPer could just as easily be using T2 or T1, or may have been given the ammo. The act of buying faction ammo on the market isn't a sink... well, except for the market fees. I'll say again, PVP may lead to sinks, but isn't a sink in itself. The reason that this is an important distinction comes down to where changes would be made to open (or tighten) the sinks. How could you fairly do anything to PVP itself that would enable more or less cash from leaving the game? Paying a sink for being podded (because only players will pod others) and war deccing costs are the only things I can think of currently that are sinks directly from PVP combat, and the podding costs are going away on the 9th. As for the things that PVP affects, like buying/making ammo and other things. Doing anything to PVP combat won't affect those all that much. At least not in the way of sinks. --Gadget --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 516	Posted - 2014.11.25 10:09:41 - [136] - Quote The faction ammo sink is in the LP store cost the lister pays. Unless they are using tags I guess, I don't usually. It was repairs from overheat (as I usually rep too). Overheat repairs get pricey fast. OH is usually reserved for PvPers. You can use nanite, but unless you're making your own the stations work out cheaper (but can still be eye watering).
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 787	Posted - 2014.11.25 10:17:45 - [137] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/110224-tritanium-price-history/ Here's one example. Trit at 3.4 ISK in Spring of 2008, then a dip to 2.8 for a small period, but then a steady rise to 4.2 buy Spring of 2009. Currently it's at around 5.7 ISK. This is the most basic building block, so it's an indicator of some inflation. Better yet are the posters' responses to the change. The dip was a noted anomaly even then, but after the dip the price steadily rose to what we have now. The game only stores up to a year, so I have to scour the internet for older screenshots. I know that one instance doesn't make the rule, but I'll keep looking for older prices and for other minerals and edit them in this post. If any have any screenshots of older mineral market graphs, please post them. --Gadget Rising by that amount in 6 years is really not an excessive amount of inflation, every functioning market always has some level of inflation. one common belief (how true it is I'm not sure ) is that the actual value of the money you have halves every 10 years or so, which would put the trit inflation you quoted pretty much on normal market timescales. To work out inflation you'd need to do it the same way our governments do with a 'typical shopping basket' list of items to act as a standard checkpoint. PLEX could never be considered a normal item in such a calculation and would therfore be completely excluded.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1711	Posted - 2014.11.25 10:50:13 - [138] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/110224-tritanium-price-history/ Here's one example. Trit at 3.4 ISK in Spring of 2008, then a dip to 2.8 for a small period, but then a steady rise to 4.2 buy Spring of 2009. Currently it's at around 5.7 ISK. This is the most basic building block, so it's an indicator of some inflation. Better yet are the posters' responses to the change. The dip was a noted anomaly even then, but after the dip the price steadily rose to what we have now. The game only stores up to a year, so I have to scour the internet for older screenshots. I know that one instance doesn't make the rule, but I'll keep looking for older prices and for other minerals and edit them in this post. If any have any screenshots of older mineral market graphs, please post them. --Gadget You do of course know that a number of changes have been made to the game and that those price changes can all be directly traced to a specific supply & demand change. Such as Trit quantities being increased in certain ores. Build requirements of certain classes of ships being made. Changes in reprocessing. And a lot of the spikes can be traced to Null sec battles. The Mineral market has shown zero evidence of inflation, responding instead to pure supply & demand from game changes. The last announcement on CCP for inflation was that we actually were experiencing deflation. And since then they have increased isk sinks more than isk faucets.
wentrox Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2014.11.25 10:50:51 - [139] - Quote Remove the NPC Bounty completly. Yes! Feel the pain. You will only got small amount of isk by completing missions/anomalies. Make NPC drop more loot, yes, feel the gathering pain, but wait - the mobile tractors! Make the NPC corps buy comon tech1 equip/minerals/etc. Nulsec farmers will be in very high need of logistics. No more isk from air. But it never be done.
Ssabat Thraxx Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project 1003	Posted - 2014.11.25 10:54:39 - [140] - Quote Didnt read the whole thread, so pardon if it's already been mentioned, but an in-game casino would most certainly work. I read somewhere else that CCP said they couldnt do it due to gambling laws in some countries or something along those lines. I'm not sure if thats right (that they even said that) because back in the day the original EQ put in a casino to counter inflation (brought on by a currency duplicating exploit) and it worked marvelously. Just look at all the traffic Blink got, and now iwantisk and other sites get. Ppl luvs to gamble \m/ O.o \m/ "You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project

Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 787	Posted - 2014.11.25 11:02:59 - [141] - Quote Ssabat Thraxx wrote: Ppl luvs to gamble And remember folks...the house always wins...
voetius Quiet Days in Clichy 300	Posted - 2014.11.25 11:17:45 - [142] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Well thats the point why they are so expensive. Few cpu units here , few there ... and you can fit something better. Price of those modules is dictated by players mostly. Every thing above those 32mil for Republic Fleet Distruptor or Scrambler is added by players. Look at the Republic Fleet Point and Scrambler. They both cost the same in LP stores , yet on the market there is usually 40mil price difference between them. If you make faction modules to cheap, T2 market will be affected. Some work can be done ( like someone already stated before) to boost the isk cost of the modules in LP store at the cost of LP needed. The price is dictated for most of the modules by the tag cost and that is determined by a combination of player pricing but more importantly by the floor on prices set by NPC buy orders. A simple way to let tag prices float downwards would be to remove NPC buy orders for tags. This would have the effect to reduce the price of faction guns and modules which could do with being more inline with T2 (in my opinion). Another approach would be double the tag drop rate, this wouldn't screw over mission runners that run the anti-faction missions quite as much as removing NPC buy orders, but a combination of both would work as well. COSMOS is another area that could do with a look at. Many of the modules are okay but the small drop rates on some bottleneck items mean cost to build is prohibitive.
