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Lo3d3R
Implant Liberation Front
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Posted - 2006.09.01 10:56:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Lo3d3R on 01/09/2006 11:02:00
After seeing numerous threads where people ask CCP for 0 meters jump to gates/stations or reduced jump to, I decided to convert this post to its own thread to shed a light on the non-carebear side of what this will mean for pirates/pvp'ers
Removing insta's by giving everyone a whole free map set of insta's, lowering the 'jump to' range wil ruin every pirates gameplay (and every other pvp-minded player for that matter), on the pirate side I doubt there will be any left... well maybe some hardcore belt only pirates but for that part of the pirate profession you almost need to be some sort of masochist, as there are not allot of peoples in the belts.
Pirates are a part of the game if there is not going be room for this in the future the game will end up beeing a combination of a npc grinding factory and blobwars 'pvp' in 0.0 with a touch of empire wars (wich wont work because you can't chase your opponent anyway in this case), the spice is gone. (yes also for you temporary pirates that just want to shoot that hauler in 0.3 because you can and have enough sec-status anyway, you know who you are  )
So in my not totally objective point of view this would be a very bad insta fix, the word insane and gamebreaking keep coming to mind in a future where you can't chase, or catch anyone at a gate or station. Even a compromise like lowering the 'jump to' range isnt an option the 12 ~ 16 km (about) wasnt chosen because they were such pretty numbers, they did it for a reason i hope CCP remembers this themselves also, lowering id therefore a very bad idea... sure you could chase someone but hey not much use anymore, it can be hard enough to chase someone as it is.
I hope CCP doesnt listen the people that want 'free insta's' everywhere and say no to the descruction of non-consentual pvp wich is one of the key features of EVE and whats made this game fun atleast for me and allot of others.
Also the biggest so called legit reason I red in the threads are that everyone has insta's anyway, well i can garantee you this is not true by a long shot.
I started to play this game for almost 2 years now because I could be a space pirate !!!
ahoy
___________________
Eating Chopped Bear:  |
Pestillence
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:12:00 -
[2]
You aren't a pvp'r
You are a ganker who sits out of sentry range with a cloaked alt scout on all gates where possible threats may come from.
When a threat enters local you dock / ss.
You get your kicks and/or isk from ganking people who don't have instas and use "warp to 15km" instead.
Please don't confuse this with pvp. A lot of decent pvp'rs think warp to 0 is a viable option.
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Voltron
Caldari
Black Lance
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:13:00 -
[3]
Lo3d3r is sexy!
Good point about the BM's though, whats the point in giving everyone warp to at 0? removes the risk from a game touting itself as PVP focused.
Volt
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Pestillence
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:17:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Voltron
Lo3d3r is sexy!
Good point about the BM's though, whats the point in giving everyone warp to at 0? removes the risk from a game touting itself as PVP focused.
Volt
Imagine you are fighting a 0.0 alliance (which you do a lot)
PvP happens on the gate exit, not entrance.
Do you still get pvp with this change? Yes.
Will this change make you get less pvp? Yes. (You miss out on a few eejits slowboating from 15km)
Will that lessen your game experience? Not really.
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Voltron
Caldari
Black Lance
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:25:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Pestillence
Originally by: Voltron
Lo3d3r is sexy!
Good point about the BM's though, whats the point in giving everyone warp to at 0? removes the risk from a game touting itself as PVP focused.
Volt
Imagine you are fighting a 0.0 alliance (which you do a lot)
PvP happens on the gate exit, not entrance.
Do you still get pvp with this change? Yes.
Will this change make you get less pvp? Yes. (You miss out on a few eejits slowboating from 15km)
Will that lessen your game experience? Not really.
I can see both points of view, but for my own personal reasons (which I am entitled to, just as you are to your own) I prefer to not have a "warp to at 0" option.
I remember hearing rumours that with the removal of the instas they were looking at a skill that affected how close you could warp "on target" I would very much prefer a randomized option like that than everyone having every BM in game.
Having played all but my first 2 weeks of this game in 0.0 space I know how easy it is to get around by BM, I also know how much faster BM's can make the journey (thank god), but I also know how much work goes into those BM's be it isk or making your own sets. Basically I think if you're going to be able to warp on target every time then you need to have earned it or payed for it, and training a skill fits my "earned it" criteria.
