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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
914
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Posted - 2014.11.27 19:50:26 -
[1] - Quote
These things need changes, and I think most of the community knows it.
Why are you not addressing these and instead doing 2% changes to scorch range? Why are you so scared to even talk about the stupidity in the game at the moment that is the Ishtar? Why do you think 250mm rails out-damaging and out-ranging all the alternatives is ok? Why do heavy missiles apply less damage than a flight of light drones?
I'm tired of **** posting in all the meaningless "balance" threads with irrelevant changes and just want to see some actual meaningful changes for once in my goddamn life.
Some simple tweaks that would make everyone happy are nerfs to 250mm damage, buffs to heavy missile application (its damage can remain pathetic if you really want) and massive fitting reductions for the Ishtar as well as a bandwidth reduction to 100mb.
Hey maybe those aren't the answers but at least I'm trying, it really feels like development doesn't care about balance at this stage when the patch involves 2% changes to scorch range while the Ishtar runs rampant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Warde Guildencrantz
Tundragon Cynosural Field Theory.
1132
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Posted - 2014.11.27 19:56:10 -
[2] - Quote
rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.
heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.
TunDraGon Director ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~
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My ship fits
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Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2557
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:02:07 -
[3] - Quote
Ishtars, they say that drones don't have a size category but that mentality needs to change. Cruiser and Battlecruiser drone ships need to be balanced using medium drones not large drones.
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
526
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:02:30 -
[4] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.
heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.
Neither of these statements are true.
Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke.
I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hills bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
914
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:03:38 -
[5] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.
heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.
Damage choice doesn't end up mattering that much when the damage output is so high - and their tracking is in fact not that bad due to the fact that they are cruiser weapons and thus have small turret signature resolution and end up tracking much much better than their battleship equivalent.
Heavies do not have obscene projection or reasonable damage, and I don't know how you can say either of those things just after talking about rails.
Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Lugh Crow-Slave
234
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:07:46 -
[6] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.
heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes.
Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
916
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:09:57 -
[7] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:afkalt wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.
heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter
I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
679
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:21:13 -
[8] - Quote
Capqu wrote: I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you.
If turrets need to worry about tracking, the least missiles should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a TP. Not a massive bar FFS. |
Arronicus
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1309
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:25:51 -
[9] - Quote
Heavies do just fine when you apply that whole 'teamwork' thing. Also rails aren't OP, they're just on the side of being the best medium turret right now. But yes, we know, ishtars are overused. The sooner CCP removes the ability to delegate sentry drones, the sooner we can move on a little. |
El Space Mariachi
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
182
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:27:12 -
[10] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:afkalt wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.
heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter
that's a key difference, heavies will apply a decent (I still wouldn't say they do it exceedingly well) portion of their abysmally low raw damage potential when paired with outside help. Railguns will benefit quite a significant amount when helped by webs to hit a moving target but it's hardly essential to them to hit it, and they certainly don't need a god damned EWAR module to apply full damage to a stationary ship of a similar sig to them, something that can't be said for heavy missile boats. HMLs are single worst weapon system in the game, even worse than medium autocannons.
The supposed pros of heavy missiles ; "guaranteed" damage at whatever level (assuming HMLs can catch up to the target), selectable damage type (when many of the hulls they can be used on will punish you for not using kinetic because they only have a hull bonus for scourge), good range (compared to competitors far inferior, are all outweighed by the cons : anaemic DPS even at best and poor application which is mitigated further if the target sneezes in any direction and doesn't just sit still, and excessive vulnerability to smartbombs (shared with cruises and arguably light missiles but more apparent on Cruise/HML boats).
HMLs are straight inferior at the moment to all of their competitors both on paper and in a realistic scenario and the playerbase is demonstrating their understanding of this by not ******* using them in pvp, but Fozzie still doggedly sticks to the stance that because they were utterly broken once back when every idiot had a HML drake they don't ever deserve to be viable, let alone competitive.
Anhenka wrote:
If turrets need to worry about tracking, the least missiles should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a TP. Not a massive bar FFS.
If missiles need to worry about explosion velocity and explosion radius, the least railguns should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a web. Not a massive bar FFS.
gay gamers for jesus
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2006
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:32:38 -
[11] - Quote
Capqu wrote: Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage.
Careful what you're saying here
unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do.
nerf tengu?
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
917
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:32:43 -
[12] - Quote
Arronicus wrote:Heavies do just fine when you apply that whole 'teamwork' thing. Also rails aren't OP, they're just on the side of being the best medium turret right now. But yes, we know, ishtars are overused. The sooner CCP removes the ability to delegate sentry drones, the sooner we can move on a little.