Anthar Thebess 807	Posted - 2014.11.25 11:42:09 - [143] - Quote What you are stating will not change much . Lets look at the : Caldari Navy Vice Admiral Insignia I NPC buy price : 500k Player buy orders : 3.5kk What happens if we remove or reduce NPC buy orders : nothing , players need this more than NPC, and pay much more for this. What happens if we double drop rate for those tags? Price will be reduced, but still those tags will be needed. Isk for tags will still flow between people. Yes some of the faction items will become less expensive for some time, they will be more often used , question is do we want to have more faction based fits that will outperform and in some cases replace T2 stuff for most of the people? Example Isk sinks that are already in place: - SOV bill - LP store isk requirements - Production/ invention/ market fee - Ship insurance ( as long as ship don't die before insurance expires ) - Clone upgrade costs - Every isk spent on "Trash" bought from NPC - Repair costs on NPC stations. In all of those cases you pay isk to NPC for item, or service. Simple idea for next ISK sink. Currently rearing bill on sov station can be set to 0. Why we cannot boost this a bit, and again create NPC fee for all repairs , but to keep sov station bonus in some way the base NPC fee for repairs will be 25% of total fee you pay on NPC station. Every thing above this value goes to the wallet of station owner. Will people start to use repair modules - yes. But people will pay for fixing all overheated modules. PHOEBE Retrospective
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 1991	Posted - 2014.11.25 11:54:31 - [144] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Reaver, PLEX is a wierd animal. It gets hoarded and manipulated by players far too often for it to be a good indicator of inflation. If the price of PLEX has steadily risen, and the price of basic comodities hasn't, then it's the PLEX that's being screwed with. Measure inflation by the price of a loaf of bread, or cup of rice, not the price of a luxury car. --Gadget Well then I challenge anyone to find anything on the market that hasn't gone up in price over a 2 year+ interval at any point in the game's history. For every one you find, I'll give you a hundred that have. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 787	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:05:36 - [145] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Reaver, PLEX is a wierd animal. It gets hoarded and manipulated by players far too often for it to be a good indicator of inflation. If the price of PLEX has steadily risen, and the price of basic comodities hasn't, then it's the PLEX that's being screwed with. Measure inflation by the price of a loaf of bread, or cup of rice, not the price of a luxury car. --Gadget Well then I challenge anyone to find anything on the market that hasn't gone up in price over a 2 year+ interval at any point in the game's history. For every one you find, I'll give you a hundred that have. But it doesn't matter if everything has gone up in price as long as it is in line with a level of inflation suitable for a healthy economy, it's only when inflation goes out of control that there is a problem and there is now evidence of it being out of control (ignoring plex which doesn't apply).
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 41	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:13:48 - [146] - Quote So can somebody explain why PLEX got so high in price if its not influation?
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 1992	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:16:33 - [147] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: But it doesn't matter if everything has gone up in price as long as it is in line with a level of inflation suitable for a healthy economy, it's only when inflation goes out of control that there is a problem and there is now evidence of it being out of control (ignoring plex which doesn't apply). We were responding to someone who asked for proof of inflation. I'm not saying the inflation is bad, I'm saying there definitely is inflation. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 472	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:33:39 - [148] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: -shortened- If you make faction modules to cheap, T2 market will be affected. I hate to breake it to you but you are contradicting yourself here. Any faction item you get from any LP store removes isk - poof, gone! What haz some market to do with what you are demanding we are finding solutions for? Didn't you want to find a replacement isk sink? Faction items are! Make them useful and affordable, there you go, isk sunk - kaput. Nobody cares about moon poo but the moon poo people and moon poo doesn't create or remove isk but moon poo, ice products, minerals and plantetary poo. signature
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 1992	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:47:29 - [149] - Quote I think he was saying that if faction items got too cheap, nobody would want tech 2 anymore. But there's a long ways to go before that happens. It's just kind of ret+írded when the faction variant costs a hundred times as much as tech 2 and actually has lower stats. Some faction items offer very strong advantages (Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer), and some are completely useless (Shadow Serpentis Large Blasters). It'd be nice if faction items were adjusted to offer bonuses more in line with their listed meta values, and then have their prices diminished a lot. If you cut their LP cost to 1/4th across the board, it would not trash the value of the LPs, on the contrary you might see as much as or more than a 300% increase in how often they are purchased and used because they'll start getting fitted onto throw-away ships instead of only on carebear blingships. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 516	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:54:46 - [150] - Quote Remember balancing screws with prices too. For example all the faction shield boosters got a big hike in a drive to improve local tanking; deadspace did not. Thus faction prices climb and deadspace drop. It is fatal to ignore balancing when looking at price rises - a classic example here would be the gila or worm.