Volt
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Scorn Nusor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:28:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Scorn Nusor on 01/09/2006 11:29:44
Well, why can't they just put 4 stargates in every system (north, south, west and east) and players can choice which stargate they want to jump into. If they want to jump out of the system, players will warp to either of the four stargate and jump. Leave everything the same. Yea, I know big change. Thought I would put it out there. O, yea and delet the bms :)
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Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
Does Not Compute
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Pestillence
You aren't a pvp'r
You are a ganker who sits out of sentry range with a cloaked alt scout on all gates where possible threats may come from.
When a threat enters local you dock / ss.
You get your kicks and/or isk from ganking people who don't have instas and use "warp to 15km" instead.
Please don't confuse this with pvp. A lot of decent pvp'rs think warp to 0 is a viable option.
So that would be pirating then.. Pirating against other players... Player Vs Player  Hmm so yeah, Your wrong.
And define "threat" if a ganksquad aproaches his camped system and he's sniping why wouldn't he dock exactly... 
Not everyone lives with the 0.0 blobbers, warp to 0km option would completely screw over pirates and empire wars. Unless of course CCP allows us to use bubbles in empire.
Alliaanna
DNC Treasure Hunt !!
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Norma Stitz
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:33:00 -
[8]
The only problem with bookmarks is the sheer number of them in game. The reason for that is that they can be copied.
CCP should remove all current bookmarks from game, then let ppl make their own BMs - no copying at all.
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Voltron
Caldari
Black Lance
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Norma Stitz
The only problem with bookmarks is the sheer number of them in game. The reason for that is that they can be copied.
CCP should remove all current bookmarks from game, then let ppl make their own BMs - no copying at all.
An interesting proposition, when you say remove all BM's do you refer only to those sitting in stations awaiting delivery/copying? or all BM's currently in peoples folders as well?
As it stands I created a fair percentage of my own BM's throughout my eve career and would hate to have to redo them  .
Volt
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Zarta Blastaphart
Gallente
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:37:00 -
[10]
As I see it, those that have insta's win, those that don't get ganked. And those that get ganked are either n00b's or careless.
Happened to me very early on, and I quickly learned how to make and/or acquire BM's.
A 0m MANUAL warp to isn't going to hurt anyone, except those that prey on n00b's and the careless. All it does do is give everyone, new and old to the game, equal footing and put the BM makers (hard working as they are) and the scam artists selling **** on escrow out of business.
I do NOT advocate an automatic 0m warp to, that would be utter nonsense.
Regards
Zarta
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DrAtomic
Polytope
Ghosts of Retribution
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:37:00 -
[11]
Place bubbles on the gate, voila problem solved. You'll just have to adjust the way you do your pirating.
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The BIG Lottery |
Voltron
Caldari
Black Lance
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: DrAtomic
Place bubbles on the gate, voila problem solved. You'll just have to adjust the way you do your pirating.
The OP's issue is with lowsec pirating and the possible introduction of a "warp to at 0" option, bubbles/dictors are not allowed in lowsec unfortunately.
Volt
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Norma Stitz
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Voltron
Originally by: Norma Stitz
The only problem with bookmarks is the sheer number of them in game. The reason for that is that they can be copied.
CCP should remove all current bookmarks from game, then let ppl make their own BMs - no copying at all.
An interesting proposition, when you say remove all BM's do you refer only to those sitting in stations awaiting delivery/copying? or all BM's currently in peoples folders as well?
As it stands I created a fair percentage of my own BM's throughout my eve career and would hate to have to redo them .
Volt
Unfortunately it has gone too far already, we really need to get rid of ALL current BMs and start again.
I know how painful it would be, almost all of my BMs were self made.
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Dupac
Corsets and Carebears
Whips and Chains
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:47:00 -
[14]
Edited by: ****c on 01/09/2006 11:50:16
Originally by: Pestillence
You aren't a pvp'r
You are a ganker who sits out of sentry range with a cloaked alt scout on all gates where possible threats may come from.
When a threat enters local you dock / ss.
You get your kicks and/or isk from ganking people who don't have instas and use "warp to 15km" instead.
Please don't confuse this with pvp. A lot of decent pvp'rs think warp to 0 is a viable option.
Really? Have you conducted a poll of these "decent pvp'rs"?
I'm not a big fan of sniping but he has a perfectly legitimate play style and is entitled to defend it. If he's shooting at another player then he's a pvp'r.