Delegation honestly hasn't been an issue for the Ishtar pretty much ever. You're wrong about heavies doing "just fine". Even if you manage to apply their paper dps to a target, it is still lower than the alternatives, delayed and destroyable. Having to work harder for less is not balance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
910
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:32:48 -
[13] - Quote
Also make battlecruisers not suck thx |
El Space Mariachi
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
182
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:36:23 -
[14] - Quote
BadAssMcKill wrote:Also make battlecruisers not suck thx
lets be realistic
gay gamers for jesus
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F3X5ON
Zero Fun Allowed
22
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:38:45 -
[15] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Capqu wrote: I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you.
If turrets need to worry about tracking, the least missiles should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a TP. Not a massive bar FFS.
let me bring a rapier to paint stuff for my 300dps hml tengu, instead of just bringing 2 ishtars. |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
917
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Posted - 2014.11.27 20:43:25 -
[16] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Capqu wrote: Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage.
Careful what you're saying here unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do. nerf tengu?
What? Thats just a straight up lie so okay. Unbonused ship used (Typhoon).
Range: http://puu.sh/d7Wji/99ea7590a3.png
Application: http://puu.sh/d7Wl7/e7a79f690c.png Target used was an Ishtar burning at 45 degrees. This is WITHOUT any tracking mods for the railguns [which the missiles cannot have], and they are already better at every range over 15km.
Again, don't forget that missiles deal delayed, destroyable damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1716
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Posted - 2014.11.27 21:20:20 -
[17] - Quote
It's almost like they are releasing a new small laser using ship, so taking the opportunity to also do some tuning touches to small lasers along side the release of said ship. |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
918
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Posted - 2014.11.27 21:32:34 -
[18] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:It's almost like they are releasing a new small laser using ship, so taking the opportunity to also do some tuning touches to small lasers along side the release of said ship.
In the same vein that new ship is going to get zonked by any Ishtar that gives it a glance, why not take this opportunity to do the right thing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
527
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Posted - 2014.11.27 21:48:40 -
[19] - Quote
Capqu wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:afkalt wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.
heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you.
TIL painters do nothing for guns.....
Medium rails SMOKE HML at sub 50km ranges. Anything passed that and travel time kills you. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
527
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Posted - 2014.11.27 21:56:23 -
[20] - Quote
Capqu wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:afkalt wrote:Warde Guildencrantz wrote:rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.
heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you.
TIL painters do nothing for guns.....
Medium rails SMOKE HML at sub 50km ranges. Anything passed that and travel time kills you. I've posted graphs of this before. |
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Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
310
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Posted - 2014.11.27 22:20:32 -
[21] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness.
weakness in tracking is directly mitigated by their increased range. Being able to reduce rad/s with extreme range or by using tracking scripts where arty or beams would need optimal to achieve the same range pretty much negates the "disadvantage" of bad tracking. Damage selectability isn't nearly that big of deal, since every other weapon system is more-or-less subject to similar restrictions (beams obviously, Tremor is kin/exp, most long range missile ships are only bonused for kinetic damage, etc.) and everyone plugs their resist holes anyway
Quote:heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage.
wanna have your mind=blown??
here goes:
heavy missiles were never very OP.
The big clue is that they were only widely used on two hulls: tengus and drakes (funny how this "OP" weapon system never manifested in the popularity of Cerbs, or Caracals, or Nighthawks). Anyway, Tengus because they're an intrinsically powerful hull, and are currently flexing that power with the oh-so-balanced 250mm railguns, and Drakes mostly because they're mindless and very newbie friendly. Low-SP corps could get all their guys in drakes in a few weeks and have a halfway-decent fleet, while their line members could happily rat in their purger-rigged drakes to fund PVP.
Outside of that, blob drakes were a one-trick counter to the AHACs of the day, and even then didn't work very well. Furthermore they got completely slaughtered by battleships, namely Hellcats, were easily countered by firewalls (just like Tengus), and were even more vulnerable to bombing than BS are, having nearly the same sig but about 2/3rds the EHP.
In small gangs, drakes were either used as point-and-click low DPS ships for newbies to fly, or as decent kiting ships that could fit a tank, two webs, and a point. For the former, they were terrible and worse than most other BCs, and for kiting they were made completely obsolete by the introduction of tier3 BCs.
The ultimate irony is that by the time CCP got around to nerfing HMLs and especially Drakes the metagame had already moved onto bigger and better things, yet out-of-the-loop scrublords on EVE-O are still bleating on about how supposedly broken they were.
But hey you're a step ahead of CCP; at least you recognize HMLs suck.
watch me be a scurb and get owned
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Liam Inkuras
Mafia Redux
1347
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Posted - 2014.11.27 22:23:52 -
[22] - Quote
"I may have over buffed Medium Rails a little" - CCP Rise, May 2nd 2014
I wear my goggles at night.
Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
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Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
311
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Posted - 2014.11.27 22:33:41 -
[23] - Quote
anyway while we're living in a fantasy world where CCP actually takes an interest in the balance of their game, i've compiled an abridged list of things that are a complete joke in PVP for the highly-competent balance wizards of Crowd Control Productions to consider:
- Medium autocannons
- Hurricanes
- Drakes
- Harbingers
- Prophecies
- Brutixes
- Heavy missiles
- Cruise missiles
- Torpedoes
- Pretty much every tech 1 battleship, but especially the Raven and Whyphoon (named because why would you fly one??)
- Target spectrum breakers (i forgot these existed for the better part of a year)
- Pilgrims
- Every sansha ship
- Cynabals
- Dragoons
- Coraxes
- Exequror NIs
- Nighthawks
while we're at it, whatever genius thought it was a good idea to give bubble immunity to interceptors needs his brain examined, maybe even replaced
watch me be a scurb and get owned
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
926
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Posted - 2014.11.27 22:48:56 -
[24] - Quote
I wanna draw more attention to this.
Unbonused medium rails with absolute worst case damage ammo [Iron], outdpsing heavy missiles significantly across the range of engagement. The railgun can be loaded with much higher dps ammo with equivalent or better tracking at any range the heavies can hit for an even more ridiculous looking graph, not to mention that rails damage application can be augmented by modules where heavy missile cannot. Railgun damage applies instantly, missile damage is delayed. Railgun damage cannot be destroyed, missiles can be smartbombed.
How is that considered balanced?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
926
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Posted - 2014.11.27 22:51:42 -
[25] - Quote
I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Gorski Car
423
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Posted - 2014.11.27 22:58:06 -
[26] - Quote
oy vey my friend you forgot medium autocannons
Collect this post
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
681
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Posted - 2014.11.27 22:59:22 -
[27] - Quote
Capqu wrote:I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are
That's because we are so damn tired of people whining about it, we don't feel a need to get into an argument about it for the one thousandth time.
Was Ishtar highly OP before the drone assist, nerfs, the sentry drone changes, and the reduction of the hull bonus? Sure.
Is it still OP? I personally think not, that it's mainly people too damn lazy to fly the right ships in a way that can counter them instead of flying their favorite ship and then whining that since an Ishtar is a hard counter to the ships that they like, it needs to be nerfed.
Remember vagabonds back 3-4 years ago? People whining about them constantly! "Whine whine vagabonds running through my gatecamps, outrunning my fleets, killing my ceptors which are the only thing that can catch them, vagabonds online, whine whine whine!
When the solution was always to fly something besides only ever Drakes or Hurricane. I mean christ on a crutch, it's the same thing now. People don't want to fly the ships that kill ishtars fairly easily, so they whine that they must be OP and in need of nerfs. |
Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
927
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Posted - 2014.11.27 23:02:52 -
[28] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:Capqu wrote:I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are That's because we are so damn tired of people whining about it, we don't feel a need to get into an argument about it for the one thousandth time. Was Ishtar highly OP before the drone assist, nerfs, the sentry drone changes, and the reduction of the hull bonus? Sure. Is it still OP? I personally think not, that it's mainly people too damn lazy to fly the right ships in a way that can counter them instead of flying their favorite ship and then whining that since an Ishtar is a hard counter to the ships that they like, it needs to be nerfed. Remember vagabonds back 3-4 years ago? People whining about them constantly! "Whine whine vagabonds running through my gatecamps, outrunning my fleets, killing my ceptors, nothing else can catch them, whine whine whine! When the solution was always to fly something besides only ever Drakes or Hurricane. I mean christ on a crutch, it's the same thing now. People don't want to fly the ships that kill ishtars fairly easily, so they whine that they must be OP and in need of nerfs.
Yeah you're right, I think Ishtars are overpowered because I only fly my favourite ships [Ishtars]...
You can't trick me CCP Rise, I know that's you on an alt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Capqu
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
927
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Posted - 2014.11.27 23:04:23 -
[29] - Quote
Gorski Car wrote:oy vey my friend you forgot medium autocannons
People have PTSD from when Cynabals/Hurricanes were good and will never admit that medium autocannons are trash now. It's a lost cause Gorksi, there is no point in trying - she's gone. If you really loved her, let her go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2007
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Posted - 2014.11.27 23:05:09 -
[30] - Quote
Capqu wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Capqu wrote: Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage.
Careful what you're saying here unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do. nerf tengu? What? Thats just a straight up lie so okay. Unbonused ship used (Typhoon). Range: http://puu.sh/d7Wji/99ea7590a3.png Application: http://puu.sh/d7Wl7/e7a79f690c.png Target used was an Ishtar burning at 45 degrees. This is WITHOUT any tracking mods for the railguns [which the missiles cannot have], and they are already better at every range over 15km. Again, don't forget that missiles deal delayed, destroyable damage.
im not getting that...
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
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