Anthar Thebess 809	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:57:08 - [151] - Quote Lidia Caderu wrote: So can somebody explain why PLEX got so high in price if its not influation? Plex price went so high because : 1. Isk have no value , and plex at the same time constant value = 1 month of subscription. Why keep your isk in ISK that constantly loose value if you can buy plex, you can always pay 1 month of subscription, and if you sell this plex for isk , you will get the same isk you paid for it. 2.Dual and tripple character skilling. People need more plexes. 3. Alt accounts How many alt accounts do you have? 1, 2? 20? 30? This is not a joke, many people have more than a dozen alt accounts. Those people usually pay subscription for 1-2 main accounts, and use income generated by alt accounts to plex them. You can easily maintain those accounts if you have: - 1 alt making isk on PI/Mining/Ratting - 1 cyno alt - 1 alt skilled just to sell it at some point 4. Eve : Skills Offline Many players didn't like capital swarms, and gigantic renter empires we had and still have now. They didn't quit eve, just use their assets and isk to plex 1-2 accounts and skill characters while waiting or something to change. (btw. CCP we are waiting for SOV changes) 5.Specific role of plex. This is not any other item in eve. You cannot produce it, it don't drop any where - someone have to buy one from CCP in order for it to get on the market. 6.Speculation. When you consider the above it is easy to raise price of the plex few millions every day. Like you see , plex will have always some additional value , that will not be affected by isk sinks, because unless CCP adds something that will allow people to run their alt accounts for isk , plex demand will be stable. Yes at some point it is possible that plex will be worth less isk, but i don't think it will lose value when you compare plex price to ship hull prices or something similar showing current eve health status. So please don't link ISK sinks to Plex prices. Isk sinks will reduce only speculation, and only when much more than now isk will be removed from the system. If you want cheep plexes on the market ask CCP for big promotion, this can reduce nicely ISK prices. My goal , and goal of this topic is to stop or reduce the inflation that makes ship hulls, modules , ammo more expensive every month. If i have 500mil i prefer to buy 5 ships and loose them in flames of glory , rather buy 1 ship and be afraid to undock , as i don't have any spare ships now. Boosting income will just speedup the inflation , and have very bad impact on the new players. PHOEBE Retrospective
Anthar Thebess 809	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:59:24 - [152] - Quote afkalt wrote: Remember balancing screws with prices too. For example all the faction shield boosters got a big hike in a drive to improve local tanking; deadspace did not. Thus faction prices climb and deadspace drop. It is fatal to ignore balancing when looking at price rises - a classic example here would be the gila or worm. DED stuff started to drop when T3 ships where forbidden from entering higsec 4/10. Shield boosters where used mostly on Tengu running those sites. Next item that affected those item prices was the quiet year on the SOV front. People could farm, and farm .... PHOEBE Retrospective
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 787	Posted - 2014.11.25 12:59:45 - [153] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: But it doesn't matter if everything has gone up in price as long as it is in line with a level of inflation suitable for a healthy economy, it's only when inflation goes out of control that there is a problem and there is now evidence of it being out of control (ignoring plex which doesn't apply). We were responding to someone who asked for proof of inflation. I'm not saying the inflation is bad, I'm saying there definitely is inflation. True enough and an important point, there is definitely inflation over time. The issue would be whether it is healthy or out of control. Right now my opinion would be that it's fine at the moment. I would imagine that CCP keep a very close eye on this kind of thing so not to really tic everyone off with prices rising too fast
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1891	Posted - 2014.11.25 15:37:17 - [154] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: This game really needs good isk sink. Currently economy is slowly falling because prices are growing and growing. Reasons for current situations are many : - ships where boosted , more dps = faster and more efficient ratting - smart bombing ratting fleets are all around renter space became quite common - ships are dying ( each lost ship don't remove isk from game, just create it from the air ) - etc Some drastic measures needs to be put in place. This also have to be done without harming any current system - like LP Stores, or missions. Please post your ideas here , maybe some Dev will look at this and put some of your ideas into actions EDIT: Please stop linking this thread to raising PLEX prices. Plex is not created by players or obtained by any PVE activity. If all people start to earn 50% less isk , and PLEX price will drop by 50% , there will be any real change for plex price. There is no possibility that any ISK sink will reduce VALUE , again VALUE of the PLEX. Price might drop, as there will be less isk, but it will be still MORE EXPENSIVE when you include your reduced income. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I already posted this several times. Supercapital mantainance fee. 5 bil per month for titan 1 bil per month for SC. Either we will have a great isk sink or we will have less titans being built :P "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode isd community communications liaisons 3489	Posted - 2014.11.25 16:32:54 - [155] - Quote Removed some off topic posts. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 1995	Posted - 2014.11.26 00:24:06 - [156] - Quote afkalt wrote: Remember balancing screws with prices too. For example all the faction shield boosters got a big hike in a drive to improve local tanking; deadspace did not. Thus faction prices climb and deadspace drop. It is fatal to ignore balancing when looking at price rises - a classic example here would be the gila or worm. What's fatal is altering one module without considering the impact it has on other variations of the same type. It's one thing to buff faction shield boosters because they believe the gap between faction and deadspace too great, and the gap between faction and lower too small, but it's another thing entirely to buff faction shield boosters to boost shield tanking in general. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 479	Posted - 2014.11.26 01:57:18 - [157] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: What's fatal is altering one module without considering the impact it has on other variations of the same type. It's one thing to buff faction shield boosters because they believe the gap between faction and deadspace too great, and the gap between faction and lower too small, but it's another thing entirely to buff faction shield boosters to boost shield tanking in general. They did that because they almost nerfed links and gave shield boosters and armor reps a tiny buff in hp/s. But what happened was: CCP said logi too stronkh', nerf all ships with resistence We: But why not nerf logi instead?? CCP: buff shield boosters and armor reps by 10% and here take ancillery boosters and reps We: ..... CCP: and pls don't make duoble-xl-asb fits in the tournament, that's crazy We: ...but you gave us CCP: nah, we said it's interesting gameplay, so make it interesting We: signature
Irya Boone Never Surrender. 407	Posted - 2014.11.26 02:28:41 - [158] - Quote The only ISK sink the game need is: A fare for using a station ( corporation already have some kind of this) and I would be greatly effective to make people pay , and pay a lot to STAY in station and make the price depend on number of people In the station ( or the number of people whom have assets in the station), you have to pay for the maintenance etc etc It would replace the old clone system. And would like to see someone docked in jita paying 200 M for 30 minutes etc etc and would make the price very high for people in NPC corporations when they have more than 120 days of paid subscription. The longer you stay dock , the more you pay! More people in station , the more you pay! The longer you stay in a Npc corp the more you pay !! Same system as station utilities fares.etc CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!