Warp to 0 would damage piracy and empire wars - if you know you that the only risk is on exit from the gate this will encourage even more stab abuse, why fit for speed if you can insta warp to anywhere?
Warp to 0 may be a more viable option if it's accompanied by some hefty changes to stabs and the ability to place bubbles outside of 0.0
Originally by: Zarta Blastaphart
Oh? no bubbles in Empire? Use interceptors, you know those expensive lil' ships everyone hates to lose.
WTB sentry tanking interceptor 
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coldplasma
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Scorn Nusor
Edited by: Scorn Nusor on 01/09/2006 11:29:44
Well, why can't they just put 4 stargates in every system (north, south, west and east) and players can choice which stargate they want to jump into. If they want to jump out of the system, players will warp to either of the four stargate and jump. Leave everything the same. Yea, I know big change. Thought I would put it out there. O, yea and delet the bms :)
This isn't X3. Removing BM's without a replacement will totally ruin 0.0 travel and PVP.
____________________________
See you in 0.0 kids... |
Bill Shankly
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:54:00 -
[16]
Gate camping and killing helpless weak players is not PVP.
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Pestillence
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii
So that would be pirating then.. Pirating against other players... Player Vs Player Hmm so yeah, Your wrong.
And define "threat" if a ganksquad aproaches his camped system and he's sniping why wouldn't he dock exactly... Alliaanna
I was talking from personal experience but meh, I drop it eh Typherion?
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Anara Serraph
UK Corp
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:59:00 -
[18]
First let me just say i want instas removed, however i want instas removed because of the lag they cause and the database problems they have created and just because copying them sucks.
Now that being said there is a certain symetry to instas at the moment as Voltron said you have to earn them either by making them yourself or by buying them. But do to there downsides (lag) i dont think they can be accomodated in the game for much longer. the more people play the more bms they get, the more new players the more people with bms. By limiting bm copying CCP is stoping people lagging out systems intentionally, but also slowing down there poliferation and buying time to sort out a solution.
The warp to 0km option that alot of people are backing does seem alittle bit of a cop out no one will have to work for it, but then again the only arguments i see against it is " oh but then i cant sit outside of sentry gun range in my T2 sniper battleship 1 volleying frigs and haulers who dont have instas and as soon as someone looks like there coming for me i warp away" sorry but i dont see why you should be able to do this, for me pvp is about risks you gate snipers only risk is that mabye sombody is setting up on you with a covert ops the solution to which is to simply change you position on the gate /change gates. Ive seen other pirates who can get plent of kills camping a gate close in they have to tank the sentry's and run the risk of something coming through the gate they cant handle, but they takes the risk and gets the reward.
the skill option, while this to me sounds better than warp to 0km, i do wonder how it will work in order to replace instas the skill would have to let you warp to 0km 100% of the time at level 5 at least, otherwise people will keep their instas. the only down side is see to this is that people like me will keep using instas till the skill is maxed out, and people who dont have instas (noobies) will stay in high sec and wait till the skill is finished before entering low sec. however since the only people who are complaining are the "i wont be able to snipe without consequences crowd" the fact that only the few idiots who dont ahve the skill train to 5 will be slowboating means that even less people will be available for you too kill.
its ironic really these sniper pirates have been *****ing about instas for years yet the 2 most prominent solutions will reduce their trade, 1 to nothing the other to practically nothing.
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:11:00 -
[19]
Hehe... the sentry tanking, sniper pirates are afraid they will have to learn how to fly their ships like everyone else and actually stand a chance of getting blown up
Delete all bm's everywhere and allow the warp to 0m, then let players make their bm's but make sure you cannot copy bm's or create one within 250km of a gate or station and voila, no more problems ... sure you'll ruin the "valid play style" of the pirate snipers ...but who cares for these mosquitos on the backside of humanity |
Noluck Ned
FATAL REVELATIONS
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:28:00 -
[20]
The only thing everyone can agree on is that something HAS to be done about the lag creation.
Again I will reiterate my point from the many threads on this matter.
There is no difference between a warp to at 0km option and an instajump BM.
Are you honestly trying to tell me that using an insta is an I-Win button? People die in EVE whether they have instas or not. The tiny safety advantage that a set gives a BS pilot is counterbalanced by the BS being unable to instawarp on the other side of the gate.