Brutalis Furia Hammer and Anvil Industries 13	Posted - 2014.11.26 02:51:31 - [159] - Quote Antillie Sa'Kan wrote: Cyndrogen wrote: I think you're thinking about it the wrong way. Eve needs MORE players. Players drive the economy, offer better choices to get more people in game and doing something useful. DUST is free, Eve online still has an antiquated subscription model which doesn't really offer much in terms of value other then access to the game. I would like to see a store with FITTED, yes FITTED ships that players could purchase so I can invite friends and play a session. Basically it's like the old arcade games, you can pay a quarter to fly a fitted ship, you lose it you pay another quarter. Just like arcade machines. lol no. lol yes. This would be an excellent way to teach newer players how to fit ships. Eve has always had a accessibility barrier, and new players need mentors to thrive. This would be a way to breach (partially) that barrier.
Sabriz Adoudel Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 3742	Posted - 2014.11.26 03:28:37 - [160] - Quote 1) Kill insurance, but keep some form of it for new characters (ones whose lifetime income, counting all deposits from all sources listed in their wallet journal, total 250m or less). 2) Replace some or better yet most of the liquid ISK obtained through highsec incursions with more LP. 3) Replace some of the liquid ISK gained from anomoly ratting with other rewards, such as deadspace modules. 4) Purely cosmetic items sold for ISK prices by NPCs. Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10

Rob Kashuken Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 62	Posted - 2014.11.26 06:30:44 - [161] - Quote As a pure sink: Wages for the crew of the ship whilst active in space, scaled by the size of the ship. So deeming a set value of isk/hour in space as 'x', frigates would be 0.5s isk day, destroyers would be 1.0x, cruisers 1.5 etc. T2 ships could have an additional multiplier (higher skilled ships would require a more specialized crew). Factional ships could have a cost benefit in terms of cheaper to run (as they have a more expensive initial outlay).
Anthar Thebess 811	Posted - 2014.11.26 07:16:19 - [162] - Quote More LP from mission while getting less ISK is good idea. This can pull even more isk from the system. What do you think about adding more stuff to LP stores. For example some pirate faction stuff you can get from faction drops is not located in the LP store. So all : - sansha - serpentis - etc. items will be also available on LP store. PHOEBE Retrospective
Anthar Thebess 811	Posted - 2014.11.26 07:19:39 - [163] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: I already posted this several times. Supercapital mantainance fee. 5 bil per month for titan 1 bil per month for SC. Either we will have a great isk sink or we will have less titans being built :P This could be interesting, and i could also vote for this. But what about people : - who own a super, and don't use it, it is just logged out somewhere on the alt account - what about unsubbed accounts - what about people who bought supers before this change? - what about groups who need supers to compete with current "super powers" ? I think it is to late to change those rules. PHOEBE Retrospective
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 668	Posted - 2014.11.26 07:20:08 - [164] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: More LP from mission while getting less ISK is good idea. This can pull even more isk from the system. What do you think about adding more stuff to LP stores. For example some pirate faction stuff you can get from faction drops is not located in the LP store. So all : - sansha - serpentis - etc. items will be also available on LP store. My like was provisional. IF we need a sink, more LP/less isk is the easiest to implement, smoothest sink that could e introduced that people wouldn't whine too much about. But no, all faction and deadspace items (with the exception of ammo I'd say) that currently drops only from faction rats shoudl continue to only drop from faction rats. To allow them in LP stores while buffing LP gain would most likely cause a rapid drop in the value of conventionally sourced faction mods. That would be bad.
Anthar Thebess 811	Posted - 2014.11.26 07:27:42 - [165] - Quote I don't include here for example True Sansha stuff, and dead space. Just the normal version of all pirate stuff. PHOEBE Retrospective
Brutalis Furia Hammer and Anvil Industries 13	Posted - 2014.11.26 07:33:59 - [166] - Quote Blood Raider goodies, just not Dark Blood?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1714	Posted - 2014.11.26 09:45:43 - [167] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: True enough and an important point, there is definitely inflation over time. The issue would be whether it is healthy or out of control. Right now my opinion would be that it's fine at the moment. I would imagine that CCP keep a very close eye on this kind of thing so not to really tic everyone off with prices rising too fast Except.... There isn't. EVE has periods of deflation also. Inflation also is not a requirement for a healthy market. That's a myth propagated by big business. Price changes can all be traced to direct game changes. Starting with the removal of the NPC sold shuttles which capped Trit prices for example. And up to the most recent massive increases in minerals for things and decrease in mineral production from the refining changes. Even Plex prices can be traced to increased demand leading to increased speculation over them. This entire thread is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.
Ceawlin Cobon-Han Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 37	Posted - 2014.11.26 09:52:00 - [168] - Quote Make broker fees variable, depending on the volume of trade carried out in that station. The higher the volume (more popular) the higher the brokerage fees. While no fees can drop below 1% unmodified, they can climb. This will ensure Jita becomes a massive isk sink, with the side effect of pressuring trade to disperse more throughout New Eden. Don't think it will cripple trade. People will still come to buy and sell. If the prices climb to offset the increased cost of trading then the amount taken in sales tax increases, removing more isk from the game. I await the whines of butthurt station traders. Please begin.
Kagura Nikon Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness 1904	Posted - 2014.11.26 10:00:54 - [169] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Kagura Nikon wrote: I already posted this several times. Supercapital mantainance fee. 5 bil per month for titan 1 bil per month for SC. Either we will have a great isk sink or we will have less titans being built :P This could be interesting, and i could also vote for this. But what about people : - who own a super, and don't use it, it is just logged out somewhere on the alt account - what about unsubbed accounts - what about people who bought supers before this change? - what about groups who need supers to compete with current "super powers" ? I think it is to late to change those rules. In order : - Make the payment based on real world date. how many days since your last payment? More than 30? then no jump drive for you. - See above.. the same. When you return if you want to use your jump drive.. pay the monthly fee. -Those are exaclty the ones that need to be affected. Too many in game - This is one of the rare changes that would affect MORE the superpowers than the smaller groups. Smaller groups do not have surplus reserve supers. They still have not filled the characters that actively would use them. While super powers have lots of people in supers that never even use them, just in case,, as a reserve force. This reserve forces would cost a small fortune this way. "If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!" For the rest hire PoH \| Recruitment
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 788	Posted - 2014.11.26 11:23:54 - [170] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: True enough and an important point, there is definitely inflation over time. The issue would be whether it is healthy or out of control. Right now my opinion would be that it's fine at the moment. I would imagine that CCP keep a very close eye on this kind of thing so not to really tic everyone off with prices rising too fast Except.... There isn't. EVE has periods of deflation also. Inflation also is not a requirement for a healthy market. That's a myth propagated by big business. Price changes can all be traced to direct game changes. Starting with the removal of the NPC sold shuttles which capped Trit prices for example. And up to the most recent massive increases in minerals for things and decrease in mineral production from the refining changes. Even Plex prices can be traced to increased demand leading to increased speculation over them. This entire thread is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist. I'd say there is always inflation depending on the timescale you take :D Completely agree that there is no issue though.

Terraj Oknatis Perkone Caldari State 7	Posted - 2014.11.26 14:34:00 - [171] - Quote PVP is a material sink not an isk sink. An "ISK Sink" refers to any mechanic where ISK leaving a players wallet is not going into another players wallet, i.e. the ISK is being absorbed or destroyed by a NPC entity. PvP (destroying ships) is not an ISK Sink. PVP is a material sink because a ship and modules are destroyed, and it is an ISK faucet as the victim receives insurance. The original purchase of the ship is an ISK Transfer. Lets get that out of the way first and foremost. Now that we removed this false notion from our minds we have a major problem with inflation coming on December 9th. The biggest isk sink in the game; Clone Upgrades is going to be removed from the game. This will cause inflation unless counter balances are implemented. After december 9th we have 3 isk faucets. These isk faucets in order of magnitude are: 1. Ratting payouts 2. Insurance payments 3. Mission isk rewards There are also 5 Isk sinks: 1.Purchasing from NPC Buy-Orders (Trade Goods, POS Equipment, Blueprint Originals). 2. Purchasing Insurance (but not claiming). 3. Sales Taxes. 4. Office Rental Fees. 5. Bounty Reduction Fees (Not the tags themselves) The trick here is balancing all 8 of these items so that the amount of isk in the game doesn't overflow the bathtub or drain it. I am in favor of removing faucet option 3 because ratting is not fun and it is by far the biggest faucet by many orders of magnitude. I hate that players can do an activity in the game that magically generates isk for no reason at all. It doesnt make any damn sense. However that idea is pretty radical so I guess it would be more reasonable to adjust each one slightly as not to offend any one group. Raise taxes a little, lower insurance some, reduce ratting payouts by a margin, reduce isk mission rewards, increase the price of POS equipment and BPO's, increase sales tax, increase office rental fees, and increase Bounty reduction fees. Turn down each faucet slightly and drill bigger holes into the sinks so the bathtub stays at a nice even level and also that perfect temperature just before it starts to burn. I don't think they will do anything as radical as adding a whole new sink. I think they can manage to balance the existing ones to make it work. If they do add a new sink they are definitely not going to go offending capital pilots further with maintenance fees and the likes. Those guys already got nerfed pretty hard last month. CCP is aware of these forces and I'm sure can manage to balance these numbers to quell inflation without doing anything in your face drastic. They will need some time to for the dust to settle before adjustment.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 522	Posted - 2014.11.26 14:43:40 - [172] - Quote If you really think clone costs are a "major" isk sink with the majority of people living in high sec, never dying....I don't know what to tell you. People bitched about them because they hit the cornerstone of the game - pewpew. There are also more isk sinks and faucets than you listed.
Terraj Oknatis Perkone Caldari State 7	Posted - 2014.11.26 15:24:01 - [173] - Quote afkalt wrote: If you really think clone costs are a "major" isk sink with the majority of people living in high sec, never dying....I don't know what to tell you. People bitched about them because they hit the cornerstone of the game - pewpew. There are also more isk sinks and faucets than you listed. Clones can sink upwards of 100 million isk per pod death. Thats pretty significant. I don't have the numbers but saying that nobody dies in high sec not only isn't true but is an overgeneralization. More importantly where the pilot is podded is irrelevant. A pod is a pod and you still have to replace it with a new and upgraded clone. You may be correct to say that taxes is the biggest sink in the aggregate. Taxes sink a certain percentage of sales from the market per transaction. There are a lot of transactions so maybe all CCP needs to do is make a simple and slight tax adjustment. I would like to know what the other sinks and faucets are that you would have mentioned. Im sure there may be more but that is a mute point as it would be more things CCP could play with to reduce inflation. I still stand with my initial point that CCP has enough numbers to play with to quell inflation.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 479	Posted - 2014.11.26 15:24:34 - [174] - Quote Terraj Oknatis wrote: -poop- 3. Mission isk rewards I am in favor of removing faucet option 3 because ratting is not fun and it is by far the biggest faucet by many orders of magnitude. I hate that players can do an activity in the game that magically generates isk for no reason at all. It doesnt make any damn sense. -even more poop- So the only thing a noob would be doing is waving her hands and wait for magic so stuff get there to make something imaginary with it. Biomass your npc naow! signature
Terraj Oknatis Perkone Caldari State 7	Posted - 2014.11.26 15:40:02 - [175] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Terraj Oknatis wrote: -poop- 3. Mission isk rewards I am in favor of removing faucet option 3 because ratting is not fun and it is by far the biggest faucet by many orders of magnitude. I hate that players can do an activity in the game that magically generates isk for no reason at all. It doesnt make any damn sense. -even more poop- So the only thing a noob would be doing is waving her hands and wait for magic so stuff get there to make something imaginary with it. Biomass your npc naow! However that idea is pretty radical so...