Two Snipers in lowsec, If set up correctly with Sensor boosters, can still insta lock and pop almost any t1 ship on the jump in side.
I respect your choice of playstyle, however I ask you to respect the rest of us wanting to address the lag caused by this semi broken game mechanic. But as things stand now it can only get worse, the playerbase growing means more people will be using Bookmarks every day and that causes more lag ect ect ect.
0km warp in is not the ultimate cure all, but if say 15km warp in became the norm you would be very bored at that gate of yours because almost nobody would haul anything anywhere without a serious escort and scouts. As things stand now, many people are getting kills BECAUSE of instas, mainly because anyone putting their complete faith in an insta set to keep them out of trouble is a fool. People take more chances because of their percieved safety. That means fatter loot for the succesful pilot.
You are in what appears to be a pirate CORP. Get your gang togther and tank the damn sentries while your snipers lay down the hurt. Or 3 guys in cheap ass disposable friggies just to get a web/points on anyone jumping in. See I can think of two ways around everyone having instas and thats just off the top off my head. Be creative...innovate.
Originally by: Posidrive
So technically being a pirate is't quite as easy as I thought after reading this guide.
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hUssmann
Caldari
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zarta Blastaphart
Oh? no bubbles in Empire? Use interceptors, you know those expensive lil' ships everyone hates to lose.
Wow it's really that easy? Now add sentries to 0.0 gates and you have what we have.
[Captain obvious mode]You can't tank up to 480 DPS from sentries in an interceptor [/Captain obvious mode]
If i take sentries in my BS long enough to kill you the sentries are too weak, i can't snipe cause it's against corp policy as well as against the stuff i stand for, so what do you suggest? Deploy bubbles? Nope. Oh i know.
Tank sentries in an interceptor
Right.
___________________________
Free wigs/hair for caldari baldies, Imaran get in line!
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Tobias Sjodin
Caldari
Ore Mongers
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:41:00 -
[22]
Agreed with the OP.
[they solved the wcs-prob] |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Aerial Boundaries Inc.
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:42:00 -
[23]
This point of view has been brought up many times, and is equally stupid every time.
Essentially the argument is that piracy is dead with the warp to 0km option.
What seems to be forgotten is that we already have this option, except that it is implemented in the form of instas.
The warp to 0km option is just instas done without the DB overhead.
To spell it out even more clearly:
Instas=0km Warp
And
0km Warp=Instas
Thus, if the warp to 0km option will
a) Kill the game
b) Kill piracy
c) Do anything else
Then:
a) The game is already dead ()
b) Piracy is already dead ()
c) The 'anything else' is already done.
Of course, some will argue that instas have already killed the game and/or piracy.
That can be debated.
What cannot be debated is a 0km Warp option having any effect on the game. It won't.
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:49:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
This point of view has been brought up many times, and is equally stupid every time.
Essentially the argument is that piracy is dead with the warp to 0km option.
What seems to be forgotten is that we already have this option, except that it is implemented in the form of instas.
The warp to 0km option is just instas done without the DB overhead.
To spell it out even more clearly:
Instas=0km Warp
And
0km Warp=Instas
Thus, if the warp to 0km option will
a) Kill the game
b) Kill piracy
c) Do anything else
Then:
a) The game is already dead ()
b) Piracy is already dead ()
c) The 'anything else' is already done.
Of course, some will argue that instas have already killed the game and/or piracy.
That can be debated.
What cannot be debated is a 0km Warp option having any effect on the game. It won't.
Ding.... Crumplecorn wins all the nerf bm's threads |
Katrana Fordring
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:52:00 -
[25]
I understand the OP's concern but I don't necessarily agree that PvP will die if BMs are removed. I also don't agree that what he described is real PvP.
For example, I had to fly to 0.3 space to drop some blueprints off for ME research. On my way back home, my shuttle was targeted by someone from 175km and nearly destroyed by the time I jumped thru the gate. Now exactly what kind of PvP is it to attack a crappy shuttle from that far out? That would be like me going to the local pre-school, kicking the crap out of the kids and then saying "look how cool I am, Johnny couldn't get to the door in time".
Anyway, I don't think BMs need to be removed. A simple solution would be for CCP to create an assembly line in a factory for BM copying. That way players can queue their copying and the server can handle it during downtime or something.