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 522	Posted - 2014.11.26 16:21:28 - [176] - Quote Terraj Oknatis wrote: afkalt wrote: If you really think clone costs are a "major" isk sink with the majority of people living in high sec, never dying....I don't know what to tell you. People bitched about them because they hit the cornerstone of the game - pewpew. There are also more isk sinks and faucets than you listed. Clones can sink upwards of 100 million isk per pod death. Thats pretty significant. I don't have the numbers but saying that nobody dies in high sec not only isn't true but is an overgeneralization. More importantly where the pilot is podded is irrelevant. A pod is a pod and you still have to replace it with a new and upgraded clone. You may be correct to say that taxes is the biggest sink in the aggregate. Taxes sink a certain percentage of sales from the market per transaction. There are a lot of transactions so maybe all CCP needs to do is make a simple and slight tax adjustment. I would like to know what the other sinks and faucets are that you would have mentioned. Im sure there may be more but that is a mute point as it would be more things CCP could play with to reduce inflation. I still stand with my initial point that CCP has enough numbers to play with to quell inflation. Where people die is relevant in this case - it is not unreasonable to state that most of pod losses are in null/WH space. Then we must consider the relative population skew when considering how many people pay said clone tax. One of my alts is in the 50-70-odd million SP range, so it's a 9.x million pod. Not many have 100m pods. The point being - where they are podded relative to the population shows the effectiveness of said sink - and given the minority of the population are paying it most often tells us the sink is a poor one - an after thought at best. There are sinks in science and industry, loyalty point stores, repair costs (module, mainly) - faucets also include NPC buy orders for kit. To be honest, I'd expect a months worth of clone costs to be covered by a days worth of trade taxes, maybe even an hour.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 82	Posted - 2014.11.26 18:15:36 - [177] - Quote Comprehensive list of sinks and faucets: Faucets: Mission Rewards Insurance Payments NPC Buy Orders Ratting Bounties Sinks: Clone upgrades (gone on Dec 9th) Jump Clone Installation SCC Taxes (Market) Industry Taxes Repairs LP Purchaces (with ISK) Insurance Purchace Leaving the Game Rent (to NPC's) Market Purchaces from NPC Sell Orders Tag Fees PI Transport Fees (to the NPC) PI Set-up Fees The above is just a list of the current faucets and sinks. This list will be updated whenever one not listed is mentioned. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 670	Posted - 2014.11.26 18:19:20 - [178] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Comprehensive list of sinks and faucets: The above is just a list of the current faucets and sinks. This list will be updated whenever one not listed is mentioned. --Gadget Pssss.... Sov Bills. Although that might fall under NPC rent, but that makes me think offices. Sov being the single largest sink after all, it should probably get its own mention.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 82	Posted - 2014.11.26 18:27:30 - [179] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Comprehensive list of sinks and faucets: The above is just a list of the current faucets and sinks. This list will be updated whenever one not listed is mentioned. --Gadget Pssss.... Sov Bills. Although that might fall under NPC rent, but that makes me think offices. Sov being the single largest sink after all, it should probably get its own mention. Whoops. Added --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 1995	Posted - 2014.11.26 19:13:44 - [180] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Reaver Glitterstim wrote: What's fatal is altering one module without considering the impact it has on other variations of the same type. It's one thing to buff faction shield boosters because they believe the gap between faction and deadspace too great, and the gap between faction and lower too small, but it's another thing entirely to buff faction shield boosters to boost shield tanking in general. They did that because they almost nerfed links and gave shield boosters and armor reps a tiny buff in hp/s. But what happened was: CCP said logi too stronkh', nerf all ships with resistence We: But why not nerf logi instead?? CCP: buff shield boosters and armor reps by 10% and here take ancillery boosters and reps We: ..... CCP: and pls don't make duoble-xl-asb fits in the tournament, that's crazy We: ...but you gave us CCP: nah, we said it's interesting gameplay, so make it interesting We: Yep, pretty much that exactly. I'd imagine another part of it went a little something like this: "X-Large shield booster has low enough powergrid to fit on battlecruisers, no worry only armor BCs will be able to fit it and it costs too much CPU. Also the high CPU cost and low amount of slots they have means it'll never get fit on cruisers." Cyclone and Claymore start fitting X-Large shield boosters for retardedly strong defenses. "That's okay. Cyclone hits like a wet noodle and Claymore is tech 2 so it should be retardedly strong. Ignore the Sleipnir and Vulture. Now lets add a new ship under tech 3 called Lightning Templar, I mean Strategic Cruiser. It'll have cruiser mobility with battlecruiser HP and slots, and tech 2 resists and battlecruiser damage. Ignore how it's the only t2-resist ships that can fit XL shield booster and still move like an interceptor with 100MN AB while also fitting hardeners and point." People start fitting XL shield booster to Tengu and Loki and even Legion and Proteus and run around with 2000 EHP/s+ defense and the ability to withdraw from any fight that doesn't have them locked down with 2+ pirate faction webber ships. "Lets buff cruisers cause they DIAF. Ignore that they are smaller than BCs but have almost the same agility/velocity/sig and instead lets buff their PG and slots. On a completely unrelated change, lets add an ancillary shield booster that makes onboard reps super strong for a little while. It won't hurt anything because everyone either takes heavy fire for a long time or is in short engagements anyway. It especially won't make cruisers OP because ASBs cost a slot and then cruisers don't have enough room for prop+point+hardeners. We expect Merlin to rock with it (the d+ímn thing needed a purpose anyway). Forget the Gila and Worm, they probably won't be unreasonably buffed." Cruisers start getting fitted with XL ASBs and begin to actually not suck. Everything looks good by number of each ship type flown cause all the OP ships are expensive enough for t1 ship numbers to still be higher. CCP ignores number of kills by each ship. Next up: "we're going to nerf strategic cruisers finally," (huge list of cool balance changes that make the strategic cruisers actually fit with everything else post-tiericide), "and then we're going to add a totally OP module that underpowered ships like cruisers and frigates can fit to help them compete with OP BCs and T3s." And before you know it we're playing Frigates and Cruisers online. Cue start of next 12 year cycle. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk

Anthar Thebess 811	Posted - 2014.11.27 07:49:11 - [181] - Quote Bump, Post ideas.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 676	Posted - 2014.11.27 07:54:41 - [182] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Bump, Post ideas. Do not bump in features and ideas. If an idea has exhausted the willingness to discuss it then it shoudl die. Plus it's also in the forum rules. No bumping in this subsection. Also the consensus from everyone who knows what they are talking about is that we have all the isk sinks we need, as evidenced by a lack of inflation.
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 282	Posted - 2014.11.27 11:30:35 - [183] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Prof about inflation? When i started playing you could buy Dread hull for 500mil on local market, i was not living in the drone regions. Since then : - there was slight nerf to npc bounty - boost to ratting ships dps - changes to production , that both raised and lowered minerals needs to build dreadnought. Hard to say now , but i don't expect that total change will be bigger than 15% any way. Currently the same dread hull cost 2.5bil. Total Change 2bil. Good enough? Remember that this 500mil price tag was local market , and people where very happy to sell those ships on this price. No, this does not prove "inflation", and even less links it to lack of ISK sinks. Inflation is sustained increase in general price level of all goods. I could pick a product X which cost more two years ago than it does today, and that would be as irrelevant as your dread example. Seriously, you can log in, go to Forge and examine 20-30 common products, the market window allows you to view the graph for a year. If your inflation was real, every product would show a steadily rising graph. But currently, none of them do.
M1k3y Koontz Thorn Project Surely You're Joking 617	Posted - 2014.11.27 16:08:32 - [184] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: True enough and an important point, there is definitely inflation over time. The issue would be whether it is healthy or out of control. Right now my opinion would be that it's fine at the moment. I would imagine that CCP keep a very close eye on this kind of thing so not to really tic everyone off with prices rising too fast Except.... There isn't. EVE has periods of deflation also. Inflation also is not a requirement for a healthy market. That's a myth propagated by big business. Price changes can all be traced to direct game changes. Starting with the removal of the NPC sold shuttles which capped Trit prices for example. And up to the most recent massive increases in minerals for things and decrease in mineral production from the refining changes. Even Plex prices can be traced to increased demand leading to increased speculation over them. This entire thread is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist. Thank you. /thread How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Alundil Isogen 5 775	Posted - 2014.11.27 16:43:48 - [185] - Quote Isk/F&I thread starts. CCP implements a dislike button on the forums. Every dislike is 100,000 isk. CCP implements bounty feature on the forums. Billions of isk sunk into bounties and bad forum posts. The Eve economy is saved. /proposal I'm right behind you
Anthar Thebess 811	Posted - 2014.11.28 14:46:56 - [186] - Quote Alundil wrote: Isk/F&I thread starts. CCP implements a dislike button on the forums. Every dislike is 100,000 isk. CCP implements bounty feature on the forums. Billions of isk sunk into bounties and bad forum posts. The Eve economy is saved. /proposal Why not :) But make this dislike at least 1mil ISK
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 492	Posted - 2014.11.28 16:03:03 - [187] - Quote And now the ultimate isk sink proposal: My wallet. My wallet is always empty and everytime I undock and fly dangerous, people come together and form gigantic fleets to rid themselves of the biggest thread to faction warfare and nullsec alltogether - me. Since my income has been lowered I can no longer produce isk like Incursions do, so if you really are so desperate to rid yourself of your overfilled wallet, mine is empty, please donate. I accept any donations in Caldari, Gallente and Amarr ships and weapons and ammo, isk and deadspace gear. You will be listed as donator in my video once I have enough footage. signature
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 83	Posted - 2014.11.29 22:35:53 - [188] - Quote elitatwo wrote: And now the ultimate isk sink proposal: My wallet. My wallet is always empty and everytime I undock and fly dangerous, people come together and form gigantic fleets to rid themselves of the biggest thread to faction warfare and nullsec alltogether - me. Since my income has been lowered I can no longer produce isk like Incursions do, so if you really are so desperate to rid yourself of your overfilled wallet, mine is empty, please donate. I accept any donations in Caldari, Gallente and Amarr ships and weapons and ammo, isk and deadspace gear. You will be listed as donator in my video once I have enough footage. This will only be a sink if you were to leave the game with all that ISK. Is this your way of telling us goodbye? If yes, then here's 100K --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck
Vapor Ventrillian The Scope Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2014.11.29 23:08:28 - [189] - Quote hmmmm 1- addition of market effecting event eg.. -a fuel cell blew in cargo bay 8 the ensuing station fire consumed 40% of you're cargo -an asteroid hits jita station causing it to crash into a moon where a giant space dragon ate it and then threw it up...60% of all commodities and jump clones/medical clones lost 2-ship based cargo risks eg... -fuel cells explode ...taking any form of damage esp kinetic will risk the cargo -mwd can explode ect ect.. 3-astroid famines 4-a decent crackdown on illegal botting 5-a concord weakening for ganking The Evil Overlord of Scope, self elected as all good overlords should be
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 680	Posted - 2014.11.30 00:28:36 - [190] - Quote I just want my Golem to be chrome..