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Radioactive Babe
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:57:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Katrana Fordring
That would be like me going to the local pre-school, kicking the crap out of the kids and then saying "look how cool I am, Johnny couldn't get to the door in time".
hehehehe...
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Patch86
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Posted - 2006.09.01 13:03:00 -
[27]
I've suggested it plenty of times before, so might aswell type it again.
I hate Instas. I don't pirate (never blown up a single person who wasn't at war, had low standings with me, [insert other good reason here]). I do, however, PvP in 0.0 against our ever changing list of war targets. Part of the game mechanics is that ships have different speeds- little frigs go fast, big BS's trundle along slow and vulnerable. This is represented in game, not by an ever so slightly different warp speed, but by the fact the last 15km has to be flown sub-light speed. This means that people chasing you, people blocking the gates, and other such nasties havea chance to catch up with you if they're in the right ship to do so (no frigate I've seen ever got chased down by a BS). Instas, therefor, are just cheating your way around a game mechanic. I use instas myself (who doesn't?) but I'd much rather that no one could.
My solution: keep BMs in the game (they're handy for safe spots, POS locations, whatever). But, instead of having you always warp 15km away from your warp in target in the direction you've come from, have it so you warp in at 15km away in any random direction. That is, I warp to a stargate, I might be 15km in front of it, or 15km past it, or 15km above it, or whatever. That Insta you've made exactly 15km past a gate would be just as likely to deposit you 30km from the gate as 1km. Result- death of Instas, BMs still perfectly useful for their original purposes, you have to fly 15km sub-light, just as you always should.
Increased travel times? The universe is big, moving a freighter the bredth of the galaxy shouldn't only take an hour. And with jump clones, you've got the option of instant travel long distance, aslong as you don't want to take anything with you. You want to fly fast, buy an interceptor.
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Alys
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.09.01 13:09:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Voltron
I can see both points of view, but for my own personal reasons (which I am entitled to, just as you are to your own) I prefer to not have a "warp to at 0" option.
I think we can live with that.
Everyone else gets a "warp to at 0" option. Voltron doesn't.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.09.01 13:12:00 -
[29]
I'm in favour of the warp at zero option as long as the autopilot doesn't use it. It's easy to explain in RP terms as a safety factor and it means that pirates can still pray on afk pilots and quite a lot of people will still fly afk.
People ganking on the approach to a gate will suffer a little bit..but not that much IMO. Anyone with any sense carrying precious cargo will already be using instas so no change there. The only people vulnerable to gankers on approach at the moment are noobs and TBH I don't think they should be ganked as it can be a game destroying experience.
This might eevn help gankers to an extent. It may mean that most players pass through the gate so quickly that they don't notice the ebil ganker and fail to issue a warning in local or corp chat. It also saves gankers from wasting shots on ships that can survive to tell the tale or drawing the wrath of sentries for no good reason. You end up with a more considered ambush and can pick and choose your targets.
I'm no gate ganker but at present you presumably have to go equipped to tank sentries and you can end up under fire without destroying your target. With this method such 'false positives' will be less likely. You can lurk quietly waiting to fire a single strike at the perfect target. I've never tried but could it perhaps mean that someone could lurk cloaked then only decloak when they finally see something worthy of the risk.
If only afk pilots can be attacked on approach then you have more time to scan their cargo because they won't even be using MWD/AB. It neatly divides the world into victims and people that are paying attention.
On the other side of the gate of course it's business as usual.
So this gets my vote:Delete every BM within range of a gate and I suppose the same for stations.
--
(Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Lucre
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.01 13:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Patch86
Part of the game mechanics is that ships have different speeds- little frigs go fast, big BS's trundle along slow and vulnerable. This is represented in game, not by an ever so slightly different warp speed, but by the fact the last 15km has to be flown sub-light speed.
So maybe the warp speeds should be more different? Why should all frigates fly at 3 au - let the fast ones do 5, the slow ones do 2.5. Let overdrive modules affect warp speed (distinguish them from nanos) - plates and extenders too. And then the speed differential in travel is preserved - or rather reintroduced since it vanished when people started using instas.
There is an issue with its destroying ganking on outbound gates. And whilst part of me would regard that loss with equanimity, something does need to be done to make Empire wars/piracy still viable options. Which in effect means being able to use bubbles or some kind of selective bubbles in Empire.
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