True Sight Deep Freeze Industries 260	Posted - 2014.11.30 20:19:53 - [191] - Quote Very Simple - Make it so that Blueprint Originals are learnt, like skills, you right click on a BPO and your character learns it, and will have it with them forever. If they were organised in a nice UI on the character sheet, thousands of players of the collector/completionist mentality (a particular prevalent demographic from what I see in eve) would run out and start spending billions on BPOs. If I could learn a blueprint and it became an item I could build on the character, I would go out and learn all the small ammos, then the medium.. then the large.. then I would learn to make all frigates.. cruisers... Simple ISK sink that encourage BPO purchasing, one of eve's largest existing ISK sinks. It would give more value to characters, give more people value to their characters and give industrialists a bigger feeling of accomplishment than simply having a cargo hold full of small containers filled with BPs that are a pain in the ass to move, organise, research etc.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 689	Posted - 2014.11.30 20:28:15 - [192] - Quote True Sight wrote: Very Simple - Make it so that Blueprint Originals are learnt, like skills, you right click on a BPO and your character learns it, and will have it with them forever. If they were organised in a nice UI on the character sheet, thousands of players of the collector/completionist mentality (a particular prevalent demographic from what I see in eve) would run out and start spending billions on BPOs. If I could learn a blueprint and it became an item I could build on the character, I would go out and learn all the small ammos, then the medium.. then the large.. then I would learn to make all frigates.. cruisers... Simple ISK sink that encourage BPO purchasing, one of eve's largest existing ISK sinks. It would give more value to characters, give more people value to their characters and give industrialists a bigger feeling of accomplishment than simply having a cargo hold full of small containers filled with BPs that are a pain in the ass to move, organise, research etc. Obviously not someone who does any capital production. Or someone that researches BP's Or someone that copies BP's Also has holes you could drive a tank through. How do you then research BPO's? How do you copy them? Does a single char need to inject 11x the BPO's to run 11 slots or does only one suffice? What happens to invention, which uses BPC's? On one hand it would mean a single titan BPO could be used to produce 11 titans at once. On the other hand, services that supply BPC packages so people can build their own ships elsewhere is awesome. TLDR: No.
Anthar Thebess 811	Posted - 2014.12.01 08:25:05 - [193] - Quote Next sov related stuff. 1. Whenever you online SBU in enemy system you have to pay 5mil to concord , but when you online this SBU on your own territory you need to bribe someone in concord office , and this cost you 100mil. 2. Each time your station or ihub exits the reinforce timer owner not only have to pump it above certain level of armor or shield, but also approach structure and pay fee for the new timer . So if your ihub went into armor reinforce and you repaired it to all 100% , you have to pay for all new timers.
Odithia Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation 71	Posted - 2014.12.01 09:04:39 - [194] - Quote Bigger market tax and broker fee. Pretty easy to adjust.
Cassius Invictus Thou shalt not kill A Nest of Vipers 105	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:27:10 - [195] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Iris Bravemount wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Remember that insurance is paid when ship dies. When you move out your smartbombing fleet and clear a heaven every 2 minutes ( including warp time ) this makes more damage to eve . 30 havens per hour , 35mil in bounty each ( not including stuff you can get from rats, and faction spawns ) I have literally no clue what you're trying to say here. That ship insurance is less damaging to eve than excessive isk flow from ratting. Dead Battleship = 100mil payout = 3 cleared sanctums. Make ratting more difficult. As a WH guy a constantly hunt ratters (when there is no good fight in WH that is) but large corps intel, local and little to non scram on rats make it almost impossible to gank someone (fortunately there are many idiots out there who are too stupid to run). So make all rats I null sec use warp disruptors maybe?
Lidia Caderu Harbingers of Chaos Inc Gentlemen's.Club 41	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:28:37 - [196] - Quote Quote: So make all rats I null sec use warp disruptors maybe? Its enough to make most lucrative rats tougher, maybe small rebalance to make all rats a bit harder to kill.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1383	Posted - 2014.12.01 16:49:25 - [197] - Quote True Sight wrote: Very Simple - Make it so that Blueprint Originals are learnt, like skills, you right click on a BPO and your character learns it, and will have it with them forever. If they were organised in a nice UI on the character sheet, thousands of players of the collector/completionist mentality (a particular prevalent demographic from what I see in eve) would run out and start spending billions on BPOs. If I could learn a blueprint and it became an item I could build on the character, I would go out and learn all the small ammos, then the medium.. then the large.. then I would learn to make all frigates.. cruisers... Simple ISK sink that encourage BPO purchasing, one of eve's largest existing ISK sinks. It would give more value to characters, give more people value to their characters and give industrialists a bigger feeling of accomplishment than simply having a cargo hold full of small containers filled with BPs that are a pain in the ass to move, organise, research etc. That would probably end up being a "nerf" to the existing isk sink as no-one would ever really have to re-buy BPOs as they could not lose them while hauling them or if a POS get's destroyed...
marVLs 680	Posted - 2014.12.01 17:20:38 - [198] - Quote WIS should be very good ISK sink (furniture, captain quarters only after buying it with monthly fee etc)
Lucrii Dei Vector Galactic Did he say Jump 156	Posted - 2014.12.01 18:23:54 - [199] - Quote *A complete reset of ALL WALLETS IN EVE.* Just to see what would happen. Gÿå The Explorer I Gÿå The Explorer II (Coming Soon!)
Cynric Cobon-Han Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:16:48 - [200] - Quote Lucrii Dei wrote: *A complete reset of ALL WALLETS IN EVE.* Just to see what would happen. In all seriousness, a regular tax on all wallets would sink isk. People may turn to hoarding commodities to avoid the tax, but that would involve buying them, the seller incurring sales tax and, when wanting to realise the value in isk, selling the commodity incurring again sales tax.



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